Tenders

[ebb]

Mike!  Eye candy fer sure!
So for $1500 and two bag lunches (one for the lass) we have a nice 'winter' project.  
BS1088 (British Standard) Okoume' is the highest grade of plywood available (the next step up to the top is Lloyds), that's what's in the Eastport Kit.  That basicly means the wood is void free -  important in skinny plywood.  The stuff is not made in this country (not that it would be better here), so you cross your fingers on the subspecies and  glue.  Okoume' will give you the lightest boat.  In Stitch-and-Glue the plywood becomes the 'core' between an inside and outside layer of glass.  The wood will be saturated with epoxy.  Much of the pram's strength comes from it's shape, but it all depends on the epoxy and glass.  

If just plans are available, and you think you might beat the tarrif, I wouldn't consider APA (American Plywood Assoc = NO standard at all) AC 1/4" fir plywood even for a coffin!   Douglas Fir would make an excellent skinny plywood, equal to Okoume' and Meranti.  Much US fir plywood is not made with fir, especially interior veneers. We lost it. 1/4" Meranti would make a heavier boat than the 60 Eastport #s, don't know, but it would climb up there.*  The biggest problem will be holding back adding layers and stuff.  I'd probably want to add extra frp to the bottom.  
Looking at the Eastport parts spread sheet, we'd have a great feeling of acheivement when it came out of the garage in the spring!  Man, I would, it looks like a real challenge!  A lot of hours.  Good ale.

Don't know anything about anything here.  If the parts are 'laser cut' and accurate it should be fun to put together.  As a boat tender, among other things, would make a take apart mast, like the oars, to stow inside the pram.

Anyway, will it fit on the boat?  I've got some long pieces of corrugated box material that I'll take down to the boat this wkend...
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* Okoume'
4mm5/32 - 13.2# - $52 ===== Meranti 4mm - 19# - $35
5mm3/16 - 17.8# - $62 ===== ------------------------
6mm1/4 -- 20.0# -   $69 ===== --------6mm - 25# - $44
>Thickess - Weight per 4X8 sheet - Cost FOB World Panel Products Inc<

1/4" marine Douglas Fir (3 ply)-----$61.   Probably would not have the BS1088 rating.  Meaning it could have knots, voids, splits hidden inside - or defects on the 'B' side.  Any void in an inside layer of thin plywood will destroy the integrity of the boat.  Any cracks in the skin cancels out that layer.  Would not trust the damn bathtubs.

1/4" Okoume' is 3ply. 1/4" Meranti is 5ply. The wood is more dense and there's more glue. 5 ply full 1/4" marine-grade Meranti imco is incredible material, probably twice as strong as 1/4" Okoume'.  But it may make too heavy an Eastport Pram for the Ariel. Maybe certain planks could be thicker like on the bottom?  Be perfect if they made 3/16 Meranti.  1/4" M would probably be too stiff to bend.  You'd have to prebend with hotwater. PITA.
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This info is to the best of my ability, I could be wrong, very wrong about something.  Everything.  As I scour the internet, there are forums out there with a lot of hearsay and wronger info.  A lotta people don't know what their talking about.  And those that think they know can't think outside the box.  If you don't feel like tackling this project, I would first visit a Bolger/Payson boatbuilding site.  Buy Payson's 'Build New Instant Boats', for an outofdate but informed beginning.  Then checkout //www.soar1.com :eek:
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Forgot both days to take the cardbord to the boat.

