Large Portlights

[bill@ariel231]

Good news for anyone looking for replicas of the Ariel/Triton large portlights (in bronze). I just picked up the first set of castings from Roger Winiarski at Bristol Bronze (401.625.5224). It looks like they will make a fine winter's project.

After suffering with the fractured originals, I thought I'd try having new ones fabricated a bit heftier than original. I supplied Bristol Bronze with a set of patterns approx 1/8th inch deeper in section in the hope of avoiding broken frames 10 years down the road.

I'll forward pictures as the installation process moves ahead.

For anyone so inclined, Roger still has the patterns. He can supply in any state from rough castings to ready-to-install.

cheers,
Bill@ariel231
 

[mbd]

Pictures?  Price?  Please?  :rolleyes:

[Robert Lemasters]

Your portlight replacements should look great in bronze. I have a question about bronze, it's not a little work to keep bronze clean and shinney. Is there some kind of varnish that can be applied to keep them from tarnishing? My portlights on my Commander have been replaced with bronze portholes and they tarnish in about a week after being cleaned and polished.(Thanks for mentioning Bristol Bronze they still have my Pearson Commander potmetel insignia things) :eek:

[Bill]

I have a question about bronze, it's not a little work to keep bronze clean and shinney. --snip-- My portlights . . . tarnish in about a week after being cleaned and polished.

That's the beauty of bronze.  Let them weather and soon you have the look of bronze statues -- a low maintenance finish.     Never touch the bronze on Maika'i.

[bill@ariel231]

Pictures?  Price?  Please?  :rolleyes:

I'll have to look at my receipts. I had the castings processed to a sanded finish. I'll take care of the machining and polishing for Ariel#231. rough price was in the range of $500 or so in this state. Suggest calling Bristol Bronze for details (i don't know what the final price for a machined and polished set will run).

Bill@ariel231

[ebb]

Hello bill@ariel231

Can you describe please how the inner frame is connected to the outer frame?
My aluminum frames were held together with seriously small machine screws that were screwed into uncomfortably tiny blind seats.
Thanks!

[bill@ariel231]

Hello bill@ariel231

Can you describe please how the inner frame is connected to the outer frame?
My aluminum frames were held together with seriously small machine screws that were screwed into uncomfortably tiny blind seats.
Thanks!

The originals appear to be 8-32 machine screws. I'm hoping the deeper section will buy me a couple more threads in the outer frame. Based on the construction of some other port glass retainers, I've heard suggestions the threads should be through the outer frame (it saves time, it will hold better). however, I'm still going to try the blind seat per the original, worst case, I'll move up to 10-32 or 10-24 machine screws.  :)

[edited 5 dec -  I spent sunday drilling and tapping the frames.. the final implementation was 10-24 thread. I still get 8 turns or so per fastener]

Attached is a cross section:

[ebb]

OH OH Bill I just read your first post, Sorry!  But won't edit this below...YOUR patterns,  VERY cool,  NOW you MUST show and tell!!!  As a woodworker I know how much effort went into making that pattern perfect.  But a big plus may have been (when I disassembled the lights, discovered that all frames in and out, except for a few details that could be taken care of at the foundry?) were ONE pattern.

Thanks Bill,
This now sounds like you are doing all the machining.
Roger is not providing any of this ?  For 500 smackeroonies.
What did he want for dressing up the castings?
Theres is a lot of work in that if you are not set up for it on site.
I'm guessing these frames are not actually paired UNTIL they get machined as a pair?
Are you doing the blind tapping also?  My frames are very flat in profile leaving no room for a mistake in drilling.  And if I remember, no more than a couple threads in the hole.  Pearson depended on the squeezability of the cabin liner to draw the frames together. (Your drawing shows a much thicker frame than 338's aluminum ones.

Went to the trouble of restoring and powder coating the aluminums redrilled for thru bolts with heads countersunk on the exterior.  Much stronger but not ocean proof nor as classy as bronze with hidden fasteners  that Winiarski has talked so long about befor offering these frames - just wanted to know what he had there.

What did he quote for ready to install? Polished, predrilled and countersunk inners?  As the Admiral once pointed out in this forum - once they are paired you have two separate sets of the 4 paired frames.  Lotta work.
Thanks again.

[The bronze frames I've lusted after that I've seen on The Admiral's boat and West Coast Tritons SEEM to be close in profile to the aluminum I became so familiar with.  Bristol Bronze would had to have new full sized patterns made for the new bronze unless they have finally found original patterns to cast from.  They would have to stay with original stuff since you cannot cast using existing frames as the result would be smaller overall frames.  338 has barely 1/4" lap all around on the existing cutout - a smaller frame could not be used!
I'm sure bill@ariel231 checked this out with Roger.  It will be my first question if I decide to go for the gold er bronze.]  And what do these retro frames weigh, is it an issue?


