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Ariel & Commander Owners
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#91
General/Off-Topic / Ariel 97 for sale
Last post by carbonsoup - March 17, 2022, 12:01:31 PMWith a heavy heart, I must pass on Ariel #97 to another. I had originally purchased the boat and sailed it while my mother recovered from a SAH stroke in Washington DC. But, as thing happens, I engulfed myself in the huge project of retrofitting the entire boat. Well, six years later and it is not finished. I had made tremendous progress the first two years, nearly completing it. However, the boat has sat for a long while in my shop waiting, and waiting, and waiting… for me to return.
Quite frankly I have barely touched it these last couple years, as a matter of fact I may have added a couple more projects…
The retrofit, list, in no particular order:
1. Interior completely deleted and replaced with a unique design suitable for two to cruise Maine to the Bahamas. all interior plywood Okume BS1088 marine grade plywood. Sleeping for 4 (1 bunk under cockpit, large double in main salon, 1 bunk in bow) 85% complete
2. Retrofitted Four-Winns trailer motor boat trailer (2 axle w/disk brakes and pivoting tongue) 100% complete
3. Custom electric drive mount w/ 8.5K electric motor (complete electric motor kit has been mounted and test fit, but never tested/run), 75%
4. new PPY no drip drive shaft, 100%
5. new cutlas bearing, 100%
6. hull/deck seam fiberglassed, 100%
7. deck recored (previous owner), 100%
8. new stainless steel prop shaft, 100%
9. 3 blade (12x) prop, 100%
10. new main 4:1 sheet w/curved main sheet traveler, ready for mount
11. curved jib sheet tracks, ready for mount
12. rudder, completely new w/original bronze tiller shaft. needs final fiber and fairing. 90%
13. main sail, brand new (used a dozen times) Beacon Sails in Annapolis
14. hull mounted chain plates (interior), 90%
Extras:
1. I started designing / fabricating a bowsprit (18”) from 316 Stainless steel to help with the weather helm.
2.
What she needs:
1. rebuild cockpit coamings. I have 5/4 mahogany planks ready with pattern.
2. complete wiring, including electric drive integration and batteries.
3. needs all new lighting
4. electric drive testing
5. Remounting of all the original hardware
6. A name
Needs
1. The boat needs top side paint and deck painted.
Boat exterior has been sanded, faired and barrier coated.
2. interior cabinets needs to be finished, hardware installed and painted.
How much:
1. 7,000. (not including all the new build material or labor- just new unused parts: trailer 5-7k, main sail 1.5k, electric motor kit 2k)
2. I might be interested in partnerships…. if someone had some motivation and the ability to buy 50% stake in the project
for a quick response and direct contact info; 415-225-6177
thanks, matt
***google drive link for construction info and photos.***
https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...vh?usp=sharing
Quite frankly I have barely touched it these last couple years, as a matter of fact I may have added a couple more projects…
The retrofit, list, in no particular order:
1. Interior completely deleted and replaced with a unique design suitable for two to cruise Maine to the Bahamas. all interior plywood Okume BS1088 marine grade plywood. Sleeping for 4 (1 bunk under cockpit, large double in main salon, 1 bunk in bow) 85% complete
2. Retrofitted Four-Winns trailer motor boat trailer (2 axle w/disk brakes and pivoting tongue) 100% complete
3. Custom electric drive mount w/ 8.5K electric motor (complete electric motor kit has been mounted and test fit, but never tested/run), 75%
4. new PPY no drip drive shaft, 100%
5. new cutlas bearing, 100%
6. hull/deck seam fiberglassed, 100%
7. deck recored (previous owner), 100%
8. new stainless steel prop shaft, 100%
9. 3 blade (12x) prop, 100%
10. new main 4:1 sheet w/curved main sheet traveler, ready for mount
11. curved jib sheet tracks, ready for mount
12. rudder, completely new w/original bronze tiller shaft. needs final fiber and fairing. 90%
13. main sail, brand new (used a dozen times) Beacon Sails in Annapolis
14. hull mounted chain plates (interior), 90%
Extras:
1. I started designing / fabricating a bowsprit (18”) from 316 Stainless steel to help with the weather helm.
2.
