Messages

Christopher,

I am pretty sure the Ensign I bought came from the Milwaukee fleet. It came with a bunch of sails from 1972 with references on the sail bags to Milwaukee. At some point in the past it was named Misty and right now it is named Harem with lovely self-adhesive black-on-gold mailbox letters on the transom. Needless to say the name will be changed again despite the potential for ill omens and bad outcomes, otherwise I'll never get my wife and daughters aboard. I'd be too embarrassed to sail it in daylight in any case. (The funny thing is, my friend kept sheep in the field where the boat is now, and the ewes would always congregate under the hull for shade in the summer. The name Harem is written on the cradle and for the longest time I thought it was my friend's idea of a joke...:rolleyes:) Anyway, I'll post photos and rants about this or that aspect of the project on my boats website -- this URL ought to be stable. Thanks for the information about the Center down there, I'll have to look them up. Who knows, maybe I can pick up a used set of sails when the time comes.

Dennis

Christopher,

First, let me say right from the get-go I am by no means an expert or even an amateur at this fiberglass boat thing. But, yes, tapping with the handle of a screwdriver right around some of the stanchions I thought I heard the "thunk" instead of the "ring." It seemed pretty localized, and not particularly widespread. Overall, the decks seem to be in pretty good shape, at least in comparison to the Ensign where it seems like I'll be replacing real acreage. The paint was chalky but I suppose this is to be expected. And, of course, I did not ultimately have the Ariel surveyed, so I have no professional assessment to back me up. There was also some crazing of the gel coat in the cockpit area, for what it is worth (the forward part of it -- is the correct term the bridge deck?).

I think the consensus of the others chiming in here is accurate -- Nordlyset is a solid example of an Ariel with some of the well-known aging characteristics of the design. As I noted above, it is more the money involved and the physical size of the boat that is keeping me from jumping in with both feet. I hope the Ensign will keep me from kicking myself in ten years or so for not getting this boat while it was available. Time will tell...

Dennis

Christopher,

Here is another photo from the starboard side. I am pretty sure it is the keel void issue -- there wasn't any trail of oil that I could follow (at least externally). If you look at the broker photos taken in August 2008 you can see areas of dampness on the floor that look like they are coming from voids.



The sailing it home option seems like a nice one -- I'd've had to portage her around all the non-operational locks on the Fox River between Green Bay and Lake Winnebago. :rolleyes: Good luck.

Dennis

Hello everyone,

It hasn't been an easy decision by any means, but in just the last couple weeks I have decided to not buy the Ariel. I think the consensus here is that the boat has a set of well known problems that can be fixed -- and having delved into the archives pretty deeply over the last months I can say there is definitely good information on how to fix all of them on this site. The association site and everybody who contributes to it fall on the "plus" side of the equation that helps you decide whether or not to take on a project like that.

The brief details that tipped my decision into the negative go like this: I got two quotes for moving the boat to my house where I could work on it before relaunching, both of which were north of a kilobuck after taxes and whatnot. Combined with a likely purchase price in the 3-5 kilobuck range, this started to run into what I consider serious money before I did "thing one" to it. Also, the draft of 3'8" is probably too much for the 3'-4' "thin water" available at the affordable public moorings nearby -- I simply can't afford a slip (at least not until we prove to ourselves as a family unit that this kind of boating is something we want to do enough to justify that). Sad as it may be, those were the biggest reasons and they boil down to the usual damn money money money reason.

On the plus side, I did just buy the Pearson Ensign I mentioned in an earlier post for an affordable entry price of $250, so I will still be with you all in Alberg-designed Pearson Family spirit. A friend will help me move that to my house in the next week or so where I can begin to tackle its rather lengthy list of ills (cracked toe rail, soft decks, rotted mahogany coamings, probably needs an all new interior in the cuddy, etc). Much smaller boat by volume and draft and probably more my "speed" right now.



Oh, and there is also my father-in-law's Thompson runabout we got down last weekend from the garage rafters it had been hanging from for the last 30 years. Needs some keel attention and new paint and varnish at the least.



I'm going to keep lurking here for sure -- perhaps I will convince myself that a side-by-side Pearson Ariel and Pearson Ensign dual restoration is the way to go. By the way, Marcelo, I will be flying down to New Orleans over the holidays to visit my brother -- maybe I could try to bring Nordlyset along for you as checked baggage... 50 pound limit, what 50 pound limit?

Dennis

Thanks again, everyone, for the feedback and encouragement. Thanks Bill for the markup on the photo -- I never would have come up with that explanation in a million years. Tony, please say hi to Northern MN for me -- I grew up in Saint Cloud and dream of retiring to the north woods someday so I can experience some real winters again. Ebb, I have indeed spent some quality time in the last months on those compression beam posts scattered in various threads here. c_amos, I will have to read some more about the tabbing -- "rough" I can live with, but doesn't this look more like "it ain't connected anymore?" Curable, I am sure given the operations I have seen some of you have done.



