Headsails

[commanderpete]

I suspect it has to do with the way sails are cut. In order to get a properly shaped triangle the luff has to be shorter for a jib.

With a larger genoa you also might want to take advantage of the better air up high.

You could use a taller jib, as long as its not too tall, accounting for stretch.

This is for a hanked on jib. For a furling genoa, the luff dimension is critical, although the sail can be hoisted higher with a pennant at the bottom

[rudy]

I have Commander 216.  I use a J-80 150 jib. and it does great. I like Mike Goodwin's response.  When the wind pipes up, the first thing I do is reef and we really go fast.  The boat behaves and does not round up.  We also have lots of trophies to back up the use of the jib.  I hardly ever reef up through 18 knots of wind.  The sheeting is right beside the cockpit.  The boat came with genoa track running the full length of the cockpit.  That's exactly where the genoa sheets to. About 2 feet aft of the cabin  then up to the primary wench.  Hope this helps.

[Vines]

We race Commander #229 on a lake in Texas. All we have is the 155 Genoa with the jib track on the toerail. We hold our own on all the runs and reaches but when we have to point most everybody passes us. I need some tips on getting this boat to point higher. I have considered a 110 with the track inboard like the picture above. Would I lose too much speed with the smaller sail or would it increase my pointing ability to more than make up for that?

[commanderpete]

Pray for wind.

A fin keel boat will point higher than one with a modified full keel. This makes it tough on windward/leeward courses which often have no reaching leg at all.

The 110 sail will give you better VMG above a certain wind speed. But, you don't want to be under-canvassed

The boat likes good wind and can carry alot of sail.  The boat will do best to windward in strong winds when the other boats have to sail fat because of chop and you can power through with momentum.

Some things to try:

Get clear air at the start. You will get rolled by faster boats and dirty air is deadly. Tack away early if necessary. Sail your own race.

Keep tacks to a minimum since it may take longer to get back up to speed. Overstand the mark a little. Coming out of a tack build up speed before sheeting all the way in. The faster you go, the faster the wind and the higher you can point.

Beating to windward is all about the helmsman. There is a very narrow groove between pinching and being overtrimmed, which changes with every lift and header. Consider getting a tiller extension so you can sit forward enough to read the telltales.

You need enough halyard/luff tension going upwind. Leech cupping or fluttering is also bad.

You want as little rudder deflection as possible. Consider reefing even if noone else is reefed to reduce weather helm. Reefing also helps to flatten an otherwise baggy mainsail.

The problem with the cabintop jib tracks on the Commander is getting a good lead to the primary winches. A track on the deck is going to have a similar problem getting the sheet around the coaming. I've been thinking about doing it, although I have a furling genoa.

Lots of factors go into windward performance. But, the bottom line is that you won't point as high as most other boats and you'll go slow trying.

[c_amos]

What an excellent post! Commander Pete just distilled most of what I learned in the couple seasons of racing Faith into one post...
 

Pray for wind.

  When the race comittee is considering canceling the race for 'conditions' you are going to do well. The A/C really shows her stuff when it blows hard... kinda fun watching the light fin keel boats getting blown all over the place while you are under control and tracking streight....
 
 

A fin keel boat will point higher than one with a modified full keel. This makes it tough on windward/leeward courses which often have no reaching leg at all.
 
The 110 sail will give you better VMG above a certain wind speed. But, you don't want to be under-canvassed
 
The boat likes good wind and can carry alot of sail. The boat will do best to windward in strong winds when the other boats have to sail fat because of chop and you can power through with momentum.
 
Some things to try:
 
Get clear air at the start. You will get rolled by faster boats and dirty air is deadly. Tack away early if necessary. Sail your own race.
 
Keep tacks to a minimum since it may take longer to get back up to speed. Overstand the mark a little. Coming out of a tack build up speed before sheeting all the way in. The faster you go, the faster the wind and the higher you can point.
 
Beating to windward is all about the helmsman. There is a very narrow groove between pinching and being overtrimmed, which changes with every lift and header. Consider getting a tiller extension so you can sit forward enough to read the telltales.
 
You need enough halyard/luff tension going upwind. Leech cupping or fluttering is also bad.
 
You want as little rudder deflection as possible. Consider reefing even if noone else is reefed to reduce weather helm. Reefing also helps to flatten an otherwise baggy mainsail.

  Printing this out, and reviewing it on the water would be worthwhile IMHO.
 

The problem with the cabintop jib tracks on the Commander is getting a good lead to the primary winches. A track on the deck is going to have a similar problem getting the sheet around the coaming. I've been thinking about doing it, although I have a furling genoa.
 
Lots of factors go into windward performance. But, the bottom line is that you won't point as high as most other boats and you'll go slow trying.

  I have been tricked into trying to point with the other boats, and always came up wanting.  One helpful bit of advice I got was to get the boat going as fast as I could, that the best VMG was had when I was as close to hull speed as I could get.... when I followed that advice I did better.  It felt weird to be so far away from the 'pack' at first, but I really saw a difference in my overall times.
 
