Exterior Wood Finishes

[Lucky Dawg]

Doing some research yesterday...  Took my prepped hatch boards to my friend Jamie at Van's Refinishing here locally.  Good guy, nice furniture finishing and restoration work.  He repaired my coamings back when I restored the deck.  He suggested stain, paste filler, varnish.  

Then I saw this video from the Wood Whisperer http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com/videos/coloring-blotchy-woods/?as=blotchy&mode=posts&ap=1 who suggests shellac, gel stain, ...Shellac comparison / demo & then Minwax vs gel stain is the subject of the video.  

Watched another helpful vid series on applying paste filler to mahogany https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQfm0nLXJ7Q

I suspect 100 videos, 100 opinions.

Decisions, decisions.  Glad I'm not in a hurry.

[ebb]

Here's a Florida based pro varnisher who works in humidity and heat.
Since most varnishing anywhere will be attempted at better weather moments,
Vicente Williams has some very interesting tricks to reveal...
google Varnish Teak
http://varnishteak.blogspot.com

He mentions, but doesn't quote,  Rebecca Wittman, who wrote the book on the subject.
Doesn't need to, actually.
 
He prefers to work outdoors.
   
My caution is to professionally respect the volatile solvents
that are part & parcel of traditional corporate varnish products we have accepted into our life.

Thinners, reducers, driers, de-greasers can shorten your varnish days
 - and bestow upon you, not only  lasting gloss,
but quality of living problems.

There are 4 blogs in this collection,  all interesting!

[sinbin]

I like your furniture man's suggestions.  Yours will look like a piece of furniture, while mine looks like a varnished garage door.  Watch out for shellac.  It's an interior product, sometimes used to seal stain, but tricky.

[sinbin]

Regarding the article referred by Ebb:  I concur up to the point of using Cetol gloss over spar varnish, which I've never done.  Having done this for a living, I can only recommend the "kiss it" method:  first coat stain, second coat sanding sealer for high build, and then on to spar varnish, as many coats as your masochism can tolerate.  The man's advice about thinning was right on.  "Sinbin" gets a thinned coat of varnish every 6 months.

[ebb]

Put it to 3M in an email:  What product can we use that will leave NOTHING behind
on the sanded surface...specifically when sanding between varnish coats.
My question to them mentioned stearate, latex and other coating  added to the
paper surface over the  grit  that is meant to provide anti-clogging.

Here is the prompt answer from JohnLyman
3M Customer Contact Center
Product and Application Support
Industrial Business 800-285-3215 x 58

"We would suggest our wet or dry products 413Q or 431Q for your application.
413Q has an A weight paper backing and is available in grades 220-600.
431 has a C weight backing and is available in grades *60-180.

413Q....Use wet with water or dry.  Stays flexible and cuts fast
............Use for sanding old finishes, fine featheredging, surface sanding
or last final sanding step before priming.  UPC 051144-02000 to 02007.

431Q....Silicone Carbide.  Can be run wet or dry.  Heavy duty for increased durability.
............Use wet to reduce clogging and extend abrasive life.
............Composite, metalworking, **MRO, paint preparation.
............UPC 051144-02015 = 150Cwt//  -02016 = 120Cwt//  -02017 = 180Cwt//
-02018 = 80Cwt...."  
*60Cwt does not appear here on his spread.  (which I have condensed a bit)
**MRO = Maintenance, Repair & Overhaul.
These BLACK papers are 9x11 - and are also known as Tri-M-ite. (wud-U-say?)

This ends this 3M Product Support email... & THIS LEAVES OUT ALL
of the 3M Gold finishing papers (I've been using) for varnish work.

Go with silicone carbide between coats to insure there is no coating on the grit
 to contaminate the surface you are toothing.

Not all silicon carbide papers are stearate free... as this 3M product seems to be.
3M also sells GREY  (426U) open coat stearate coated s.carbide paper.
Sold to use for general sanding including paint & VARNISH.  Do not use this paper.
 
3M 413Q/431Q are closed coat.  This means there are no gaps, however minimal,
between the grits.  This will not become a problem mounted on a hard rubber block.  
But open coat, when sanding by hand  with a folded piece, for instance,  can scratch
the surface unevenly.  Non-coated closed  coat is  going to clog or corn...but so will
open coat if that's what's happening with the varnish.  Try to decorn the grit:  
Compressed air, if you have it, new brass or stainless wire brushes, and dental pick
for stubborn flakes.  Cleaning with a rubber belt cleaner,  I assume none of the rubber
crumbles transfer to the surface being sanded.  'Credit card'  corners are useful, too.  

