Ariel & Commander Owners

I just acquired a 1965 outboard model Pearson Ariel. After spending a couple of weeks getting to know the boat, taking inventory, and doing some interior rehabilitation and work on the running rigging, I am preparing tackle the rudder and motor issues. I would greatly appreciate any advice from members of this forum or others who happen along. My e-mail address is scottg@solopublications.com

1. The rudder issue: I did not have the opportunity to haul the boat before I purchased it. Although highly desireable, this was just not possible. I did however hire a surveyor tp conduct an in water assessment. He will finish the survey when we haul. From the surveyor's (in water) assessment, it is likely that there are problems at the top and bottom of the rudder, so I assume that the rudder bearing (top) nd shoe (bottom)need work and or replacement.  I have joined the Ariel Association, and purchased and read the operating and maintenance manual, so I am now somewhat familiar with the rudder design and parts.

Since I am aware of another boat at this same dock that recently had rudder shaft electrolysis problems, shaft electrolysis is also a possibility. I don't think that this boat has been hauled in some time, and I want to do all that is necessary in a single haul-out when I haul the boat later this month. That means ordering parts or having them made in advance if possible. Has anyone out there recently completed a rudder rehabiliation project on a Pearson Ariel? I am interested in knowing what to expect, where to order parts, or to whom I might go to to have them fabricated, and whether the actual condition of the rudder might be determined in advance of haul-out by a diver at least to some degree.

2. Motor issues: The outboard well on this boat has been enlarged to accomodate a 7.5 hp Honda that is likely near the end of it's useful life. The motor is not currently on the boat. I have lifting limitations due to a back injury. I am looking for two pieces of advice. I am sailing in Monterey Bay and in the open ocean. I have three questions.

a. What size motor is the minimum necessary to power this boat into and out of a harbor, and

b. What size is the minimum to power the boat into the wind on a flat day or into a swell on a windy day. From the recent post on this site it appears that a 6 hp 2 cycle motor might suffice in this regard.

3. I have read in the ops and maint manual of the Gauhauer lifting davit installation. Has anyone out there actually seen this lifting davit in action, or has anyone used similar (forespar or other)or dissimilar devices to lift the outboard from  the well and from the well to dock?

Again I will be grateful for any responses I receive.

Regards,

Scott

1) Why are rudder problems suspected? Does it just feel a little sloppy? Is the tiller bolted on tight? Are the O rings OK?

2) What's wrong with the Honda?

I think the purpose of the engine lifting mechanism is to lift the engine out of the well after each sail so that it does not stay in the water all the time. While this may be the preferred method, I can't imagine doing it. I'm sure most people just leave it in the water. My 10 year old 8hp Yamaha seems quite happy that way.

If you only install/remove the engine once a year,  a friend or the boatyard can do it for you.

As far as the rudder goes, I wouldn't get into trying to have parts fabricated until you're quite sure there is a real problem.

Not trying to curb your enthusiasm, just trying to save you alot of money.

Several times I thought my boat had problems that needed major repair or improvement, when it turned out everything was fine or just needed a little fix.

Now I tend to spend alot of time thinking about a project before I actually do it. Some people have the nerve to call this procrastination.

:B>

Scott, I agree with Pete on thinking out the issues and making sure the work needs to be done. These are stout little yachts and often don't need as much work as you might think. That being said I will offer you a couple insights from my experience. As a long time tenant of SC Harbor I can say with a great deal of confidence that a 6 hp long shaft is the ideal size motor for the Monterey Bay. As far as leaving it in the water I do disagree with Pete on that. Between the salt water and being in a hot harbor a motor left in the water will not last one year. There is a gentleman in SF (Gene Roberts) that has the Gauhauer lifting davit and he has all positive things to say about it. I also know of others that have rigged a small block and tackle lifting system that they hook on to the back stay that works well also.  I can give you more info on that if you want it.

Three years ago I did a rudder shaft replacement job on Pathfinder. I tied this together with a regular bottom maintenance job. I did not need to touch the rudder shoe though. What I ended up doing is hauled the boat and removed the rudder. I had the metal shop at Svens in Alameda make up the new half shaft at a cost of appx $250 and about a four day wait. In the meantime I got to work on doing the bottom and stripping the rudder. The rudder work was done at home.

After getting the new shaft and mounting it on the rudder I chose to fiberglass the rudder. I worked with the guys at the glass shop on Capitola Road and 7th ave. They were very helpful in talking me through the whole project and getting me the materials that best fit the job. My cost for this was less than $100 and a lot of time sanding.

The end result was all the work done and the boat back in the water in two weeks time. You might be able to save a little time if you could have someone remove the rudder while the boat is still in the water. Not the easiest thing to do but an experienced diver can do it.

I have done both a re-power and a rudder repair.  I chose a 9.9hp 2-stroke.  I leave mine in the water.  I sail on the Chesapeake and hve not had too much problems with motor deterioration in the past, but I did just replace a 1993 motor with a brand new one (not as a result of corrosion).  If 8-10 years of life is all I can get out of an outboard that is left in the well, it is still worth it to me to avoid having to pull the motor up every time I sail, besides I have remote throttle and start cable hooked up and don't want to connect/disconnect them every time I go out.