  >>>>>>>>BUT FOLKS, THAT EASTPORT WON'T FIT - IT'S TOO LONG.<<<<<<<

There is room on the Ariel foredeck AND PROPPED UP ON THE CABIN IN FRONT OF THE MAST for a 6' maybe 6 1/2' pram.  ONLY!!!  If we need to lower the pram onto the cabin by cutting its transom, the cabin is 4' wide.  Not going to happen in a smaller boat if we want to keep some proportions.  Smaller boats are narrower OA than wider.  It's a design problem.  And a problem with the jib.  Assuming a DIY approach: One candidate - a place to begin - is 'Tiny Ripple' A 6' Unsinkable Flat-Bottom Pram By William & John Atkin.  It's probably still too wide in front (or back - since it is box shaped.)
http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Dinks
It could be developed for a modified stitch and glue. with a little more freeboard.  There must be something more appropriate with a more skiff-like prow but still a pram, so that it fits in the Ariel bow.  If there was room in front to do anchor work, one could step over the tender if it was too wide.
Some designs might fit really well - angled up on the cabin - without cutting.  The prolific Atkin's must have designed it.
http://www.dngoodchild.com
HERE IT IS:
#7803 POOTZY by Al Mason - is a 6' 6" - 38" beam - that looks like just the ticket. In fact it could easily be an Atkins but it has a better bow shape for us. [POOTZY is an old couple's term of endearment for each other.    I've sent away for the single sheet plan: $3.50, S&H $2.50. I think this boat could be 8" to 10" wider (add it right down the middle) and fit real comfy-on the foredeck.  Stitch&Glue.]
http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/details.asp?Name=Feather+Pram
for a 6'8" clinker style S&G sailer.
Good Luck!
I'm off it for now, feel like I'm peeing in the wind!:o

[commanderpete]

I like the idea of the Porta Bote. It would fit inside one of the cavernous lockers of a Commander. But, its $1150 and the boat's outboard would be too heavy for it.

Here another folding boat

http://www.woodenwidget.com/Origami.html

This one would probably be a pain to assemble

http://www.rvtoyoutlet.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=RV&Product_Code=RV0074

A singlehander, doing an occasional cruise, might be able to get by with an inflatable kayak

[ebb]

C'pete, youse good!
That widget: that dink has a few wrinkles alright, has all the substance of a tissue box.  And that green rvtoy?  A true find!  Brought to you by the folks at Coleman, doubles as a shotgun case, comes with a picnic table.

Here's a straightforward dink that's purrfect for the Commander...
http://home.clara.net/gmatkin/puss2.jpg

NOW SEE THIS:

//www.personal.umich.edu/~janhande/dinghy/fabrication.htm
*
type in >neutrino dinghy< (Small, light sailboat dinghy (salboat tender) of carbon fibre...)  Hit all the pages!  You computer nutz will be impressed, I think.

Jan Andersen's (an industrial design professor at UM) 6'2" Neutrino is a breakthru invention and a very pleasing little tender to look at.  Made from carbonfiber and kevlar, has 150 lbs added foam flotation, a couple skegs with handholes on the bottom, a builtin wheel in the stern,  4' beam,
WEIGHS 35 LBS,
has a 500 lb load capacity.  That may be to the gunwale.  It'll take two friendlies (man & dog) and groceries!
Originally found it as a Soundings, Aug2005 reprint of a short article with photos.  Since this is not a product there is no hype, so take a look.  If these were for sale, and came with a rag, it would be worth more than what Eastport gets as a kit.  Because IT IS A BOAT.  It's also a sculpture!  I'm not sure, maybe the Professor has plans available.

The problem is the expensive materials, but the Neutrino is a tiny package.  It would FIT PERFECT on the foredeck of an Ariel!:cool:


A wet, heavy, frightened and freezing old man:  should be able to haul himself onto a boat's tender from the water without sinking it.  Ideally it should float filled with water and its human, but that may be asking too much.  We should be able to climb aboard, displace the water and bail.  On a small cruiser the tender's primary function is dual: transportation to groceries  and life saving at sea.  There is a hollow 'unsinkable' ABS rotomold dinghy that is too heavy and long for us: Portland (something): but the idea is abroad.  The subject is important.
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*sorry, web address had dash(-) after www.  Did not go blue.
Retyped a period(.) after www.  Now goes blue but it's in error.:mad:
Type in the google, it's worth the visit.

[mbd]

Cool beans! :cool:

Ebb's Link above

Here's another "function over form" dinghy: PDRacer

[mbd]

Not sure how you'd fit anything more than one person though!

[ebb]

Mike,
If it began as a dinner table challenge or a vision in the shower, the Professor's challenge was well met.  It definitely (as far as we can tell on the moniter) is the smallest real dinghy possible with the mostest going for it that I've seen.  It could be a little longer - 4 inches?  Make a sailer out of it?  Did you notice on the critique page the cad drawing showed how deepening the forefoot changes the chine lines - for the better, I think?  It would indeed improve the Neutrino. imho

[Why did the Norwidgeon professor give his pram an Italian name?]