What she needs:
1. rebuild cockpit coamings. I have 5/4 mahogany planks ready with pattern.
2. complete wiring, including electric drive integration and batteries.
3. needs all new lighting
4. electric drive testing
5. Remounting of all the original hardware
6. A name
Needs
1. The boat needs top side paint and deck painted.
Boat exterior has been sanded, faired and barrier coated.
2. interior cabinets needs to be finished, hardware installed and painted.
How much:
1. 7,000. (not including all the new build material or labor- just new unused parts: trailer 5-7k, main sail 1.5k, electric motor kit 2k)
2. I might be interested in partnerships…. if someone had some motivation and the ability to buy 50% stake in the project
for a quick response and direct contact info; 415-225-6177
thanks, matt
***google drive link for construction info and photos.***
https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...vh?usp=sharing
#92
Gallery / EBB's PHOTO GALLERY THREAD
Last post by ebb - February 14, 2022, 11:53:44 AMTHANKS BILL !!
Large image is a bit much. Wasn't planned. But Ray was exchanging emails.
I all along after absorbing the shock of first seeing the hollow letters, still was
suggesting more airyness in the spread of the letters, and by the fourth try
this is what appeared -- as large.
Ray had pasted the first samples on an image of the starboard side of the
boat -- this one only shows the sheer rub rail. It does mean that the name
will be rather large to my eye, as I wasn't ready for this, not having fully
imagined it.
Still not sure if I'm ready for the boat name to be plastered all over the hull
like a freighter.. if Little Gull was wood, name and port would never have escaped
the transom. And like the port of call, all block upper-case letters devoid of air,
stiff and proper like sailors on muster.
But I almost immediately accepted the relaxed hollow letters, and their cartoony
casual nature.
Realize the contraction of little into lit (e)l will upset some, altho argument has
little weight given what has happened to language since the advent of the
personal computer.
The 'g' is now the fulcrum of some stems of balanced font shapes that might be
seen on a poster or book cover. To me the play is restrained enuf, it might
be controversial but it's contemporary.
Supple translation of the contracted name: litlgull with Ray's careful choreography
or spread of the individual letters is lit (e)l gull.. .. .. all instantly readable..
Kind of like arguing whether the letter x is a necessary letter in the alphabet!
It ain't serious it's for fun. Given Ray, to translate onto vinyl, another bird lozenge
more realistic less outlined. Crazy weather, everything seems half fast.
Large image is a bit much. Wasn't planned. But Ray was exchanging emails.
I all along after absorbing the shock of first seeing the hollow letters, still was
suggesting more airyness in the spread of the letters, and by the fourth try
this is what appeared -- as large.
Ray had pasted the first samples on an image of the starboard side of the
boat -- this one only shows the sheer rub rail. It does mean that the name
will be rather large to my eye, as I wasn't ready for this, not having fully
imagined it.
Still not sure if I'm ready for the boat name to be plastered all over the hull
like a freighter.. if Little Gull was wood, name and port would never have escaped
the transom. And like the port of call, all block upper-case letters devoid of air,
stiff and proper like sailors on muster.
But I almost immediately accepted the relaxed hollow letters, and their cartoony
casual nature.
Realize the contraction of little into lit (e)l will upset some, altho argument has
little weight given what has happened to language since the advent of the
personal computer.
The 'g' is now the fulcrum of some stems of balanced font shapes that might be
seen on a poster or book cover. To me the play is restrained enuf, it might
be controversial but it's contemporary.
Supple translation of the contracted name: litlgull with Ray's careful choreography
or spread of the individual letters is lit (e)l gull.. .. .. all instantly readable..
Kind of like arguing whether the letter x is a necessary letter in the alphabet!
It ain't serious it's for fun. Given Ray, to translate onto vinyl, another bird lozenge
more realistic less outlined. Crazy weather, everything seems half fast.
#93
Gallery / Transom signage
Last post by Bill - February 11, 2022, 10:20:27 PMLetters and LarusMinutas are 8-10" and will be applied to the hull just under the rub rail at the sheer in the region of the cockpit. Ray Balanger Apache Signs is the inspiration for the font, my art is blatant borrowing, Ebb contributed some arrangement. Ray is the genius. Port of Call for documentation will be San Francisco CA in 4" letters across the top of the transom.
