Deck Delamination / Core Problems

[Sprite]

Tony G,

These boats are fun when everything is in wonderful working order.  I have had my hair pulling sessions with mine at times.
You know the types, well my deck is squishy. I have to pull out
galvanized screws off deck hardware or the previous owner
put a chainpipe to close to the aft end of the front shelf. Not to
mention my bizarre stairs leading in.


                         Thank God for some of my friends and family
                           who have helped


                              Captain John

                                        Here they are worried more
                      about the hurricane

[ebb]

Wonder what the equation is for a budget boat in relation to budget engineering?  Also the Triton specs could be quite different from Ariel specs, as they are different from the A-30. (viz its 1" thick transom.)

It's pretty set here that the later Ariels Could have less layers of laminate tham the earlier ones.  Perhaps the engineering progressed over the production run.  The deck composit on 338 has a very sparse inner mat layer.  We have only our personal experiences to go by.  While the hull on 338 looks completely substantial and no doubt is engineered to be so,  this amatuer believes that it is also entirely possible to rack the Ariel out of plumb.  Especially if the deck is opened up.  

Maybe the Ariel hull could be stood on a square inch point anywhere on its surface.   All 2 1/2 tons?  But I know that my cut water WAS 3/8"s
thick and so WAS the 'flat' areas of the keel.  A lot thinner than the "bullet proof" scantlings we think these old plastic boats have.  I'm led to believe.  A whole lot of hull strength comes from Alberg's fully rounded curves.  You engineer these surfaces (ie, make them skinny) because of the inherent strength of the compoud curve.

What damage might happen if you rammed your 2 1/2 tons into a submerged container at 6 knots?   You know, or a log?  Still, we all can agree that these Pearson hulls ARE very strong and aren't going to change shape  on the hard, in the yard.  Well.....is this true - or not?

But does Everett guarantee that when you remove large portions of the deck that the hull will not move at all?  Or for that matter the unsupported deck/cabin mold?  My amatuer assumption is that the entire package has to be in it's original engineered state, let's call it, for  the engineering to be viable.

I'm not an engineer or a plastic boat professional for that matter.  I will have examined every cubic centimeter of 338 by launch time.  That doesn't make me an expert,  it makes me weird, but a lover of the craft (pun intended.) So, when I look at Pearson:

338  may have been the pond version of the Miget Ocean Racer Cruiser that I assume the Ariel was marketed as.   Because the unlocked, ungasketed cockpit lockers had only perforated hard board to keep contents from ending up in the bilge,  green water in the cockpit could well have been a disaster for somebody in the past.  This is an offshore boat?  I don't think so.

I'm wary of marketing and engineering.

[John]

Ebb,

My understanding, along with conversations past and present, is that Pearson created the Commander using the Ariel/Alberg hull as a quick response to the MORC class reacing.  It is clear that while the Ariel is capable, the Ariel just did not have room for the crew needed to race.  Not that I am objective about my 9 ft cockpit.

If you you look at the PHRF ratings, on average the Commander will be slightly faster by just a smidgen (you do keep a smidgen for measurement don't you?).  256.8 and 250.8 for the Ariel and Commander respectively.

John G
Valhalla
Commander No 284

[ebb]

Capt. John,
No surprise the Commander is faster than the Ariel.  I don't think they race against one onother on S.F. Bay.  Probably because the close PHRF ratings creates too many protests for serious toasting after the race.  

Maybe there's a fleet out of Alviso. what race each other.  

I don't know if A/Cs go out in the Pacific for a rated race...But if they do go out with unwaterproofed cockpit lockers, we may have a memorial one of these days.

Why does it take ten people to crew a race in a Commander, anyway?  Can only fit four in an Ariel if you don't count the cook.  Isn't four good enough for a day race?

[John]

My memory grows dim and I can't remember what was sailing at the same time as the Commander.  Was the Cal 27 later?  I think it was.  


I just looked at the base PHRF's to keep things equal and the early Cal 27 was rated 192/outboard ands 195/Inboard.  The 27-II and 27-III were rated slightly faster.  That's a more than a smidgen difference.   I told you that having a smidgen is useful from time to time.

Of course the Ariel fit into the rule. The question is how did it rate and how did it sail against it's rating?  

Ten is a slight exageration.  I think I would race with:
    Skipper/helmsman  1
    Jib trimmers/tailers  2
    Main trim/Navigator  1
    Foredeck monkey      1

When I raced on the Chesapeake , we used to race the Annapolis 25's with 3-4, but that could get exciting.

John
Valhalla
Commander No 25

PS. Valhalla took a second in class  in the last S.S. Crocker Race here here off Manchester, MA.

[ebb]

Without my tongue in cheek, I can say without exageration, and heartyly:  
Congrats on getting the old girl a high-end second!

