Tiller Discussions

[mbd]

I over-drilled all the holes, taped and q-tipped epoxy throughout.

At this point, it was obvious I needed to do something to "snug" the fit better. I wet out the butt end and added fiberglass mat over the part that was carved out, and then wrapped a couple of layers of cloth all the way around the tiller. Over that, I added a layer of wax paper and then clamped the tiller fitting onto the end of the tiller.

[mbd]

I let it set up for a few hours, then removed the fitting and wax paper. Tomorrow, I'll clean ip up and redrill the bolt holes.

At this point, I figure I'm covered. I drilled through the top of the fitting as Ebb suggested, then wrapped it in fiberglass as Bill suggested. And, to paraphrase CPete,  if it's not right, I can always sand it all off and do it again - or buy one of those really nice tillers earlier in this thread. (I'd really like to get Tiller "G" above like Admin Bill's...)  

[Tony G]

?Pardon the workmanship?  You're hired!  How soon can you make it over to Northern Minnesota?

That looks like a top notch rehab for the tiller you started this thread with!  When are you going to try it out?  And, of course, take pictures:cool:

Geeez, I can't even remember where I put my tiller...woe.

[ebb]

Mike,  Great photos of your tiller rehab.  Just what the doctor ordered for those damn delams.

It's too bad so much carving has to be done to get the tiller to fit the head.


Current online Defender catalog pictures only "F" style tillers from H&L.  Some look like they are 'on sale.'
These do certainly seem to be the tiller style that MaiTai has.  I don't know what size Bill has.  They come in different lengths and widths.  And at the moment Defender seems to be offering  all the non-custom F style tillers that H&L makes.

I don't know what is best.  Believe that racers might want a tidier version because of extra knees - while a cruiser might go for a longer one to make it easy to reach areas of the cockpit and still have a bodypart on the tiller.

Perhaps the time has come for that spare?
I've ordered the big one.  Figure I can always cut it shorter and trim the sides down.....

[Tim D.]

I've ordered the big one.  Figure I can always cut it shorter and trim the sides down.....

The big one being ?, #__________

Thanks Tim

[ebb]

612322>Mod130F (Santana 22/27) 45"L - butt 1 5/16"X2"H........62.99
612323>Mod1251F (J-24) 48 1/2"L - butt 1 12/32"X2 1/8H.........64.99
612324>Mod1252F (J-30)  54 1/2"L - butt 2 3/8"X2 1/2"...........102.99
612318>Mod101F (Cal 20/21) 60" - butt 1 5/8"X2"H..................68.99
612319 Mod105F (Cal 25) 48" - butt 1 5/8"X2H........................63.99
612320>Mod112F (Ranger 26/28) 43"L - butt 1 1/2"X2""............62.99

I'd call H&L and ask what the rise is for the tillers you are interested in.
The rise is, as I understand it, the height the S makes measured from the bottom of the butt.  Maybe they have a fax-able data sheet???
So if you had that measurement and have the length and assume a fair curve (because  tillers are bent wood the S curve won't be too radical) you could fake a decent representation of a tiller on cardboard - and see if that is what you want in the cockpit.  You need  two measurements: the rise and the length measured along the same horizontal the butt rests on.

It's an assumption this group of H&L "F" tillers are all proportionate to their length.  In other words that they are all scaled versions of one another.
Seems unlikely considering these are class tillers and may have to conform to original designer specs and class  racing rules. While Defender has 6 'F' tillers listed online (and the lowest prices), pyacht lists 16 class tillers in the 'F' design - more expensive but not near as ridiculous as rigrite.

I  felt  the Cal 20/21 was too long and skinny for me and ordered the J-30 because of its extra lams.  Have other ideas for a tiller head and felt I needed a hefty tiller to play with.
Shortening one of these  tillers, if so desired, would consist of cutting short or long on a fairly healthy length of butt-end these tillers all look like they have.
The 5 footer may well be the ideal off the shelf customizer for the Ariel.  And the Commander too.

INPUT...INPUT...NEED INPUT... PLEASE RESPOND..


