things to look for while inspecting

[Dennis Rioux]

Hello,
If all goes according to plan, in a few days I am going to take a look at an Ariel for sale, and I'd like to go into that admittedly unprofessional inspection with a list of things to be on the lookout for. I have built some wooden kayaks and small boats of my own, but the whole big-fiberglass-boat thing is brand new to me (and, yes, 25'7" and 5200 lbs or so is plenty big to me:)). From the main web page of this site I am aware of the strong back, back stay chainplate, and rudder shaft issues. Are there other important known Ariel-specific issues I should be aware of? I know I should check the deck around stanchions and chainplates for soft spots, big ol' cracks in the hull, etc. If I am satisfied myself and if my offer is accepted (and if I can get my intended crew to agree to the purchase :rolleyes:) I will probably get it professionally surveyed, too, but I'd like to be as fully informed as I can be ahead of time. I tried searching the forum, but didn't find any sort of list -- should I join you all in the ranks of happy Ariel owners I will certainly buy the maintenance manual. In the mean time, I would appreciate any and all heads ups you care to share. Thanks a lot.
Dennis

[Bill]

Here is Commander Pete's take:

I really haven’t heard of any problems particular to the Ariel, aside from what is on the website. Of course the boat is getting on 40 years old, and may share some problems common with older boats. The expensive and/or time consuming ones to fix are usually:

springy delaminated deck

brown rigging

old soft sails

worn nonskid

corroded thru hulls/ rudder post

corroded aluminum at foot of mast

leaky deck fittings

humps,depressions or flat spots in the hull from seperated bulkheads

stress cracked gelcoat


The best time to look at a boat is during or just after a rain storm. However, you can usually suspect leaky fittings if they are surrounded with gobs of sealant.

Hiring a surveyor was a good investment. If you take pictures of any suspect areas and post them on the website I'm sure somebody has dealt with the problem already.

Good luck.

[ebb]

Hey Dennis,
Well I think from experience that hiring a surveyor is as difficult as checking out an old boat.

A really knowledgeable friend ( lunch and a beer) I think much more cost effective.

A surveyor is not going to inspect the top of your mast or find out if you have water in your ballast keel.  He won't know if there is rot in the composite under the mast or understand why the big windows leak.  My surveyor, who called himself Captain, spent most of his time making a list of obsolete junk that was lying around in lockers.  And he took a number of photos.  He also reported that the hull had blisters, which it didn't.  And he recommended I check out the rigging.  He didn't recognize that my Ariel had a bastard rudder not did he recognize that the rudder shoe was badly corroded.  He didn't know anything about the rudder being sloppy (because the bearing was shot).  Nor that the tiller arm bolt was worn.

I think you hire a surveyor to find out if you can still sail the boat.  Certainly in my case the guy was useless when it came to specific problems an aging sailboat can have.

If you are a more or less first timer, then having at hand Don Casey's
"Inspecting the Aging Sailboat" (International Marine)
is a great asset.

I would take along on inspection something hard to TAP with (like a small hammer rather than a screwdriver handle) - to listen for the dull thud that could be rot in the balsa deck or cabin top.
I would have an awl to poke into the wood beam under the mast and also the tops of the ply bulkheads that anchor the chainplates.
I would have a knife to scrape near fastenings on the mast to check for galvanic corrosion.  Of course you will have to deal with the owner on the scraping and poking - but he should be OK with it.  If he isn't he's covering up something.



Good Luck!
These are beautyful sailboats.
There are restorers on this site who bring their boats back to original condition.
I believe every aspect of bringing these classic boats forward into the 21st century has been covered in the Manual and this Forum.
You can find no nonsense help with any problem here.
Many personal projects photographed - and ideas recorded
And a lotta fun.:cool:

[mbd]

As a counter point to Capt Ebb's post - if I were Ebb, I wouldn't hire a surveyor either - my surveyor did a fantastic and thorough job when he checked out my boat. He took exhaustive pictures and gave me a full report with a CD of the pictures a couple of days after the survey. He more than paid for his fees with my reduced and subsequently accepted offer on the boat. Of course, I've paid for the boat about three times since...  

Sails are a big expense and often overlooked when buying. The deck core has been covered. Ebb mentioned the rudder. You should also consider the condition of the auxiliary power. Also, a well equipped cruising boat can have tons worth of extra equipment that really adds up fast.

The Ariel is a worthy and beautiful boat!

Good luck and keeps us posted!

[Commander 147]

I have to side with Ebb on this one and I am NOT as knowledgeable as Ebb. I have only hired a surveyor once and it was when I bought my Commander. But my personal experience was that after spending some time studying the manual that I bought prior to inspecting my commander I was more knowledgable about these boats than he was. And even on the things that any surveyor who does regular inspections on a variety of boats should be able to correctly analyze such as blisters and deck rot, my surveyor was off base on the actual situation. And I did not hire the first name in the phone book. I called three marinas in the area where the boat was located and asked for refferances. The guy I hired came up in all three.
 
The one area that a surveyor can help is to get the price reduced. Many sellers will take the word of a "professional" surveyor over you or your friend. So Buy the manual, study it, inspect the boat for the things mentioned in the manual and if your seller won't lower the price for an issue you discover hire a surveyor to tell him the same thing so he will. Just my humble opinion.

[c_amos]

I second the advice of buying the manual from the association.

  The survey is only as good as the surveyor.  Some are better then others, but IMHO many are worth little more then the paper the paper they are printed on.

 Conjecture, and opinion... one' mans opinion and conjuncture... and tough to know what he knows...

  Here is a list of things to consider, it is not Ariel / Commander specific (buy the manual for those things)... but it ought to be a good list to help you look for things.  I would recommend printing the thread and taking it with you.

