Cabin Sole Refinishing

[ebb]

Al,
Thanks for the 'Ultimate Sole' link.
I like the idea of supporting small business whenever possible.
In an age where international supergiant retailers swing on Wall Street and change peoples lives, life styles, and values, going with small entrepreneurial  enterprises helps to keep it local and real.  Using the internet it's all an illusion but it feels better to me.  

The coating is a relatively low VOC urethane,  I couldn't find any solids vs solvents percentages.  Didn't wade thru the application guidelines but ease of maintenance (another coat later, shelf life, etc.) would be on the list.  Not committing an expensive brush to applying it is also a big plus.

Ulimate Marine  has a '15pc Nesting Stainless Cookware' set for $100, plus shipping. "All fits in a cubic foot."  And a '13 cup s.s. Airpot' for $70.  You hear of these insulated
pump flask dispensers used aboard small sailboats because you can keep water or drinks hot for hours wthout firing up the stove.  Don't know if the price is right?  Anybody buying their sweet marina babe a present this year
let us know what you think of the stuff.

In 338, when I get deep into her sole I'll go with the Ulimate.

[Al Lorman]

Ebb:

I had an interesting experience at the Annapolis Boat Show this year which is a neat riff on your comments about supporting small business and the Internet.  As a satisfied Utimate Sole user, I stopped to chat with one of the men at the Ultimate Sole booth and he turned out to be one of the owners (but not the technical guy).  When I introduced myself, he asked me if I had a Sabre.  I said that I used to, but no longer.  He told me that he owns a Sabre and remembered my name from my posts on the Sabre bulletin board (which I still belong to).  So, courtesy of the Internet, I had bought something from someone who knew of my existence.  

Al

[commanderpete]

If I had to do it over again, I would have sealed the side edges of the cabin sole with epoxy.

Reattaching the teak 1/4 round moldings on the side was a bit difficult. I couldn't find anything marine grade, so I tacked them back using brass brads. They're rotting out, naturally. It was hard to hammer the brads through the teak, and the laminate behind it, without bending them. So you might want to think of something better.

For my next aggravation, lets go under the cabin sole.

Beneath the plywood there are three blocks of what I think is called pressboard/chipboard/flakeboard. Its junk. Little pieces flake off and wind up in the bilge. Could potentially clog the bilge pump. It really sheds if you touch it.

Anybody else have this?

I thought about slathering epoxy on it, but that won't work.

Maybe I'll cover the underside with a sheet of something and screw it in.

Don't want to try removing it, its too difficult working under there. Can't see what you're doing and tools don't fit.

[ebb]

Maybe you could send in the little people
who took that incredible picture!


Could make a sanding paddle out of a 1/4" thin batten with some 40/60 grit on the business end and try to smooth that hanging  hairy stuff a little.   Then try brushing on some of smith's cpes to seal it.  Like maybe cut a two inch throwawy bristle brush off at the metal band and attach it sticking up. on end, to a batten.  Try painting to seal the old particle board.   Any drips/puddles can be wiped up or spread around on the ballast.

Or if you can reach in there with hand and arm, I'd probably soak a small terry towel in any kind of thin epoxy and just press it up onto the underside until it gets good and wet.  Quicker than the brush thing.

Scuse me for adding: but it's better to avoid Mr Smith's lethal brew and make your own using laminating epoxy thinned sparingly with xylene.  Hold yer breath anyway!

[Hull376]

I replaced the sole three years ago, but some water from a drip found its way  underneath the plywood and started dry rot.  This stuff is thin, doesn't take much to ruin it.  So, I have extra half piece of teak/holly plywood and the template, so recutting a new piece will be a piece of cake.  But......... what do the technical wizards think about the proper way to install so won't happen again? Thickened epoxy with some screws to make sure no voids around the edges? Does it matter if the stuff can't be removed in the future without blowing up the boat?  Ha!

[ebb]

Poisonally, I don't think epoxy is the end all ultimate be all glue.  I mean it's managable - arguably easier than 5200 or silicone glued stuff to evacuate in a remodel.  Whatz yer other choice?.... contact cement?  Who needs to breathe those volitiles?
Besides with epoxy you can seal the edges this time, where the rot took holt.  
 
As you might have seen elsewhere, I'm a firm believer in first prepping the piece and the work surface with plain or even slightly thinned epoxy.  Then the fumed silica thickened 'glue'.  A two stage process.  No wait - put the liquid on, wipe it off,  both surfaces - put the gel on (use a small toothed metal applicator to get a fast even coat.)  Put the gel on both pieces.  Using the wide applicator spans any depressions (which you might have after removing the old sole) so you can mate two level surfaces to end up with no voids.

