jib track placement

[commanderpete]

Had the same problem as Dan. The holes in my old Schaefer track didn't quite line up with the holes in my new Schaefer track. Both were supposedly 4" on center. Strange.

My track was deck mounted, not on the toerail. I don't think the boat came from the factory with genoa tracks, or maybe it was optional equiptment

[Robert Lemasters]

Had some time to replace the damaged jib tracks on my Commander. I used 1 1/2" wide aluminum strips the length of the tracks instead of washers under the decks to secure them. Note the slam hatch on the cockpit deck, gives me more space for storage and easy access.The toerail and end corner deck dosn't look like most of it has been replaced. Used pvc pipe for the center of the rail, fiberglassed it in and used cathair to mold it. Used auto weather stripping between coamings an side decks. Still have some painting to do and I am waiting for a masthead sheave replacement that is being made from aluminum. Summer is here and in this area the wind is very light this time of year besides being hot and humid but look forward to sailing a lot this autumn.

[Rico]

I've been deep in thought regarding the installation of my sail track(s) for far too long... and I need to get on it! Before I start drilling holes I'd like to learn a bit more.

To date, I've been using a bit of track I installed on the cabin top. This really works best with the storm sail. When I use it with my 100% my ability to trim is limited. (I am unable to pull in the top of the sail and suffer from excess twist at the top of the sail).

I plan to install a bit of track to use with my 100% and for proper trim, this needs to be located down on the deck, around the location of the chainplates in a similar fashion as shown in Post #15 above. I plan to use a 4' length in order to provide for sails ranging from maybe 90% to 115-120%

I am also currently able to use my 180% using an 'unconventional' rigging arrangement involving my stern cleat which actually provides reasonable trim... I will use a long track on the rail to accommodate headsails in the 130% & larger range... I currently have a 135% and my mighty 180% Genoa. (This planned track arrangement is shown in PURPLE in the picture.

- Ignore the arrangement of the sheet in this picture - I was hosing the salt water out of the sail and then started planning the location of the tracks.


My questions are:

1.- Regarding the angle of the track for the smaller headsails; I see tracks angled both inwards and outwards on many boats - sometimes the angle is quite dramatic... and this does not make sense to me.

Should the track be in line with the 'tack' (lower forward corner of the sail -attached to the stem) as shown by the RED line in the picture. Is this correct? (see QUESTION #2 BELOW)

2.- In Bill's post #15 (I attempt to illustrate the location of Bill's track in GREEN) It seems that your track will pull the sail's clew close to the centerline of the boat as you pull the car aft. Perhaps allowing for better pointing? Is this the correct angle?

3.- Has anyone installed a track on the rail? If so, what sort of construction arrangement did you make underneath in order to provide proper backing in the gap under the rail? This are is unfinished and a bit messy - I am considering filling this area in with epoxy; but this is a lot of epoxy...

Thanks in advance for any insight! (do you have a picture of your sail track arrangement?) I really do not want to poke holes and then realize I botched this up and need to poke more holes!

[bill@ariel231]

Rico

With your permission, i'll offer one more option. A-231's tracks run from the chain plates to aft to the winches just inboard of the rail. I found this easy to fasten (it is a flat run). This works with my 110%, the 130% and allowed me to place a cleat Amidships.

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showpost.php?p=11334&postcount=25

I'll eventually add another set of tracks where your drawing shows the green line once i add a blade to the sail locker.

cheers,
bill@ariel231:)

[Lucky Dawg]

Hey Rico,
Original owner installed track on the rails on Lucky Dawg. See pictures in my posts here:
http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/showpost.php?p=15092&postcount=8
 
http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/showpost.php?p=15403&postcount=27
 
I think had I done it, I might have put a matching backing inside, but as I mention in the post, in 40+ years, it hasn't failed... Interestingly, that is the only sail track on LD - none forward.

[commanderpete]

I think the problem will be getting a good lead to the primary winches. The coaming boards will probably be in the way with the green or orange tracks.

The red track might work, with two swivel blocks--an adjustable block towards the front and one "permanent" block at the back leading to the winch.

Maybe a block on the green track to a block on the purple track and then to the winch.

It might help to go sailing and step on the jib sheet

[Rico]

Rico

With your permission, i'll offer one more option. A-231's tracks run from the chain plates to aft to the winches just inboard of the rail. I found this easy to fasten (it is a flat run). This works with my 110%, the 130% and allowed me to place a cleat Amidships.

I'll eventually add another set of tracks where your drawing shows the green line once i add a blade to the sail locker.

Thanks Bill,

I've had my eye on those cleat sliders. They are definitely handy amidships. It seems that you run your sheets OUTSIDE of the shrouds/stay. Is this correct?

I've considered installing the tracks just inside the toerail... It seems simpler as far as the fastening & backing... I do have a nice 10' piece of track that would conflict with my scupper holes... I'll have to put my thinking cap on and figure out how to get proper bedding for the track fasteners. Some big washers over a 2-3" wide strip of 1/2" starboard, or 1/8" Aluminum plate should look (and act) the part; I am thinking...

I've spent some quality time down in the lockers and I came out thinking that it was not as bad as I remembered... I even filled-in a small section of the rail to test the results...
I will report back shortly...

Lucky Dog,
I've looked through LD's gallery (again) and I need to hire your photographer!

I really like the contrast you get with your bright hull... Mine always looks better in person than in the pictures especially with the sun in the back which makes my red waterline look black! (That's what I get with the gray, huh...)
Awesome shots. I really like the one you have up on post #75...

