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Hi all,
 
Well, I have gone over to the dark side. A POWERBOAT? No, no, not that dark. But I have decided that before undertaking the refit on C-231, which I acquired as an interim vessel prior to bringing a 1964 Rhodes Reliant yawl back to life, I should keep an eye out for something more suitable for a family of 5. So I am looking at a Catalina 30 which I can get for next to nothin'.
 
Is it as pretty as an Alberg design. Heck no, but it makes a lot more sense for myself and 3 sons to cruise Puget Sound on. So I'm putting C-231 on the block. Offering her here first  in hopes of finding a quality home for her.
 
Your can check her out here:
http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?2075-Commander-231&daysprune=-1
 
She is c-231, in case the link does not work, search for the post above.
 
Currently in as acquired condition, sitting on a galvanized trailer pictured toward the end of the post and located on Bainbridge Island, across from Seattle. Been keeping her dry under new tarps since hauling.
 
Honest assessment of condition: quite good, but ready for a refit and cosmetic upgrade. Especially paint. Decks are SOLID, never had lifeline stanchions, a major source of water ingress, and though I don't care for silicone as bedding material, someone did a good job of getting it in there to seal things up during the boat's mid life in places like the mast base (which was a bear to remove as a result)
 
This one never had an inboard.
Sails are typical ok older sails, including several headsails.
All standing rigging which came with the boat appears to be original, or at least 30 years old, and though it was rigged when I purchased the boat, I have always intended to replace it simply due to age.
 
Price:
It came to me cheap, and I'm willing to let it go to a good home just as cheap, even though it is a sound boat, but with some needs.
 
Boat only without trailer or outboard: $1,800.00
With good running Suzuki DT-8 outboard: $2,000.00
With outboard and trailer: $3,000.00 (best deal, as the trailer could fetch $1500 in a hearbeat)
 
If purchased with trailer, I will deliver in Puget Sound area.
Title for both boat and trailer are in hand. Trailer tires new in late 2009. Have less than 100 miles on them. Trailer hydraulic brake controller (surge brakes) new in 2010, also seen almost no use.

I also did a powerboat trailer conversion. Good picks at the bottom of the thread here:
 
(sorry the link keeps abbreviating, but if you do a search for "commander 231" you should find a thread by that exact name. Trailer pics at bottom.
 
 
I used square tube and the adjustable tops from a set of brownell stands I had around. I welded the whole thing up with a rented mig welder (way nicer than plain arc welder) and then took the whole thing in to have it galvanized, which was not all that expensive. The entire assemblage of uprights and brackets comes off as two solid units and is simply bolted to the trailer. I did have to order a second crossmember for the trailer from the manufacturer (shorelander in this case). Working out the balance to get the tongue weight correct is critical. I calculated the pad locations as best as I could from the lines drawings. It worked, but I would prefer a heavy steel channel under the keel to spread the weight between both crossmembers. Right now its a 2 x 12 with wedges to even the load. The tubing I used was heavy, 2" square and 3/16" or 1/4" wall if I recall. The Brownell threaded shafts fit pretty nicely inside it. I found it easier to weld square joints than round ones. (Well easier to cut good joints I should say). Its only been on the road a couple times, but I pushed it up to 60 on the highway coming back from the travel lift the first time out. Felt just fine. That was with a brand new brake actuator/hitch. Its a darned heavey boat. You gotta have working brakes. Also, used trailer = new tires in my book. They are right up to their design limits, and tires of unknown age and strength is dangerous. And you can't tell my looking most of the time. And don't even think about a single axle set up would be my advice.
 
I got my trailer real cheap in exchange for hauling the power boat hulk that was on it to the dump in the transaction.

Those spreader bases look great. It will be really interesting to see the rig set up with what I consider to be the "proper" spreader angles. Also seems like it should be much more durable than the common castings which inspire little confidence.
 
Keep up to he good work.

You might try these guys out of Florida:
 

 
http://www.usedsails.com/
 
I think they are the outfit I used to make a self tending jib for my 470.
 
