Replacing Portholes

[Janice Collins]

I agree with ebb.  I need to change the starboard v-birth  opening port and I want the original design, shape, and size..  Looking at these forward  ports as I'm swimming around her, they remind me of dolphin eyes.  I couldn't imagine changing that look.

Now a question:   The 2 large cabin  non-opening ports---I caulked them years ago with no further  leaking problems.  But they are seriously crazed.  Which I don't mind except I wonder if this makes them  less strong???

[glissando]

I have to say that the large ports common to the Ariel, Triton, Vanguard, early Bristols, Albergs, etc. are probably not my favorite part of the designs.

HOWEVER, I do consider them to be a very important part of the boats' signature Alberg, 60's look that instantly indentifies our boats to an onlooker.  While I'm sure that some nice big bronze semi-oval opening ports, similar to those used in Pacific Seacraft or similar boats, would look pretty nice in the raised portion of the cabin trunk in place of the huge fixed ones, it would undeniably change the look of the boat.  There was an article in GOB some time back about a guy with an A30 who did this, and it looked nice.  But it looked like a completely different boat, too.

That's OK, if it's what you want.  But part of the classic value of the design would be lost, I think.  If I were sailing around the world, I'd probably put those types of ports in first, though, for the stronger construction (and ventilation).

Since I mostly intend to be sailing coastwise, and perhaps eventually to the Bahamas or Caribbean, I think I will stick with my signature ports.  I find plenty of ventilation when anchored through the forward hatch.  I think that in places where the breeze doesn't flow through the forward hatch more opening ports would definitely have their value.  It comes down to what's most important: looks or function.  I don't think I'd be inclined to change out my large ports purely for ventilation purposes...that's a part of the boat's design that I accept for what it is up front, and deal with the consequences.

Personally, I wouldn't change out the forward, small ports either--mine are solid bronze and are appropriate for the boat.  But I do understand why some feel it is desirable, and, given the silly prices for new period ports to replace deteriorated originals, I also understand that the financial considerations force use of some of the current plastic ones.

Our boats may have some classic design and value, but they're not museum pieces either.  So, if it (whatever it is) works for you, great!  Opinions are opinions, and one is not necessarily right and another wrong; they're just different.

Tim

[Dave]

I just want to say what a great discussion group this is!  Thoughtful, experienced, helpful, courteous.  Way to go, folks.
When I feel like I have gained enough experience from the cascading series of projects related to restoring 257, "Brigid", I'll chime in.
For what it's worth, I find the Ariel / Triton look -- including the portlights -- a never ending source of pleasure; a little like looking at the old Porches -- dated, but uniquely beautiful, and an incredibly refreshing change from the docks crammed with "me too" boats.
--Dave in Edmonds, WA

[Mike Goodwin]

Look familiar?
It's the Cape Dory 25D , also designed by Alberg , identical from the waterline down ( it has a fatter transom )
But look at those 3 opening ports designed by Alberg on the Ariel hullform , sure is a lot more comfortable and it doesn't make me want to hurl looking at it .

I'm not doing a restoration on #45 , it is a resurection .
 If you want to be authentic to the boat , get rid of those 4 stroke outboards , they are not period to the design , also you EPIRBS , GPS , compact VHF radios , full batten mains , self tailing winches , roller furling/reefing headsails , etc. etc. etc.

[Mike Goodwin]

Think of it like a 49Mercury that has been chopped and channeled , a vast improvement over the stock Merc sedan .

[Janice Collins]

Yes, that Cape Dory is  beautiful.

  But  if I were to change my ports to yours, why,  I then basically changed my boat from an Ariel to a Cape Dory.

I guess the risk of extinction is a possibility for the Ariel, like all other things in the world.  But there will always be groups around  trying to prevent specific specie demise.  And it sounds like there are a few for the Ariel.  Which is a good thing!!    

So, I hope there are a few still trying to do restorations, not just reconstructions.  Not that reconstructing is a bad thing, just a different thing.  And it is those differences that make the world go round.  But how much prettier that world would be with an Ariel sailing on it......

Whether we are attempting  reconstructions, true resurrections or restorations, we all agree on the beauty of her lines and her ability to sail so sweet!