Some varnishers wet sand between coats.  Never have - but may try it.   Some say
wet sanding not yet 100% cured varnish is possible.  Wet sanding makes no dust.
............................................................................................................................

For those who want to seal their wood with epoxy,   and want to get a head start on
grain filling using epoxy...if you can get the coating to lay  down flat,  and you have
enough epoxy on the surface,  you can wet sand the seal coat and get a huge start on
the seemingly endless coats you need to fill the grain from telegraphing.   However,
you can't sand through to wood when wet sanding.  The slurry is bound to blotch raw
wood. It'll probably stain & show thru, no  matter what you do to make it disappear.
Avoiding hard work, I'm 'content' with  two coats and dry sanding.  Varnish to level.
A somewhat esoteric woodworker's tool will be perfect here for cutting the tops off
hardened dust specks and dribbles.  Steel cabinet scraper.  Chesapeake Light Craft.
//www.clcboats.com
You guys who insist on using beta epoxies from WetsSystem that amine blush,  I
would first wash it off only with warm water and dish detergent - before wet sanding.

CPES from Smith&Co has been known to blush.  Try using the fast hardner.  Don't
believe CPES penetrates any deeper than slightly xylene-thinned laminating epoxy***.  
Don't use CPES.  But if you do, wash it before coating with another epoxy or varnish.
***100% solids  (no solvents in formula) two part 2x1 laminating (structural) epoxy.
............................................................................................................................
TEST: Coamings will be finished on all six sides, so there is plenty of hidden space to
perform  this famous test to see if your varnish coat(s) is sticking to the previous one.  
Select an area where a small 3/4"x3/4" square can be cross-hatched into the varnish
(after it has completely dried) with a utility knife.  Keep cuts close, about 1/16" apart.
Take a piece of your stickiest tape and burnish it with a screwdriver handle onto the
 damage you just created.   When you pull it off with a quick tug...you don't want to
see anything attached to the tape.  Houston, we have a problem here!
This reminder comes from http://www.ronbryze.com/sanding/sandpaper_info.htm
where you will find his basic intro into the gritty mystery of types and numbers.....
How-to-use tips are very hard to find.  Probably because everybody hates sanding!


Feedback on this silicon carbide paper trick for varnishing is much appreciated!

[sinbin]

Wet or dry sandpaper 150 to 180 grit for varnish sanding sealer will suffice.  As I understand it, the ancient Chinese used to do their lacquering out at sea to get away from the dust.  Next best thing to a spray booth, I guess.  Best results when spar varnishing by hand can be acheived by keeping the varnished surfaces as vertical as possible, keeping a vacuum handy, working on a wind free day, etc.  
   OOO steel wool is another way to go for abrasion.  You might consider wiping with a tack rag just before the next coat. Sanding into the wood will screw everything up, that's why we use sanding sealer for its high build. Semi gloss varnish will serve to hide a lot of sins on a fifty year old surface and also will last longer than the gloss due to the inclusion of flatting agents.
     Finally, when you're ready to throw up your hands, consider rubbing it out after it's dry with a square or three of the brown masking paper- not the green stuff, as it has a wax coating.
     Whew! Time for a beer.

[ebb]

.......................................................................................................................................
Kind of a question here.  Finally took the time to watch LuckyDawg's second blue line,
a three part video presentation from The Master's Touch, Furniture Repair.net.   Sorry
to miss the presenter's name...
From an antique furniture point of view, where our boats certainly fit,  his method
will work, I think, for a restoration.  Probably taking the old varnish off down (mostly)
to the wood.   One problem I have is that shellac and lacquer are not liquids usual to
refurbishing the exterior woods of an Ariel or Commander.  So substituting flexible
exterior varnishes in the system may take some adjustment of sealers and fillers(?)

And I wonder what that is?  I think a brilliant waterborne dye stain, is the way to go
on raw wood.  This will soak in, so slight sanding accidents will be forgiven.  What
product, don't know.  But on mahogany, imco, I will choose a bright 'mahogany' red
like the Interlux stain/filler color shown on the Varnish Lovers site.

Grain next?  If we are going to a petro system, then the brown paste filler method is OK.
There is certainly a fine demo of how to apply the stuff in the videos.   The dark pigment,
can be argued,  will help with UV protection.   I have a problem with it:  Too bloody dark.
Don't want the grain dark. My inclination is to go with a clear gel filler.*  Haven't
experience  with that.    Be great to see a demo. And a technical data sheet.  