All their inventory is listed by dimensions, price, and condition.
 
There are other used sail operations online too, just google "used sails".
 
Your should be able to figure out your critical dimensions easily enough. Also need to think about the fastening system (slugs, etc.)

Sounds about right,
 
You seem to have a good understanding of what is involved and a realistic budget based on that, so - cool - should be a good project!
 
The big expensive hassle, as you have already figured out, is getting the standing rig up including all the associated bits. It might worth thinking about picking up an appropriate wire cutting tool for the 3/16" so you don't have to pull everything down to farm out the wire cutting. I agree with getting the extra wire lenght. Also keep in mind that there will be a bit of stretch in the intial rig tuning, so you will want to establish the length with the turnbuckles pretty well extend. I would think about 2/3 of the way extended, figuring that 1/3 of that will go away between the initial tensioning and parts wearing in to place. Just a guess, though, rigging only may have some online information to support that hunch.
 
The running rigging is pretty straightforward, just get enough extra length on all the lines.
 
For boats this size, and much larger too, I am a big fan of modern high-tech low-stretch line for halyards rather than the wire or wire/rope blend that these boats had originally. No real need to go with crazy high tech either. I have used New England Ropes "Stay-set-X", if it is still available, which is a parallel stranded dacron (rather than braided) in the core, and it is reasonable and durable. In a pinch I have used some old retired pieces to come-a-long a pickup out of a ditch. Good stuff, easy on the hands, just get a size that will fit through whatever sheaves the mast has, or blocks you provide if there are no sheaves.
 
Minimum running rigging list should look like this:
Main halyard
Jib halyard (unless roller furling, which varies by furler style)
Topping lift (supports the boom while raising sail, furling)
Outhaul on main sail
Main and jib sheets
 
To simplify, Stay-set-X for halyards, regular braided Stay-set for everything else.
 
There are alots of other bits and refinements, but that gets things going.
 
As to the hull, the following:
Check and/or replace all hose clamps on through hulls with ALL STAINLESS type clamps. If the sink still has a through hull drain, see what manner of connection it has to the through hull. Most of these boats don't have a proper seacock to close that in an emergency, and the sinks are pretty low on the waterline. If the boat were down more than 6 or 8 inches because swamping or something, water would come right up over the rim of the sink an "sink" the boat.
 
Check the mast support post for integrity at top and bottom to make sure there is a solid load path to the hull/ballast.
 
Check the bolts on the chainplates for corrosion damage. Perhaps pull a few to make sure.
 
I'm sure there is other stuff too, but those items are the standouts.
 
Looking forward to seeing a photo of her under sail this summer.....

Commander 93,
 
The background is helpful. Man, I don't want to seem like a downer, but getting her rigged and seaworthy is a bit daunting on a tight schedule and/or budget. Here are my 2 cents:
 
A sailboat rig looks simple enough standing on a dock, but actually getting one rigged when you don't already have the rig is a surprising bit of work even without the perfectionist digressions of our spreader angle discussion. Every bit of hardware needs to be figured out, selected, procured. You need to make a comprehensive checklist, and work it all out. I do not recall if you have sails or not, or if that is another challenge. Also not sure if the mast/boom you have is close enough to the typical ariel/commander to use second hand stuff that many of us may have cluttering up our garages.
 
Given a boat unrigged, with all the necessary gear that came off her just needing to go back on, it could be done in as little as a day or a weekend.
 
Having to figure it all out and make it fit and work, a good deal longer.
 
And then there is the expense.
 
The cheapest way by far to get into sailing is to pick up a workable but not too pretty or terribly well maintained but complete boat. One that can be used immediately with only critical upgrades is ideal, then fix up as needed.
 
#93 seems cheap at $800.00, but the cost of a proper rig and sails could run thousands more. If all all new, many many thousands. If second hand scrounged, maybe just 1 or 2. That said, I have made the mistake in my youth of using second hand standing rigging that looked "perfectly good" to replace some old stuff on my first "big" boat (30'), and had a turnbuckle break AT THE DOCK. Never again. My "new" commander #231 is still in the driveway waiting for me to give her a heavy going over, including all new standing rigging, since hers is several decades old and she was on a mooring that whole time, rocking and swaying.
 
