para anchor vs series drogue

[ebb]

It is a Scott Galloway thread where we had discussion about singlehanded safety and getting back on board after a mishap.  Scott was very generous showing his system, which included a rope ladder that would be pulled down by someone in the water.

I wouldn't have chance to pull myself up onto Augustine's deck.  I need a much more substantail method that would sustain a soaking wet overweight pissedoff frightened septagenarian.

There definitely will be an overbuilt pushpit on 338.  There very well could be a strong fold down ladder on the stern.  There is no way that normal people can climb on board a boat from the water without a least two rungs under the water.  I'm supernormal,  I  perfer three!   Would you agree that in a turmoil the stern of the boat is the most accessable for a man overboard to climb back?  That's what I think,  seeing myself in the drink.

Therefor that bridle becomes very important.  If you step where the three lines are joined, where does that put you at the transom.  Can you fold down the rigid ladder from there?  Maybe the bridle could be rigged with extra steps.

There is no way one can predict a correct method of saving your own life.  You rig the best  jacklines and tethers and wear the best gear to prevent an accident.  I can see a slip and a bang and ending up groggy and hurt in the water still connected to the boat.  Would work my self aft and yank the tripline of the seriesdrogue.   There's lots of lovely orange stuff to grab handfulls of.  As it streams out it slows the boat,  My legs  become vertical as I step into the bridle, wait a moment for the stern to dip and quick reach for all that nice welded tubing!

[Bryan Glover]

Dear Ebb and Epiphany
I will have a look at the site re advertising.
as for man overboard lifesaving equipment, You could have a safety line attached to the drogue to pull it out from the water but maybe its better to have someting better trailing all the time.
Other uses for the drogue. my drogue that i am testing has 2 lines one with 70 cones and one with 30 cones. joined by eye splices. I also have lines that run from the bridlelegs to my sheet winches, with the 30 cones attached I can use this set up for steering the boat if my rudder or steering is disabled, without slowing me down too much. I think it would work fine with 20 cones.
The drogue line and leader can also be used as extra ground anchor line in an emergency.
I have a very small series drogue with 10 cones, on 8 meters of line, I use this when coming ashore in my dingy to a beach, this is enough to stop the dingy broaching in the shore break,
I am in the process of designing an all purpose bag for the drogue that will hang on cockpit rail, and assist in deployment. sailrite have a pattern for a storage/deployment bag on their site, but its not right.
I went to a funeral today, in a small coastal town called Port Fairy, on the central south coast of Victoria. This is a fishing, potato growing, and dairy farms, it was settled by the Irish in the 1840's and has not changed one bit.
The gentleman who died was 90 and had been a blacksmith/wheel wright. The service was catholic and at the wake good whisky flowed, with cold beer in between. A lot of these old men were 5th or more generation from the district, but still had some Irish accent. These blokes fished in small boats 20 to 25 ft, they were interested in the series drogue, but roared with laughter at the idea, but did say that when in a bad storms (this is bass strait) they would trail their net behind them, sometimes for days at a time.
regards
Bryan

[ebb]

I'm sure to order the full 100 (maybe more) when the IRS is finished squeezing me and I find out what I have left in the bank.  

Don't know what you have in mind for the ondeck deployment bag (with the tail end eye exposed - you know, hook on the weight and toss it) but if it is simple to stow the rig it would be likely to get practiced or played with.  Unlike a lifesling that gets faded and moldy and somewhat a mystery in its wrap.  "Hey. skipper, Can't read the instructions!  How do you open this thing!!"  

'Simple' would be that it goes back into the bag as it is pulled from the water, or easily repacked from the cockpit.  Have to wash it first, right?   I am sure to install tangs off the quarters, so the bridle would also be continuously shackled to the boat.   Since the device is actually made by the person who is going to use it,  it has the advantage of being up close and personal.

Would be great exercise and fun to learn to steer with the rudder lashed and various lengths of cones and bridles.  Get to know your friendly drogue, folks.