#94
General/Off-Topic / Welcome 2022
Last post by ebb - February 11, 2022, 03:45:41 PMBest to us who remain here. Just learned PAA was hacked a while back
and the premises here are in lockdown.. no newbies are able to join. But
I'm not sure why. The site here is in a virtual Covid lockdown. It's
depressing to enjoy this incredible planet with thugs and spoilers for
whom all forms of violence is the truth.
May this year be buttery for you!
and the premises here are in lockdown.. no newbies are able to join. But
I'm not sure why. The site here is in a virtual Covid lockdown. It's
depressing to enjoy this incredible planet with thugs and spoilers for
whom all forms of violence is the truth.
May this year be buttery for you!
#96
General/Off-Topic / Welcome 2022
Last post by Bill - December 30, 2021, 01:33:29 PMHere's to everyone having a great New Year ... including more sailing opportunities! :cool:
#97
Technical / Navigation Lights
Last post by ebb - December 16, 2021, 02:44:12 PMp bryant. Give this guy your full attention. Ebb is way too wordy and gets confused.
It's the end of the year almost -- I feel like this one, 2021, deserves a big boot, but
there are many confused and destructive souls around that only time can cure. At
the moment even a mutating virus is smarter than science.
MAST HEAD LIGHT CONFUSION
So I won't mention Colregs or IRPCS.
What is a steaming light? It is a FORWARD FACING NAV LIGHT.
It is not an ALL ROUND. It is a WHITE light displaying a 225 degree
forward facing arc. All boats have this light including freighters.
Sailboats have the same light so they are able to legally power
at night without using their sails. Along with a 360degree allround
tricolor at the top of a mast OR a spread of three red, green, and
white navigation lights at deck level. Never both at the same time.
At deck level We have red/green sidelights as a bi-color in the pulpit
and/or at the cabin's aft corners - also never lit at the same time.
The pulpit combo light even at IP67 is vulnerable and exposed.
Redundant side lights seems prudent..
Sailboats use the term 'mast head light' for a 225degree navlight
found above deck level usually mounted on the mast. We could use
a white stern light up there, but it would not be appropriate. These
days the forward facing light is combined with a down facing white
spot light. It is not a navigation light. At night it lights up the
foredeck (and messes with your night vision). And legally would not
be on at the same time as the steaming lamp.
How to keep this straight? Simple.. Consider and spell it
'mast HEADLIGHT',
like your wheels. That would arrange the other spelling as MASTHEAD
light. No single light we have nav lights up there ljke the tri-color,
port - stbd - stern - allround white light called ANCHORlight - never
used when the vessel is moving. We do NOT have a legal navigation
masthead light. You
certainly can call the tricolor mast-top a single fixture (sometimes the
combo nav light that sometimes may include the allround white anchor
lamp.) But mast headlight is better reserved as navigation
nomenclature for a forward facing white lamp of a vessel UNDER POWER.
And that is why a mast headlight is not at the mast head (mast top).
There is a movement afloat to sail at night offshore with
RED OVER GREEN,
allround nav lights that pbryant is a proponent. He has posted here and
elaborated on a Cruising site how to wire and switch the system. Serious
cruisers are unanimous in NOT obeying the single tricolor on a dark hull
directive. If you will, they say it's at your peril. But it is the current rule..
If you insist, I suggest for our boats a 3NM tricolor..
I've now gone with MARINEBEAM 3.5" x 3" plastic IP67 navlights. At the
moment I'll go with the redundancy of having a red/green bicolor in the
pulpit and a 2nd set on the cabin-trunk sides where the originals were.
Creative mounting require4d. $89 ea. 2021.
I chatted with mb & asked him if they had a R.O.G. in the works.. Nope.
They will have to come up with something soon, there's $$$ to be made
there. imco, in a dark & stormy night it's preferable to be lit up like a truck.
Marinebeam wld be reasonable and do it right.
pbryant has a solution that makes sense. He has mounted two allround
greens about a meter down his mast on the opposite port & starboard
sides when lit up throw enuf green to look green all round -- and with
the single red allround on the mast-top passes for R.O.G. (Green has double
the lumens but the red is in the alpha spot.) His single 3 position toggle
switch solution exists here or on the Cruising site, he hasn't revealed whose
allrounds he used. At night we'd probably have a reef in the main -- sure
I would! [This toggle switch is intuitive. Will find & record it here.]
