jib track placement

[Mike Goodwin]

Just thru bolts and double washers . The toe rail is very thick glass and I used the new T track . All bolted together it is stronger than the factory deck mounted job that lasted 40 years .
The edge of the deck is very strong glasswork and I don't feel nervous at all about it giving way.
The pull is distributed the length of the track , not on one bolt at a time .
I have seen much larger boats equiped in this manner with no problems and not as heavy glasswork as the Pearsons .

[Bogle]

I just want to add here that I do not beleive there is a reason to reinforce the toerail structure.  I installed my 1" track with 1/4" bolts, washers and nylock nuts.

The shape of the fiberglass toerail creates great strength, and that is why it is shaped, as much as to keep your toes from finding the gunwale unexpectedly.  The glass I drilled on #92 was approximately 1/4" thick.

There are many irregularities on the underside of this.  The glass that covers the joint on #92 from the inside is not always flat against the hull.   Sometimes the hole I drilled (centered on the top) is too close to the hull side and so I used a smaller size washer.  When brought up tight it bends to some extent to the shape of the glass.  

Forces from the sheeting cars are distributed along the track to several holes.  For these reasons I do not think (though I was concerned with reinforcement before installing) that it is necessary to provide a continuous backing.

If anything I would create an epoxy fill to seat the washers on.  I used this technique when reinstalling the bow chocks.  Thick epoxy pushed up into the toerail followed by a 1/4" epoxy coated strip of plywood.  Then drill and tighten the nut over washers on the plywood.

[mrgnstrn]

that last part about filling with epoxy, please look at a previous picture/diagram i posted on 1-23-03.  does either of the two "plates" shown there mimic the plywood part of your reinforcement?  
i can imagine that there might be a lot of epoxy to fill the cavity.
how did you keep it from running out the ends?

i guess i am just really paranoid over this reinforcement issue, probably brought on by the report of having track pull out coupled with the manual's discussion about the hull/deck joint and voids therein.
but thanks anyway.
km#3

[Bogle]

Yes, the plywood plate is in the horizontal plane as Plates A and B in the above diagram.  The toerail is not as deep as shown in that diagram.

The epoxy must be thickened so it will not run.  Several types of additives may be used.  Get the West Systems book for the least expensive introduction to use of epoxy.

A pretty large quantity of epoxy would be required to do the entire track.  You might try just the ends to save material.

Did I miss a post with someone's track pulling out?  What were the circumstances of that?

[Theis]

Apparently the track being pulled out has happened to a couple of us. My experience relates to a deck mounted track.

The bolts, with the washers, literally pull through the fiberglass, bending up the track, which puts strain on the next bolt in the line, and then that too gives way.  However, it was the stern end of the track that pulled out.  I don't know if that would have been as likely if the car had been more centered in the track.

That is why, in my opinion, you should use a metal bar under the track that links the bolts so that the stress area on the fiberglass is more than simply the diameter of a washer.

[Brendan Watson]

I have inboard tracks on my Commander but my bow chocks are
attached to the toe rail. The problem I had was that there was
no way to bed the washer in the concave and irregular space
within the inner toe rail. What I wound up doing was to
bed the chock and mix up some Pro-Poxy putty. I shaped a wad
that wraps around the bolt between the washer and the glassI didn't
tighten up the bolt much but kind of flattened out the putty. The putty
cured and as it did I tightened the bolt/screw and squeezed out the 4200,(outside)
and set the epoxy into its irregular place. Solid as a rock and real clean as you can easily
mold the epoxy before it sets and can sand and paint it if  you want. I've used
Propoxy to mold bushings and part seats etc. Its good stuff and is easy to work with
as long as you use gloves. I have used it with West System products without a hitch
                                                                                                          Cheers B.
                                                                                                         Commander #215

[c_amos]

Mike,
 
  Here are mine, I settled on 8' of 1" track.  How long are yours?
 
Any tips on the install?
 