I was surprised at the hefty biece of bronze that comprised the rudder shaft.  When I first bought the boat there was some play in the rudder that I attributed to shaft deterioration, but I realized that this was not the cause when I took my rudder off.  I did have some loosening of the rudder boards, and I solved this with filler and glass (directly over the teak rudder boards)  The looseness that I spoke of was caused by the tiller end fitting and a larger than necessary clearence around the rudder post head.  I was able to have the fitting pressed, which gave it a snug feel, but has also introduced some stress ( I've since noticed a tiny crack begining to form in this piece, and will probably need to get myself a new one in the near future)

I also recomend that you don't go buying the shaft until you know that you need it.

What do you do with the engine after you lift it up?

Leave it hanging there as an invitation to criminal elements?

Carry it off the boat to your car and take it home?

Carry it down into the cabin?

I suppose the lift could swing over the cockpit locker and you could lower it into there. But, the prop would surely ding something eventually.

If you do buy a new engine, keep in mind that some brands will not fit into the motor well. You definitely want to make sure the engine can swivel to make docking easier. Some types of engines will not fit because of their throttle arm configuration.

The throttle arm is removed if you have a remote control throttle/shift mechanism. I second the vote for that. It's a real neat feature.

Unfortunately, during a recent wild party on my boat, the shift arm on the remote control got broke off. But, that's another story altogether.

The vast majority of the boats that I have seen in the SF area do one of two things with the motor. It is either stowed in the lazarette or placed below decks. Those of us that race will remove the motor and stow it below directly under the mast.

I have to admit that the motor seems to be getting bigger and heavier every year.

Thank you to commanderpete, Ed Eskers, and bkeegel2 for your thoughtful responses to my questions.

Regarding the motor. It is helpful to know that a six horsepower long shaft will power another Ariel around Monterey Bay. I am not yet sure that I need to buy a new motor. The Honda 7.5 is about to head for the shop for an inspection and overhaul, but I wanted to know the range of options and alternatives before I authorize what could be a major overhaul. The repair folks tell me there is some evident corrosion damage. Frankly as a result of my lifting limitation, I want the lightest weight motor that will safely power this boat.

My previous small boat sailing experience has always presented me with an easily liftable transom mounted outboard. Although leaving the motor in the water is certainly a possibility, I have not considered it seriously in the past because of the strong recommendations against doing so by the manufacturers. On my last boat, I raised and lowered the transom-mounted motor every time I sailed. A padlock and chain was sufficient to discourage any would be motor pirates.

The Gauhauer lifting davit looks interesting to me, and the price of the unit at $200 seems reasonable given the fact that it can be used to move the motor from the dock to the well, and from the well to the cockpit, and I can't do either one by myself. Since the Association Maintenance Manual has documented Gene Roberts' installation of this lift in a Pearson Ariel, we know that they can be adapted for use in an Ariel. I was merely hoping that someone else out there had actually used one and might offer some advice in this regard. The information in the Association Maintenance and Operating Manual is very helpful and easy to understand. I have written to Gauhauer, but have not yet received a response.

Regarding the rudder issues, I have no idea at this point what is wrong with the rudder if anything. I feel a clunk when I move the rudder from side to side, and I do not have the expertise to know what that means. Frankly I wasn't too worried about it, until I spoke with the prior owners. My surveyor (in water only to-date) told me that from the feel of the rudder, he suspects that there is a problem at both the top and bottom of the shaft. The prior owners have more or less advised me against taking the boat out in the ocean with the current condition of the rudder, but I have no way of evaluating what that means since they did not define that condition.  I don't think that this boat has been hauled for some time, so it is likely that no one will know the condition of the rudder until haulout.

I can't haul the boat until I get the existing motor or a new motor back on the boat, since I have to duck under a bridge with my tabernacled mast lowered to get to the yard. My desire is to haul once and not twice if possible. I read up on the rudder design in the Association Maintenance and Operating Manual, and noted that no manufacturers of replacement parts are listed for the rudder bearing, shoe or shaft. It is very good to know that Svendsen's yard can make up a half shaft (I assume that was the top half for Pathfinder) if necessary. My desire is to locate suppliers prior to hauling rather than spend my lay days running about, so that reference is very helpful.

I will probably rehabilitate the existing engine, drop it in the well, add a removable Gauhauer lifting davit, haul the boat, and take a good look at the rudder. It is helpful to see what other have experienced before I go to the yard for the first time. Overall I really like my new Ariel. I have spent a bit of time working below and on the running rigging. I also have a lot of deck work to do before the winter rains start.

Anyway I appreciate the advice to an Ariel-newby from you long term Ariel owners. Any additional comments or suggestions will be appreciated.

Scott

Scott a couple local knowledge points I might offer you. There is a yard in Alameda that has done at least one rudder shoe. The people at Grand Marina yard had a mold made and poured a new shoe. Additionally the fellow ebb inquired about a shoe and may have had one made as well. You might want to check with him.

