rudder discussions

[Westgate]

Juris:
I was in exactly the same boat last year.  We hauled out and figured a new rudder was absolutely necessary.  After I dropped it from the boat,  sanded it down and tightened up the screws it vastly improved the overall look and feel of the rudder.

After it dried out I also laid down a few layers of glass following Bill's methods.  I feel my rudder is better than new now. I was really dreading a new rudder build b/c of cost and time.  The wood and silly bronze rod will set you back a few $$ to say the least!  Better to spend this $$ on things you really need.

While a new rudder would provide a new level of confidence in your boat, look at yours closely before heading down that road.  Like Ebb said 45 years isn't bad but I don't think most of our rudders are even close to retirement just yet:).

Andrew

[JurisG]

Thanks for your input everyone!

If I am going to skip the full rebuild, I am wondering if I can get away with not dropping the rudder at all. There is no play in the steering (out of the water, anyways) so I think the mechanism is ok - it is just that outer plank that is loose. What if I take a rotary sander to it, and the wood underneath looks ok? Since those screws look impossibly hard to get to (and are covered by 40 years of bottom paint), maybe I should just drill some holes and add some metal strap reinforcements? Has this been done before or is it totally poor form? If it is doable, what would be the best place to put them and what would be the best type of metal to use?

If I bother to drop the rudder, I have a feeling I am going to go all out and just cut a new one.

While I'm here - does anyone know if my boat has a bilge plug? I can't seem to find one.

-Juris

[Bill]

While I'm here - does anyone know if my boat has a bilge plug? I can't seem to find one.-Juris

OFF TOPIC! Please Search and then ask in a proper thread or a new one.  (BTW - please describe just what is a "bilge plug" when you do.  :confused:)

[ebb]

"draining keel" are words the Search bar accepts.
Whether it gets to what you want you still have to find it. b Sometimes frustrating.
As I recall it, at least one owner  installed a drain plug of some sort
which he unscrewed to let the water out of the encapsulated keel when his boat was out of the water.

[Westgate]

Here is what I did.

Let the rudder dry out for a few days.

Sanded in down to bare wood.  Had to remove some of old rotten wood but was able to maintain the shape of the rudder.  I also dug out some boring creatures.  (By boring and do NOT mean not entertaining!).

Along the trailing margin there are a series of lag screws that hold on that troublesome third plank.  Dig out the boat paint until you can seat a slotted screw driver in there.  Torque these babies down.  This will snug things up.

I think I also torqued the other fittings but don't remember the details.  If you see a fastener and can tighten it up do so.

Seal with a couple of coats of epoxy. Then fill in the missing bits with thickened.  Sand this down all fair and smooth.

Follows Bill's post about sealing up the rudder post and gungeon areas.  I used Bill's protocol for my rebuild with just a few mods.

Lay on 3-4 layer of glass.  I used 4 x matt but if doing it again would start with a layer of biaxial.

Sand it down, paint it with bottom paint and you should be good to go.

Don't forget to order a new delrin rudder bearing from the Association (ebb had great o-rings he was generously sending out a few months  back).

My rudder post was def. showing signs of galvanic trauma but it wasn't severe so I ingored it.   You should check yours and make sure the brozne is OK.  Some corrosion is Ok.  How much is acceptable is up to you.  My was very surface related.

You can get all this done in a weekend easy cake.  While the epoxy kicks you can work on other things!!:D

Andrew

[ebb]

Looks YUMMY.

Only thing I can think of is make sure too many layers DON'T go round the ole ruddershaft.
BUT if you use Xmatt (epoxy rated matt) you will be able to sand and shape to your heart's content. without cutting through fiberglass woven cloth.

However, imco it would be tidier and tighter to take turns around the shaft with cloth.

[Westgate]

Good point Ebb.

One can always widen the groove that the rudder post sits in if the leading edge of the rudder no longer fits.  I think Bill discusses this in his rudder rebuild.  I used a drum sander that matched the radius of the groove.

[JurisG]

That was all exactly what I needed - you guys are the best! Gonna start tomorrow and I'll post the results when I have some. Thanks again.

[JurisG]

Hi All, I started a "#426 rework thread" to keep all of this boat's work in one place. It looks like how everyone else does it. My first post has some good info and a question regarding the rudder removal. Hoping y'all can take a look. Thanks!

[Orca]

Update,  last season I had Alex Hadden of Georgetown Island , Maine build me a new rudder using the existing shaft.   After looking at the plans I opted to make a cardboard pattern from another Ariel and Alex built it from nice thick mahogany planks.   We decided that tapering it  on the trailing edge was not necessary.   I removed the old and installed the new by digging a hole in the boat yard dirt and jacking up the stern a bit.   I did not have to drop the bottom plate as the rudder slides out easily to the side once you remove the keeper strap.   I'll make a picture of the new rudder when she's on the hard in the Fall.   Best,   Ed

The mud is a good part of this scheme if we try it. I'm not too sure why we are even thinking about this as I won't be able to fix it until the fall when the boat will be on the hard. I think we may try to jury rig something on the runt that is left of the rudder for the rest of the season. I always wondered if you could beach her on her side.
 
Using the same dock, we once winched the boat onto its side using the halyard at high tide to replace a through hull . . .so dangerous acts have been committed in the past. I think we have 11 feet on big tides but I don't recall. This is a dead calm spot so no waves are involved.
 
Any thoughts about oak?
 
