Messages

More Power Tim!!

Like Theis said, when bored and weather is OK go for it. They are very easy sails to handle once you get to grip with the appearently 'to big a size' look :-)

When broad reaching they are great and do give an easy speed gain.

Alos like Theis said - just watch out if the wind gets up. If the wind does sneek up just run more downwind until you put it away. If you have a big breeze you can run very flat with most gennys which is handy on a longer passage.

I usually don't have to store for long periods but when I do I back the rigging screws off a few turns (about 4 on each) to take the really big part of the load off. I then tie all the shrods togeather to stop them banging around.

This takes the nasty tension off when the boat is not in it's usual configeration i.e. floating.

I don't know if it does a lot but it makes sense to me and makes me feel happy.

What about the Sikaflex range of stuff. They have some very very sticky things that may work.

Alain Hylas (Spade, SSCA forum) says you should never use chain unless you are in coral, anyway.

A very popular theory judging by the number of boats you see with no chain :confused:  :confused:  :confused:

Everyone to their own so I'm not knocking Alain but I think that theory just does not stack up in so many ways, sorry.

yDon't know yet what the difference is between the Wasi and the Buegel.

Wasi is the Company (a big German Stainless gear supplier) and Buegel is the anchor they make/sell.

Like a Lewmar CQR.

Nice research Commander and Amos. interesting to see them all lined up like that.

This has been a very interesting thread to follow.  

It is always better when one can walk away with new ideas, a better understanding and more knowledge.  

But, my question is...should I replace my Bruce anchor?  Is it foolish trust it's hold after I have set it, payed out enough scope for the depth and check it periodically to make sure we're not drifting?

How did people anchor out for all of these years without our newest designs?

               should I even sleep tonight

Sleep? Depends how the wife/ girlfriend feels

The Bruce and the other more known ones are not 'bad' anchors just things move on and improvements have been made.

I'm sure all will agree that if your anchor has worked well not given you any reason to be worried, why change. If it has been not-setting, letting go or just been a complete pain in the a**e then look at changing.

All the chat about anchors always seems to over look the effect of the rode behind it. You have a good rode and the anchor works better, have a crap rode and even top end anchors will struggle at times.

If I had a Bruce that has not done me wrong, a good rode behind it and I deployed them well, I'd sleep very well.

If a 1960 Morris Oxford (it's a car) gets you from A to B fine why buy a Ferarri? Sure the Ferarri will do it a hell of a lot better but the Oxford will still do it, with some encoragement. When the Oxford packs up look at the Ferarri.

Where EBB I miss him already

I do get the impression 'the EBB' is a dedicated bloke and won't give up without being totaly satisfied. That's not a bad thing really.

Looking at the whole video I would say the Sarca is not shown as it is not regarded as a serious compeditor. I think it is the 'other new gen anchor' on the chart thing. The Spade probably as it is not as widely known anchor down this way.

The whole video is an hour and a 1/2 so I suspect the lads just put in what they see as the known anchors which are regarded as serious compeditors down this way.

The video on the site could make one think dodgy stuff was afoot but after seeing the whole thing I'm happy to say all anchors were treated exactly the same and as far as 'tests' like this go it was on the straight and level. Yes it is a 'promotional' thing so most would expect a tad of 'padding' or 'truth by omission' which is common practice and quite understandable. As I've mentioned before I would regard the Rocna site as a lot more honest than many others even taking the 'promotional' thing into account.

That PBR (PS) test was so poorly done it does not rate any consideration. read the method and I think the word you will use is 'bizzare'.

The CQR and Claw (bruce knock-off) did not set well beceause thats what they do in real life anyway more than often, this is well known. It was a Bruce knock-off and I suspect more and more they are not as good as the real thing and I also suspect a real one would have done better.

craigsmith,
Just because you guys have decided that a spoonshaped anchor is going to work better than any other doesn't make it so.  You had your inspiration, you followed thru on it, and here you are in business.  There is no superior nature of a concave fluke - unless it is supported by testing.  And I'm saying here that all anchors we have mentioned here should be compared with each other in an all-out knock-down deep set fight - befor I  spend my bucks based on anybody's unsupported statements.

Just a quicky reply, G'day again Ebb, by the way.

From all I have seen, done with and heard from my customers the concaved is better than the older convexed shapes comfortably.
Good on ya for being a thinking boaty, you're a dying breed. Not to sure on some of your thoughts though  but some is still better than none.

That 'most anchors slowly increase their holding power over a 12 or 24 hours period' - is not relevant.  The subject is spoon shaped anchors.  My argument is that spoon shaped blades will take their bite, their set, and will not go deeper naturally because their shape AND THE PULL ON THE RODE will not let them do that.
I believe this statement is in part supported by the video you have on your internet site.  Because you do NOT show any pull on your anchor once it is set.  Right?