In terms of your motor unless you have a personal relationship with Dave and his motor shop (off Seabright) I would encourage you to find some other shop to work on the motor. I have used the local shop Dave's Motor two times in recent years and both times after paying bills I ended up having to take the motor in to another shop and spending twice as much to have the same repairs done again and more. One shop that seems to be very trustworthy is the Outboard Motor Shop in Alameda near Svens. Good Luck.......ed

Ed,

Thanks for the additional advice regarding rudder shoes and outboard motors. I plan on having Honda dealer go through my 7.5 Honda. I have used that shop before to perform repairs on a Honda 9.9 on a boat that I take care of for a friend here locally in Santa Cruz, and with good results. They were nice enough to check my 7.5 out superficially for me, and although they noticed that there is some evident corrosion damage, they indicated that the motor appeared to have been well cared for. It is however a 1986 motor, and it has been used in salt water (when it was being used) for that entire period, so I am guardedly optimistic, but I do not anticipate that the motor will have a long remaining useful life. However the thing is a four cycle, and it weighs a ton, so in the long run I would probably be happier with a newer and lighter 6hp motor. If the repair estimate is too high, I will be shopping for a used 6hp motor.

I will track down that rudder shoe so that if I need it I will be able to obtain one quickly. Since I am in the midst of a rather extensive overhaul on this boat, I am trying to be careful about my priorities, so that I do not exceed my budget.

Once again thanks to all for the helpful advice. It is wonderful to have this sort of support system for a 35 year old boat....but what a boat!

I use a 1989 6hp Johnson long shaft and it works wonderfully. Gets me in and out of moorages easily and will push the boat against wind and chop to get to them if needed. I will say if you are going up against a stiff current, 4-5 knots or greater, you're probably better off waiting for the tide to turn. The motor is also pretty easy to hoist by hand and when not in use will lay flat in the lazarette. ( I'm not a big believer in leaving a motor in electrically hot salt water unneccessarily) I even built a little cradle to secure it in so I can eliminate the drag of having it in the water when I'm travelling long distances.
As to the rudder, I agree with everyone else about not fixing it if it ain't really broke. There was some play in mine when I bought the boat and I decided to keep a close eye on it and wait and fix it if it got worse. Five years later I'm still waiting. It hasn't gotten any worse and I have used the boat a lot in that time. I have found it helps a bit to make sure the upper bearing is properly seated since it seems to work up away from the rudder shaft tube a little over time.

Thanks to tcoolidge for your response on the rudder and motor issues I raised. It looks like quite a few Ariel skippers use 6 hp motors. Knowing that is helpful, sicn my 7.9 Honda may or may not be on it's lasty legs. I received my Gauhauer catalog today. In a conversation with Gauhauer, I have learned that they have an upgrade to their lifting davit that makes the davit easier to use than it was before by a single hander. It sis not curently reflected in th catalog. I am heading in that direction, and will post my impression when I reach that point. As far as the rudder goes, I do not intend to fix what is not broken, but my surveyor and the prior owner both indicate that I have some work to do on this rudder, and I want to be as informed as possible before I haul out for the first time to minimize yard time, and running around while my boat is out of the water. So thanks to all for the valuable info on this subject. I am finding the Association Maintenance manual, this forum, and the frinedly community of Ariel owners to be valuable respources. This makes me very glad that I decided to buy an Ariel.

Scott,

If your boat has had galvanic activity sufficient to corrode the engine, and possibly the rudder shaft, make sure your surveyor takes a good look at the thru-hulls and sea cocks.

You also mentioned you have a "tabernacled mast." Maybe someday you could post some pictures of that custom feature. It sounds like a prior owner knew what they were doing.

Cheers,

Peter

Peter,

Yes we are going to take a look at thru hulls etc when I haul. I already had the in water survey at the dock, but it wasn't possible to move the boat under the bridge here to the marine yard before I took the plunge by buying the boat. My surveyor was very positive about everything with the exception of some corrosion in the rigging near the top of the mast, the obvious and plentiful impact related deck cracks, and also those in the cockpit, and the rudder issues. He felt pretty good about the thru hulls from his inside inspection, but of course we haven't looked at the hull below waterline yet or the rudder. The outflow thru hull for the head has been relocated, and the cockpit thu hulls are also newer, so I am hopeful that all is well.

Regarding the tabernacle and rigging, someone did a great job on the rigging and spent some money at one point. I have Norseman fittings all around and beefy pelican hooks and a very nice backstay adjusters, but the rigging is now older. The backstay chainplate is original and has not been upgraded, ansd some of the boom attachment points show considerable stress from the lowering process used in the tabernacle. I do want to rerig some things before I move the boat, so I am not yet happy with the tabernacle arrangement. At present it is more or less a two person operation that exceeds my lifting limitation.

One thing to watch out for in a tabernacle is that the mast base should be elevated so that the mast will fully lower without hitting the forward hatch. This is not the case on my boat, so I can not lower the mast far enough to do work on the mast head. You might be surprised how that forward hatch interfers with lowering the mast. On my last boat, I could stand on a short step ladder on the dock and wpork on the mast head. That is very desireable since you don't have to climb the mast to do rigging work or paint the mast.

Also a raised mast base would ease the process of running the halyards back to the cockpit. I am wondering how others have handled that issue, although that is probably a good topic for another post and not this thread. I don't much like drilling more holes near the base of my mast. Starboard and port deck organizer blocks have been installed on the top of th cabin, and there are some appropriate openings (oval shaped holes)for block attachment in the aluminium mast base plate, but there is at present no way to run fair lines from the mast base plate up to the organizer blocks on the cabin top, so I need an intermediate block somewhere to properly align the halyards into those fixed organizer blocks. I have an inelegant solution, but I am still looking for an elegant one. Perhaps I should post another question on the forum on this item.

