things to look for while inspecting

[Bill]

The yacht is good.  Are you good enough for it?  :confused:

[Dennis Rioux]

Rico & ebb,

Thanks for the ongoing encouragement and ideas. I have a recommendation from a friend for a well-respected surveyor who is indeed independent of the broker in this case. I've got an appointment to take a look on Saturday morning, so we'll see how things go.

The yacht is good.  Are you good enough for it?  :confused:

Bill,

I am not sure how to take that statement -- is it a standard challenge to all boat owners (or would-be owners) or something more individually directed? I like high quality, old things -- houses, boats, tools... cars not so much -- and wouldn't be thinking about buying this boat unless I was committed to taking care of it. It really makes me sad to watch this Ensign I have mentioned rotting away outdoors. (Both these boats are my age, so maybe there is something psychological going on here.:rolleyes:) It was you who filled in some history on Nordlyset back a few months in another thread -- it is evident that it has been well taken care of over the years and it gives me some much needed confidence in this decision. Thank you for sharing the information. If I buy it I am going to do my best to continue taking good care of it. I guess I'll leave it at that.

Dennis

[mbd]

Dennis, she's a good looking boat - good luck tomorrow! If you do "jump in", you'll find you get used to the size real quickly, and the more projects you take on, the less intimidating they become.

Although, from your website, it looks like you'll be teaching us a thing or two! An Ariel will seem like sailing a tank after the Penobscot 14 you built - she's absolutely gorgeous!  Nicely done!  :cool:

[ebb]

If it isn't, it's pretty damn close!:D

[Dennis Rioux]

mbd & ebb,

Thanks. It get's used, I promise, and no longer looks like those photos from launching day. I have been accused of building floating furniture, but at least it gets sat in. That handsome devil who looks like he knows what he is doing holding the boom, by the way, is friend Brad, not yours truly. He convinced me to do the bright interior on that boat -- I still consider him a friend but all subsequent boats shall have nice workboat style painted interiors.

Okay, back from Sister Bay after an hour's visit with Nordlyset. Brief analysis: I've got some things to think about. In person, it's a little more "tired" than the original photos led me to believe. I think a lot of people have looked at it over the last couple years judging from all the footprints on deck and broker comments. Pretty sure there are some soft spots around stanchion bases, fittings, and the mast step. Here are some photos I took -- the contrast and saturation are bad due to poor lighting.

Mast support beam deflection I assume? Tabbing pulling away from bulkhead? This is widespread throughout the boat.


The mast step itself. Haven't read widely enough to know if this is original.


A backing plate for one of the stanchions. None wiggle on deck too badly. Again, not sure if it is original equipment.


Keel void is *still* dripping -- I think it has been out of the water at least two years. That was some icky goo pooled on the floor there.


Plug plate things. They can be removed from within the lazarette with enough time and gumption -- kind of buried beneath some ply that must act as platform for gas cans.


I think the rudder needs some help -- looks like it may have split at some point and been repaired. There didn't seem to be any play in the shaft. The tiller is pretty loose, but that's just the matter of a bolt I suppose.


By the way bill@ariel231, that cowl vent on the bow is a plastic replacement.

Dennis

[bill@ariel231]

She doesn't look that bad actually..

1. several mast beams photographed on this site share a similar curve on the lower edge. If the beam looked like it was rotten or split across the grain, then i'd argue for a replacement. If the construction is like A-231, the beam is held in place by several #14 wood screws from the other side of the bulkhead (hidden by the formica).

2. water in the keel ... pretty common and not terminal (look for the keel void thread)

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=604&highlight=keel+void

3. as for the rudder. I've marked up your photo with a couple lines. the red box outlines the cutout for the inboard version (all rudders and hulls share this feature). outboard versions have a patch over the rudder and a molded fiberglass patch over the prop aperture in the hull. If the cracks are parallel to the yellow line, then you are seeing the planks that form the rudder.

4. the stanchion backing plate is undersized. most have been refit with larger backing plates of plywood (and or thicker stainless).

good luck...

[c_amos]

I concur with bill@ariel231, she looks good and I don't see anything to walk away from.

  The tabbing on Faith looks exactly like what you see there.  I will 'clean it up' some day but it is sound.  I have looked at several Ariels in person, and most have some deflection of this beam...

  The tabbing is often 'rough' especially around the hull to deck joint.  There have been no reports (that I am aware of) any failures on these boats.  If you just wanted to make it look pretty, you could add some cloth and fair it in nice... I have done a couple sections just because I was doing other work in the area, but loose no sleep over the tabbing.

  Depending on how large the soft spots are around the stanchions,  you may not need a full re-core.  You won't know until you get in there, but nothing to be afraid of IMHO.  

[Tony G]

Dennis

Judging from the Penobscot 14 photos, you would enjoy that Ariel and she would benefit from having an owner like you.  Boats of this vintage will always have some issue that needs to be adressed, but as Bill and Craig have stated, everything appears to be about as one should expect.  Straight forward repairs.  A walk in the park for someone with your abilities.

[ebb]

just went thru here quick, so sorry for repetitions

That is the original mast step.  An amazing lamination.

Ebb also has gone on and on about the bloody compression beam - maybe you can find the thread(s) if interested.  I found the same condition in A-338 - and found nothing wrong with the beam itself, no rot.

The mast step in A-338 was held on with two mighty screws that went thru the step, thru the deck and into the beam.  Those two screws hold the beam in place.  From this point on my analysis gets very rant.  If you have any specific questions, post them, and I will be happy to chime in with the rest of the crew.