Its all about angles and pressure. If you keep pulling they will set deeper, bottom condidtions willing of course. This applies to most anchors to a point.
I've seen the raw video and can't agree with your last sentance though.

It seems possible that once a Rocna or a Spade or a Max or a Bruce take their set they might dig in more solidly - but by design they cannot dig in much deeper.  Because it is not in the nature of their design to do so.  My specific point here is unsupported by any testing.  BUT what testing we do have seems to indicated  that spoonshaped anchors in general have a problem staying set.  That is my impression from the tests I've read.

Sorry just wrong. I've done and read many tests and can't see where you get that from. Take a big spoon down the beach and have a play with it and you may see what Craig and them are talking about.

There is also from craigsmith here NO proof that a straightshaped Buegel blade does not set deeper and better.  There have been no side by sides and therefor you can't intimate your anchor is better.   Well, of course,
YOU CAN SAY IT, BUT SAYING IT DON'T PROVE A THING.

You're right on that bit to a point

And you can't just say that the Sarca convex blade will not do as well as a Rocna because it is somehow inferior to the spiffy concept shape of  Rocna.  NO PROOF.

Wrong wrong wrong. I have plenty of proof myself and have to fully disagree with you on that bit.

Along with other good attributes an ideal anchor should set quickly and once set not pull out or drag but set deeper and deeper still in nearly all bottoms if made necessary by the conditions at the samson post.  No excuses.

100% correct

You do have a point:  the endless repetition of unsupported statements and enthusiastic bs will influence some unwary to buy an anchor or not buy a competitor' anchor.  And who's to say that yours isn't the best when you do say that it is.

It is hard to be a passionate salesman and not come off looking a tad biais  

Yeah your right on those test, complete waste of news print. By the way they were done by Power Boat Reports and reprinted in PS, a sister mag thing I understand.

The Rocna tests were very long and the whole video would take forever to download so I suspect they just picked out what they regard as their serious compeditors. One thing I saw was some very strange behavour of a Bugel (a 25kg version), it did just not want to play the game and had surprisingly low peak load.

Another thing shown was the Sarca setting quick but had very low (and I'm being nice here) loads. It did only just hold 25-30% of what the 2 new generation anchors did. The Rocna boys they did seem to give the Sarca extra attention to try and get higher loads but couldn't get much. These loads were a surprise to them and myself. Mind you we have heard many stories about them sliding. It looks like due to the geometery of the Sarca it will only bury until the shank is flush with the seabed and then it stops. Unless you have a nice clean bottom to dive into I suspect it will never hold high loads as it just does not bury deep like others. Yes it does look very busy or ugly as most people say.

We have done many test pulls over the years and the results of ours and one or 2 others I have read mirror the Rocnas so I'm happy they didn't do any jiggery pockery

With all of this 'mines bigger than yours' going on we have designed a couple of 'shoot-out' tests. While not exactly real life, which is damn hard to replicate, they should give us a nice 'head to head' comparison on speed of set, who holds more and re-setting. One test is a knock out round robin thing head to head, should be fun and interesting. Watch this space. I'm about to get test 'suggestions' from any anchor makers watching this now I suspect.

We deal with all of the anchor mentioned on this thread plus others. This does have it's moments but anchors are a person specific item and we find we can talk about just about any anchor but the punter wants what they want. As a 'general rule' so far, some one wants a Spade they leave with one even though they do cost the most down this way. Sort of like a Ferrari owner I suppose, "thats what I want so thats what I'll have". Similar for the Rocna wanters and CQR (we use Manson plows ourselves, lot beter value for $$). The rest will listen and may change if we think it is a better option. Very strangly the Supreme does not have much traction at all, why we can't work out, even with the SHHP tag, maybe still a bit new.  

The 'fouling' of the Bruces and its knock-offs is well known. Having played with  many anchors I don't see that being as big an issue with the new ones as one might expect. One thing is for sure though, you will always have a little bit of the seabed when you bring them up , they do grab a big bit of it. That comment of yours about the mud sliding off the Supreme did seem a bit strange. While that would be handy on retreival what about when buryed? One is good and the other not. Whats your expanded thoughts on that bit?

Who looks the prettiest?. Personally I prefer softer rounded shapes (could just be horny boy thing ) so lean a tad more to Spade and Supreme over Rocna but anyone picking an anchor on looks alone needs their head read obviously. You seen a Stainless Spade...... better than sex !!!!... errr... nearly anyway

You are right when you say the Rocna looks a tad clunky, it sure is one very solid well built lump of steel and I would hate to think what condidtions would ever get close to doing it any damage. In the pure strength of construction stakes I would rate the Rocna as the up there with or above the best I've seen. Mind you when it's blowing its tits off who cares what it looks like. I have also never heard a fish complain about the look of any anchor

Bugels we don't see many of. There is a bloke making knock-offs and a few overseas boats but that's about it. We've heard mostly, but not all, good about them though.