We spent some time looking through some of the gallery pages last night, and we are that much closer to "okay, let's do it." Besides, the girls really do want a boat with a "basement" as the youngest one puts it. At this point, my plan would be to bring the boat home since working at either of the two local yards I could store the boat at is either extremely inconvenient or verboten. This presents its own little set of challenges since my driveway is only 9' wide and I would want to tuck it into a part of my driveway between the house and garage that is a little less than 30' long. Gotta call the boat moving guy to check on the width and maneuverability of his rig and get the manual for those cradle plans. In the mean time, I'll try to figure out what we should offer and whether to get it surveyed if we get that far. Thanks again.

Dennis

mbd & ebb,

Thanks. It get's used, I promise, and no longer looks like those photos from launching day. I have been accused of building floating furniture, but at least it gets sat in. That handsome devil who looks like he knows what he is doing holding the boom, by the way, is friend Brad, not yours truly. He convinced me to do the bright interior on that boat -- I still consider him a friend but all subsequent boats shall have nice workboat style painted interiors.

Okay, back from Sister Bay after an hour's visit with Nordlyset. Brief analysis: I've got some things to think about. In person, it's a little more "tired" than the original photos led me to believe. I think a lot of people have looked at it over the last couple years judging from all the footprints on deck and broker comments. Pretty sure there are some soft spots around stanchion bases, fittings, and the mast step. Here are some photos I took -- the contrast and saturation are bad due to poor lighting.

Mast support beam deflection I assume? Tabbing pulling away from bulkhead? This is widespread throughout the boat.


The mast step itself. Haven't read widely enough to know if this is original.


A backing plate for one of the stanchions. None wiggle on deck too badly. Again, not sure if it is original equipment.


Keel void is *still* dripping -- I think it has been out of the water at least two years. That was some icky goo pooled on the floor there.


Plug plate things. They can be removed from within the lazarette with enough time and gumption -- kind of buried beneath some ply that must act as platform for gas cans.


I think the rudder needs some help -- looks like it may have split at some point and been repaired. There didn't seem to be any play in the shaft. The tiller is pretty loose, but that's just the matter of a bolt I suppose.


By the way bill@ariel231, that cowl vent on the bow is a plastic replacement.

Dennis

Rico & ebb,

Thanks for the ongoing encouragement and ideas. I have a recommendation from a friend for a well-respected surveyor who is indeed independent of the broker in this case. I've got an appointment to take a look on Saturday morning, so we'll see how things go.

The yacht is good.  Are you good enough for it?  :confused:

Bill,

I am not sure how to take that statement -- is it a standard challenge to all boat owners (or would-be owners) or something more individually directed? I like high quality, old things -- houses, boats, tools... cars not so much -- and wouldn't be thinking about buying this boat unless I was committed to taking care of it. It really makes me sad to watch this Ensign I have mentioned rotting away outdoors. (Both these boats are my age, so maybe there is something psychological going on here.:rolleyes:) It was you who filled in some history on Nordlyset back a few months in another thread -- it is evident that it has been well taken care of over the years and it gives me some much needed confidence in this decision. Thank you for sharing the information. If I buy it I am going to do my best to continue taking good care of it. I guess I'll leave it at that.

Dennis

bill,

I don't know if it is original, but here is a better shot to help you decide (if I have understood correctly the boat part to which you refer :rolleyes:).



To my eye, it is sort of clunky and I'd be inclined to make it go away...

edited to add: nope, not what you were referring to, right? waaay up there on the bow is another, more modest vent of appropriate proportions

c_amos,

Thanks -- it does look like it might pop in and out, doesn't it? And thank you *very* much for that sailfar.net link you posted earlier. I'm reading through the suggestions on that page right now. Good info there.

Dennis

mbd,

Yeah, I have been dancing around the "reveal" part because I don't want anybody swooping in and getting her before me. It really isn't a secret -- the boat has come up in conversation here before back when I started asking questions earlier this summer. It's A-354 Nordlyset (Norwegian for Northern Lights, I believe) up in Sister Bay, WI. On the surface it sure looks to be in "sail away" condition. It's been for sale for well over a year now (inside storage) and there has been a recent reduction in asking price that makes it quite competitive with what I think I would spend fixing up that Ensign I mentioned. Here she is (full listing is on YachtWorld):







I think the sails are older -- the original ad mentioned early 90s but quickly omitted that information. Not necessarily bad depending on how much they've been used. Much looks original and complete which is a big plus for me, the potential novice "big" boat owner. Something funky with the hull where the outboard passes through -- an historical modification, evidently. Not a lot "extra" but we wouldn't be cruising more than an overnight on the big lake we live a quarter mile from (Lake Winnebago -- big mud puddle, 250 square miles of maximum 22' deep water). Now, be nice and give a guy a chance to get his act together, get up there, and make an offer.