It's important to have a comfortable tiller.  When you're reaching around for it in the dark you'd want it to be there above seat-level, easy to grab, right where it ought to be.
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These are current Memorial Day Defender prices 2008.  (and they may have changed.)  Copied the data as best I did,  but it may be screwed up.  
Gas prices this holiday are above $4gal and rising - all prices are skyrocketing.  The only thing that'll be cheaper tomorrow is the dollar.:eek:

[mbd]

Still needing varnish, but I'm out of time. The "sea trial" is tomorrow - launch day. This revised tiller comes in at a mere 38 1/2". But, I'm hoping it'll be more out of the way in my cozy cockpit. I'll report back on how well or not it works.

Not sure what to do with the bolt sticking out - just cut it off? There must be a more elegant way...

[mbd]

Not sure of the relevance of this, but when I was cleaning up the tiller head, it had #12 stamped on it.

[ebb]

The tiller I ordered  from Defender arrived this afternoon.
It's marked as an "F" tiller, and bearing the maker's number as 1252F, I think.
But is

NOTHING LIKE THE PICTURE IN THE ONLINE DEFENDER CATALOG

and is totally unlike the drawings in the Custom and Stock list under the H&L logo.

The tiller has hardly any rise at all.
It is the vaguest S shape you can imagine.  It is for all intents and purposes a Straight tiller. More like an "A" or a "B" in the drawings.

H&L Marine Woodwork, Inc., the maker of what seems to be the only laminated tillers commercially made, seems to be alive and well.  They will be getting a call from me on Monday morning - and also Defender.

I don't even want this thing I got as a backup!!!
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VERY nice lady at H&L faxed me the ax on their tillers.  Seems that the "F" I picked up out of the Defender catalog (1252F) referred to F as in Finished, varnished.
The tiller shape Defender shipped is an "A" style.  Which is clear, probably, on the illustrations from the posts above.
YES, you and I probably want the "F" style rudder - BUT the price list and the Class boat tiller all use the confusing F  (for Finish - why not V for Varnish?) in their list.  None of the tillers are described by their shape or alphabetical model.   So unless you know the shape of  Class boat tillers you have to ask H&L.   I received a full page rendition of their ready-made tillers that are very close to inch to foot scale, making them very easy to scale up  full size.

I'll fake a full size rep of their F tiller (51"X7 1/2"rise - H&L #137) used on the Ranger 33 and trial it in Little Gull's cockpit.  Its shape is really cool,  I'll be able to make minor adjustments  and decide if it's OK, or make an exact model  of more radical changes to send.  Or laminate my own.

First,
the "F' shape tiller I'm referring to is the tiller in the drawings that is bowed   most of its length - then esses quickly down into the butt.  Of the two S shape tillers pictured it is the longer one.  Since our tillerhead rests at an angle to the cockpit sole, I'm only guessing that the chord in the bow (that the shorter one doesn't have) will more likely get the handle  horizontal at seat height.  Which I feel is ideal.  We'll see.  It would be so convenient to have a off the self whenever  needed.


Second,
According to my informant, when referring to the Class boat tillers, only two of this pattern fit the bill.
1157F ERICSON 27 - 2"X2" - 46 3/4"L with a 5" rise. - $69.98.
137F   RANGER 28 & 33 - 1 7/8"W X 2 1/4"D - 51"L with a 71/2" rise. $84

It would seem that the Ranger tiller would do.   But in the resting/down position is the rise correct and the handle in the best position?
To me, but I may be wrong, the best resting position has the handle more or less horizontal.  Casually steering while sitting would not need the tiller to be lifted..... effortless.  Maybe easier to rig the auto-pilot and figure out self-steering modes.

Third,
She said you can have a custom tiller made for about the same price! 3 weeks.  So, if you want more length, or more rise, send them a pattern.  Might send them a pattern and ask them to close match it to  tiller mold they  don't always make.  Don't see how they can do a 'one off' for a price close to regular ones.    

If anybody has input on this it would be great.
1) Especially on the length - a tiller could be... too long - pro and cons. The longer the tiller the easier to move the rudder.
2) Rise - a tiller could come out of the tiller head and end up at the other end in an uncomfortable position for extended steering, sitting or standing.  The last thing I'd want is a tiller that bugged me.  What's ideal?

Fourth,
Defender will take the tiller back.  But guess who pays UPS?
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Prices are current as  faxed to me.  They have gone up.
We can order directly from H&L.  I wouldn't mind a custom tiller one bit - if it was the perfect fit for the cockpit.  Ordering from the maker means all the widths, depths and lengths are up-front.  I would want to do the finishing. IE soak it first in penetrating epoxy.
The mahogany in the laminations looks like philippine lauan.  
Every lamination in the "A' tiller that's going back shows flawless pieces.
 
