rudder discussions

[Hull376]

Also, my experience with the gaps between the planks when on the hard and the rudder has dried out a little bit completely disappear when submerged in the water. Those gaps are nonexistent when the boat is first hauled. My existing rudder is constructed with drift pins.

[ebb]

OK, hope this helps.  Happen to still have the rudder that came with (then called SunQuest)


I found the worn groove in the cup to be wide but the machining in the bottom of the groove was
still pretty tight. So rather than custom making a truncated key out of larger key rod (which later
wld be stupid to replace) I used regular square 1/4" and added two set screws thru the side of
the cup and cone-pointed them into the key -- seems pretty tight!!

Sorry seems so complicated.  But you  do have actual measures here,  but whether it's Factory
it's probably not exact.  But Could be!!!

The litlgull hydrofoil rudder is covered on ebb's gallery page.





WOW look at nthis most of this mpost erased itself    (anybody download it??"?""?"?"?"?

[Hull376]

Hey Ebb, thanks for the quick reply to this. I haven't posted in a couple years and I need to do more as I do some redo and maintenance on my boat. I'm going to re-read your post and digest it. Then I may have some follow-up questions. An important take away is your emphasis on the alignment of everything.

I had taken a screen shot of your post and it's attached a few posts below

[Hull376]

Ebb, I had tried to get a rough estimate of the shaft length looking at the drawing in the manual, and found that a total length was not on the drawing unless I missed it. It shows the two piece inboard shaft. I estimated the missing straight piece of shaft for an outboard model by  using blocks on a piece of graph paper using the 10” dimension on the drawing. The estimate doing this is 14.5” for the straight shot in the middle of the rudder/shaft drawing. So when I added it all up, 30” + 14.5”+ 24 3/4”= 69 1/4”............ exactly what you measured out was needed for your new shaft!  I notced. in the drawing revision notes that the upper shaft was modified in 1965 for the commander, which seems to imply that it may measure differently than an Ariel. In 1962 the upper Ariel shaft was shortened to 30”— hummmm, wonder why!

[ebb]

Great!  I hjad a quantity left over.  How many years has  it Been?
Still have a couple pieces of form to glue in.

What surprised me the most,  my gluing also has held up!,  the
hull is non-porus, and the foam is closed cell, I worried about the
glue not drying or setting.  Waited til the "last minute" holding
the rubber off (past its repositioning window) then carefully
pressing it onto the hull.  I got such a positive join that a painter
I hired began painting the foam "thinking" it was the hull.
Good on us!!


Noticed that the long carefull measurement post above has eraswed itself,  I HATE computers

[Bill]

It's called "operator error!"

[Bill]

Kent, please keep the subject on the rudder here.  Other subjects - water based glue, etc. - should be posted in your Gallery thread.

[Hull376]

Ebb, I had an image copy of your message that I'm posting below.

[ebb]

FANTASTIC,  KENT.  

But I had gone back in the text after your download and 'corrected' it..
where I had thought my finish cut was two (or so) inches longer.  But, no, here
we see in Kent's research that ebb, mucking about, has somehow come out
with what is probably


THE ACTUAL OA STOCK LENGTH OF THE RUDDER. [69 1/4"]
(That used to be called serendipity.)

(Not withstanding  Com. Pete  who probably has given this to us years ago,
 BUT that the cockpit in the Commander might be higher because extra crew
Pearson may have been allowed for, therefor a higher waterline for the cockpit
sole.   Thus maybe a longer stock on the Commander rudder.

{Why does the Commander have those higher and very handsome coamings?
AND Commander's have no bridge usually, which would allow seats to be
positioned higher up.)

That is: unless Kent has shown us otherwise,
that the rudder's in the Ariel and Commander are exactly equal.



_______________________________________________________________
Talking about tillers .. TILLER DISCUSSIONS .. on the first page
Commander Pete has an old/new photo of two tillers side by side..

This where ebb obviously got the idea.
I do believe the tiller should be down, or in the housed position,
when underway and steering.   Because of the heavy loads the
tiller has to deal with.  Also in the no-knee-bang cobra position
when sitting, the bowed tiller is easily handed, push and pulled..
GO SEE.

______________________________________________________
The more gradual curve of C'Pete's curved tiller,  makes me
think that his is an off-the-shelf class Ranger tiller. Only a higher
bow will clear knees.

[Scott Galloway]

Reply to Hull 376

I measured the length of the bronze shaft on what I presume to be the original mahogany rudder on my 1965 Pearson Ariel (Hull #330) today, Nov 30, 2020.  I removed and replaced that rudder in 2018.  I have not removed the shaft from the rudder. I have been storing the rudder intact in my shed since it was replaced in 2018.