Dennis

Thanks, everybody, for the responses. I didn't know about Don Casey's "Inspecting the Aging Sailboat" -- I've got a copy of his book "This Old Boat" out from the library because I have also been considering a decrepit Ensign that needs an absolute ton of work (the tap test reveals more saturated deck core than not :eek:). I am hoping that by spending more up front on this particular Ariel I would end up ahead in the game. But the 3'8" draft is right at the upper limit of the available water at the public mooring area I intend to keep it, so the Ensign at 3'0" would be better in that respect, but the bottom is nice soft mud at least a foot deep. And, so I go, round and round...

I hope I haven't given the impression I am too cheap to buy the manual -- I am supposed to go look at this thing tomorrow if the broker ever calls back, and I wouldn't have time to get it and absorb it. It's a two hour drive one way to take a look, so a lot of back and forth isn't going to happen. After a lot of hemming and hawing, I am pretty much "there" as far as an Ariel is concerned -- this site is an excellent extended advertisement and an excellent resource as I have discovered in my months of lurking. Very convincing. Buying the manual will be my first bit of extra equipment for the boat, I promise.

I will weigh the pros and cons of a survey after I have taken a look at it myself. If my figures are right, a survey would work out to a bit less than 10% of the purchase price, and that might be "recoverable" as Commander 147 points out. I'll hem and haw about that for a while, too, I am sure. I'm not the world's most decisive person for sure. I'll keep you all posted as things progress. Thanks again, you have given me lots of good stuff to start with.

Dennis

Hello,
If all goes according to plan, in a few days I am going to take a look at an Ariel for sale, and I'd like to go into that admittedly unprofessional inspection with a list of things to be on the lookout for. I have built some wooden kayaks and small boats of my own, but the whole big-fiberglass-boat thing is brand new to me (and, yes, 25'7" and 5200 lbs or so is plenty big to me:)). From the main web page of this site I am aware of the strong back, back stay chainplate, and rudder shaft issues. Are there other important known Ariel-specific issues I should be aware of? I know I should check the deck around stanchions and chainplates for soft spots, big ol' cracks in the hull, etc. If I am satisfied myself and if my offer is accepted (and if I can get my intended crew to agree to the purchase :rolleyes:) I will probably get it professionally surveyed, too, but I'd like to be as fully informed as I can be ahead of time. I tried searching the forum, but didn't find any sort of list -- should I join you all in the ranks of happy Ariel owners I will certainly buy the maintenance manual. In the mean time, I would appreciate any and all heads ups you care to share. Thanks a lot.
Dennis

Tony and Bill,

Oh yes, I know used boats are a much more cost effective way of getting into sailing than new. I have moonlighted (moonlit?) for a friend who runs a boat building and repair company and one of his favorite jokes is "Q: How do you make a million bucks in boats? A: Start with two." Heck, I spent almost $3000 and 675 hours building and outfitting this thing:



So I have no real problem with the $7000-ish for a nicely kept Ariel or Commander because there is excellent value there. I just want to make sure the ongoing costs (storage, mooring, etc) are justified by how much we use it. Judging by how quickly the summer calendar is being filled with frivolous non boat-related activities, I think the answer is becoming evident. So, can I single-hand an Ariel or Commander with sufficient experience?

Dennis

Mike,

Yes, I certainly have, and they are both quite tempting. There's also the one just up the road from me in Sister Bay, WI listed on Yachtworld.

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1967/Pearson-Ariel-1935862/Sister-Bay/WI/United-States

I'm "there" as far as getting into sailing a bigger boat, but I'd like to get certain somebodies (a.k.a. my family) on board with the idea. I don't want to invest time, money, and energy (all limited quantities) and have it sit on a mooring all the time and never get taken out. Our summer lives are so dang busy the way it is. Thanks for pointing the listings out to me again, though.

Dennis

Mike & ebb,

Thanks for the feedback. I have to research the handicap number more to figure out its meaning (I recall a thread in another part of this forum where I can go for a start). I don't have any plans to race, but the number should tell me something about relative performance I suppose.

Let me reassure you I am right there with all of you on the pleasing, classic looks of the Ariels and Commanders. I hope you'll pardon the discussion of a non-Alberg design here, I am just trying to get an education about the relative merits of various designs. Given the obvious pleasure all of you get from your Ariels and Commanders and your willingness to work hard to get them/keep them in fine shape, its evident to me the design is a very good one. So I trust your opinions as I try to learn more. The quest continues. Thanks again.

Dennis

Thanks for the background. I thought the $1500 asking price seemed high -- like the guy was just trying to get the money he paid for the trailer back out of the deal.

Dennis