Question:
Suppose we call the automatically deployed series drouge of 70 cones for the Ariel/Commander the 'passive' one.  This is the boatsaver drogue attached to chainplates.   I would still have the option of weight or float to add to the drouge befor pulling the cord.   I think I would sail with a float or fender clipped on and trail a fathom of knotted propylene.  

For the moment I can't see how lines from the bridle could be led to port and starboard cockpit winches.  (Unless an extra pair of lines are clipped to the bridle eye at the tether and led up to chocks and to the winches.)  Would this make for more control in a storm situation?  At least it does provide a retieval method.  And load would only be on the winches by choice, as the drogue load is on the quarters.  

So the question is, do you think separate and shorter cone series could be streamed off the quarters for directional control?  Or more braking?  They obviously could be removed at any time.  (The 'active' ones)  Too much?  Feasible?   Anyway, assume there'll be plenty of time to custom the system once it is onboard!

??

At this time there has been more than 200 hits on this thread,  so, as often is the case on this site,  there has been some interest from the ostrich farm but most still have their heads in the sand.  I'm sure they will get hungry soon!

[Bryan Glover]

Dear Ebb
The series drogue is designed to save you and your boat in a once in a life time storm, such as the fastnet or 1998 syd-hobart, you cannot play around with the design. Don Jordan spent 5 years, working with coast guard getting it right.
In saying that, I play around with small changes for my own use, I dont sell these changes.
One addition to the basic design is 2 extra lines running from rings built into the bridle legs to the sheet winches. 2 years ago in a storm in bass strait following the 40 deg south line I used this system to steer in 60k winds to the lee of the Kent group of islands. The details will be in the next issue of DDDB. Here is a photo of my boat a 28ft swanson

[ebb]

Hey Bryan'
Gotcha.  Know where you're coming from.
Tough little boat you got there!

DDDB = Drag Device Data Base

Seriously thinking about going blue?  Just for fun, check out:
'Cruising Home. Sea Anchor. Drogue, Radar Detection, DDDB, Para Tech'
//www.cruisinghome.com/main.htm

"this is a test, this has only been a test"
ebb's an ole wind bag
but he got three stitches on every seam :rolleyes:

[Theis]

Bryan:

I found your comments most interesting and insightful, and thank you for taking the time.

A couple comments before my questions.  As a background, I cruise the Great Lakes.  Fresh water waves are steeper and more closely spaced than ocean waves.  The theoretical maximum wave height is about 35 feet, with, in a bad storm, 20-25 foot waves being regularly encountered.  Winds can get up into the 100+ mph range in extreme storms, but the duration is generally limited to less than a couple hours before it tapers off to the 50 mph range.  A day or two of 50 mph would be maximum and extreme.  When the very high winds occur - at the onset of a storm -, the seas are generally flat, the waves tops being blown off the water surface.  Later the waves come up.

Lake Michigan is only 80 miles across, with many islands in the northern reaches, so going aground on a leward shore is a very real threat.  Another threat is the cold - a reason to go below for a bit.  But, because of freighter traffic, and other boats, a skipper would be unlikely to stay below for too long (there might be exceptionsto this rule).

I have not experienced the Ariel swinging when at anchor.  I have been in some strong storms at anchor, and the boat has always pointed to weather, so I don't think swinging is a problem (but don't know when socked by waves).

I do have a para-tech sea anchor, with a rig that holds the sea anchor a variable angle of about 30 degrees off the bow quarter.  I test it each year in 25 mph winds (I try not to go out when it is blowing more and have been lucky not to get caught).  The thing is wonderful, but scares me when it comes to more violent weather, principally because of my previous experience with a single cone drogue.

1.  How big (volume - dimensions) is the series drogue for an A/C when stowed.  I don't have much space - space being more limited than weight.

2.  I had a drogue many years ago, and it scared the you know what out of me.  Two problems.  The bow consistently fell off, leaving me sailing full bore  parallel to the waves.  I couldn't turn downwind or up wind.  The force on the drogue was so severe that I couldn't get it in either.  I didn't have to cut the line, but came close to doing so.  What is the liklihood that I would have a similar experience with the series drogue?