The Ariel pramster challenge for me at the moment is to custom a tender so as whose transom can sit lower over the cabin.  The Neutrino has a thoughtful padded concavity to its stern, but I would like to have the Ariel's boat sit lower, right?, missing the forehatch entirely, of course,  so it would be right up close to the mast, and at less of an angle riding down over the deck. Couldn't have a built in stern seat now could it? (How about an inflatable bladder like airboats have??)  And you'd keep the pram from going down too far so there'd be some room  to  raise the hatch underneath for air.  Have to insist on that.  Good protected ventilation!
   
Kurt's challenge, in my interption, was to checkout a two-part nester that slipped over the nose - interesting - and more snug to the deck - but since I'm doing most of the bs here, I think a ready-to-launch  like the Nuetrino is what we all would really want.  Man, no folding around.  Who could  seriously see pumping up an airboat ever again, if the idea pans out.

Don't believe that the resulting custom dink for the Ariel would be as cute as the Professor's.  A 4' + wide transom in six and a half foot length would net a wider rider, a more buttly and heavier boat.  TYhat could make it less tippy and able  to carry more.  I like Mason's proportions as a starting place BUT we'd have to add 8" down the middle plus a 'V' to the bottom of the pram that gets wider at the stern.  Like someone who's put on a lot of weight and has to expand their jeans.  The Ariel pram that housed over the cabin would have a definite triangular propensity that would be hard to make look good.  Mason notwithstanding.
 
Neutrino's friendly vacuum bagged curves are a big part of the success of the design - but I think a traditional pram is a way to go for the Ariel prototype.  Unless somebody has a contribution heah.  A working model from doorskin and 1/4" ply would be easier for me to put together.  Anybody else??  
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Besides a snappy sheer, a pram needs rocker (fore and aft curve in the bottom) for nimble sailing.  (Ariel pram HAS to sail, right?) And ideal deadrise gets the weather bilge out of the water when sailing.  (Ariel pram HAS to have deadrise..)  The 6' pram problem is THE ultimate compromise, isn't it?  
Too much deadrise makes the boat tippy - too much rocker makes the boat hard to row, but if flattened at the stern you could put a tiny OB on it.  Curves means thinner material can be used in construction.
Here's a 30 pounder!!!
>google< Good work, Chuck
//www.chebacco.com/articles/019/06/article.htm
Here's a one-sheeter in a homey setting, not to be missed!  Just to remind you you can do it too.
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/cutterj/boat1/boat1.htm

[ebb]

Kurt, take note:
Made a pattern of the exterior shape of the Ariel cabin in the space between the hatch and the maststep.  And drew it out full size on paper in the garage.  338 has a larger hatch base so the rather arbitrary space is smaller, probably closer to the maststep.

49" -  Width of cabin just forward of mast and just above the deck/cabin curved 'fillet.'  It's a level line thru the cabin, if you will.  
The next three are the 'interesting' ones.

83/84 degrees - Angle of sides off the horizontal 'level' base line established above.  Slope of cabin sides.  Not off deck.

106 degrees - Estimated angle of cabin side to a half chord from the centerline of the cabin arc.  IE making a straight line to the middle of the cabin crown from the top of the cabin's  rounded corner.

13" - Estimated height of cabin off the arbitrary horizontal, be more if deck and cabin met sharp.


Al Mason's Pootsy, measured off a single sheet drawing got thru dngoodchild that was reduced to 1/12.  IE to  a 6 1/2" drawing representing a full size 6 1/2' pram.  You need a downloadable 1" (12) = 1' scale rule.

37" - Width of transom.

83/84 degrees - angle of sides to waterline at the transom.  The angle changes at the other stations, which is expected.

106+ degrees - angle of sides to bottom at transom.

14" - height of transom in the center.

This curious coincidence is pretty amazing to me.  Certain shapes and proportions must please the inner eye.
Kurt, you got a good eye!:D
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Made some scale drawings.   It IS possible to imagine an extremely wide pram.  I can - I'm  large and fairly heavy.  Be actually easier for me to row it.  However, realistically, we're shouldn't expect to have a pram that is 50+" wide to lower over the cabin.  The reason is we have the structure of the pram transom to consider,  the transom won't be there when the pram is lifted.  Have to find and fit the transom and fiddle with fastenings!  What narrow framing would be strong and stiff that the removable transom is attached to?   It's the integrity of the pram at the transom that bothers me  if we really want to french the pram to the cabin.  