However, imco,  the wood must be sealed FIRST, on top of the dye.  With the dark
filler,  sealer will probably be a petroleum product.  Something the filler will be cozy with.
It is not clear to me if the filler 'coat' after sanding has to be sealed, as well.   Or do we go
straight to varnish.  And the varnish, with this system, will be Epifanes, or a solvent based
petroleum varnish to be completely copacetic.  I've used Epifanes,  and like the result.  

But.... I am swearing off these varnishes and paints that require proprietary solvents to
apply properly.    Have to go with the other stuff.

So where does sealing with (100% solids, no solvent) epoxy fit in?  (Can't over oil base.)
Can  use a solvent thinned coat over a custom mix of J.E.Moser waterborne dye/stain.
Usually add a second epoxy coat unthinned, let it sit, but rub it off with cloth rags
before it  sets up. 3rd coat possible, for extra microns,  it's necessary to lightly sand 220.
{**Now, wondering if waterborne AquaCoat paste can, at this point, be
applied on top of the epoxy  which would avoid  having to flatten a hard all epoxy  filled
surface.}    Then move to whatever  varnish system blows yer skirt up.    
{ Epifanes is also applied over waterborne coatings and epoxy sealer. without problem.}
........................................................................................................................................
*AquaCoat waterborne clear gel filler.  Talked with the tech who has not had this
question  before.  There is nothing in the MSDS that suggests epoxy won't stick to
AquaCoat.  Product cozys perfectly with next step oil varnish.   My problem is making sure
a 100% solids laminating epoxy, as a sealer, sticks to the AquaCoat filler.    It is applied
just as  the brown poop on the Furniture video,  with final 'credit card' scraping for absolute
flatness.   Surface also has to be toothed,  but dyed wood cannot be scoured, except
perhaps,  VERY slightly.   It's critical that the epoxy sealer bonds to the surface.......
Better Way:
**How about reversing the process: fill the grain after the epoxy sealer...AquaCoat video
demonstrates a 3 coat filling process with very little sanding after the third coat.  
Steps from bare wood: Dye/stain - epoxy thin coat - second coat strate epoxy,  rubbed off
- block sand - 3 coats of AquaCoat filler - block sand  (filler applied on the sealer means
there are  a couple extra epoxy microns insurance that sanding won't break thru to raw
wood.)  Dry - then go to varnish with fewer layers to finish.  I'll certainly do a test...

   Most important coats on mahogany is certainly that final celebratory gloss coat,  but the  
first  sealer coat - the tie coat in my interpretation - on the bare dyed wood is the key.  
click videos http://aquacoat.com/
.......................................................................................................................................
Sorry, don't mean to appear pushy - but when looking for choices....  
I always seem to go against the grain.

[sinbin]

Ebb:  I haven't watched the video, but here is some info based on my experience. Oil based dye stains are for interior use and will fade in sunlight.  You might want to check the water borne variety. I've stayed away from the water borne products due to being an old dog, but they may require a sealer I'm not familiar with.  Paste wood filler is an oil base product used to fill porous grains e.g. oak floors and furniture.  It used to come in light and dark. I haven't seen it in use for years, but I believe it's applied first and sanded into the new wood (check with a furniture guy on that one).  Oil based wood conditioner is used to seal fir and pine prior to staining to get rid of dark blotches when the oil based stain is applied.  It will have the effect of lightening the stain when applied. I don't think it's necessary for teak, but I'm not sure.  Epiphanes is a fine product. As I remember it is oil based (check the label).  Shellac and lacquer are interior products.
    Here is a finish schedule for new shaped and sanded wood:  1) (Maybe) paste wood filler and sand. 2)  (Maybe) Wood Conditioner 3) Exterior stain. Check with Kelly Moore.  Cabot's Semi Transparent Stain should get you the look you want. 4) Sanding Sealer from Sherwin Williams - an interior product but it works for our purposes.  Sand the sealer, not the wood. Now apply Crawfords oil putty tinted to match for minor voids, etc. 5) Finish varnish.
     I'm not sure  if epoxy can be sanded, that's why I go with Sanding Sealer.
     Check with the boss or the sales rep at KM re water borne products and compatability.  Test your system on another piece wood, read the instructions on the label, and give it hell!

[ebb]

My radical Paleo diet requires I raise a goblet of Chardonnay rather than a good ale
to you,  Captain!:D

[sinbin]

Hope it works out for you, and don't forget - George You Know Who guarantees it.