 :cool:

[Mike Goodwin]

The Ariel will outsail that Cape Dory anyday , it has and will again . I can't figure out the differance between the two , but #45 and the CD25 in the photo have raced many times with various owners and the Ariel always wins .( I have sailed both )

It will take a lot more than just changing the ports to make an Ariel a Cape Dory 25 , to start with;
Cabin is longer and single height , no lazzarette locker behind cockpit ,only one seat locker (port side ) no Vee berth and it has a big fat ugly transom .
As the old saying goes " ten pounds of S**T in a five pound bag " that is what they tried to do with the CD25 . The boat lacks the elegant simplicity of the Ariel , I suspect Alberg was doing it for the $$$ and just caved in to the accomodation requirements set forth by Cape Dory .

I much prefer the Ariel to the CD25 .

[Janice Collins]

I guess I shoudn't have been so loose in saying the ariel would be a cape dory if the ports were changed.   All I really wanted to imply was that that defining look of the Ariel  would be lost by placing small ports in place of the 4 large original ones.

Anyways, nobody knows if the crazing that is pervasive on my 4 large ports make them less strong?  Is that a reason alone to replace them.    Otherwise, no leaks etc......

[Mike Goodwin]

The crazing in the plastic is a sign of its demise  & should be replaced .

And as to the on going debate , I'm attracted to the Ariel hullform , not the coach house , as it's strongest design point . Particularly the graceful overhanging ends . The cabin to me is a necessary evil to be tolerated at best . I think the Commander has a far less obtrusive cabin design .I prefer flush decks , which do limit headroom , which some folks seem to be obsessed with . Everything I do below decks can be done sitting down or prone .

The attached photo is of a boat with a lovely cabin .

[Janice Collins]

The crazed plastic should be replaced  because......  Does it pose a hazard?  If so what??   Is it more prone to smashing  up, caving in, blowing out...?  

What causes this  crazing,  UV LIght?

[Mike Goodwin]

It is aged by the sunlight , the cracks are like tiny scores in glass , a sharp blow can cause it to go depending on how far gone it is . The plastic is basicly shrinking like drying mud , therefor the cracks . 30+ years is asking a lot from the old window material (40years this winter for #45) .Plastics get brittle with age . You should be able to replace all 4 windows for about $80 , just use the old as patterns , cut on a bandsaw and final shape with a rasp or sander to the line .

[ebb]

Also corrosive cleaners and solvents like petroleum products, almost anything with a high odor, will eat acrylic.
You might go to the Triton Maintenance site to read Jim Baldwin's (Atom 384) take on replacement.   He's sailed his Triton twice around the world.
Basicly you stableize the space between the liner and the cabin with epoxy filler and fit the hole with somewhat thicker lexan bolting cxompletely thru the frames.   Aluminum? I don't know.  Tritons may have bronze. But if the aluminum isn't degraded I'd use them and isolate the bolts with goop.  Or that stuff they've come up with for masts and ss fasteners?
Polycarbonate is 3Xs more expensive than acrylic, ten times stronger, comes in sun screen tints.   It will age, UV degrade and corrode too - and scratch easier.   But you'll take care of them better.   And the man says he don't worry none no more.

[ebb]

Let me say that I have not done this procedure, ok?  This be gossip not gospel.  I will after much procrastination go with a version of  Baldwin's.   It depends how ALL of the frames come out and how they clean up.
You can easily cut window plastic on site with yer Bosch jigsaw following a suitable pencil line on the paper protecting the plastic.:cool:

[ebb]

Perhaps some interesting first timer advice.

204.220.138.252/newspics/charts/907windows.pdf

[Brent]

At the risk of inciting the anger of the "tall ghost of a bignosed ectomorphic swede", I have to say that #66 is going to be a reconstruction, not a restoration.

The aforementioned A30 is actually on the front cover of "Good Old Boat", and it has stirred my heart for several years now. In fact, when I was looking for a boat, I zeroed in on the Ariel, Triton, Vanguard, early Bristols, Albergs, etc., just so I could have a boat that looked like that A30!

IMHO, changing the portlights doesn't take from the Ariel's charm or unique lines, but adds to it. Most of today's clorox bottle boats have square or triangular fixed ports that lack the charm of an opening round or oval bronze port.

Brent