MOST IMPORTANT.. we in R.O.G. at the same time are allowed to have our
DECK LIGHTS ON. And the ability to indicate the vessel's length with pulpit
and stern lights seems prudent. Red over Green, with its unique separation,
is instantly recognizable by professionals as a sailboat under sail.
R.O.G. is for an offshore boat under sail at night. Personally, sailing r.o.g.
I wld have the pulpit bi-color on, the cabin mounted green and red off,
and stern light on. And the r.o.g. instantly registers with the lookout
size, type, direction, location and speed of the interloper. If lookout on the
other vessel isn't responding, I'd probably use a wildly agitated spotlight.
Or a flare!~!
Some time ago evidently I followed thru on this & lo found in my stash 3
allround HELLA LAMPS: two green, one red. Base is 3", stand-out about
3", which is a stretch for an apparent single lamp 3"+mast 3.5"+3". 2NM
- LED - CE - 9-33V. Found inside the blister-pac: IP67. $105.99 ea. 6/2018.
Take care..
It's the end of the year almost -- I feel like this one, 2021, deserves a big boot, but
there are many confused and destructive souls around that only time can cure. At
the moment even a mutating virus is smarter than science.
MAST HEAD LIGHT CONFUSION
So I won't mention Colregs or IRPCS.
What is a steaming light? It is a FORWARD FACING NAV LIGHT.
It is not an ALL ROUND. It is a WHITE light displaying a 225 degree
forward facing arc. All boats have this light including freighters.
Sailboats have the same light so they are able to legally power
at night without using their sails. Along with a 360degree allround
tricolor at the top of a mast OR a spread of three red, green, and
white navigation lights at deck level. Never both at the same time.
At deck level We have red/green sidelights as a bi-color in the pulpit
and/or at the cabin's aft corners - also never lit at the same time.
The pulpit combo light even at IP67 is vulnerable and exposed.
Redundant side lights seems prudent..
Sailboats use the term 'mast head light' for a 225degree navlight
found above deck level usually mounted on the mast. We could use
a white stern light up there, but it would not be appropriate. These
days the forward facing light is combined with a down facing white
spot light. It is not a navigation light. At night it lights up the
foredeck (and messes with your night vision). And legally would not
be on at the same time as the steaming lamp.
How to keep this straight? Simple.. Consider and spell it
'mast HEADLIGHT',
like your wheels. That would arrange the other spelling as MASTHEAD
light. No single light we have nav lights up there ljke the tri-color,
port - stbd - stern - allround white light called ANCHORlight - never
used when the vessel is moving. We do NOT have a legal navigation
masthead light. You
certainly can call the tricolor mast-top a single fixture (sometimes the
combo nav light that sometimes may include the allround white anchor
lamp.) But mast headlight is better reserved as navigation
nomenclature for a forward facing white lamp of a vessel UNDER POWER.
And that is why a mast headlight is not at the mast head (mast top).
There is a movement afloat to sail at night offshore with
RED OVER GREEN,
allround nav lights that pbryant is a proponent. He has posted here and
elaborated on a Cruising site how to wire and switch the system. Serious
cruisers are unanimous in NOT obeying the single tricolor on a dark hull
directive. If you will, they say it's at your peril. But it is the current rule..
If you insist, I suggest for our boats a 3NM tricolor..
I've now gone with MARINEBEAM 3.5" x 3" plastic IP67 navlights. At the
moment I'll go with the redundancy of having a red/green bicolor in the
pulpit and a 2nd set on the cabin-trunk sides where the originals were.
Creative mounting require4d. $89 ea. 2021.
I chatted with mb & asked him if they had a R.O.G. in the works.. Nope.
They will have to come up with something soon, there's $$$ to be made
there. imco, in a dark & stormy night it's preferable to be lit up like a truck.