I will take photos of my tabernacle for anyone who wants them. I do maintain a sailing web page that is listed with my info on this forum's members page. I currently have feature pages on the Marieholm IF Boat, the Marieholm 26, the Lapworth 24 Gladiator. I am currently developing an Ariel page, and hope to post some useful info there including photos in time.

As of this time I have not taken a single photo of my boat, since the work I have been doing is primarily cleaning, painting, electrical, and some cosmetic stuff. When I get into technical modifications, I intend to post those to my site in hopes that they wil be useful to others. I have a lot to do on this boat. I plan to spend some time thinking out tabernacle modifications; installation of a motor lifting davit ( I am in contact with an Ariel Association member who has installed a Gauhauer davit sucessfully; a unique removeable lifeline system (its' about half designed at present); and I also want to deal with the lack of an ice box (I have a spiffy good looking chart table instead); and a head (my boat has none).

Thanks for your comments. This thread has been very helpful to me.

Scott,

The manual has an alternative mast step design in the appendix.  It was for a boat located in Klamath Falls, OR that was trailered extensively.  

As for lines eminating from the mast, come to the ISR on October 20.  Most of the boats participating lead their sail control lines to the cockpit.  Although similar, you will see some different approaches.  

Bill

Bill,

Thanks for the suggestion. I will be at the event on the 20th. However I have a prior commitment here, So I will probably not arrive in Alameda until about 5:00 PM. I look forward to meeting you then, and seeing how others have handled running their halyards back to the cockpit.

Since on my boat two very nice deck organizer blocks have been installed on the topmost portion of the cabin, back from the front edge, my options are limited. The blocks were installed by the previous owner, but the project was never completed. The location of those blocks is the determining factor in designing the rest of the system. I do not intent to move those blocks. A further factor is the tabernacle arrangement, since the mast with its halyards, downhaul reefing lines etc. need to move forward. Therefore I presume that all lines that have been run to the cockpit from the mast mast be uncleated and left to run free before the mast is lowered, and then secured again once it is raised. Motoring beneath a bridge with the intent of sailing on the other side immediately afterwards by a single hander should be an interestiung drill.

Regarding the taberbacle. The metal portions of mine seem just fine in general, with the exception of the conflict between the forward hatch and the lower portion of the mast. This is not a problem for slipping under the bridge here, which is the major objective of the tabernacle,but it does make working on the top portion of the mast at the dock impossible, since the mast cannot be lowered sufficiently to reach the uper portion of the mast in a reasonable manner from the dock. There would be little point in modifying the mast step to solve this problem unless one wanted to replace the standing rigging. In designing a tabernacle system however the mast/forward hatch conflict is an important consideration.

My issue with tabernaclke involves the mast raising and lowering process, which is now accomplished with the main halyard, a six foot length of line to permit the halyard to be attached to the end of the boom, the purchase on the mainsheet tackle, some issues with the traveler, which is not in it's original location, and the current boom guy system.

I intend to modify the back stay to permit it to be detached in the vicinity of the end of the boom, and reattached to the boom to permit lowering of the mast using the backstay and a modified mainsheet system. A new boom guy arrangement is still under study. It will involve some other systems. The current set-up is pretty much a two person operation, but it seems to work fine in that application. For a single hander, it would be tough to do all the stuff you have to do to get the mast down and up again while the boat is moving down a crowded yacht harbor channel.

Thanks again for your comments. See you on the 20th, and for this great forum.

I tip my hat to you.

Don't think you need to worry too much about the Harbor Channel being crowded, though. Once those other boaters see your mast pointing out from the bow like an evil prow they're going to give you a wide berth. ;)

Commanderpete,

You'd be surprised what damage you can do with your mast lowered. The fellow who bought my last boat managed to hit the bridge and dismast the boat. I don't know where the mast was at the time. There is an interesting electrical or phone line just past the bridge when you come in. If you pull the mast up too soon...well the result is not nice.

There are some interesting scratch marks on the bottom side of the bridge. The height of the bridge above sea level varies based on the tide of course, and this surprises some people who get used to how far they play out their main sheet when they lower their mast.
 
Some folks in the outer harbor do come zipping out of their slips into the harbor channel, and not always after careful consideration of the trajectories of those who are about to, or who have just raised or lowered their masts, and some of those are under sail power so they have right of way. It can get dicey. The simpler the tabernacle, the better.

Also these tabernacle rigs have a lot of stability in the fore and aft direction, but very little lateral stability. You would not want to cause a force to be exerted on the mast to port or starboard while it is down. A weell designed boom guy set-up helps keep the boom from flopping over, but does not stay the mast. The aft lower shroud is released and the foreward shroud is slack. A quick turn to avoid a collision with a mast down at a 30 degree angle off the water and your aft lower shrouds and back stay released would not be my choice, particlularly when single handing. It is of course a good idea to keep your crew (if you have one) off the foredeck once the backdstay has been released.