3.  I have given considerable consideration to whether the drogue/sea anchor should be mounted from the bow or the stern, and have concluded the bow, or bow quarter are best.  Unlike your example, I expect to be in the cockpit continuously.  The Lake waves are steeper, although they don't have the energy of ocean waves.  My experience heaving-to makes me feel more comfortable heading into the wind.  Generally, sailboats with more engine power, motor into the wind in this part to hold position.  Does this information change your preference of bow or stern?

4.  How do you recover the device when the wind tapers down to a cool 30-50 knots?  How do you collapse it when there is a strain?

5.  Paratech recommends 400 feet of line.  How much line does the series drogue require?  Their theory is that the line should span two crests so that the line is never slack or skipping over the water.

6.  Can you envision having both a series drogue and a sea anchor?  If so, when would you use one and when the other?

I look forward to your comments and thank you.

[CapnK]

I reread K Adlard Coles "Heavy Weather Sailing" this week. Fascinating stuff, enough so that you can almost start the book over again as soon as you've finished. At the same time, it makes one look at their boat in a new and interesting way, from the perspective perhaps of a 35-50' breaking swell in Force 7 or stronger winds.

Getting into that extreme of a storm, the experiences gathered together in the book seem to say that lying bow-to in a sea of that state is a definite no-no, and the strategy of those who had most successfully survived the nastier of the nasty's was to run off before the storm, keeping enough way on the boat for good steerage, but not allowing her to overspeed (at the risk of broaching or pitchpole). Large breaking swells coming from abaft can thus be taken 15-20 degrees from the quarter to minimize their impact on the boat, while allowing the swell to pass onward so that the boat doesn't surf with it. (The one noteable exception to this was Dumas, whose boat it must be pointed out was designed to be able to be surfed at up to 15 knots in survival storm conditions encountered below 40 South.)

It would seem that the series drogue, which was not invented yet at the time of the books publication, would be an almost ideal tool for attempting this strategy. Easier to handle and stow than large 2" warps or auto tires, it might be a good idea to carry 2 or more of them if one was venturing far offshore into areas where such conditions might develop.

A couple other observations gleaned from this recent reading -

It hurts to say this, but our shapely Ariel sterns might not be the best type to have during these sorts of conditions - the book favors double-enders with a good bit of volume in their fannies (like Bryans boat, or the Colin Archer designs). That shape enables the stern being lifted by the water of the collapsing sea as it rushes down on the boat.

Nearly all the boats which had problems had too-small cockpit drains. You have to be able to let the water out *fast*, before the next one comes down on you. Of course, the larger the cockpit, the more important this is. (Anyone else recall Robin Lee Graham decking over the cockpit of "Dove" after having similar experiences?) I'm thinking that perhaps it might be a good idea to design a box to fit and fasten into the cockpit footwell, one which will reduce the amount of fillable area, as well as  serving as a storage space, perhaps for the series drogue(s) or similar, and maybe the infamous "ditch bag" filled with survival stuff.

Nearly all the damage reported by boats which were tossed or slammed down by giant waves came from *the impact experienced on the lee side of the boat*[/b], when it came to a sudden stop after being thrown forward by a wave. That's right, it's not the wave impact which stoves in the cabin top or deadlights, it's the impact against the water of the wave or trough *ahead* which is strong enough to burst or break things, in a surprising majority of the stories related in the book.

As I said before, fascinating stuff.

[ebb]

Hey, looking at Bryan's boat's pointy stern,
why would you think the Ariel's stern is less bouyant with the transom?

Lee shore danger may require a seaANCHOR,
but pulling a series drogue off a bridle (so the boat is dead on the wind & waves) when you got room in a terrible storm with breaking crests that come aboard is the ONLY way I can see - so far.  Tuning the boat for the conditions seems difficult at the moment (lack of experience).   Are there times when more cones should be streamed than others?   Will there be a time when the drogue should be offcenter?

