Prospective Boat Buyers Info-tech ?'s

[mrgnstrn]

Hello all, i have a random collection of tech. ?'s about Ariel #3 that i am pondering buying.  here goes:

1.  Rudder: looked loose from its shaft.  the bottom plate/shoe looked pretty tight, and solid, but the shaft and the bottom of the actual rudder surface looked not too tight.  how are the two held together?  the straps that support the shaft in the middle looked good and tight, i just worry that someday i might go to tack and loose the rudder control surface and be left with a naked rudder shaft.  ideas.

2. more Rudder:  this boat has been out of water for years, and there was (as the general populous predicted) a seam that formed where the two boards had shrunk.  this doesn't seem to be a problem, but the insert that fills in where there would be a prop (no inboard engine on this one) seems half-assed.  a simple strap with two nails in the main surface and two in the insert, and then i assume some epoxy around.  anyone with experience here?

3. Starboard, lip of topsides:  along the starboard side for a few feet, where the topside (walking surface) rounds upward to form the lip on the extreme edge of the topside (before turning 180 degrees to meet up with the hull/shell)  there is a crack on the inside.  the current owner had the topsides redone, so no evidence there, but from the inside you can see a crack.  and there is some crap oozing out.  was the core originally balsa, foam or plywood?  i think i have seen pictures on the web somewhere, where somebody cut a gigantic area out, removed (and saved) the top fiberglass layer, removed and replaced all the old core, and reattached the top layer.  for me i would have to stop at the removing the core part and fix/glass up the inner glass layer, then replace the core.  where do i find more info, and again balsa, foam or plywood to replace?

4. drains:  does anybody have experience at replacing the original drains with seacocks?  what does that entail? how much of the hull am i going to have to cut out?  are replacements easy?

well that's it for now, thanks to all in advance!

-km

[Bill]

You will find answers to many of your questions by reading some of the history.  Just go to the bottom of the Technicle forum and change the display to "since the beginning" from the default "30 days."  Remember, the posts are displayed in groups of 20, so click the next page number when you reach the bottom of each page.

[commanderpete]

There is not too much that holds the rudder shaft to the boat. As long as the straps are good, the rudder shaft is not going to seperate from the boat.

Any play in the shaft is tightened up at the top or the rudder shoe, which is discussed elsewhere.

The insert for the apeture does nothing but fill space.

This is my rudder after I sanded much of the paint off.

[commanderpete]

The rudder looks kinda dark because I had coated it with epoxy a few years ago. I now think that wasn't a great idea.

This is a picture of an ariel where the rudder was completely covered with fiberglass. I think it would be very difficult to make and keep the rudder waterproof.

[commanderpete]

I think the general consensus is that you should leave the rudder alone. It may look ugly, but its not going anywhere.

You can tighten up the slop (play) in the rudder if it bothers you.

About the crack at the starboard side. The deck is cored, but the coring tapers off towards the edge. When you get near the "lip" (toerail) it becomes solid fiberglass.

When you say stuff is oozing out underneath, is that fresh liquid or dried goop from a previous repair?

On the drains, which ones were you thinking about?

No sense putting seacocks on the cockpit drains because you're never going to close them.

[ebb]

Number 3.  WOW!

[mrgnstrn]

ebb - that is exactly what i thought!

Cdrpete - on the blue rudder pic, did the straps work well? or did they fight the wood's expansion contraction adversly?

- on the red rudder, would it be difficult to glass because keeping it dry makes it open up and the glass would be constantly fighting that situation?  because you don't want to glass it wet (!).

and what i am really worried about is that the lower shaft and rudder don't appear attached by anything.  the upper shaft looks pretty solidly attached, but the lower shaft is separating from the control surface.  but the shaft is going nowhere, the straps to the hull are good and the shoe/bracket at the bottom is tight.