  The full batten main helped the boat point higher, but that probably had much to do with the age of the old main.

[mrgnstrn]

Lucky Dawg is lacking a good sail inventory. I am looking into "new" used sails from suppliers per your recommendations (Atlantic, Bacon, etc). Curious about an all around genoa that I could use with a CDI Flexible Furler. I have the sail dimensions as below. NEW main and 135% genoa seem to be about 2200-2800+.  135, 155, ?

I happen to be in a similar situation with my new boat.  Because it is not good use of my time to buy a sail, trial fit it, only to find out that it is horribly wrong, I made up an excel spreadsheet that shows what it would look like versus my rig.

I have attached a version for the Ariel.  It shows the mast and forestay, and plots the outlines of each of the named jibs (#1, #2, working, storm, drifter).

Have at it.  I found it a useful tool to visualize if a particular sail was in the right ball park or not.
There is even one sail that I have called "trial jib", where you put in whatever dimensions you are looking at, to compare it to the rest of the jibs.
Also note that I wrote this with having roller furling installed.  So there is a value called "DRUM", to take account for the tack of the sail not being on the deck.  If you have no roller furling, just enter " 0 " for this value, and it will show all your sails tacked tothe deck.
I just guessed that the drum takes up ~9 or so inches of luff length.  Adjust to suit.

Enjoy!

-Keith
C&C 35

PS, I still wish I could have kept my Ariel (along with the new boat).  There are days when a simple main-jib-tiller setup would be lovely.

That being said, I am always looking for enthusiastic crew for wednesday night races on my C&C.

[Ed Ekers]

I need some tips on getting this boat to point higher

 Don't know what your wind conditions are, but you might want to try adjusting the tension on your jib halyard. This should change the angle on the entrance to the wind and might let you sail a bit higher.

[Hull376]

So here's an interesting boat performance issue.  A friend of mine sent me a furling J/24 Jib as he is racing his boat and only uses hank on headsail.  I haven't used it--- my standard headsail is a furling 155%.  My Ariel working jib is shot and it needs to be replaced.  But how would it perform with the aspect ratio of the J/24?  The Ariel jib is 115 sq ft, the J/24 is about 120 sq ft.  Ariel Luff-26.6, Foot-10' 4", Leach 25'.   J/24 Luff 22.3, Foot 12' 10", Leach- 19'.  See the comparison in the plot below (Keith, what a handy tool!). Ariel = Light Blue, J/24= Red.

What happens to performance versus the standard Ariel jib?  One who gets the best prediction before I try it out wins a......errr...... nothing!:D

[Ed Ekers]

We had a jib that was similar to the J cut. We tried it out in one design racing on the SF Bay our first year. What we found was that we had too much sail up high. In our wind conditions (20+knts) a lower cut sail would always out perform a high clew sail. You could sail faster and higher with what was termed a "deck sweeper". I believe the reason was a high clew sail would cause the boat to heel more. Under the right conditions I think the higher cut sail would do well (more wind up high).

If you try it out I would be interested to hear what you think.

[ebb]

I'll take what Ed says about sailing as the god's own truth.  Everyskipper wants his boat to sail as fast and efficiently as possible.  If deck sweepers are more efficient and speedy sails then I'm listening.  Soon Little Gull will have to get her new suit of sails.

Mainly, the reason for high clew staysails is for vision forward, right?.  Especially shorthanded, the ability to see where you're going is comforting.


Is it possible to 'scandalize' a staysail by reefing the clew?  That is, reducing the decksweeping action of the sail by folding  or rolling the sail UP to a higher clew point?  

And conversely, after leaving crowded waters, the clew could be shaken out and the sail returned to its more effective shape.

Has this been done?  Does the sail need to be cut differently,  or can this actually be done casually?  Be nice to have the option.

[Bill]

Is it possible to 'scandalize' a staysail by reefing the clew?  That is, reducing the decksweeping action of the sail by folding  or rolling the sail UP to a higher clew point

Why not just a large window?

[Ed Ekers]

I have to say ebb some times your come up with some "very" different ideas. I suppose you can trim a sail any way you want to. I mean there are people sailing around today being pulled by kites. Efficient - who knows? Fun – Hell Yea!

I have not seen anyone reef a jib as you described. Given the sheet angle I don't know if the deck is long enough to trim the sail. Throw in a long pendant for the tack and you have one more thing that is going to get fouled (Murphy). But what the heck lets try it.

All that said, I don't want to leave the impression that a high clew sail is less efficient. It is just not the sail I want to use under normal SF conditions. But with wind under 20 and a little calmer water, than our bay during an ebb, the high clew sail is very versatile in my opinion. High clew gives you options that a sweeper doesn't.  

And thank you for the vote of confidence.........ed

[ebb]

Thanks for entertaining the novice, guys.
Can see, by simply looking at Keith's diagram that the larger the sail the lower the clew - because it is a simple matter of running out of deck for proper sheeting.  Really would be clewless for longfoot sails.