Anyway thank you for the pictures. What size genoa do you fly? (Do you have the measurement of the foot?)

I saw in post #27 that LD's PO filled in the gap and covered it with a bit of glass... Maybe with the VERY thick resin & glass all you'd really need would be the nut as shown by your experience. Perhaps you'd be really secure with just a fender (big) washers in the middle run and maybe a plate washer at the ends... Seems pretty strong!

The red track might work, with two swivel blocks--an adjustable block towards the front and one "permanent" block at the back leading to the winch.

Maybe a block on the green track to a block on the purple track and then to the winch.

It might help to go sailing and step on the jib sheet

Commanderpete; Utilizing the car on the rail track (purple) as you suggest seems like the ticket to ensure proper sheet placement.
I will be spending some quality time this weekend stepping on jibsheets and putting pencil marks on the deck! I HAVE to get these puppies ON!





UPDATE: Jib tracks are on!
http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=1552
Post #99

[Bill]

The "Genoa T Tracks" thread has been deleted.  Please follow this thread.

[Hull376]

I was just reading the July 2010 Sail mag article by Dave Gerr about appropriate sheeting angles.  He does all the geometry and then calculates what the sheeting location should be for a jib and a 150% Genoa.  I got curious about where his method would place the Genoa track and the sheeting point on an Ariel (see the picture below of 7 degree and 10 degree sheeting angles on an Ariel). Dave's article points out that a 150% is about the biggest sail that you can usually efficiently fly with the close hauled 7 degree sheeting angle: bigger sails have sheeting points that would be off the back of the boat!!  Anyway, my surprise is that the sheeting point using his calculations for a 150 Genoa would put it almost to the back of the coaming board.  Hummm.  I usually sheet my 150 much closer to the standard winch position--- which happens to be about where the 10 degree sheeting angle would be.  Not being on the boat right now, I can't get my head around how Dave's far aft point would actually work with respect to the shrouds, etc.  Also, he builds the sail design (clew point) based on where the sheeting point is--- so that a line from the sheeting point perpendicular to the headsail luff would intersect the luff about 40% from the tack. Any comments from the racers on this article and what it would imply?  What is right about it, and what might be wrong--- or full of caveats???

[SkipperJer]

Interesting.  My Commander came with the track out on the toe-rail and well aft.  I've tried in my rookie way to experiment and always felt that the 150 and the 170 before it did best when the car was furthest aft even though the sails laid against the shroud.  The "experienced" sailors told me I was wrong.  Maybe I should not have listened.  I also do not have life-lines or stanchions so the sail comes inboard more than it might on an Ariel with lines.  

I've since had the 170 cut down to a 150.  I've never missed not having that huge sail and have enjoyed running downwind with twin headsails often.

[ebb]

That's what I was thinking - have to take the spreaders into account visavis sheet angle.

[Ariel 109]

The 10 degree jib track rule of thumb is discussed in Arthur Knapp's old book 'Race Your Boat Right'.  He gives the credit of it's origination to a sail designing friend who name I don't remember.  But it doesn't sound too scientifically derived, it's a rule of thumb.   He also talks about double sheeted jib rigging which is having a sheet attached to the jib or one of the jib sheet that pulls the clew downward as well as the regular sheet that pulls backwards (aft).  I'd like to try this out one day.

Sail designs have really changed since many of these ideals were formed.  Best to be skeptical and learn from experience and experiment.

Ben

[vanguard64]

I have been reading this thread with interest especially since I have been sailing my Ariel for only 6 months and experimenting with different trim settings for the headsails. I have the original SS 30inch genoa track but the PO apparently removed the original jib tracks by the cabin sides. I have a CDI roller furler and have 2 headsails; 150% and 135%. CDI claims that I should be able to furl down to 70% of the original LP and still maintain a decent shape to the headsail although they recommend padded luffs which my sails do not have. In my case, I should be able to get the sails down to approximately 95-100% size. However, if the genoa blocks are not moved forward, I run the risk of the furler jumping up off the bearing and having a big mess to deal with. I wonder therefore, what modifications I should make to the genoa track configuration to make sure that once I furl down I can modify the trim to satisfy the smaller sail size. Can I manage a 100% headsail size with a longer genoa track or will I need to switch over an inner track by the cabin sides as originally set up for the smaller jibs? I feel it would be difficult to furl in and then have to switch the sheets to the inboard side of the shrouds but I am not sure what else would work.
I appreciate your thoughts.
Marcelo

[Rico]

Different sail configurations require different sheeting points -therefore; in order to achieve the best sail shape, you will need to move cars and/or shift tracks (when changing the sail size dramatically) as the sail demainds for proper trim...

Not the most desirable thing for a furled sail boat skipper... but there no way around it!

You might notice that some of the modern mass-produced boats come with a very long single tracks and remotely adjustable track cars... Not an ideal solution (again), but an attempt to cover as many of the options posible.

It is very common to see boats out on the bay carrying horrible sail trim ignoring the flailing sails' suffering with neither the crew or skipper bothering to adjust the sails...

Multiple sheet cars will ease the work required to shift from one track to another... Simply take-up the lazy sheet in on the inner track for closer trimming and switch the active shhet to the lazy side...

You can also carry two sets of sheets - one on each set of tracks/cars...

[vanguard64]

Thanks for the prompt reply. Is the original 30 inch track sufficient to properly trim the 150 and 135 when closed hauled? At what size headsail would you switch to the inboard track?