There have been many times when I wished I be a racer    (or a fisherman.)  You guys just slap on a coat of vinyl and GO,   tweek your new G A A A R H A U E R s,  slip on your topsiders,    stick your chins out to check the telltales, and breathe in that special pheromone mix of salt, ozone, chicks and glory.....

whilst us poor schleps, who actually work on boats, sweat and cuss in the bowels and bilges,  breath dust and fumes of parking lots and cans of can't-be-made-safe petrochemicals.  Just to get her into a sailable conditon, again!

What a life!  P H R F  to you, Buddy....

Bet you don't  even feel guilty taking in a Sunday ball game!:D

[John]

Weellll......I gotta be honest here.  We are among friends and mates.

The S.S. Crocker Race is a "Fun race" sponsored by the Manchester Harbor Boat Club ( my Club), the Manchester Yacht Club (where the Hinckleys live) and the Crocker Boat Yard.  The race is in memory of the founder and Famous Marine Architect, S. S. Crocker (Think Stone Horse for instance).  The race committee only hears protests on December 31st in the middle of the harbor.  The start is a staggered one, and if the committee has done it's job, everyone crosses the finish line at the same time.  My class starts first, and this year included a 45 ft motorsailor, and a Stone Horse that was a smidgen ahead of me ( I didn't see him finish.)

I am still learning how to sail Valhalla.  The addition of a traveller has made a visable difference in my ability to point.  I am still learning how to set my asymetric spinnaker.  Valhalla loves to reach and I made up a lot of time on the reaching leg.  

It still can get exciting at the corners.  The calls for buoy room can get a bit strained, but I have never seen anyone come to blows.  I do get blown away down wind.  I am now getting convinced that I need to tack down wind and that means I am going to have to learn how to gybe the spinnaker.  

SO I hope to end up in the top half and finish well in class.  This year was a good one.

John
Valhalla
Commander No 284

[Sprite]

Mike,

When you mention the bulkhead on the previous page and using a knife do you mean from the top. I noticed a slight crack on the liner on the left side of the companion way door as you are walking into the cabin its in the corner closer to the bow.
Should I just fill it in with epoxy. It's hairline.  The top of the
cabin is solid just epoxy???


                                                Capt. John                  






:confused:

[Sprite]

Captain Mike,


How much core should you buy at the different depths let's say
for an area forward of the cockpit to the stemhead. I wonder is the cockpit floor balsa. How do you get at the coring in the cabin roof.



                            Capt John




                                 

[Bill]

Capt John,

Have you read the Sandifer article?  Good Old Boat has placed his article on  delamination repair on its Web site.  You can read it online at:
http://www.boatus.com/goodoldboat/delalimation.htm

[Sprite]

Yeah,

I read it a while back but was not to clear about removing the
balsa from the inside in the forward cabin and how to create
attach a foam core to the outside fiberglass skin and then
put back the ceiling.


I'm  planning to start work in a week or two.


Capt. John:)

[commanderpete]

No specific answers, but here is an example of a core job from underneath on a San Juan.

http://personal.monad.net/~catamount/Quasar/part1.html

[mrgnstrn]

If you are going to attempt the "under-side" repair, you might want to look into vacuum bagging.
West-System has a $3 manual on the basics of vaccuum bagging, which might be worth looking at.
The basic principle is that you put in your epoxy, stick on the core, cover the whole thing with some polyethylene sheet sealed at the edges, and draw a vaccuum on the inside.  That way air pressure (~14.7 psia at sea level) pins the core to the ceiling evenly.  And presumably better then trying to hold it in place with braces, etc.  With a really good vaccuum pump, you can probably get almost all of that 14.7 psid, but even a moderate one will let you get at least 10 psid.  For the whole underside of the forepeak, that would add up to.....~2000 square inches, and ~ 10 lbs per sq-inch diffential pressure (psid), maybe 20,000 lbs of clamping force evenly over the whole area.  Sure to squeeze out any excess air bubbles and excess epoxy.  And since you can vary the vacuum, if you feel like you are going to squish the core, you can reduce the vaccum, say to 5 psid.
Ebay can hook you up with a vaccuum pump for ~$75.
When I replace #3's core, I plan on first trying the vaccuum bag technique.
Some numbers to remember:
29 inches Hg vaccuum ~=~ 14.7 psid
is almost a perfect vaccuum.
10 psid ~=~ 1440 lbs clamping force per square foot.
Let me know how it goes!

[mrgnstrn]

What is the thickness of the core in the forepeak?
I want to buy materials from the supplier without having to make a 2.5hr round trip for one measurement.
I am sure that if I had time to scour the website, I would find it; but alas I am at work.

Thanks!,

[Mike Goodwin]

I guess you mean the deck core on the foredeck. #45 was average of 1/2" , thinner near the rails .