I digress.
 
If you have a few thousand dollars to dedicate to this cause, (lets say 2 thousand at a minimum) and a LOT of free time -or- quite a few thousand dollars to farm out the work, by all means go for it. The commander is a good boat, should be capable of teaching you a lot of lessons without killing or bankrupting you.
 
If the above is NOT the case, I would strongly advise the following, if viable in your location: ditch the commander to a worthy candidate and find a good cheap used beachable racing/sailing dinghy. That is the best way to learn how to sail anyway, and you can usually find them pretty cheap.
 
And as I suppose many in this group will agree, there is no way to beat the pleasure per dollar that a SMALL sailboat provides.
 
I grew up sailing on a sunfish, and I STILL go out on one on Barnegat bay when I am there in the summer, and there is still no greater pleasure than smashing around in a chop on a 200 pound piece of fiberglass on a hot windy summer afternoon.
 
Not that boat work and rigging cannot be fun, but if I were in your shoes, I would focus on water time before yard time.
 
That said, I'm sure there are many here, myself included, who will be happy to help get you through the process with 93, if it continues to make sense.
 
I might start with these guys, though I have no actual experience with them yet, I am thinking about them for my rigging replacement. May be cheaper/faster/more useful than going local if what you say about the local situation is accurate. Worth checking out, anyway, they should be able to work up what you need from dimensions?
 
http://www.riggingonly.com/
 
Best of luck. Wish I were in a warm place like you!

I checked out your drawing. Looks about right, but I might suggest the following adjustments:
 
The socket tube is a bit thin on your drawing. Original is solid 3/16", but then again it is a fragile casting. Good quality extrusion might do with less.
 
It looks like you are indicating a 3/8" diameter hole through the socket and spreader to make a connection. The original does have a small pin to keep the spreader from falling out, but it is tiny. 1/8" is all. Some kind of tinky metal pin drifted in with friction if I recall. I would not be tempted to drill a big hole, since there should normally be quite a bit of pressure holding the spreader tube into the socket anyway. Its really just to help with mast stepping etc.
 
Double check your spreader tube and socket tube diameters. If somebody is welding it up, you should be able to find available sizes that nest nicely.
 
Another thing to consider in that selection is the availability of a fitting for the shroud end of the spreader. Original is a casting that sits inside the spreader and has a groove to receive the shroud and a couple holes for seizing wire. If you can find a readily available fitting online that fits a certain size tube, that would be a good guide.
 
And yes, the spreader base should fit well to the mast. If your mast has much curvature as the originals do, it will be necessary to accomodate that in the design or find a way to add something underneath, which I would discourage. Perhaps the base plate could be formed into the desired radius before attaching the socket tube, or ground out afterwards.
 
So much effort for one little part, to be sure, but I suppose we all hope to be able to get our cash back on these thought investments when the weather is stinky and are we are not frantic with fear of the rig coming down!
 
Or so we hope......

Firstly, here is a link to an old spreader socket failure discussion, complete with pictures to justify why the original pearson solution is somewhat flawed:
 
http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?452-Spreader-Socket-Broken
 
And here is a link to a viable replacement, which seems not to be the ideal angle, but is available and expedient, at $68.00 bucks a piece. Not being pre-drilled, you may be able to easily adapt it to your current mast holes. (original holes are half inch diameter)
 
http://www.drmarine.com/proddetail.asp?prod=P26%2D200
Used on many Pearson masts! 3"x6" Cast Aluminum

Ebb is right on all counts, and made it short and sweet too!
 
Commander 93, it seems like you are definately clear on the concept and the geometry. I agree there is no reason to compromise the mast by adding extra big holes, even though their impact that close the spreader would likely be minimal, they are still ugly holes.
 