Marinebeam wld be reasonable and do it right.
pbryant has a solution that makes sense. He has mounted two allround
greens about a meter down his mast on the opposite port & starboard
sides when lit up throw enuf green to look green all round -- and with
the single red allround on the mast-top passes for R.O.G. (Green has double
the lumens but the red is in the alpha spot.) His single 3 position toggle
switch solution exists here or on the Cruising site, he hasn't revealed whose
allrounds he used. At night we'd probably have a reef in the main -- sure
I would! [This toggle switch is intuitive. Will find & record it here.]
MOST IMPORTANT.. we in R.O.G. at the same time are allowed to have our
DECK LIGHTS ON. And the ability to indicate the vessel's length with pulpit
and stern lights seems prudent. Red over Green, with its unique separation,
is instantly recognizable by professionals as a sailboat under sail.
R.O.G. is for an offshore boat under sail at night. Personally, sailing r.o.g.
I wld have the pulpit bi-color on, the cabin mounted green and red off,
and stern light on. And the r.o.g. instantly registers with the lookout
size, type, direction, location and speed of the interloper. If lookout on the
other vessel isn't responding, I'd probably use a wildly agitated spotlight.
Or a flare!~!
Some time ago evidently I followed thru on this & lo found in my stash 3
allround HELLA LAMPS: two green, one red. Base is 3", stand-out about
3", which is a stretch for an apparent single lamp 3"+mast 3.5"+3". 2NM
- LED - CE - 9-33V. Found inside the blister-pac: IP67. $105.99 ea. 6/2018.
Take care..
#98
Technical / rudder discussions
Last post by ebb - November 16, 2021, 05:28:05 PMThis post might refer back to 487, and the subject has been written about
by ebb either here or in the gallery pages. That area, the HEEL of the KEEL
where the rudder shoe is dapped into the fiberglass is by design a problem.
There is a huge amount of weight and leverage concentrated here. No
amount of finesse seems to me to be possible to get an adequate lay-up
of polyester resin and matt-glass in this narrow, tight and difficult pocket.
This hull, needless to say the whole class of Ariel/Commander's, had to be
laminated as a single unit. It made the back third of the hull a challenge
do properly. Imagine how hard it would be if you had to lay-up the inside
of your garbage can with poly and matt, it'd be a mess.
When I finally got A338's ruddershoe off, found that the outer half, the end,
was broken chunks of plastic. No glass reinforcement, The shoe had been
held in place with a single pin (that had been crudely removed and replaced
with a small bolt that held a zinc against against the bronze shoe.. WHICH
WAS PITTED & CORRODED.
The boat had a homemade rectangularish rudder with a stainless shaft. Tried
to find out how stainless cld make bronze into an anode.. Did latter find a
more probable answer.
So, made an attempt to rebuild the naked end of the keel. There's little that
can be done. Here used the elegant cheat of using the ruddershoe to mold
the repair. Had to straighten the sides of the shoe that had been seriously
bent inward by later bolts used to keep the obviously slipping shoe in place.
There wasn't much the glass in my repair had to hold on to.
So, the long upward lag screws idea blinked ON. Desperation is a great
motivator. Hope it works this time, I've cheated alot. I wonder if The Pearson
Boys thought it through. Haven't added it up: there's an astonishing amount
of bronze weight concentrated on very end of our keel.
Imagine what it was like to lay-up the stern with the toxic fumes of MEK
and polyester resin kicking off.. they had to be inside the hull to work..
masks, fans, what did they have back then?
__________________________________________________________
Had a few conversations with Roger Winiarski, proprietor of BristolBronze.
He told me something I cldn't believe, but then whom else is as good as his
word? He said BristolBronze been Pearson's supplier of round bar and fittings.
OK, but then he said, the bronze was manganese bronze, a very strong alloy
that casts into the beautiful things like winches and other deck gear.
Like I say, Couldn't believe it..! He assured me it was so.
The rudder shaft in many saltwater A/C's gets corroded at the waterline inside
the rudder tube that passes thru the bustle. Well, Why?