The sad thing about this tabernacle business is that it doesn't have very much to do with sailing, but it requires a lot of bucks to modify the rig to safely lower and raise the mast.I am fortunate to have purchased a boat with a rig that has already been tabernacled.

You can firm up the rudder play at the top end of the shaft with a Cutlass bearing of the proper size , did that to #45 this summer and it feels great . The repair is documented on the Ariel Yahoo site .

Mike

Mike,

Thank you for your reply to my question about the Ariel rudder.

I looked at the photos of your cutlass bearing on the Yahoo Ariel site, but I did not see a written description of its use or installation on theYahoo site. I am new to that web site, so perhaps I wasn't looking in the right place.

In any case, that's a very interesting solution to rudder shaft play. There does not seem to be a lot of play in my rudder, but there is a clunking noise when one turns the tiller sharply. I do have a spare rudder bearing.  Hopefully that will solve part of my problem, although my surveyor tells me that I should also be worried about the bottom of the rudder, and the prior owners told me that they do not recommend taking the boat out into the ocean until the rudder is repaired, but were not specific about what was needed.

Since I have not yet had my rudder out of the water, I don't know yet exactly what I have, or how much of a rudder is actually down there.

Do I understand that you used the cutlass bearing instead of the designed rudder brearing, or was the cutlass bearing used in addition to the standard Ariel rudder bearing? Is there a posting or an uploaded file on the Yahoo site that describes in text form your fix for rudder play?

Scott,
From what I saw , there really isn't much of a top bearing , just an O-ring in the ruddershaft cap .

To read the details at Yahoo , go to the site , look for MESSAGES , and read the threads in July .
If you need more info , let me know .

My repair gives you 4" of bearing surface and it feels like new .

Mike

Mike,

Thanks, the postings in the messages area of the Yahoo site begining in June 2001 and continuing thru July are very clear regarding the use of and specification for the cutlass bearing you used on your Ariel. I appreciate you pointing me in the right direction. I was given a cylindrical piece of plastic (pvc)and told it was the rudder bearing. The plastic cylinder has a rubber "o" ring on it.

I do have one more question for you, however.

Your June 26, 2001 posting on the Yahoo site states in part, "Got a piece of cutlass bearing stock , and made a bushing that goes down
the fiberglass tube under the tiller fitting.
I used 1 1/2" OD X 1" ID bearing stock , fits perfectly inside glass tube."

Page 168 of the Ariel Association Manual shows a drawing of  a "rudder post bearing and rudder post". The bearing depicted on that page appears to be identical to the part that I have. Am I to assume that your cutlass bearing section slips into the rudder post tube under this cylinder, or is your bearing a replacement part for the pvc unit depicted on page 168 of the manual?

Thanks,

My bearing was a complete replacement as I had no bearing at all left in the rudder post.

Mike,

Thanks again. The picture is now complete. Fortunately I do have a brand new bearing, but I find your cutlass bearing solution to be quite intriguing.

Scott,  Mike,  me and my gal's crooked rudder tube will have to use the short bearing.   the micarta original is too beat up, so Scott where did you say you got the new one?  What is it made out of?   I was thinking a replacement could be machined out of delrin just like the original with in and out O-rings

He Ebb, there's a tech drawing of the bearing in the manual.  Check page 168

ebb,

The rudder bearing I have is brand new, but came with the boat when I bought it. I am not aware source or of the manufacturer. It looks like it was manufactured by someone who knew what they were doing, and appears to be indentical to the drawings in the Association Maintenance Manual. What's it made of? I'm not sure. It is white plastic of some sort with rubber or synthetic "o" rings. It could be an original Pearson part for all I know, but as I say it is brand new.:)

I can't resist getting in my two cents of free advice from a Great Lakes skipper regarding motor size.  I used to have a 6 HP vinrude and found the motor very inadequate, at least in this environment.
1.  Reverse is terrible.  When going into a slip in a wind, where it is necessary to maintain speed to maintain steerage, the motor cavitates in reverse and does little to stop the boat.  This might be OK if you have a bulky crew with substantial mass, that is reliable.  However, it is not a good scene with the Mrs.

2.  If you have to travel a distance to get to the open water, the difference in speed between and 6hp and your motor, or a larger one is significant (perhaps as much as 2 mph)

3.  At least on the Great Lakes, the Ariel does not do well in a chop under motor power.  Relatively little wind or chop can stop it in its tracks.  Power (and a power prop) make the difference.

I have also had a 9.9 McCollough which did well, and now have a Yamaha 2 cycle 8hp which works well.  The Yamaha is a light engine (about 62lbs, as I recall).  I have moved the battery forward, and generally only fill the two gas cans half full (unless crossing large distances) to keep the stern light.  I don't pull the engine - even in the winter - but then, I don't have to contend with salt water.

So, in summary, if you are cruising, and sailing with the motor installed, I would go larger, not smaller.  The 7.5 should do well, but make sure you have a power prop.  That makes all the difference in the world.

I finally completed most of my topside work, and went for my first sail. After encountering some steering trouble at sea last Monday, I hired a diver to take a look at the plans in the Association Maintenance Manual and then inspected on my rudder prior to a haul-out while my boat was in teh water.