[ebb]

Have Honduras for the coamings,  want them done up in an oil varnish, enhanced
with a glow like one of those fabulous fiery red mahogany Interlux filler/stains the
Varnish-Love Club guys use.  Sworn off petro now - no more volatile chemicals.  The
mahogany has myriad grain lines to fill.   Will not be using the dirty brown oil grain filler
- seen  on the Furniture Masters site, way too gloomy for my taste - anyway.
 
Not as easy: AquaCoat  waterborne clear gel filler on a hot dye may be the answer.  
It's not an exterior product...but onsite  photos show some  woodworkers use it on
outdoor furniture projects.  Doesn't prove anything - unless it's been there ten years.

There is no transparent dye/stain that will not fade in sunlight.  Some of the best  
metallic waterborne aniline dyes last longer than others,  but still must consider it
'interior'. Sunlight through a window will fade and degrade any organic object inside
a room.  Varnished  mahogany on the water is pretty ridiculous anyway,  thinking
about it.   Never saw no outdoor grand piano....or varnished ChrisCraft swinging
on  a mooring.   We do it anyway - do it for the WOW! - if nothing else, ten frickin
coats will delay the  mahogany from bleaching blond . Maybe...one more season.

Expect this new clear filler will do fine.  Am also guinea pig for a 100% LeTonkinois
varnish job,  which has no added material to make it more resistant to UV.   Am
persuaded that waterproofing the coamings is the most important first step.  
Epoxy  encapsulation stays healthy under varnish as long as it's  there to protect it
from UV.   Waterproofing is the best protection we have for ALL exposed wood.
Clear coats: damned if you do, damned if you don't. "Time for another coat, McDuff!"

The 'tech' I spoke with second time, turns out he is  proprietor of AquaCoat....Brian.
Cool!  Good guy... fending off this curmudgeon.   Ordered a couple qts of AquaCoat
filler,   but have to wait until the  weather gets above freezing for it to ship.  
Want to play around with his red mahogany waterborne dye.  He says the dye is the
best metallic aniline - we know waterborne dyes penetrate deeper than all others,
including alcohol. Couple qts UPS.  Possible to add J.E.Moser powder to kick the color...
I asked.

Like this:  After final sanding, want to dye the bare mahogany first,  before anything
else.  Asked what he thought,  if I then seal with 2 coats of clear laminating epoxy?
{Lightly sand - then fill the remaining grain with AquaCoat clear filler.  Sand  again
for tooth to varnish....thinking that there'll be a few extra microns of separation
from  the dyed  wood thanks to the epoxy coats....for cautious sanding.}

Added, "Imagine that minor sanding glitches of exposed bare wood could be toucht
up easily by passing a damp stain rag over the surface.  Rub it dry, nobody notices."
Brian didn't  like the idea because it can  create weirdness wherever it gets into pores.  
( he didn't use the word 'weirdness')  But if a retouch is noticed in a particularly clear  
bright finish, it'll be a....disaster.   {But I'm thinking,  tops of tiny peaks, not lakes.}
This method assumes that in sync with water dye, epoxy will bond to bare wood.

He suggested a variation:   after staining is completed,  fill the grain with AquaCoat.
 Filler is  'credit carded',  flat as possible, in two or three coats, with the least amount
of sanding  necessary. {Very hard to estimate that - and attaining a flat surface is
absolutely necessary for a  fine finish.  So, the step has to be included in the system.
The dyed wood  surface is right there under, but not under,  the filler.  Scarey.  
Even if the prep is finessed by an artist,  there'd be hardly anything to sand...even
lightly. The surface legitimately needs to be prepared for the next step... Epoxy.}
 
BUT, more importantly,  if  epoxy sealer here  is put  on top of a  'lesser' coating,  
it's unable to bond to bare wood.  Main purpose of  epoxy  is structural, not cosmetic.

well, that's my argument,  and it may have given Brian a moment to agree with the
first method.   But he can't give his 'blessing',  that's my hook.  Have to experiment.
Problem with our coamings is that they are NOT furniture.  Like hand rails, rub rails,
even the companionway trim and drop boards... they have work to do, & perform.
..................................................................................................................................
"How long will Epoxy survive sunlight" http://www.oneoceankayaks.com/Epoxtest.htm
Very well done study comparing 6 epoxies, by Vaclav Stejskal

............Anybody else think they might go the waterborne route??.............
'Traditional' varnish coating.  No waterborne varnish No Bristol No polyurethane No
Cetol. (Clear coatings all burn in sun UV.  Some get ugly - become a PITA to remove  
or maintain.  Ergo:  oil varnish is not nice - except to look at - but more forgiving.)
.......................................................................................................................................