[Dennis Rioux]

Thanks again, everyone, for the feedback and encouragement. Thanks Bill for the markup on the photo -- I never would have come up with that explanation in a million years. Tony, please say hi to Northern MN for me -- I grew up in Saint Cloud and dream of retiring to the north woods someday so I can experience some real winters again. Ebb, I have indeed spent some quality time in the last months on those compression beam posts scattered in various threads here. c_amos, I will have to read some more about the tabbing -- "rough" I can live with, but doesn't this look more like "it ain't connected anymore?" Curable, I am sure given the operations I have seen some of you have done.



We spent some time looking through some of the gallery pages last night, and we are that much closer to "okay, let's do it." Besides, the girls really do want a boat with a "basement" as the youngest one puts it. At this point, my plan would be to bring the boat home since working at either of the two local yards I could store the boat at is either extremely inconvenient or verboten. This presents its own little set of challenges since my driveway is only 9' wide and I would want to tuck it into a part of my driveway between the house and garage that is a little less than 30' long. Gotta call the boat moving guy to check on the width and maneuverability of his rig and get the manual for those cradle plans. In the mean time, I'll try to figure out what we should offer and whether to get it surveyed if we get that far. Thanks again.

Dennis

[vanguard64]

I have e-mailed Dennis to see what he decided to do with this boat. I wonder what the consensus of the members is on what he found wrong with this boat and whether this boat would be a "safe bet" or not to buy. In other words, is this your "typical" Ariel for sale ?
I appreciate the input since I too am looking for an Ariel.
Marcelo

[carl291]

To my inexperienced eye I don't find anything "wrong" with this boat. From working on three Pearson's from this era everything is .... well typical and to be expected.
     Loose tabbing seems to always be on the wood side.
    The boats with the least amount of deck mounted hardware, ex. lifelines , sail sheet tracts, wiring holes ,pulpits ,pushpits , vents etc. have the driest deck coring. Any hole put in these decks through the years generally lets water in. This all can be fixed and is covered on this site.
      If you can accept that repairing anything will make a big mess of your new "old" boat, your halfway there. Also any repair you make will be better than when it was new is the other half.
      Everything on these boats is pretty straight forward, no hull liners or sagging interior panels, plastic one of gizmos and such.
      You have to find these boats eye pleasing to view both in and out of the water...... especially out of the water if you should drag home a derelict like I have:o
      I have one right now and all I plan to do is repair to keep the water out, bottom paint and go sail it. That's what it's about any way.
    Good Luck in your search.

[Dennis Rioux]

Hello everyone,

It hasn't been an easy decision by any means, but in just the last couple weeks I have decided to not buy the Ariel. I think the consensus here is that the boat has a set of well known problems that can be fixed -- and having delved into the archives pretty deeply over the last months I can say there is definitely good information on how to fix all of them on this site. The association site and everybody who contributes to it fall on the "plus" side of the equation that helps you decide whether or not to take on a project like that.

The brief details that tipped my decision into the negative go like this: I got two quotes for moving the boat to my house where I could work on it before relaunching, both of which were north of a kilobuck after taxes and whatnot. Combined with a likely purchase price in the 3-5 kilobuck range, this started to run into what I consider serious money before I did "thing one" to it. Also, the draft of 3'8" is probably too much for the 3'-4' "thin water" available at the affordable public moorings nearby -- I simply can't afford a slip (at least not until we prove to ourselves as a family unit that this kind of boating is something we want to do enough to justify that). Sad as it may be, those were the biggest reasons and they boil down to the usual damn money money money reason.

On the plus side, I did just buy the Pearson Ensign I mentioned in an earlier post for an affordable entry price of $250, so I will still be with you all in Alberg-designed Pearson Family spirit. A friend will help me move that to my house in the next week or so where I can begin to tackle its rather lengthy list of ills (cracked toe rail, soft decks, rotted mahogany coamings, probably needs an all new interior in the cuddy, etc). Much smaller boat by volume and draft and probably more my "speed" right now.



Oh, and there is also my father-in-law's Thompson runabout we got down last weekend from the garage rafters it had been hanging from for the last 30 years. Needs some keel attention and new paint and varnish at the least.



I'm going to keep lurking here for sure -- perhaps I will convince myself that a side-by-side Pearson Ariel and Pearson Ensign dual restoration is the way to go. By the way, Marcelo, I will be flying down to New Orleans over the holidays to visit my brother -- maybe I could try to bring Nordlyset along for you as checked baggage... 50 pound limit, what 50 pound limit?

Dennis

[vanguard64]

Hi Dennis,
Thanks for your candid response. I agree with you that when you start digging deeper into all the repairs that are needed to return one of these beautiful boats to their former glory it is very overwhelming, and the cost in time, sweat, and money plain scary. I have actually been through this before and know it first hand. I sometimes have to ask myself why I want to go through it again and this creates my indecision.  In 1998 I bought a derelict 1964 32ft Pearson Vanguard and spent the next year restoring her. I did half of the job, and the boatyard did the other. I poured $15,000 into her that first year. She was featured in Good Old Boat Magazine in November 2004 and then Katrina took her away 10 months later. These are all great boats but we have to accept their age and what that entails.
I would love to see the pictures of the finished Ensign whenever that may be. Hope you have a great visit to New Orleans. I'll be at the airport waiting for my 50#s of cheese.
Kind regards,
Marcelo

[carl291]

Dennis, very nice, you'll enjoy the ensign. Also it will fit a little better in your driveway.
Here's a photo of a trailer I modified to haul an Electra, (same hull). Let me know if you would like some measurements.
Oh Dennis, the dual restoration wouldn't be novel, Frank and myself are doing the same!! Your very welcome to join this elite club, Tony was a member but I think he sold the Ensign.