On Monday, the boat handled well in light winds, but when the wind picked up to about fifteen knots, the boat did not want to fall off from a close reach onto a beam reach even after the sails were relaxed, and I pulled the rufdder hard over. The sensation was that the rudder seemed to have little influence on the direction of th boat. The boat wanted to hold it's close reach course.

The diver tells me that although the rudder looks very much like the one in the Association Maintenance Manual, the installation is not the same as shown in the manual. He tells me that the bronze shaft is one piece.

He also tells me that the shaft seems well seated in the "shoe" on the bottom end, although he described the shoe as an extension of the back of the keel. He told me what I already know, and that is that the top of the shaft has a lot of play in it. I have a new bearing which appears to meet the specification in the manual.

So today I attempted to install the new rudder bearing while my boat was in the water. I removed the tiller, and then removed the two (one was missing) setscrews on the chrome-bronze end cap that covers the upper shaft bearing. The setscrews removed easily, and the end cap now turns freely. I then removed the bolt in the forward side of the chrome-bronze tiller head fitting.

The bolt removed easily, but the chrome-bronze tiller head fitting won't budge. The plan in the manual show a key or keyway, which extends for two inches from the top of the bronze shaft downward, identified on page 170 as "Keyway 1/4" Key".

I am not sure what that means, but from what I can see of my bronze shaft it appears to be perfectly round. I can find no drawing of the tiller head fitting in the manual, although I have a drawing of the shaft, one of the glass tube, and upper bearing, and one of the rudder shoe.

Now my chrome-bronze tiller head fitting, which is stuck to the bronze rudder shaft, can be lifted (along with the bronze shaft) by hand to a position about one inch or more above the top of the chrome-bronze end cap.

My tiller head fitting has a slit in the front, presumably so that when one tightens the bolt on the front side it compresses the fitting onto the shaft. Again, I can't get the fitting off the cap.

My questions are:

Is this normal? Should the rudder be able to slide upon the tube a distance of one or more inches?

How on earth do you get the tiller head fitting off the bronze shaft without damaging it?
:confused:

That bronze bolt that holds the tiller head to the ruddershaft squeezes the tillerhead casting to the shaft.  This is a very good thing. After backing off the bolt,   try to pry it very slightly apart with the blade of a screwdriver so that it will slip off.  Like maybe just tap the blade in the crack.  When it loosens  tap the tillerhead strate  UP.

To my knowledge nothing keeps the rudder itself from rising except its weight and the bottom of the bustle.  If there is a lot of room between the top of the rudder and the bottom of the hull your rudder has cleared the housing of the shoe.   The gudgeon strap is what keeps it aimed at the shoe.  When you remove your rudder you first will have to remove this gudgeon.

The reason you have only a bearing under the tillerhead and NOT at the bottom of the bustle where the shaft emerges is so that when you remove the gudgeon the rudder can be moved over enough to clear the shoe so the rudder can be dropped out of the boat.

IMCO  the gudgeon should be placed in such a way so that if a grounding occurs the rudder does NOT lift out of the shoe.  There should be some play up and down but not so that a stone or whatever could get into the hole in the shoe.   I  don't know if this is an issue on as-builts as 338 came without the strap gudgeon.

Thanks Ebb,

That helps explain what is going on. My diver says that so far the rudder looks pretty good and he says that the rudder is seated well in the shoe or whatever that is down there at the bottom of my possibly modified rudder, but I am concerned about the ability of the rudder to rise one inch or more, as it does now, if that causes the bottom of the shaft to clear the shoe, and as you say possibly come out of the shoe.

How far should the rudder shaft lift the tiller head fitting above the end cap? In other words about what distance is normal, or how far before the bottom lifts clear of the shoe?

By the way, I did force a screwdriver into that crack. I gently pried it and even tapped it with my plastic hammer, but I was gentle about it. I did not want to break the fitting. The fitting didn't budge.

I tried to push upward by putting pressure upwards on the bottom of the fitting but it wouldn't budge.

It would seem to me that if one tapped up on the fitting, one would have to do so while holding securely with a clamp of some sort onto the bronze shaft, or else in my case since my shaft floats upwards by one inch or so, I would be tapping the whole bronze shaft upwards against the gudgeon, the bottom of the hull or whatever else holds it down there.

At present my diver sees no need to otherwise remove the rudder, which appears to be in good shape and has apparently already had a full-length shaft installed to replace the originally installed unit.

My objective is to replace the upper bearing and to otherwise with a diver insure that my rudder is safe, before I head fifteen miles away across more or less open ocean to the marine yard where I intend to haul out for the first time. Since I had some steering problems last Monday in fifteen knots of wind, I am particularly wary. On the other hand it was my first trip to sea in Augustine, and the turkey at the helm could have been part of my steering problem...Although I have experience sailing a variety of fin and full keel boats in all sorts of sea and wind conditions, and have previously broken off two rudders on fin keel boats while at sea, I am brand new to the Pearson Ariel, have never before sailed on one, and am therefore a novice in this regard. I did have the traveler secured on the high side and hadn't yet moved it into a low side (leeward) position after a prior tack when I was attempting to fall off. That would have given me somewhat more weather helm I assume, but that much? I don't think so.

I have encountered boats that won't tack, but not being able to fall off only happened to me once before, and that boat had lost it's rudder. Then again we were eventually able to fall off and did not have any other problems that day.