My boat is an outboard model. As you are aware, the rudder shafts on both the inboard and outboard models were manufactured in two parts, so the overall length of the shafts would be dependent on the actual dimensions of the wood rudder to which the shaft is attached.

I suppose there could have been some longitudinal shrinkage of the wood, which could have reduced the length of the shaft overall, but I can’t think of any reason why the shaft would be longer today than it was on the day it was removed from the boat.

In any case, the shaft that I measured today was just over 70 inches (between 70 inches and 70 1/16 inches, but it was closer to 70 inches than it was to 70 1/16 inches). My measurement was made with a metal tape measure stretched from the top of the shaft to the bottom including the boss at the bottom. So that would make it longer than the 69 1/4 inches that you came up with from the drawing and Ebb's measurement of the new shaft length on his boat. Our boats were built in different years.  There could have been some variation between years and perhaps even between individual boats manufactured during the same year.f

[ebb]

Hey Scott, howzitgoin!!
Great we're weighing in on this subject!  My 72" measurement came from
the length of the stock when I bought it.  Also I had a working well and just
assumed I would have a single length shaft.
When playing around with the blade shape. completely forgot the two piece
shaft.
And when I got into hydrofoils,  decided the propeller hole in the rudder had
to be ignored.  The top  of the rudder, sticking out, with Kent doing the
actual measuring from the drawing,  and confirming what I got "mucking
about",
is not proof of anything -- but gratifying.  (even tho I thot I was making the
rudder shaft a little longer..)  Can ascribe this to length of old age.  But to
serendipity of Kent's independent  confirmation from the drawing. And it's
Scott who has the longer rudder!!

BUT, Ebb thinks there is only one, maybe two, drawings in the Manual that
are signed by Alberg.  All others seem to be not quite so accurate copies from
the copiers.  [Look at the size of the cabin windows the copiers didn't copy so
well..  On the drawings of Ariels.]

3/4" seems about the right amount to have good warm discussions about..  
along with our favorite libations..   and a platter of savory horse doers.

[Scott Galloway]

I have attached a photo of the top end of the rudder shaft with the tiller removed. This photo was taken in 2010. The photo shows the top of the original bronze shaft on my boat (Hull 330). At the time that this photo was taken, I had just replaced the plastic bushing and lubed the top end of the shaft. As you can see in the photo, the shaft extends some distance above the fiberglass shaft tube.

[ebb]

Scott,  Looks right!
But if that's right, you needed that extra 3/4".

And you know, with no OB cowl and tiller intruding,
some extra height could be gained with a longer shaft!!

Here the problem comes when the tiller is upright
to tame it in the cockpit. how much room for the
upright tillerhead is required.

Tillerhead is quite close to the end of the cockpit there.

[Scott Galloway]

Ebb,

I really don't have any problem with the existing rudder post position or tiller configuration. I do not feel that I need to extend the rudder shaft or use a modified tiller. I steer the boat with my outboard handle protruding forward through the open lazarette hatch while motoring with the lazarette hatch wide open. I get more fresh air to the outboard that way anyway.  

The tiller on my boat is most likely the original 1965 stock tiller. The tiller design works well when I am steering by hand or when either my main sheet or jib sheet self-steering gears are steering the boat. I have the self-steering gears engaged most of the time that I am sailing. The boat will steer a steady course in relation to the wind for miles and miles. I only use the motor to get in and out of the harbor and of course at times when there is no wind....unless of course I am rowing the boat.

[ebb]

Scott, just meant the  aft leaning rudder shaft if lengthened
would at some point run into trouble from the very aft hinged
tiller.  Depending on what kind of OB we have clamped to the
riser right there at the opening to the lazaret. I'm not
advocating anything -- and on the Ariel in my life, I wouldn't
dare alter the rudder-tube that the rudder shaft extends
from on the cockpitsole.  The OA lengths of our rudders is
entirely dependent on where the keyslot is cut and where it
terminates.

What's most important is that Augustine is still sailing.  That
is absolutely marvelous.

And merely off the top of my baldinghead, because I do
remember you're explaining the sailing gear to us,  but for my
failing eyes the accompanying photos were too small.  Don't
know whether I'll ever have the boat balanced correctly,
because of my whimsical changes to the boat.

Another subject, better stop before I get a warning from
the Admiral.
Be perfect to have a video here of your method.
In the correct cubbyhole of course.