Boat Buying Inspection tips on SailFar.net

[mbd]

...The one area that a surveyor can help is to get the price reduced. Many sellers will take the word of a "professional" surveyor over you or your friend. ...

This was kind of my point. I suppose you should make the distinction between a "total restoration" boat and a "sail away" boat (according to the owner) as well. A "total restoration" should already be at a very reasonable price - i.e. no surveyor necessary and you know what you're getting into...

But all this will become clear once Dennis posts some pics and info on the boat he's considering.  

[Dennis Rioux]

Thanks, everybody, for the responses. I didn't know about Don Casey's "Inspecting the Aging Sailboat" -- I've got a copy of his book "This Old Boat" out from the library because I have also been considering a decrepit Ensign that needs an absolute ton of work (the tap test reveals more saturated deck core than not :eek:). I am hoping that by spending more up front on this particular Ariel I would end up ahead in the game. But the 3'8" draft is right at the upper limit of the available water at the public mooring area I intend to keep it, so the Ensign at 3'0" would be better in that respect, but the bottom is nice soft mud at least a foot deep. And, so I go, round and round...

I hope I haven't given the impression I am too cheap to buy the manual -- I am supposed to go look at this thing tomorrow if the broker ever calls back, and I wouldn't have time to get it and absorb it. It's a two hour drive one way to take a look, so a lot of back and forth isn't going to happen. After a lot of hemming and hawing, I am pretty much "there" as far as an Ariel is concerned -- this site is an excellent extended advertisement and an excellent resource as I have discovered in my months of lurking. Very convincing. Buying the manual will be my first bit of extra equipment for the boat, I promise.

I will weigh the pros and cons of a survey after I have taken a look at it myself. If my figures are right, a survey would work out to a bit less than 10% of the purchase price, and that might be "recoverable" as Commander 147 points out. I'll hem and haw about that for a while, too, I am sure. I'm not the world's most decisive person for sure. I'll keep you all posted as things progress. Thanks again, you have given me lots of good stuff to start with.

Dennis

[Dennis Rioux]

mbd,

Yeah, I have been dancing around the "reveal" part because I don't want anybody swooping in and getting her before me. It really isn't a secret -- the boat has come up in conversation here before back when I started asking questions earlier this summer. It's A-354 Nordlyset (Norwegian for Northern Lights, I believe) up in Sister Bay, WI. On the surface it sure looks to be in "sail away" condition. It's been for sale for well over a year now (inside storage) and there has been a recent reduction in asking price that makes it quite competitive with what I think I would spend fixing up that Ensign I mentioned. Here she is (full listing is on YachtWorld):







I think the sails are older -- the original ad mentioned early 90s but quickly omitted that information. Not necessarily bad depending on how much they've been used. Much looks original and complete which is a big plus for me, the potential novice "big" boat owner. Something funky with the hull where the outboard passes through -- an historical modification, evidently. Not a lot "extra" but we wouldn't be cruising more than an overnight on the big lake we live a quarter mile from (Lake Winnebago -- big mud puddle, 250 square miles of maximum 22' deep water). Now, be nice and give a guy a chance to get his act together, get up there, and make an offer.

Dennis

[bill@ariel231]

Cool, a (mostly) unmodified boat in good looking shape. Is that an original aluminum cowl vent on the bow?

[c_amos]

Dennis,

 

Something funky with the hull where the outboard passes through -- an historical modification, evidently.

Doubt it is anything to worry about.  There is a 'plug' some of us have to sail the boat when the outboard it pulled.  Some folks have either modified this plug, or made a replacement that can be installed around the outboard when it is in place.

  Do a search on 'outboard plug' or 'well plug' and you will see more on it.

Looks like a nice boat, good luck!

[Dennis Rioux]

bill,

I don't know if it is original, but here is a better shot to help you decide (if I have understood correctly the boat part to which you refer :rolleyes:).



To my eye, it is sort of clunky and I'd be inclined to make it go away...

edited to add: nope, not what you were referring to, right? waaay up there on the bow is another, more modest vent of appropriate proportions

c_amos,

Thanks -- it does look like it might pop in and out, doesn't it? And thank you *very* much for that sailfar.net link you posted earlier. I'm reading through the suggestions on that page right now. Good info there.

Dennis

[bill@ariel231]

Actually it is the one way up front that I was thinking about.

Hmmm. it looks like the hatch mounted vent at risk of being removed by the jib sheets when you tack.

[Rico]

I do not know what the asking price is - but it'd be worth an offer even just by what I've seen here... (trying to encourage you!)

It is a OB and looks quite well taken care of... This boat had someone who cared for her... The rudder looks solid too...

I'd check for soft decks, a solid rudder shoe, mast complete & in good shape, and I'd go sailing!!

Best of luck!

[ebb]

She looks great, she looks cared for.
Hope she works out for you.
She looks original, a good sign.

Here's another piece of marina wisdom.
Never hire a surveyor that works out of the broker's office.

I hired mine through whatever surveyor's association there is here in California.  Thought I was smart.  It obviously soured me on the process.  There is no licensing process to become a surveyor that I'm aware of.
You need a surveyor for insurance and some quasi legal issues.  And like I was and you are, new to the process - we gotta have a knowledgeable professional who can give us an indepth and complete picture of the boat.  Some people are better at it than others.
Maybe worth while to ask what level of inspection the guy provides.  Interview prospective surveyors.  Is he a powerboat guy mostly, has he inspected classic plastic sailboats - which ones?

I might go to the most active boatyard in the area and ask around.  I might even ask the yard manager/master - these guys are realists.  You might get an opinion of who in the area is the most respected surveyor.