The challenge you are facing is that your spreader height is a bit higher than standard (just measured mine at 14' mast base to spreader attachment centerline) and your mast is small bit shorter, but the real challenge is that the typical commander spreader does not have as much up angle as it really should, either by design or production. It works because the spreaders take it, but for no good reason.
 
In the older days of wood spars and spreaders it was impractical to expect the spreader to support bending loads, so they tend to be much closer to the ideal.
 
I will be making my new ones with equal angles too - why not?
 
Also, 5-7 degrees of lift, even more if necessary, seems fine to me. Expected, really.
 
Here is a picture of my boat in the water before I purchased her. The port spreader is up 2 degrees, the starboard is perpendicular to the mast. As you can see it is pretty darned hard to even notice it. 5, 7, even 10 degrees up would just look appropriate to my eye. Go look at some boats in the water with wooden masts and spreaders, I bet you will see what I am talking about.
 
 
 

 
 
Here is another web image of the ideal, and as you can see the upward angle is quite noticable, I would guess at least 7 degrees:
 
 

it came from here:
http://www.answers.com/topic/spreaders (some good text to support it)
 
I agree that extending the spreader length starts to interfere with the headsails, and you have to go awfully far to change the angle much.
 
Or to simplify, I suppose if the 2 degree original bases work, a 5 degree one should be better without the need to get TOO acurate.
 
Also, it is worth noting that the original spreader sockets, though cast and prone to failure eventually, are fairly hefty in proportion, and heavily through bolted across the mast, so they really can take a bit of bending load (for a while). If you were for some reason going with anything wimpier, the angles become more critical. The heavy bolting (one below, one above the spreader) is nice.
 
Look forward to hearing what you come up with for a spreader support, and seeing some pictures of whatever angle you decide on.

I do see what you mean on the photo of Mephisto Cat, the spreaders do seem perpendicular to the mast now that I am focusing on it.
 
I do wonder, though, if Alberg really intended them to be truly horizontal. I don't have the drawings to verify, but I would have thought one of his ilk would not have stood for such heresy, even from a paying client. Perhaps there was a bit of Pearson-eering going on, along the lines of the keel voids.
 
Just to verify, I did schlep up to my shed where my spreader bracket is sitting on a shelf (man, I gotta clean up that shed) and my original cast aluminum bracket is in fact made with a 2 degree pitch upward. (43 degrees above, 47 degrees below) However, my old fabricated replacement is horizontal. I even seem to recall the previous owner commenting on how that one had a bit of a "droop", which he felt it should not.
 
I suspect that even the 2 degree angle is less than it should be, but I have not done the math (geometry?) on it to verify.
 
When I get around to making new ones, I will get that right.
 
Also, though the spreader itself seems to be bullet proof oversized extrusion, the brackets take the real bending load, and there have been many failures of that part on these boats, suggesting that the angles should be revised for the future.
I'm not normally such a perfectionist, but when it comes to big heavy things over my head (and my crew's heads) I like to be fussy. Besides its all part of sailing lore, no?

Seeing as how this thread seems to have become, in part, a reading list, I offer up the following:
 
The Water In Between by Kevin Patterson.
 
I have read most of the cruising narratives out there in my day, especially the "classics", by Miles Smeeton, John Guzzwell, and so on.
 
Found The Water In Between in a used bookstore, never heard of it, and thought "ah, what the hell". Turns out to be one of my favorite vicarious cruising reads. Answers with some credibility what it would have been like to have both the resources and lack of commitments in one's late 20's or therabouts to have actually gone cruising on the Pacific. Especially as I would have wanted to do it, with minimal experience and vague expectations.
 
What I really like about it though, is how well written it is. I really found myself appreciating Mr Patterson's perspective and self-depricating honesty and self curiosity.
 
Since this seems to be going down as the coolest spring in recorded history in the northwest, the Pacific cruising fantasy seems to be coming on strong.
 