My problem could just be the need of a top bearing, or could have resulted if the shaft for some reason rose out of the shoe or for some other reason was binding below. However my diver and I played wit the rudder in the water two days ago and it seems to be working just fine.

So all thoughts on this matter will be helpful.

Thanks

Scott, the tiller head fitting can be difficult to remove.  Forcing the tangs apart and using a hammer from below worked for me.  The gudgeon is strong enough to take the abuse. [When all else fails, get a bigger hammer :)]

With the tiller head fitting removed, removing the gudgeon and then lifting the shaft out of the shoe is how you remove the rudder assembly from the boat.  The R&R description in the manual it not very detailed because the process is simple and straight forward.

There is a bit of "slack" in the shaft that results from the less than precision fitting of the gudgeon and shaft.  Usually, it's the size of the notch in the rudder board around the area where the gudgeon and shaft meet that accounts for the upward movement.  Not a problem since the tiller head fitting holds things in place.  

It would be my opionion that your sailing difficulties had to do with sail trim and rig tune.

Even if you had NO bearing under the tillerhead you could still steer - because the rudder is captured by the rudder tube.  It would make you very unhappy.

A new top bearing is a topic you can find on the history channel HERE I hope.      Mike used a piece of cutlass bearing with success.  338 will have  machined delrin in a copy of the original black micarta (because the r. tube is crooked requireing the short bearing.) If I remember there was no concensus on what actually to do for a spec replacement.

If you have a normal shoe, there is a 3/4" diameter hole 3/4" deep in the heel. Your 1" shaft is turned at the bottom to fit.  It actually rides on that bit of a flange on the shoe.   If you raise the rudder an actual inch you have cleared the hole and only the copper strap is containing the rudder shaft.

It's probably too bloody esoteric but I think there should be a bearing in the form of a washer between the ruddershaft flange and the bearing surface of the shoe.  Any ideas?   (deathly silence)

Make sure you do separate what the bolt has squeezed together.  It's all a single casting that part.   You may want to use a chisel the width of the metal to force it open.  More surface to evenly open the split than a screwdriver blade.  The bronze is a bit soft.  And only you know how long it's been on there.:o

I was out single handing yesterday 8 hrs ( celebrating no chemo needed )in a fair breeze , full main and working jib ( should have had 1st reef in main ) , I was able to balance out the boat and walk to the foredeck to clear a sheet , my cutlass bearing adaption works just fine . Was able to steer with my butt when tacking so both hands were free to handle the sheets .
I was rail down and tiller was centered in the cockpit , main traveler was eased all the way down .
I agree with Bill , I think your rig is out or you were overtrimmed .

Scott,
I want to offer a couple of thoughts just to make sure the trip to the yard is safe for you. First I agree with everything being said already. The one point that I did not hear from you or your diver is if there even is a gudgeon/ copper strap. Ebb is right on, if you can raise the shaft one inch there is something wrong. If the shaft lifts that much and the head does come off the next thing to happen is the rudder could end up in the mud.

The second point I might offer is if you had to pull as hard as you say you did and there was no response to the helm other than heavy pressure you might have smoothed off the key in the tiller head. This might be some of the problem in getting the head off. On Pathfinder the key way is hard metal but the key is very soft brass. I have not seen this potential key problem occur but I could see a way it could happen.

My last point/tip is from some years ago. I recall the first time I attempt to remove the tiller head it was a bear to get off. After doing all the spreading and tapping I ended up using blocks and pry bars while someone else tapped. It took some time and switching back and forth but it finally did pop. As a added note I often add a little brass shim paper to the key now that helps take up some of the sloop in the key way......ed

Thanks for all the responses.

My diver returned on Friday morning and did full bottom cleaning for me. I lifted the rudder, and although it does lift one full inch, the diver advised me that the bottom of the post remains in the shoe. The diver reaffirmed that my rudder shaft is one part from hull to shoe, and therfore is other than original. He feels that the rudder and shaft is sound. My bottom paint is even in good condition. Therefore I must conclude that the rudder shaft that I have is slightly different than "as built" designs on other Ariels. Since significant changes were also mae in the rigging, I assume that someone devoted some time and money to upgrading this boat at some time in the past.

I retensioned my stays and took the boat out on Friday afternoon in about 20 knots of wind and a building swell. We sailed with the rail down for about two and a half very wet hours on all points of sail, and had absolutely no trouble steering. This time, we kept the main centered on the traveler the whole day. I had a very experienced friend aboard, and we both concluded that the boat sails well, and that the rudder works as intended. Also, with a clean bottom, Augustine sails wonderfully.

So the suggestions on tuning and mainsail trim seem to have been good ones. My original impressions of lack of rudder control were gathered on the mainden voyage, with a basically untuned rig, poorly trimmed sails and with the understanding from the prior owner that the rudder has some structural problems.

Since my diver has now inspected the rudder, and I tested the rudder at the dock with the diver and under sea conditions and the rudder seems to be to be sound, I feel that I can proceed to sail away to haulout. I will probably dive down there and take a look at it myself before I sail off to haulout just to make sure that there is a gudgeon based on the last comments from Ed.