Our 'working jib' seems to be the best all round foresail of the regular low tack sails.  With a 110 coming in as a close second.  (the 110 is not diagramed on the visual, but I would assume a slightly lower clew.)  Correct?

Light air sails, which are the big ones, are not working per se but are speed sails.  Not exactly, I can see that a NO.1 would be very useful for getting a boat back home in failing wind.  Keeping the boat at "running man" speed at all times is what the foresail selection is about.

It is possible that the light air NO. 1, NO. 2 and Drifter COULD have a reef along the bottom of the sail much like the main.  In effect shortening the sail considerably.  They could then be raised or lowered with the halyard for positioning.  Of course that is probably a useless exercise.

[We did have a lively 76 post 'Roller Furler' discussion in the past.  I don't mean to bring that up again]
Non racing A/C's would more than likely have a furler.  (High tack, and perhaps this is why you don't race with furlers?)
My wish for this gear would be that it would let the sail out and hold it in a working jib or 110 position with a perfect set.  In other words the furler would be designed for the half furled position.  We have had this discussion before and I understand that foresail reefers do not exist.
The furler would also unfurl out to a NO. 2 where the shape is more casual let's say.  And of course, furl it up totally.  
Could this gear be designed to hold at working jib position with a perfect foil?

(Will say that I'm disappointed that a no-aluminum foil foresail reefing system has yet to be invented, except for the screecher.  These flyers are not able to take air-foil shape like the into-the-wind working jib.  I'm a forward lowering mast guy.  Can't we have a working-jib screecher? Scoocher?
 I really think a clean wire forestay is the best of all worlds!)


Can furlers be used for class racing?  Why not?

[Ed Ekers]

The A/C class jib is a very good sail. I think you would enjoy your 110 a little more. When we go out we fly a 120 almost always. I think it is Capt Pete who has the praise for a 150 and a reef. With our 120 jib we can take on just about any conditions we find and be very comfortable. A 120 and a reef is an easy sail in 20 – 30 knts.

Can a headsail have a reef along the foot?
 You bet. In fact I would say that is the preferred way. By shorting the sail you achieve the best of all conditions. The sail chord is maintained, allowing you to maintain shape, and the construction of the sail is still effective. The heavier loads are still where the cloth is the strongest. Here is a link that had a bit of a discussion on it.  
 http://www.sailnet.com/forums/seamanship/6980-headsail-reefpoints.html

And just for the heck of it here is a link that talks about sail shape, cut and trim.

http://www.wb-sails.fi/news/98_11_PerfectShape/Main.htm

 A lot of the stuff I read has to do with performance but I think in understanding the fine points of performance sailing it makes one a better all around sailor. Setting a boat up to race is setting it up to sail efficiently. Plus while we are not racing anymore you never know when someone may take a snap shot of you I post it on this board.  

 Can furlers be used for class racing? Why not?
Sure they can. In fact in some classes that is all they use. I worked on an Antrim 27 for three years and all we had was a class jib and a roller. There are a number of classes that do that. But I agree with you  "I really think a clean wire forestay is the best of all worlds!"

[mrgnstrn]

I'll take what Ed says about sailing as the god's own truth.  Everyskipper wants his boat to sail as fast and efficiently as possible.  If deck sweepers are more efficient and speedy sails then I'm listening.  Soon Little Gull will have to get her new suit of sails.

Mainly, the reason for high clew staysails is for vision forward, right?.  Especially shorthanded, the ability to see where you're going is comforting.


Is it possible to 'scandalize' a staysail by reefing the clew?  That is, reducing the decksweeping action of the sail by folding  or rolling the sail UP to a higher clew point?  

And conversely, after leaving crowded waters, the clew could be shaken out and the sail returned to its more effective shape.

Has this been done?  Does the sail need to be cut differently,  or can this actually be done casually?  Be nice to have the option.

Ebb,

Not sure I understand your question, so let me play out two possibilities:

1. It is possible to attach the jib sheets to a higher clew position, but leave the tack alone?  My guess is that the sail shape would suffer, and not only that, but the loads on the sail would tend to stretch it across the bias, not how the stretch was intended. (PS, I got "Sailrites" manual of jib sail design and construction----> VERY Good even if you don't plan on building a sail.  It goes through where to put shape into a sail, how and why, then shows you how to align the fabric to achieve minimum stretch.  ever notice how all hte panels are perpendicular to the leech.... "to achieve minimum stretch" is why)

2. is it possible to have a set of reef points on a jib just like on a mainsail.  YES!  I even inherited a sail that looks like this.  There is a second Tack and Second Clew a few feet up from the regular clew and tack.  This requires you to lower the halyard just like a mainsail.  good because you can keep a sail up and still reef (no need to go bareheaded).  Not as good because likely the sail is too full for the conditions that require you to reef.  But good as a first reefing step.

-Keith

ps, glad to see my spreadsheet going to use.  You can hide "extraneous" sails on the graph by just plugging in "0" for the luff, leech, and foot.