XYZ's, ABC's, STD's and the rest we don't see many of either. More a US thing I think.

ERIC - coral, Oh what a joy to anchor in...not. It does have a habit of grabbing your chain which is not that bad I suppose as long as the anchor grabs if the chain slides thru. Ooze, soft muck and Danforth patterns do make good bed fellows. As much as some don't like them they do work well in some situations and do store in the bilge nicley. I'll have a big one tucked away on the next big boat (50ft Cat).

Anchor to chain connections - Ye ha! one of my favourites   . Sexy well made stainless swivel if 3 strand rope is in the rode or a bloody big shackle if it's not.

What ya reckon??

Nice chatting with you all by the way.

The Kiwi V's Roo thing does seem to have some baring on things but mostly coming from the Aussie side or The West Island as we call it. They have some sort of complex about us but it's all in good sprit. I do belive Anchor Right had some internal issues with their NZ people which would not have helped. Surprisingly the NZ and Aussie marine markets are very very differant especially seeing we are only a few hours apart. 40hours and 18 minutes by a fizz boat a week or two back, Sydney to Auckland harbour bridges, not a bad effort.

Generally we boat quite differantly. We tend to do a lot more 'coastal' type work due the the shape of the country and having plenty of places to go. In lots of Austraila there is long gaps between boltholes so they tend to do lots of inshore type boating.

Don't be fool by the Sarca site, they are a well oiled operation but small by world scale, the nature of most manufacturering down this way. They do make nice bow rollers even if they are a tad pricey. Mind you Aussies do want more pay then China so it is a bit understandable. The Sarca is not a 'bad' anchor just it has limitations which have to be kept in mind. It does set well but after it's set things could be better.

Re Certs; If you look closely all of the Sarca certificates are for the same single anchor. Don't want to be rude but The Marine Board of Victoria?? a small state outfit, hardly significant. M&I a private company with a tad of a dubious history. Lloyds watched the same test and chucked in a Cert as well. Hardly anything definitive and a bit I find a tad annoying. This can be quite misleading if you don't know about Certs and the like.

On SHHP the actual loads required are surprisingly small and would be achievable by most. It is more a complete 'quality control' process to make sure construction is done right and other things like that, not purely loads. A damn good tag to have anyway and does give some more assurance of construction and performance.

Why does Rocna (Spade, XYZ, Sarca (yet) and many others) not have Lloyds?   Purely the cost from what I gather, it's bloody huge. I did hear the Supreme spent around $30-40,000 odd getting it. Obviously most would struggle there. I get the impression the respective manufacturers would prefer thier products performance in real life to do the talking. I do like the Testimonial war they have going on. As you said they are more valuable than most other sales angles.

Having a very close association with anchors I can assure you these guys won't be retiring with a Rolls in the gargage

I've seen the raw Rocna video and I think they are 'being nice' to Sarca, shall we say .That video showed that they did pull each anchor exactly the same (be it good or bad) so the results are based on a even playing field. It's that old chestnut to pull test or not, how to test and so on. It will always be a tricky one. Would have been nice to have a Supreme in there as well but they weren't out then.

It's all quite an interesting subject (is that a sad thing to say? :eek: ) really and one of those that will be debated until the end of time, I suspect.

And of course all of this discussion has not got into the way you can dramatically affect your anchors performance by the rode behind it. Another story  

Sail safe

EBB - I've been watching this thread with interest and you have forced me to post. This is not meant as me 'having a go' at you but more about putting some corrected comments into the thread.

Reading this thread it is quite apparant you have absolutly no idea about Sarcas except for what Anchor Right has told you. I do believe you trashed the Rocna bloke as a marketer of his own product so he could not be taken seriously. Do you see where I'm going with this, I suspect you are far from silly and you do

I have actually spent quite a bit of time playing with Sarcas, Rocnas, Spades, Supreme and many more. It's my job to spec anchoring and mooring systems which I both enjoy and take seriously as lives could depend on what I say. I don't believe 'marketing speak', do my own testing, always ask everyone with a boat what they use and how they find it, ask the manufactures so many questions they are sick of me and always make my customers give me feedback. My comments and conclusions are based on a combination of these.

A few corrections to some of your posts;
You are correct in saying a Sarca is concaved BUT only if you turn it upside down  :eek:  They are a convexed plow type as you will see when you site one in person and as you mentioned in a earlier post.

Sarcas are OK in clean firm bottoms. In soft mud they have many issues as many anchors do.