A local weather blog had the following image to remind its readers of the crappy weather:
 
Here is the book and amazon link:
http://www.amazon.com/Water-Between-Journey-Sea/dp/0385498845#_

The way the angles are the same is by having the spreaders point upwards until they are the same.
 
Just think of the spreaders as the arms of a christian reaching upward and saying "praise the lord" or something along those lines. If the arms are pointing DOWN, then the praise is going in the direction of the other place.....and we don't want THAT.

Bingo, this is what I was looking for.
 
The associated text from the image:

FIG. 8-1 I - Spreaders should not be "cocked" or canted from each other. They should be exactly opposite each other to counteract equally the forces imparted to them. When spreaders are raked, ideally Angle "A" should be equal to Angle "B", while Angle "C" and Angle "D" must be equal.

and the source:
http://www.glen-l.com/free-book/rigging-small-sailboats-8.html

Also, just noticed the above picture of Mephisto Cat. Love the Cat, but the starboard spreader is doing exactly what I was talking about in my reply, being almost horizontal. The spreaders are very strong on these boats, and the brackets are stiffer than they need to be. On some sailboats they actually have a pivot at the mast to allow the angle to adjust, but the A/C brackets angles are fixed. That is what is keeping the Mephisto Cat's rig up, but I THINK those spreaders should be pointing up several degrees more.
 
I will try to find a picture to save me the next thousand words. I know I have seen a diagram somewhere.

It sounds from the angles you are describing that perhaps you are measuring the angle between the spreader and the mast above and below the spreader. Sorry in advance if this is the wrong assumption, but those angles are pretty divergent. The angle that is supposed to be the same above and below the spreader is the angle between the spreader and the shroud.
 
The intent is to prevent a reaction force that attempts to push the spreader up or down, since the firmness of the connection between shroud and spreader tip is tenuous at best. It also prevents putting the spreader under bending strain, when it should be loaded only in compression. I think the angle of the spreader bracket is really only a guide to get things set up.
 
Example: if the spreader is set dead horizontal, the smaller angle between shroud and spreader above the spreader tends to push the spreader down. If it slips too far, the shroud goes slack with possibly disastrous results.
 
So lay out the geometry bases on a scale drawing or mathematical calculations taking into consideration the width at the base, height of the mast, length of the spreader and height of the spreader. For those fixed pieces of information the variable will be the angle of the spreader to the mast, which is what it is, and will NOT be the same above and below the spreader. Of course any of the above bits of data can be varied to change the outcome, but the primary ones you COULD change if you already have the boat and mast (which you do) are the length of the spreader, height of the spreaders from deck, and spreader angle.
 
I gather your mast is slightly different than original in at least one or 2 of above (length, width of mast section, height of spreader mount), but if it is any help, I have my rig down on various parts of my property, so I could give you the dimesions of the above if needed (such as spreader length or attachment height).
 
I still have one of my original spreader brackets (cracked) and a replacement that was made from non or cheap stainless about 25 or 30 years ago. Very heavy, but caused some corrosion on the mast underneath. I would like to have some new ones welded up out of heavy aluminum of the same type as the mast, and perhaps annodized, though I may make due with a set of the available aftermarket cast ones which I found online somewhere.
 
The spreader are just heavy round aluminum tubes Suprisingly thick walls, which turned out to be good, since one of the metal halyards has been rubbing through it for may years prior to my getting hold of her. If it had been as thin as it could have been, it surely would have worn right through.
 
As a non-sequitor of sorts, I exprience my first dismasting on a sailboat last year, on my brother in law's wooden catboat. It was an unstayed wooden mast of several decades vintage, glued up, but punky at the core. Very dramatic, but nobody was injured. Luckily no kids on board at the time, just 3 able and resourceful friends. We managed to retrieve it in tow to Cuttyhunk island, where it was quickly adopted by a local fisherman as a flagpole. We just wanted to avoid creating a hazard to navigation. Last time I was on the boat it was sporting a very stout metal mast, which I appreciated when reefing the big gaff sail.
 
And I am not really an expert, so if any other members of the group have a differing opinion, please advise.....
 
-Frank