Would move it around a little if I could, instead of just dropping it in place.  Would lean on it to look for squeeze out, which is a good thing.  Would lay a piece of dead flat 3/4" ply, nearly the same size, on top with some weight on it.  Bend some battens from the roof to the ply for pressure - bendy battens will probably provide firm but not too fierce pressure that jamming in straight pieces would do.   Stand on it with a frosty bottle.  When it stops oozing you know you did good.  Wipe the ooze away with paper towels.  Clean up with a towel wet with alcohol - not from the frosty bottle.

You can seal and fair both surfaces as above, but instead of gel go with contact cement.  Don't have to let the sealer totally set.  Has to be 'going off' tho.   Imho all work we do on a boat is for the poor guy next down the line.  Contact rubber may be a friendlier way to go!  Big attic fan and No Standing Around.  Get the hell out of there.

The main thing is to seal all wood surfaces and endgrain with epoxy.  Total encapsulation is the target.  You can't get total, you only get close.  If you are going to varnish the teak and holly top you could use CPES* (or your own) as a primer, but do the piece outside the boat, all eight sides.  No mo rot.  

Just my opinion.
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Either method will work if in hot weather you don't have time.  Just have the first coat go off - you've accomplished the important sealing part.  Then do the gel thing or the cement thing.  Probably get a good bond next day even without doing a sanding prep.
On these hot days been putting my (100% solids, no solvent) epoxy gallon cans in the fridge over night, mixing them cold.  Still goes off fast over 70degrees, but you get a little extra time for picky jobs.
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*From Smith's own literature - the secret to using an epoxy sealer (under varnish) is to soak the mahogany or teak, let it sit until it is almost setting up, then wipe it off with a solvent.  Smith's wants you to use one of their nasty's, but, with  throw-away terry cloths and denatured alcohol, you can scrub off any film, leaving the wood surface ready for only a light sanding.  When dry you have a wood surface that has a penetrated seal IN it.  The secret is to remove any film or puddling of the sealer so that your varnish is applied to wood rather than sealer.

[Hull376]

Thanks, ebb.  Helpful as you always are!!  I wish I'd done this right the first time, but........ practice makes perfect.  Maybe this time I can try out "Ultimate Sole."  With temps hitting 90's in Galveston Bay area, looks like I'll have to put the epoxy in the FREEZER before using.  You have to drink the long-necks fast this time of year---- or cry in warm beer.

[cbs]

I am starting to fefinish#272 cabin sole as well, mine appears to to have never been cared for quite dark as it stands now but not too stained , i will send some pics as well, yours looks really good , hope i will have similar success!

[Hull376]

ebb,
Its been done,  no turning back.  I never want to have to  do this again while I own the boat, so did the diluted epoxy thing to a new sole cutout.  Even wiped the floor  down with the  cat and dog killing antifreeze  to kill any third kingdom of life spores, then plastered down the new sole  on a generous helping of thickened epoxy.  I weighted it  all  down waiting for it  to  kick.  Had to grab some extra bricks  at the last minute to get it all firmly pressed  down.  If I  had  to do it again, I'd put in some very small (2x or 4x) screws in which could be removed and filled  in later.  Would be a  lot easier than weighting it  down.  You know, the  Iberian workers  didn't care much about how lever the  floor on 376 was--- the  old old sole was  just  goobered  in place with black  rubber cement (lasted for the first 40 years).  

There are still a  few  spots  along the edges where  there is  a  small gap.  I'm going to fill those in so no place along the  edges for any water to collect, although  I can't see that  it would do harm to  this waterproof  reinstallation.  But maybe prevent a spot for mold or other science experiments to start evolving.  They'd  have  to love  to eat epoxy though.

[ebb]

Creating an habitat for anaerobic bacteria to thrive
is one of the unaddressed issues of epoxy encapsulation.

To prevent salmonella, haddock spruge and nodding crab
from breeding you may find it advisable to create openings
in the cockpit sole so that normal and more acceptable
bacteria, algae, funguys and the like will be more at home.

This is done by taking a small nail and driving it at least
half (1/2) way into the newly varnished teak and holly over
most of the surface -  this not only  provides traction
but aeration and breathability  to your beautibul hard won project. :rolleyes:

Con grats!

[Commander 147]

I bought a sheet of teak and holly for my cabin sole in Destiny. What do you guys recommend for finishing it?
 
Also I read someplace where finishing all sides top, bottom and edges is a good thing to help it keep from wicking up water that might get below it.
 
Thoughts?

[Ariel 109]

A good question.  Since teak is not known for holding coated finishes well I recommend going with an lightly applied oil finish.  The nice thing about raw teak is that it's somewhat anti-skid.  And a coated finish is just going to get scratched up.  But if you must there's good old polyurethane.      