 Purists will have to put up with the lams 'running out' on the bottom of all these tillers as they taper toward the handle.  A good reason for vigilance in varnishing.  If I  go  custom, I'll ask if the tiller can be put back in the mold after initial taper routing and  have a full length bottom piece glued  over the run-outs before final rounding and shaping.  Never know!

[ebb]

Made a quick full scale  doorskin pattern of the H&L Model F Ranger 30  tiller.
Took it  to the cockpit with all the anticipation of a first date.
It might be OK for some skippers.
[And the main assumption is that at least a third of the tiller length at rest will be above legs in the front of the cockpit.  On paper the Ariel cockpit is a four adult capacity - but in use it's really a two seater.  The tiller up, it's a four, maybe a five. Probably have trouble sorting legs back out.]

I cut about 2" off the butt. (The tillerhead can only take 5" of wood.)  
That put the tip of the handle end about 18" away from the vertical edge of the bridgedeck.  That seems pretty good.  The length of the tiller at this point is a little less than 50".
The handle end, however, points up  - at about the same angle as the tiller head at the other end.  Feel that a level handle feels better under the palm.  

The mounted tillerhead is of course 90 degrees to the shaft.  
The shaft enters the cockpit floor at about 59 to 61 degrees.  
That means the tillerhead in relation to the sole is at an attitude of about 30 degrees.  
HOWEVER, because of the 60 degree shaft angle the tiller curves downward as you swing it toward the seats.  So extra height may be a good thing.  You know, with seat cushions and chunky legs, the tiller could still be too low!  

And it just happens  that the handle of this test model points up at about 30 degrees.  Quick check on the height off the deck to the dimple at the end of the handle is approx 33.5"  Which is a nice height imco BUT, if anybody is following this,
the height of my shaft exiting the rudder tube is about 6" off the deck.  I believe it protrudes more then most people have it.   I don't remember anymore where the height should be.  But that seems reasonable and I will probably keep it there.  It helps to get the tiller off the floor!  Measuring to the bottom of the tillerhead from the cockpit deck put it at 9 1/4".
(I use a 1" wood dowel mock up and the finished rudder may not have the same shaft length.)  You can't add too much length or the tiller'll be in the lazarette.

SO, I can see a tiller LIKE this one, same height, but with more pronounced bow or chord.
Same tiller but bent more from mid curve.  
Estimate that curving the handle down about 3 1/2" would get the handle close to the ideal level - and have the H&L patent dimple at the end of the tiller around 30" off the deck with the tiller housed.  It's reasonable to assume that two people sitting opposite in the fore part of the cockpit will be able to have the tiller down and not in the way of sandwiches and grog.  
I'll redraw the pattern  and send it to H&L after executing the doorskin shuffle.  It's probably a pretty radical shape so I'm prepared to laminate my own.  But at this point I'd rather purchase.  This curvey tiller might be a bear to laminate.

Can see that as usual I have made the assumption that the ideal tiller is one that leaves the tillerhead ASAP and curves up above human knees if at all possible.  This may not be ideal or shippy for everybody.  


It would be great to know where the tillerhead is in relation to the deck on people's Ariels.  Measure up at 90 degress to the end of the metal tillerhead. In regards to finding the almost perfect tiller.

See you later at ebb's gallery.

[commanderpete]

H & L made me a tiller based on the drawing at pg. 83 in the Manual.

I have a notation that their part number may be "obsolete tiller handle # 1162"

Something a bit flatter at the tip might be nice

[commanderpete]

One more pic, not sitting on a cushion

[mbd]

Here's the shortened tiller installed. (38 1/2")  I think it'll work out fine and the shorter version will make for more room in a crowded Ariel cockpit...

[mbd]

I got some Mahogany flavored LifeCalk and filled the spaces where water could get in.  We'll see how long this one lasts.

[ebb]

Mike, personally, I believe you have a first class fix there!

Altogether a great renovation.

Imco your smoothing the transition without abrupt cutting of the fatter tiller into the metal tillerhead the way you did is the best way  The tiller should last as long as the wood holds out.  The lams are no longer part of a problem.

I also like the 'button' shape of the carriage bolt heads.  Usually don't see them with thick edges like that - and they also seem flatter than the higher dome usually seen.  Handsome fastenings, those.