Bill231 You Gotta Give Us a Pic ASAP!  ....and an OA length/width measure?
TOUSAND TAK!!!

______________________________________________________________________________________

By the by, your work has now passed into a sort of patternmaker's D.Jone's Locker, a nail on the wall in his office - as Roger does not return patterns!!!

[bill@ariel231]

aye pattern(s)... actually there were a total of 4 parts to the pattern assembled into two "matched plates" (left/right each with an inside/outside for lack of better terms).  

outside dimensions of the final part are:
bronze:   11.0 x 23.75 inches
original:   10.75 x 23.5 inches

The cutout is close to the same:
bronze: 10 1/8th x 23.0
original: 10 1/8th x 22 7/8ths

As for the state of the castings, The ones I've taken delivery on have flat mating surfaces. The work to go is the drilling and tapping (hey for me that's the fun part). I'm happy with the price, it's way less than the guy who wanted $20K for just the patterns. As I recall, that vendor's price was $1800 for the set. I recommend calling Bristol Bronze for the actual price since this is still the prototype phase. Based on my talk with Roger, the price for ready-to-install set (through drilled for the sake of simplification) would probably be somewhere around $800 plus or minus a boat unit).

Here is the pattern for the "right inside/outside"

[ebb]

Can make models, but don't really know the procedures.

Got a powder coated 'luminum frame right here
and the length matches your bronze exactly.
Width of my outside frame  is exactly 10 13/16".
That means your 3/16" wider width is a great benefit for getting more 'tooth', a scoch more overlap,  on these yawning openings in Ariel 338.  Not being sarcastic.

The thickness  of the aluminum frame, with its melted polyester coating is 9/32" - 1/32" more than 1/4".  It is hard to imagine how a threaded hole could have been machined into the center ridge of these frames.  The smaller the screw the more threads per inch - could be why these aluminum originals were fastened with 6/32.  Swear to that.  About a half dozen had failed in 338, usually lower ones where leaking water had corroded the fastenings.  Actually the aluminum corroded, less so the ss screws.

'1/8" added to the roundness.'  
Let's say that makes it 3/8s from the center of the radius to the flat inside, that will make it more easy to get the 10/24 to find meat.  Jamestown has sb 10/32, much to be prefered.  And provide 4 strong seaworthy windows not depending on silicone snot to hold them together.

Now that 338's liner has been filled around the perimeter of the openings, and the cabin sides made rigid, there is no fudge adjustment using the flex of the liner when clamping the windows in place.  So a deeper thread socket will make it easier to custom  each screw to the length needed to install watertight windows.  Something to aim for,  Thru bolting is a viable option.

It may be possible to install them so solidly and well that storm shutters would be needed only as a last resort.  Because the windows are not attached to the cabin but 'float' in the opening I've been thinking of using BoatLife's hybrid silicone-urethane caulking-adhesive with 3/8" lexan as the lens.

Very curious how you will go about prepping your frames and hope you will show us how it goes!

THANKS for making the bronze frames happen for us.  

Maybe the price would go down some if we would put together a group order

[Sprite]

Has anyone done ss in the frames. I have earlier model aluminium frames.
The ones Pearson got from a dutch company so I think they are metric.
Anyone know who does casting on the East Coast for stainless for these
windows or portlights.

John

[bill@ariel231]

Early model Tritons shared the same aluminum casting with the Ariels (Triton #15 is stored next to Ariel #231 this winter,  we've compared the original parts they are dimensionally identical). Some Triton models (e.g. Triton  #381 built in 1963) were originally shipped with nickle (or chrome) plated bronze port light frame.

For those with deep pockets, chrome is always an option.....

[Bill]

Has anyone done ss in the frames.

Pearson had the same window frames cast in ss for the Vanguard.  With a pattern, it becomes your chioce of metal.  BB, however, is unlikely to have the casting capabilty for anything but bronze.  Maybe aluminum, but I don't believe he does anything in that metal.  IMHO, bronze is the way to go.  Probably last longer than ss, too  

[bill@ariel231]

pictures, pictures.. here are the frames as I got them.

Image #1 - bronze frame vs. aluminum original
Image #2 - interior surfaces of bronze frames
Image #3 - view of inside/outside frames mated

I'll update once I've drilled and tapped the frames.....

enjoy,
bill@ariel231

[c_amos]

Bill,
 
  Those frames look great!  I sure would like to have a set myself.
 
Anyone else interested in a group order?