- oozing was the wrong word.  maybe extruded is more correct. it wasn't liquid or gooey,  but it was kind like coarse sawdust mixed with rubber cement.  but not super-elastic like rubber cement.  would this be rotten balsa coming through the crack (visable crack, but hard to tell how wide the crack is).

- i work for the navy designing subarines.  every single pipe into a sub has a hull and backup valve (2 valves).  now, i don't ever plan on going to periscope depth in mine, but being able to shut the valve when the hose springs a leak appeals to me.  i still have to do the cost/benefit on this one.

you guys are awesome with the answers, and i only looked at this boat yesterday.  now to find a marine surveyor, etc etc etc.
thanks to all,
km #3

[commanderpete]

I should probably let someone who knows more about rudders chime in here.

I'm not sure if the bronze plates you see on my blue rudder were original or added later.

On the red rudder, I just think that water is going to find its way underneath the fiberglass. The wood will swell, the fiberglass will crack, more water will get in,  etc., etc.

On the starboard crack, it seems that somebody did a repair of some sort.  You said that the topside had been re-done in that area (painted?). If the boat has been sailed for awhile after the repair, and no crack has appeared on the topside through the paint, it looks like the repair was successful. If there was movement, I would think there would be a corresponding crack(s) on the topside.

I'm sure we would all like to see some pictures of #3 if you can swing it.

[commanderpete]

This is a page from Dave Bogle's homepage showing his rudder. He has a 1965 Commander like mine.

http://www.bway.net/~bogle/rudder.html

With these boats, you are going to see alot of variation from one boat to another in alot of things. They weren't really mass produced.

[Mike Goodwin]

Bad balsa core looks like and has the texture of cheap canned tuna in water .
I re-cored #45 last summer , somewhere there are photos posted of the job .

[Mike Goodwin]

If you scroll down on this thread ;

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?s=&threadid=43

You will see photos of my old and new deck core , had to do the whole stbd side .

Mike G

[commanderpete]

Just guessing here, but maybe a prior owner has already done the deck repair. Maybe he cut too far through the deck from the top and the epoxy leaked down. Some people also do the repair by cutting off the bottom skin from underneath.

The important thing is-----Is the deck stiff? Does it feel soft or springy when you walk/jump on it. Sometimes you feel more if you walk on it barefoot.

Back on the rudder. The Manual indicates that the rudder is held to the shaft by large bolts and screws that pass right through the shaft and into the wood. Trying to replace them doesn't sound too easy. Maybe there is an easier way.

Keep in mind, though, that this is a 40 year old boat. Buying this boat would not be an entirely rational decision. It helps to be a little nuts. Labor of love, and all that.

[mrgnstrn]

great photos mike!

quick question, what is the max size that can easily come up at once?  i am imagining that there may be spots where the balsa is still hanging on tight and would hate to break the top layer trying to get to it off.  i also imagine that too small of a piece and alignment might be a problem.

also, the series of holes that were drilled, what were they for?

well, i am looking into wescore and nida-core.  i briefly talked to a marine surveyor about delam and cores and he mentioned knomex (sp?) and some other type that was honeycomb with a fiber layer on bothsides; not wetted, but bonded to the honeycomb.  which eases install because there is a layer of fiber to adhere the next to.  anyone know the brand/product name?

thanks again to all,
km #3

[Bill]

For a good discussion of repairing delmating decks on an Ariel, go to Bill Sandifer's article in Good Old Boat:

http://www.boatus.com/goodoldboat/delalimation.htm

Or, if you can find a copy, take a look at the Nov/Dec 1998 edition of Good Old Boat.

[Mike Goodwin]

I see you are on the Potomac , I'm down in Portsmouth , about 3 hrs south of you .
The holes were a bad repair by a previous owner ,
when the core is wet , it wont work .
Some of the pieces I pulled up were very large 2x3' or larger .
Any core will work , even balsa can go back in . Balsa has been given a bad rap due to negligent owners not poor materials or construction . You know , the folks who think fiberglass boats are matainence free and teak is supposed to be grey and dried out .