There is the traditional rear seat of a pram to think about and the raising of the hatch for venting when it's upside down on the boat.  The seat is important for structure and can be made hollow for flotation.  So if anyone else is visualizing this conundrum, to me it's obvious that the pram has to ride higher.  Therefor it need not be as wide.  The arc of the cabin is 2" - not radical. It's not a bad concave shape for a padded transom.  The narrower the transom the higher it sits.  The forehatch has to be operable and the little side ports would be usable.  The transom would not need to be so compromised, making the pram stronger.  Just exactly what, we'll find out with a scale model if I ever get around to it.  NOW, whether the pram transom would actually fit the prescribed space between mast and hatch has to be determined - probably on the boat.  Niche fitting often does not work out.  Any thoughts, even negative, would be really  appreciated.

For me, Pootsy could be made wider and a little deeper by adding a piece down the middle.  I would attempt it in a stitch and glue adaption.  A wider pram would fit pretty well on the foredeck.  If it did work out Pootsy would obviously become Puttsy.  (Oopsy and Poopsy also come to mind.) Don't know that Al would approve!?  Don't know what the width limit is yet.  Or even the exact length.

[mbd]

I dunno. I'm still liking the folding dinghy idea.

Ease of deployment is nice, but to me, the fore deck hatch is just too valuable for light and ventilation, and for stuffing head sails. And an uncluttered foredeck is a must, I would think, for cruising. I'll be sticking to the coast for my foreseeable future, so towing is my most likely option.

Perhaps you could rig up storage under the cockpit - so you could go bigger and less efficient as far as stowing the pieces. With a proper sized cockpit hatch, maybe you could even stow a nester under there? Or, maybe Ebb could look at designing a nester for his rear engine compartment??

How about one of those plastic kayaks like James Baldwin of Atom? Stored along  a side deck, but readily available and easily rowed...

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OK. So I reread the beginning of the thread and realized I've come full circle and am just rehashing already posted comments. Sorry.

[frank durant]

Ebb....FWIW...Doug,Rick,Abbey and I all bought those 'on sale- worst marine' inflatable kayaks for $149 for the MA cruise....they paddle WAY better than expected...store really small and blow up easily. A $16 battery pump @ wally world sure helps inflate. Not very good for moving supply's , but VERY good for transporting yourself,exploring and excersize. We were all happy.

[ebb]

Frank, I'll wait for a YouTube video showing you guys getting in and out of your kyacks from the boat.  Like the idea and the price.  And if I could get into one, I'd think seriously about having one aboard - for excursions, and exercise - in addition to a righteous dinghy.

A small cruiser will not be carrying a liferaft.  A 'self-rescue' pram imco is something to aim for.  So I'd go for one that was essentially unsinkable, one you could climb out of the water into, one that could be sailed - however crudely, and light enough to be deployed and retrieved with ease.  If it doesn't exist then we have to at least find out WHY.

SO, a sixfoot pram that'll hold two with the pram's gear, abandon-ship gear, and groceries!!!
An airboat may be the only answer for a small cruiser like the Ariel.
But it is a 'giveup' compromise to me.

Mike, 338 has to have its batteries somewhere in the space under the cockpit.  I got a hatch for the cockpit deck.  But the idea of a hole there is bothering me.  The owner of the outfit I bought it from said, when I asked how waterproof it was, that all boats were designed with bilges to be pumped out!:D

[frank durant]

Ebb...I'm trying to 'shrink' a pic here so it will fit. Different computer than home so getting frustrated. ..the kayak..In/out is better than expected...but not graceful. Funny how when you go to get in/out...ALL eyes are watching. Good entertainment at the anchorage.'edit'..@home now...here's the pic. They should call us '4 ole guys in kayaks'....there isn't 50 dark hairs among us...this is Rick...cool shades eh !!   PS..pic is in Cuttyhunk Harbour,off Buzzards Bay MA.   PSS..don't try this at home folks..we're trained professionals.

[frank durant]

Ebb...just a note...niether the paddle nor wine glass or cool shades are included in that price.

[ebb]

Criminee Frank, if you hadn't warned us, I could have swore it was a whitetop wine fly emerging from its coccoon.

[ebb]

you began this thread.
Foredeck pram? Got something yet?

[Bill]

Geoff has a tender . . .