Getting the water immediately off the boat is imperitive.
Closing the cockpit well off entirely seems worth considering.  If the cockpit is rigged for sleeping maybe a clever folding system of panels would work that could still allow working access.   There is a lot of weight in the volume of the footwell alone.
On 338, higher coamings for back support will require relieving ports.  Imagining a wave filling the back end of the Ariel in terms of weight seems a little overwhelming.

But the closed volume of bouyancy aft in the Ariel has to be at least proportionally equal if not more to Bryan's.   NO? :confused:

[CapnK]

Perhaps not less buoyant, but easier for the wave to push on (or ahead), instead of flow around.

Thinking of it that way, the reverse slope of the transom might help push the stern up on an Ariel.

[Theis]

For whatever it is worth, I don't recall ever being pooped in the Ariel, and that includes some good sized seas -well over ten feet (fresh water, steep) - probably more like 15 feet.  However, those puppies have come pretty close to running over the transom.  That situation, as I recall, was under sail on a clear day.  At night you have no idea of how large the waves are.  They look bigger, and scarier.

Re: putting the drogue/sea anchor fore or aft, I generally also drag a dinghy astern.  One of the problems is that when the series drogue or sea anchor is deployed, the skipper has no idea if he/she will be encountering a bad storm, and is properly set up for it, or whether he/she will be facing the 1,000 year storm/waves that Bryan talks about.

One thought is that perhaps the key to running a series drogue from the stern is that the drag be limited (unlike a sea anchor which stops a craft relatively dead) so that the craft does shoot ahead freely, but is held hard enough so that the bow does not get caught causing the vessel to pitch pole or broach.  But then, how do you know, in advance, how many cones that entails to match the drag to the vessel (entails - what a great term for putting drogues astern).

The comments about the cockpit filling are very on point.  If the cockpit fills with the first wave, there is no lift when the second wave comes a few moments later (I think the big ones come in threes, as I recall).

[ebb]

Have read that the whole cockpit area should empty in 90 seconds.   Assume that is up to the companionway threshold.  Thought might be given to tight fitted drop boards.  Watertight cockpit seat lids  A couple large capacity manual pumps in the cockpit and below.   Never aluminum!   Best plan is to fill the cockpit with water and time the runout!   Probably fit larger drains, run 3 or 4" pvc pipe straight out the transom.   Of course, once it is filled with water it won't be able to take on any more.

The series drogue will still allow the A/C serious but controllable speed. 3, 4, 5 knots.   Whole idea is to allow waves to pass under the boat and to go with the flow to reduce impact of nasty water.   IE, if the storm is going 90 mph and so are you,  then relative to the storm you are standing still.   Have a feeling less water will come aboard from the stern under series drogue than from the bow under sea-anchor.   Have to take Bryon's tested recommendation of 70 to 100 cones and run with that.   Literally.  :eek:

//www.jordanseriesdrogue
is the Ace Sailmakers' dedicated site for the jordan drogue.   You get to meet the designer and the (first) maker for sale of this remarkable invention.   The site has a revealing page to visit called Storm Waves, read it.  It's a good site to visit to round out your knowledge on an event you probably haven't experienced nor likely to.   I'm convinced,  with  seemingly freaky weather changes occuring more often,  that a jordan drogue rolled up on the stern is a very important piece of safety gear to have ready to go.   Bryon has a better deal on the cones.
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There is a verbal description of wrapping up the drogue beginning on a flat piece of canvas with the bridle ends led to their attachment points on either side of the transom - then the drogue is flaked (figure eights) on top - ending with the chain on top of that.  A flap of material is brought over the bundle creating a roll closed with velcro.  This method has never produced a tangle.  It is deployed by ripping the roll open and tossing in the chain.

I guess it would be about as wide as the stern.

It's not hard to imagine packing the roll carefully and tight in the cockpit with the bridle ends folded on top and the package put in the cockpit locker.  When needed (befor it's needed) it is hung outside the stern rail with the bridle ends attached.