Best, Ed
 
BTW I was a member of the board about 10 years ago. I'm very impressed with a lot of the boat pictures etc. I was pretty sure that my manual had the offsets for a new rudder but I don't see them. Am I mistaken or did I loose that page over the years?

[carl291]

Would anyone know how thick a piece of wood (mahoganey) is needed to build a replacement rudder? Thanks

[ebb]

Never seen those offsets myself.  Only the general dimensions.
You can find controversy as those drawings in the Manual also imply that a wider rudder WAS once planned for the Ariel and maybe the Triton.
But of course the shoe only allows a 1" shaft. And therefor a thin rudder.

Pics of the traditional plank rudder show them to be no more than an 1 1/8" thick.  The rudder would have to be almost totally flat and of consistent thickness to be built with the internal fastenings as we know them.
The finished rudder is skinny and relatively light.

There is no reason imco that a heavier rudder couldn't be built.
The only problem is holding back the bulk at the shaft so that the rudder can be swung.  The traditional rudder has no problem going the full sweep of the tiller in the cockpit.

Don't know that the extent of that sweep has been translated to how much there is to the rudder on the keel.  Any thickness at the shaft obviously will limit its swing because the rudder is inset into a cove on the 'keel post'

Can relieve the rudder wood at the shaft back so that the swing is maintained.
But that will change the flow of the water off the underbody onto the rudder and might create eddies or turbulence over the blade.  Don't know.

A thicker rudder will ease the fitting of the planks together.
Imco a rudder made of thicker wood begs that the rudder sides  be shaped into a bit of a modern foil.
Imco a keel hang rudder uses only the trailing HALF of the modern  wing foil.  An easier shape to introduce onto the rudder.
The curving of the trailing half of a foil is rather mild.
However a trailing foil wants to be thin.  And that is a real problem with a round rudder.
And maybe the reason round rudders are left flat.

I think a more efficient rudder can be shaped, one that is less likely to cavitate.  Don't know if this has been observed as a problem with A/Cs.
With curved sides the thickness can be carried further aft which may allow the third plank out to be fastened differently.


(Slightly different construction method.)
IE, if the third plank does NOT have the long rods that go thru the second and first to the shaft, why can't the third plank be permanently glued* to the second? Could be slipped over a couple blind bronze pins for reinforcement.  And if things work out could allow carving down the trailing edge SOME.

When building the plank rudder the nuts on the ends of the the long rod/bolts/allthread need not be buried in counterbore holes. The nut and washer and bolt ends can be notched into  the second plank.  They would be totally exposed in open square cutouts - tightening, loosening and adjusting at will.  When the rudder is finished, the square holes can be filled and faired with non-hardening putty.  When painted the holes will have disappeared.
Later when maintenance is needed and the paint is removed, the major fastenings will be right there!  The nuts could be backed off and the blade taken off the shaft without an act of congress.
This is imco - I haven't done this, but it appears feasible. Putting this out for discussion.


The traditional rounded rudder however goes back to a time before rudders were hydrodynamic.  It might be too difficult to give a foil shape to a round rudder.

Anyway,  with thicker planks some more dynamic but mild curves might be added to a new but traditional blade.
Might entice the Ariel/Commander to go a little faster and enjoy  a little more control.

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
*  The traditional rudder is NOT glued anywhere - giving individual planks some room to move.  The usual 3 planks are generally of equal width, about 6".  
The original rudder was assembled DRY, altho they may have used a thin coat of bedding compound on the edges and certainly at the shaft to plank join.
However, in this case, the suggestion is to glue  on the 'third plank' - the outer and smaller PROBLEM plank. It  interferes with no clamping threaded fasteners, not even screws.   It is free to swell and shrink.  
The middle plank could be an extra wide plank incorporating the third plank. A two planker,

But clamping nuts and washers  introduced into the outer edge of a less wide second plank is easier,  The same ease of assembly and disassembly of the rubber blade could be achieved in a very wide plank by mortising out the access holes at about the same distance out if a three planker.  
So much easier to bore long centered holes in less wide material.  
Resorcinol is the perfect underwater bonding glue for mahogany.  Maybe a rubber adhesive could be used....

[carl291]

I just acquired some 1 5/8 inch  thick stock (mahoganey). two pieces, 13 3/4 wide and 4 1/4 wide X 48". Hopefully I can get a local cabinet maker to cut this down to 1 1/4 " and end up with some veneer for something else. Certainly would be a waste to plane it down to size.
 I have 1" thick teak but think this is too thin once I drill for 5/16" pins. Anyone built a rudder from 1" stock??:rolleyes:

[Jon]

I just hauled my boat and this is her rudder.   Some of the wood is soft and the entire thing has seen much better days.

I'm doing a major refurb and I really think this rudder should be replaced.   Has anyone any idea of what I should do?

thanks

[Commander 147]

Jon
 
Type the word rudder in the search box above and you will find volumns of information on what others have done. Here is a link to just one small portion of what you will find.
 
http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?576-rudder-discussions&highlight=RUDDER
 
Also here is a link to a company that can build you a nice new fiberglass version (at a pretty steep price). If you decide to go with Foss Foam to have them build you a new rudder, they will need to make a new mold which is the expensive part and the reason I have not choosen to go with them. However we might be able to cut a deal that is better if they were to build two rudders one for me and one for you.
 
http://newrudders.com/?page_id=6
 
Currently my plan is to buy the marine bronze and have a local machine shop do the fabricating to it and build a new rudder body out of some 6/4 quartersawn mahogany I already have and then "possibly" cover it in fiberglass. The jury is still out on the last part.
 
Your milage may vary :-)