  I plan to start forward where the bend is more severe, so I won't have to finish bending the ends with short pieces of track (and little leverage).

[Mike Goodwin]

Looking good!
Start up by the shrouds and work your way aft , easier with a second set of hands . I need to get fired up on #45 , good weather and free time do not come together .
I was talking to a friend of my in Jacksonville on Fri. , I might be down your way in a few weeks. Let's get together for a beer . Are you on the Neuse ?

[Mike Goodwin]

Mine are in 2 pieces, I did the genny tracks first , then decided to move the jib tracks out to the rail so I just stacked them end to end . You will need a deep thinwall socket for setting the nuts up in the toe rail.

[Robert Lemasters]

I splashed Commmander #105 on April 23, minus the mast and jib track. Being new to sailing and boat repair I am in some need as to where I should place the jib track and how long it should be, while I have every confidense in the toerail that I rebuilt I wish to replace the new tracks inboard of the toerails. I will secure the new rails to aluminum strips 3" wide under the side decks for strength and peace of mind. The mast is another story I am having a new masthead sheave made in aluminum to the same dimensions as the old because I know no better, could the old sheave be replaced with a smaller one? Lastly the old original tiller broke in half as I was motoring around the dock in some wind and tide, good old duck tape and a c clamp came to the resue. On the way home I purchased a new tiller at good ol' West Marine for $169.00 untill I can make my own.I don't think very much of the laminated tillers or the finish on them. Also I am waiting to have the rigger make some new standing rigging for the mast as some of the old ones have burrs from the boat the rode up and down on them in the storm.  :confused:

[Bill]

Robert, the photos at posts #3 and #10 in this thread (p.1) should give you a good idea of where to place your track inside the toe rail.  Sheave size sounds right to me.  As noted in the manual, I insterted a bearing into the original phonelic shieve.  Real tough stuff.

[Dan Maliszewski]

Just removed my old bronze jib tracks and will replace them with Schaeffer racing tracks at 4" centers.  They are mounted on the toerail, but the 1/4-20 FH mounting screws are THREADED into the toerail and a bent washer/nut  is used as a backer.  Slick, strong and no leaks in 40 years.  Someone had their thinking cap on! Also, the first foot or so of the tracks are straight on both ends.  Like steam bending wood, the ends are impossible to bend in situ.  With longer bolts, the old track might even make a nice backer plate, full length.  Nah, on second thought......

[Dan Maliszewski]

Just now today we finished fitting the Schaeffer racing tracks onto the toerails of Adele M.  We used the old threaded holes in the toerail, sort of , as not all of them lined up, and put washers and nuts up under.  For the ones that did not line up, I redrilled them with a #7 drill bit and threaded them for 1/4-20 threads.  I coated the threads with polysulphide caulk.

Bending was easier than I thought it would be.  Started at the forward end, put in one bolt at a time gently bending the track to stay centered above the rail, drilling and tapping as necessary, and secured the end caps with 12-24 FH screws.  The track is surprisingly flexible.  Also put in a harken traveler, set on varying height pvc tubing stubs, which worked great.

[Theis]

You might want to consider more than just washers under the track.  With the original Pearson issue track, I have had both pulled through the deck,taking the deck with them.  Today I have a stainless plate, about an inch wide, extending beyond the length of the track.

The principal problem occurs when the car is at either end of the track.  The strain can pop the first through hole, then the second - right down the line.

My tracks are on the deck, so the problem may be worse than on the toe rail, but it is still something to think about.  Particularly, with the minimal width of the toe rail, the washers can't be that big, I would imagine.

[Dan Maliszewski]

The crazy thing is, the original track used the same bolts, and about half of them had NO nuts or washers on them.  None had popped through or were even loose, but the rail is 1/4" thick and sometimes more at the crown.  I put 3/4" washers, bent into a curve, on each one, except those too near bulkheads or hull sections.  The track is eight feet long, and the way my sails are cut I will be not using the end positions, so it should be ok.
For deck mounts, that s/s backer plate sounds like a good fix.