[sinbin]

This is  getting to be pretty exotic and out of my limited realm of knowledge.  You might try to find a wood filler that accepts stain.

[ebb]

Haven't tried it.
Dye supplier, J.E.Moser, has a clear paste wood filler that won't shrink & is easily sanded.  
What makes a paste filler easily sanded?  Let's check out its Exotic Content:

MSDS
"Section II.  Hazardous Ingredients
J.E.Moserr's Grain-Fil Clear Paste Wood Filler

Acrylic Resins - *CAS#: Proprietary
Urethane Polymers - CAS#: Proprietary
Water - CAS#: 7732-18-5  
Propoxy Propoxy Butanol - CAS#: 29911-28-2
Synthetic Amorphous Silica - CAS# 63231-67-4
**Polyethermodifieddimethylpolysiloxa - CAS#: Proprietary
Propylene Glycol - CAS#: 57-55-6"

This list is ONLY the Hazardous Ingredients , including evidently:  Water - CAS#: 7732-18-5

PRODUCT DESCRIPTION
"May be tinted with water based dyes and pigments."
Assume that means mixed into the paste, not after cure.
"Compatible with oil or water based stains and finishes."
Except for the frankenstein ingredients, sounds like neat stuff.
Doesn't ship to California and Oregon.  http://woodworker.com/grain-fil-mssu-922-828.asp
We don't need no hazardous water 'round heah!
.............................................................................................................................................
* CAS  Chemical Abstracts Service.  a chemical data base of the ACS.
Probably have to be a member.
Imagine looking up one of those composite numbers,  and being able to understand what it said.
.............................................................................................................................................
**Polyether,  a silicone/urethane hybrid,  known as the 'other choice' of 4 synthetic tube
rubbers  available from your local marine emporium.  Silicone, p.urethane, p.sulfide, p.ether.
The rest of the germanic creation, after 'modified',  is the long  word for PDMS silicone grease.
Whatzit doing in grain filler?  {Argg-g! (cascass... Ca KASSs)... something in my throat.}
Sand this Proprietary filler and spread silicone  all over the work...don't think so!
............................................................................................................................................
Thread: Silicone is truly evil. - Pearson Ariel
//www.pearsonariel.org > Forum > Ariel Association > Technical

This hazardous ingredient  (J.E.Moser is right about that!), 'PDMS, is an optically clear, non-toxic,
non--flammable, inert polymer otherwise known as silicone oil or grease.'  wiki
EXOTIC FASTFOOD  
Scrambled eggs at McDonaalds are made with eggs and an  'egg-blend' that incudes PDMS.  It's
also in the oil that browns Chicken McNuggets & French fries, where it acts as an anti-frothing
agent.  It's the sil in SillyPutty.  Found in 1000s of shampoos, shaving cremes, and beauty products.
It's everywhere,  rubber gaskets, roofing caulks, sealants, (and it's the evil oil in your gelcoat.)  wiki

What mental process decides it's good to  EAT THIS CHEMICAL?   What makes it edible?
Where is it written that this synthetic oil is not toxic to the human digestive track and liver?
Who said OK to this? .... our pals: The American Chemical Society,  and  McUSFDA.
...........................................................................................................................................
not going to order it today.  Or a McPolymer
This grain filler, rather innocuous, is a waterborne non-flammable material packaged in a can.
Why illegal in California?  A couple alcohols, couple resins, water, couple edible chemical oils:
silicon & propylene glycol,  a little  fumed silica to make things jello. What's not to like?

[sinbin]

That's pretty esoteric stuff.  You might consider performing the job in Vegas.

[ebb]

Varnishing is a bit of a crapshoot.  
The house (the manufacturers) have the edge.
So when you're laying down your luster on the coamings,  in a way you're betting that the
outcome will be in your favor.
A fabulous varnish job attempts to perpetuate the myth that you're smart - and can afford
the luxury of  time and money it takes to keep the camouflage perfect and envious.  
Luck, of course, has nothing to do with it.
It's all in how you played the varnish game.

If we're looking for entertainment, we could take in the casino's Penn and Teller magic act.
 
Can see an opening knife throwing performance by The Whistleblowers whose Chemcorp,
CIA,  and  Federal Public Health Official targets are  standing on stage in revolving doors.  
The participants appear to be dressed in wet rubber suits, but in reality each is  covered,  
head to toe,  in crystal clear, non-toxic, non-flammable, inert PDMS grease.....
Which gives them an edge.  
Obviously it's an illusion.:rolleyes: