Mast step saga

[Ed Ekers]

Hey ebb,
I was thinking more in terms of a non rigid vang. The after tab (ear) would allow you a place to connect your block (s) for a traditional vang. I think if you look at the Garhaurer vang you will see a double block at the base of the vang. Because of this block you do need to elevate the mounting point. On Pathfinder when we snub the vang just enough to take out the slack in the line the bottom block hangs about ½ - ¾ of an inch above the cabin top... Happy New Year .......ed

[ebb]

Thanks Ed,
I see it!
Fair winds - may your main always be well vanged - and yer transom never pooped.

[ebb]

C'pete,
Well Ed just shot down a idea of mine.  Ideas shouild be shot down.

Here's another chance!
So I was over to Wally Bryant's place, drew the sorts, and got on the mast page, and this mast collar thing was right there, big time.

Now, if you got that nice dense plywood pad that Pearson put under the mast like 338 had,  all you gotta do is have yer local ironmonger make a ring out of 1/4" stuff to go around that pad that would stand above the top surface a fair amount thru which a number of suitably sized holes are drilled.   A hole for every turning block and then some.   Then a half circle (C-shaped) piece that fits the vertical - sitting flat on top of the pad - would be welded on to it.  This piece, one for either side, has the holes for the bolts that go thru the pad to the inside.   Well, maybe, I don't know what you have there.  Course the 'ring' is cut also so you don't have to pull the mast to mount the organisers. port and starboard.

Stainless would be nice.  But galvanized would be cheaper and painted would be even nicer,  I think, less obtrusive.   A local shop with a talented welder could finesse the pieces together.   Small job will just be added to the rest of the shop's stuff going to the galvanizers and shouldn't be expensive either.

I've always asked to have the job back for a bit for a final fitting and to round surfaces (like radiusing the corners  with a small grinder), filing the bumps out of the welds.  Easy if its iron.   If they have a sand blasting booth it'll come out real choice (after your work on it.)   Hot dip galvanizing, if done correct, is a coating that will not hide flaws. even scratches might show up,  and smoothing the welds gets the zinc to seal those corners better.  

These T-section pieces, curved snug to the pad would be plenty strong I think. 5/16, 3/8" thru bolts, maybe 3 each?   Pad would stay healthy if the top drained by making the 'organizers' completely separate port and starboard pieces to allow drainage.   Feed back?


It's a idea.

B A M  !

[this is a heavily edited version of my first post]

[commanderpete]

I'm leaning towards getting the hinged mast base after all. Just makes sense. The boatyard charges $300+ to unstep and step the mast.

Not too many people make these--Dwyer, Rig Rite (Anybody else?) None of them come with attachment points for blocks in the front or back.

I like the Ballinger best (Thanks ebb). Looks like the Ballinger part is HMB M30 ($195).

Here's one on a Catalina 27 (scroll down the page a bit)

http://www.blumhorst.com/catalina27/mast-repair2.htm

A mast hinge doesn't appear on Garhauer's catalog. I spoke to three people there, and they didn't seem familiar with the item. Willie, was your hinge a custom job?

[willie]

Sorry cmdr, it's Ballinger's. Ordered stuff from both, must be the sea-nility setting in!

You'll have to do some drilling alright. Drilling through the cabin top/support beam/added alum. angle  was interesting for me. I used the existing holes for starters, then decided to use a long 1/8'' bit and see where we came out inside. Using the hand drill i figured i'd only be a couple inches off, but suprisingly came out right where i intended. I then drilled up from inside with the 3/8. Sounds simple; in reality, it would have been, if i hadn't broke the 1/8'' one off about 3'' deep. What a pain. Ended up having to open things up a bit more to dig it out. Needless to say, it was well blessed by the time i was done!

I also used a die grinder around the butt of the mast, cutting off about 1/2''around the aluminum insert. made getting it out a little easier. Also heat from the torch helps. The 1/2'' shorter mast is made up for with the plate, and my rigging came out about the same. I also filled the hole in the center,cabin top, around bolt holes with epoxy. Now i need to figure out how to run a wire for a steaming light! (does electric trolling motor count?)Guess up the front will be fine for now. Have fun. I'm in the middle of a sewing project. New respect for the mrs., she said i had to do it! Kinda fun actually. :rolleyes:

[commanderpete]

Here we are now in 2005. The mast step saga continues. Sealing the old rotten step in fiberglass didn't work out so great. It must have been too delaminated, a little soft under load. Cracks started to develop over time, water got in, more cracks, etc

[commanderpete]

The trouble really began when I removed the step, which had been bedded with polysulfide. Still very hard to remove. Sucker eventually just pulled apart.

[commanderpete]

So, now I have to build a new one.

Could somebody measure the step on their Commander (different than an Ariel).
I had gotten 1 3/4" in the front and 3/4" in the back.

Been thinking about what type of material to use. The material just needs to be dense and easily worked into shape. Waterproof would be nice too.

Thought about using King Starboard. They make it up to 1 1/2" thick. But, its hard to find in that thickness, and I might need to buy a 4' X 8' sheet when I only need 1 sq. foot. VERY expensive too.

Maybe marine plywood. Also hard to find in that thickness, and I might have to buy a full sheet (not cheap either). Maybe I could glue 2 thinner pieces together.

Not sure how easily I could work the plywood. Needs to be cut wedge-shaped, and then the bottom hollowed to fit the camber of the deck. (Band saw with some type of jig?)

Any ideas on materials or techniques?

[commanderpete]

Got some extra cracks in it removing it from the deck. No putting this one back together.

Smells awful too.

[CapnK]

C'pete -

Cheaper than Starboard, but very similar from what I understand, is sheet PVC board. In the pic below, a fellow used it to do major mods to the interior of a CP23. From what he told me about it, you can glass to it as well. I don't recall the exact name of the supply company which sells it, but they are well known, and it seems like the name was similar to "McMasters". If that doesn't ring a bell with someone here, I can ask at some other sites and get the name. I can't think of any reason why you couldn't bond two thin pieces together in order to get greater thickness, especially if you used a combo of chemical and mechanical bonds. Just some food for thought...

[ebb]

McMasters Carr.   A wonderful hardware/materials site.  You have to practice their catalog,  Then it is informative, easy to use, and might lead you to a material (in this case) that's even better than what you thought you went there for.

No boat shops or cabinet shops around Bayshore, Brightwaters and Babylon?
Powerboaters seem to love starboard,  maybe somebody at West Marine knows somebody.  No one person can afford a sheet of that stuff.   A pad could be made out of maranti, which is a phenolic ply board, sometimes called Aquaply and Hydroply, like that.   I think the original pads were the same with maybe better wood

I have 1/2" maranti.  I'll glue up 3 or 4 squares with epoxy into a sandwich, and mail it to ya.  Will you be able to shape it?  Not only a wedge shape but also radiused underneath for the cabin top?

[Jim Rester]

Pete

Commander #80's Mast step shown with 2 - 1/16" loose layers of lamination removed yesterday.  After removal, the overall thickness of the the aft edge was 5/32", the front edge 1-3/8"

After the removal of the loose layers there was a compression of 3/32" where the mast sat for 40 years. See the gap under the old folding rule in the pic.

I think my response will be-AFTER IT DRIES OUT- to build the concave area with FRP and incase the entire piece in epoxy which I will paint along with the deck.

SUGGESTIONS PLEASE!!!!

Jim

[ebb]

You are absolutely right,  you could build the mast pad in a tray form of the correct size with epoxy and matt.   Build the form,  Cut the shape out of blocks, say, and line the inside edges with cardboard or formica or scotch tape.   Attach the form to where you want it.  Lay in seran wrap or thin visqueen as a release.

Cut your matt in pieces to fit the shape.   Cut all the pieces and a few more.   Since this pad is a horizontal wedge cut a bunch of pieces into a step pattern and build it up until you can lay on a couple layers of the full pattern as you finish.     Lay the pcs up dry in the form first, and remove.  Preview.

I would use x-matt, an about 20 oz matt with roving loosely sewn to the top.  A yard by a yard would be too much.  Similar stuff comes in different weights and widths -  it'll all work in this case.  Use a 2-to-one 100% solids laminating epoxy resin with a slow hardner.   Slow hardner virtually assures it won't blush.   Use one quart 'multi-measure' plastic cups,  mix good,  then pour into another cup to use.

[Well,  I hope this is useful and not patronizing.
One last thing,   Since this is a small contained job and you have to use West System,  I would cut a piece of Mylar to fit in the form to press down on top of each exotherm stop. There is no way to fill the weave with runny epoxy.  This with your gloved fingers - press the weave into the liquid, leave the mylar, and it will set smooth.  If the mylar has a couple folds  in it, like tabs,it'll pull right off.  Only when set.  You can't get it off until you let it get  completely hard!  This might obstruct the blush from forming,  but if it does  form you have a smoother surface to wash.  Scuff it a bit with 40 grit befor you continue and it will be as if there was no interruption.]  put this under the next paragraph of this essay.

Paint on a juicey layer of mixed epoxy into the empty form - wet the whole bottom - and lay in the first piece of matt.   Paint on some more, wet it out, and start the wedge steps.   If you are going to stop to avoid heat buildup, place a whole piece of fiberglass over your steps and get it flattened and juicey befor you stop.   When the exotherm has subsided continue with the steps,  building up the deep end of the form.   No problem if you have to leave it a day or so.  (Your epoxy may blush, so you have to do what the specs say here,  but see the bracketed paragraph.)   Finish the top with whole pieces.   If you layer higher than the form leave the pad in  the form and use it  as a guide to work down to.  First day after set very 'easy' to beltsand, grind or file.   Try to avoid it.

It is possible to do the whole job in one sitting.   But exotherm would screw up your careful work.  I would split in into 2 or three sessions.   It can get so hot it will boil!  Two, 3, 4 layers (pieces) of matt.  let it go off,  waiting for cool down  befor the next set.   In cold temperatures this exotherm can be beneficial,  but watch it,  build on lukewarm only!

I often work on mylar.  Epoxy won't stick to it.  Get the heavier mil.   Stuff I use is 2 feet wide.   If you cast onto that you end up with an incredibly shiney smooth and flawless surface.   You might line the inside of your  pad  form sides with it.  Couple pieces double sided carpet tape would hold the mylar, however epoxy doesn't adhere to the vinyl peeler on the tape.  It'll stick good enough to the form, cut it to fit, leave peeler on.  Won't be exactly off the shelf like using mylar.

If it is cold  (like heat the deck from inside to start)  figure out a way to do a couple layers, let it harden and unscrew the mold from the deck :eek:  and take it inside,  that way you have the footprint.  I would try to do it all in place, tho.  

Instead of a form in pieces you might build up a form of fairly narrow one piece rings of plywood  (make it in the wedge shape you want when finished)   Called 'one off.'  When you unscrew it from the deck it wouldn't surprise me that you could press it right out of the form.  Mylar would help alot in this.  And a piece of mylar under a piece of ply pressed on to the top of your last layer so you get epoxy running out -  it'll look fantastic.   I would have started by laying down a sheet of mylar over the deck, and build on it.   When it is set you take it into the warm shop to finish it.  Using heavy weight mylar will give you a hard edge look to the finished piece.   I probably would not bother to put the extra release seran wrap in the form for that reason.   Form might get epoxied in places,  but it's sacrificed, so you can trash it.

If you wanna get fancy,  add universal color to the epoxy,  whatever color of the deck, or close.   It'll help with the UV.

It is a lotta fun.   Go for it.   Don't use carbon fiber (under an aluminum mast),  Kevlar would be good alternative.  Might get end of roll pieces cheap,  you don't care.    
Epoxy can take some time to set up in cold temps.   So you can see that NO BLUSH epoxy will get you thru the exothem steps without the extra bs, because you can build right on top without washing your work.  Any company that sells you expensive epoxy that blushes is NOT your friend.

[ If you go with the ring scenario and it's flat on the bottom and your deck is curved,  and you are not going to carve it so it lies snug,  you can fill  the spaces with modeling clay, or bondo.  Cut the smooch-out to the vertical sides of the form and tape in the mylar cut to fit the curve.   Any imperfections can be repaired later.   Why couldn't you also mold a mastbase  plug to the pad  making the two integral.   Wouldn't have the casting welding itself to the extrusion any more.  The mast would just lift right off!]

[commanderpete]

Jim, you could try encasing the step in fiberglass. Tim Lackey did that on his Triton.

However, although the step seems hard, the delaminated plywood may move/crush a little under the fiberglass over time--hence the cracking fiberglass I experienced. Then water gets in and rots the step some more.

The mast step will still work--it doesn't do anything but sit there anyway. It is certainly not going to fail in some catastophic fashion. Mine is just too far gone.

I think building a new step as ebb described is the way to go. Probably be easier than trying to shape material to fit.

I remember somebody doing this on a Pearson Renegade. Found the link

http://www.renegade27.org/mast.html

Maybe I can affix the bottom of a plastic tub to a rounded surface so it conforms to the shape of the deck.

Better yet, make the bottom of the tub the top of the step. Create a rounded wedge to mush into the tub.

[drm901]

I was reminded of this fact  - after I made the same mistake (only I used oak).  After it split after one season, I switched to marine grade plywood, with several good coats of West Systems.  Plywood, by design, is substantially stronger than any single piece of wood.  Each ply has the grain going in the opposite direction.  Since I do a lot of woodworking, I should have known this - before the reminder.

I fit the step to the deck with a belt sander, rasp, and finish sander.  After  100 fittings, it came out perfect.  As long as you take your time and not take off too much at a time, it works well.