The PB report tests (they were not done by PS) done recently were as useful as a chocolate fire screen (just found that saying and do quite like it ). Anyone making a decision based on them would be regarded as very brave or very gullible. Even the 'best choice' anchor has a web page saying this

Compearing the Sarca Roll bar to the Rocna or Supremes is like compearing a 3 door hatch to a SUV. Again when you see these anchors you will notice the very big differances. The Sarcas rollbar is very important to it's structural integrity but on the other 2 it is not. Rex has obviously not had a close look at those nasty Kiwi anchors either. I think this is confirmed when Rex said the R & S (rocna and supreme, I'm getting lazy) anchors have laminated flukes, they don't. The S does have a small plate on it's tip and thats it.

It is good to see Rex on here explaining his product even if there does appear to be more than one of him judging by the posts.

Anyone passionate about their product will feel a tad defensive to negitive comments (be they right or wrong). They will also make the most of what they can to make their product look better. From what I have seen said on this site and know for 'fact', I would say Rocna has been more honest than Sarca. One small example - Sarca say their anchor has NZ Maritime Authority approval, this is complete rubbish as the MSA do not approve things like this. What Sarca actually has is a OK from a privatly owned company (not a well respected one either) who does some marine work.

Sarca says they have sold over 1,000,000 anchors and I'm just going to pop into my dingy and row to the moon for a picnic with G W Bush.

Sarca also say they have taken the NZ market apart...simply wrong. They have a big presence, but far from dominate, in the small fizz boat market but it is very unusual to see one on a boat above 30ft.

NZ's biggest anchor maker has had to hire more staff to fill orders coming from Australia and keep up with NZ supply as well. Makes one wonder where the million anchors are if they are not in AUS or NZ.

The Sarca 'sliding release' thing was on a NZ made anchor many years before Sarcas appeared. It has also been used on others before as well. It is far from new.

A Sarca comment 'We don't flog the holding power features of SARCA'. Do you wonder why when it is a very important part of an anchor performance?

If this all sounds like a bit of a Sarca bash, it sort of is to a small degree, for 2 reasons. 1, Having played with many many anchors over the years I find myself unable to recommend a Sarca on anything but day fizz boats due to there physical size (very big) and low holding. 2, SARCA are masters of marketing (or someone there is) very similar to the way GW sold the war to the US people. Based ruffly on but not entirely truthful. I personally think this is a mongrel of a thing to do when lives are at stake.

Some of your 'special' comments I liked.

HEARSAY IS OFTEN THE WORST KIND OF INFORMATION YOU CAN GET.
And your comments are ?

Wager that the SARCA will get and hold in more bottoms than the ROCNA.
INCLUDING HARD SAND.
I'll put a tray of cold beers on that. But be aware I don't make bets I might lose  

What are your conclusions? I will shy away from the distinct plow shapes AND most spoon shaped blades as I get closer to getting the ground gear together for 338.
Could this be read as all product deserve to be called rubbish except for the one I chose because I know best??

Rocnas - Take me up on your wager and you will very quickly see what the differances are. Sure Rocna Craig is everywhere but look what he has done to promote his product with a advertising budget of next to 0 (guessing) so most would regard this as damn clever so don't knock him for that. Sure the Rocna is not 100% perfect but what out there is?. Is it an improvement to CQR's, Deltas and the other older anchor desings? I would personally argue.. Yes and by quite a bit. Is the Rocna very strongly built? Oh yes. Most importantly.. would I and my kids sleep on a boat anchored with a Rocna? From my experiance I would have to say a very confortable Yes to that as well. Do I know others who would? Yes quite a few.

Supremes - being so new we have only had limited playing and feed back so far. Results look OK to date bar one unhappy punter who could not get it to set. This does appear to be a quirky one so we can't take to much from it. It's still a tad early to tell for sure but I think she'll stand up OK. We look forward to your experiance with one. That was a serious comment by the way so please let us know.

Spades - no question there. I'd sleep very happy on those as well.

CQR - Delta. I'd sleep OK once I got them to set properly

In summery, please don't go off about subjects like this without sound first hand knowledge. Just think of the 1st time boater who may read the forum and get put on a bum track, it could prove very dangerous and no-one wants that.

Disclaimer (claimer or whatever it is) - I am not related to, being paid by, shagging the daughters/sisters of or getting any personal advantage by posting this from Rocna, Supreme, Spade, Lewmar or anyone else in any way. That is not to say I wouldn't past my bank details to any if they would like to make a donation or reject the ph number of at least one sister if offered
I do spec and sell anchoring and mooring gear including ALL of the anchors mentioned above. I do know and have talked to Rocna Craig, Supreme Steve, Spade Alain and Sarca Rex.