ManganeseBronze (58%copper - 39%zinc - .8%manganese) is nothing more
than a high tensil BRASS. It has too much zinc in it for it to stay in alloy. In
salt water it turns into a battery and self destructs, corrodes. Copper alloys
are moderately resistant to dezincification at 15% zinc. SiliconBronze 96%copper,
2.5-6%silicon, plus a pinch of a bunch of other metals including manganese,
lead and zinc and will still be intact 1000 years in ocean water. No guarantee.
by ebb either here or in the gallery pages. That area, the HEEL of the KEEL
where the rudder shoe is dapped into the fiberglass is by design a problem.
There is a huge amount of weight and leverage concentrated here. No
amount of finesse seems to me to be possible to get an adequate lay-up
of polyester resin and matt-glass in this narrow, tight and difficult pocket.
This hull, needless to say the whole class of Ariel/Commander's, had to be
laminated as a single unit. It made the back third of the hull a challenge
do properly. Imagine how hard it would be if you had to lay-up the inside
of your garbage can with poly and matt, it'd be a mess.
When I finally got A338's ruddershoe off, found that the outer half, the end,
was broken chunks of plastic. No glass reinforcement, The shoe had been
held in place with a single pin (that had been crudely removed and replaced
with a small bolt that held a zinc against against the bronze shoe.. WHICH
WAS PITTED & CORRODED.
The boat had a homemade rectangularish rudder with a stainless shaft. Tried
to find out how stainless cld make bronze into an anode.. Did latter find a
more probable answer.
So, made an attempt to rebuild the naked end of the keel. There's little that
can be done. Here used the elegant cheat of using the ruddershoe to mold
the repair. Had to straighten the sides of the shoe that had been seriously
bent inward by later bolts used to keep the obviously slipping shoe in place.
There wasn't much the glass in my repair had to hold on to.
So, the long upward lag screws idea blinked ON. Desperation is a great
motivator. Hope it works this time, I've cheated alot. I wonder if The Pearson
Boys thought it through. Haven't added it up: there's an astonishing amount
of bronze weight concentrated on very end of our keel.
Imagine what it was like to lay-up the stern with the toxic fumes of MEK
and polyester resin kicking off.. they had to be inside the hull to work..
masks, fans, what did they have back then?
__________________________________________________________
Had a few conversations with Roger Winiarski, proprietor of BristolBronze.
He told me something I cldn't believe, but then whom else is as good as his
word? He said BristolBronze been Pearson's supplier of round bar and fittings.
OK, but then he said, the bronze was manganese bronze, a very strong alloy
that casts into the beautiful things like winches and other deck gear.
Like I say, Couldn't believe it..! He assured me it was so.
The rudder shaft in many saltwater A/C's gets corroded at the waterline inside
the rudder tube that passes thru the bustle. Well, Why?
ManganeseBronze (58%copper - 39%zinc - .8%manganese) is nothing more
than a high tensil BRASS. It has too much zinc in it for it to stay in alloy. In
salt water it turns into a battery and self destructs, corrodes. Copper alloys
are moderately resistant to dezincification at 15% zinc. SiliconBronze 96%copper,
2.5-6%silicon, plus a pinch of a bunch of other metals including manganese,
lead and zinc and will still be intact 1000 years in ocean water. No guarantee.
#99
Technical / rudder discussions
Last post by Bill - November 15, 2021, 05:21:28 PMTraffic has fallen off for the past ten years. Many members have moved on and the new owners of their yachts have not seen fit to join the board. And, they can easily search everything by just using Google. Except for Ebb, most of our more prolific posters have left the scene. Unfortunately, they never let us know why . . .
#100
Technical / rudder discussions
Last post by Hull376 - November 15, 2021, 03:58:38 PMEbb, thanks for the additional info you inserted in your initial reply above. You are a real reservoir of information on these antique plastic classics. The shoe I have should marry pretty well to the keel. Dimensionally, Fred Pomeranze did a great job making the mold back in 2004. I think several of us ordered them at the time. Here I am 17 years later finally slapping it on the boat!
Ebb, any thoughts why traffic on the site for new posts has fallen off? My theory is that we’ve covered just about every nook and cranny, bolt, mod, spar, through hole, etc and the internet visitors are just checking out the books from our library……
Ebb, any thoughts why traffic on the site for new posts has fallen off? My theory is that we’ve covered just about every nook and cranny, bolt, mod, spar, through hole, etc and the internet visitors are just checking out the books from our library……