The "original" teak cabin sole on my Ariel I don't think has every been treated with a finish.  A good scrubbing with a stiff brush and some Murphy's Oil Soap I need to do one day.

[ebb]

Jerry,
Plywood, don't know what you got there but the top veneer is probably very thin.
So maybe it should be finished/protected with something you are not going
 to remove when it comes time to do it again.

I personally would seal the whole sheet (after fitting) on all sides  with a NON-BLUSHING laminating (low viscosity) epoxy, two coats minimum.*
Then sand the epoxy on top of the sheet until you get an epoxy surface that looks smooth, 220.  You may need more epoxy coats.
Then do a polyurethane clear for a hard surface - or LeTonkinois, a tough traditional varnish for a warm look..
Either one, put  enough coats on so that when you have to sand the sole to renew
you won't ever sand thru to the wood veneer.
The concept is not just to seal surfaces with epoxy but to build up the surfaces you are going to varnish  with epoxy to get an absolutely flat smooth base.  I've posted somewhere here a lead to a paper by a guy whose business is to create the final glassy finishes for concours chriscraft presentations and the like.  This is his method, filtered thru moi.

Either coating can be scuffed, the slippery shine removed if you wish, with ScotchBrite Pad.
Hardware stores carry a range of these pads, the green one from the grocery store is the one to try first.  (Knock the tops off of micro bubbles and dust craters with sharp new paper  don't scratch the surface if you use 100, sand to smooth with 220 between coats.  Don't remove your last coat.)

*There is nothing wrong with CPES penetrating epoxy sealer as the first coat except that it is very expensive and full of nasty solvents.  Tou cannot build up thickness with it,  it'll go gummy if you try.
I'm a fan of laminating epoxy for nearly every job on the boat.
Mixing up a regular batch and adding a little xylene (watch out, this is lethal stuff too) to thin it will make an excellent sealer.  You probably need only a single thinned coat on the bottom of the ply.
And there isn't  much 'penetrating' to do on the top T&H veneer.  So one thinned, one unthinned as a filler.  Any doubts on too much epoxy draw a pliable green spatula over the surface to remove extra material and spread more evenly.   After sanding to get a smooth surface, you may have to do it again.
But this can be done outside befor install - the whole epoxy sealing process.  Edges are real thirsty.

[I'm convinced that ALL our wood on or in the boat can be sealed and prepped using 100% solids (NO solvent)  laminating epoxy.  (Add solvent ONLY to the first soaking in coat.)  Build up coats and sand until a perfectly smooth epoxy surface is created.  Then lay on the finish.  Varnish or p.urethane.

You will never have delaminating problems with the ply if done this way.
And PRE-protecting the T&H befor final glitzy coats will make it easy to maintain.
ALL IMCO  !!!!
goodluck......and photos of course!:cool:
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later edit
Comment on heating epoxy to get it runny to soak in.  
Well, why not.  Need a simple method to heat the mix AND you might find it setting up befor you get it on the wood.

What I have found myself doing when not wanting to use xylene (x. IS one of the bad benzene ring ,read carcinogen, solvents)  is to
SCRUB the first undiluted coat vigorously into the dry wood surface, destroying the throwaway brush!
Then immediately take a big rag and SCRUB the surface as dry as you can make it.
Wipe off all anaomolies: brush hairs, splinters, bits of cloth, whatever, puddles.  Let it set.  Most wood and plywood will be hairy.  Sand this surface smooth, by removing just the stand up stuff.  It'll sand smooth quickly.  Then recoat with full strength.  These epoxy coats sand easily in my experience....especially with the ocillating disk sander.

[mbd]

I seem to remember reading in the West System manuals (sorry Ebb, I know you're not a fan.) that heating up the material helps with absorbing that first coat of epoxy. It seems like baking a few hours in the Florida sun would be ideal for this.  Also warming the resin helps thin it, but I don't think Jerry needs any help with that.

[Commander 147]

I guess I'm in the same camp as Ebb about sealing wood especially down here in hot humid Florida. And sealing all sides makes a lot of sense to me also. You never know when a leak could spring up that could cause water all over the floor. The water can certainly seep under the plywood and stay there for some time before it drys out. I think I will give Ebb's process a go.
 
Mike I have some "tropical" hardener for my Raka epoxy that dries really slow and Raka's resin # 127 is already a pretty thin resin for easy wet outs. So a combination of the slow hardener and the thin resin should seep in pretty good here.
 
BTW Practical Sailor is going to do a test on epoxies soon and when I saw they were going to do that I sent them an e-mail to see if they would include Raka epoxy in the test. They published my e-mail in the last issue and replied that they would. It will be interesting to see how it compares.