Thanks again for all the advice on how to get this pesky tiller head fitting off the shaft. By the way, Augustine is looking good and reflecting the hard above waterline work of the past year. I hope to add some photos to my Ariel web site soon.

OK, so forget what I said.

Thanks to all the advice from this site, and plastic hammer, and a mess of anti-corrosion stuff, I was able to get my the tiller head fitting off today...and surprise: I discoverd that the reason the tiller head fitting had been so pesky to remove was that a cylinder made from an aluminum Pepsi can had been used as a shim so that the "jaws" on the tiller head fitting would not clamp shut before the tiller head fitting was clamped tightly to the bronze shaft.

So, we have a chromed-bronze tiller head fitting secured with stainless steel bolts and an aluminum shim to a bronze rudder shaft.

Has anyone encountered this before?

By the way; there is still play in my upper rudder, but the Delrin bearing (white plastic bushing) and its O rings look as if they are nearly new.

To get rid of the upper play , my cutlass bearing fix took out 100% of mine . There is a bearing that fits perfectly and is easy to install .

Wouldn't mind seeing what this white plastic and O-ring bearing looks like.  IMCO the top of the rudder tube is too funky for hi-tech.  The lop-sided micarta bearing on 338 was there 35 year.  The chrome top held it on with set screws in the frp!  Not vey well.

Aren't O-rings for compression aaapplications?  They wouldn't be worth a damn in the turning of the shaft against a stationary bearing surface.    Course if you had a zertz fitting on the tube you give it a shot of grease every Sunday.  Might work.

Go cutlass.  Or have the original remade.  Ref the Mighty Manual.

The white plastic piece with the O rings looks exactly like the one in the technical drawing in the appendix of the Ariel Association Maintenance Manual. I have two of them. One is in use at the top of the rudder tube. It fits very snuggly over the bronze shaft inside the rudder tube, and the outside diameter of the top rim (flange) of the "bearing" is the same as that of the outside diameter of the rudder tube.

That "bearing" has been on the boat for some time apparently, but there is very little if any wear. The second "bearing" that I have is a nearly identical spare. The only diffeence is that the O rings on the spare bearing seem to be a little smaller in width, but of the same diameter as the bearing in active service.

I am still interested to know if if I am the only person out there with a Pepsi can wrapped around his rudder shaft inside of the tiller head fitting.

It seems that one could use a plastic shim instead of the Pepsi can, or even better file a small amount of bronze from the inside of the jaws of the tiller head fitting to permit the fitting to formly grasp the shaft without fully closing its jaws.

IMHO, you are the winner of the Pepsi can contest :D

Yes Bill, I probably am the winner of the Ariel Pepsicola Classic, however the aluminum shim in my tiller head fitting does raise a question:

Are shims commonly used in the Ariel tiller head fitting to insure a tight fit of the fitting onto the rudder shaft, or is this just not a problem on other boats. Pehaps my shaft, which is probably a replacement of the original, is slightly smaller than standard. The shaft, keyway and key appear to be in fine condition.

Is it best to replace the aluminum shim with a plastic shim? I am currently considering using the thin plastic sheet from a "No Hunting" sign.

Or would it be better to file off some of the the non threaded side of the tiller head fitting jaws so that the tiller head fitting will clamp tightly onto the shaft.

This is not a bearing problem, nor is it related to play in the tiller head. This issue relates solely to the fact that on my boat, without a shim, the tiller head fitting jaws will close totally before the fitting is tightly clamped onto the shaft, and therefore the prior owner used an aluminum shim made from a Pespi can to solve the problem. In short has anyone else out there shimmed the top of their shaft, or is my boat unique?

Sounds as though the relacement shaft is undersized making it necessary to shim it to hold the tiller head fitting.  To the best of my knowledge, yours is the only boat to have this situation.  Have you measured the shaft diameter?

Wouldn't be surprised if you took it to a machinist or you could do it yourself:    hacksaw into the closed parts to make a little space to be squeezed.  You'll probably just be cleaning out the crud in the crack anyway.

......well, well well.   Just looked closely at 338s tiller head, and it does have a liner or shim around the inside of the hole.   It could be brass.  But I intend on using it again so I will make an effort to find bronze sheet.  Might be hard to find.  Ihe crack on it has had some bangs which makes it impossible to be drawn closed!

Edson makes a similar smaller/lighter tiller fitting for  1" shaft for around $100.  The crack in it is 3/32".    What makes this fitting interesting is that it has tangs for attaching to the tiller rather than the channel (on 338s) that limits the attachment to the top 1" of the tiller wood.    It's a better design but not near as hefty.  IMCO

[be advised that the keyway in the Edson is on the front of the shaft - the cockpit side]

Interesting.  Maybe Pearson started using slightly thinner stock for the rudder shafts in the higher boat numbers.  When I replaced the tiller head fitting on #76 (in the early '80's), there was no need to shim up the hole to get a grip on the rudder stock.

see below

I did try fit a piece of true 1"bronze shaft in the old tiller head with the shim and it slips right on.  The new head fits more snug (in other words you can't get it on the shaft stock by hand) but it is chromed.  Edson's plain bronze copy may slip on perfect.

338 did have a counterfeit rudder with a stock probably of s.s. propeller shaft as it showed no recognizable galvanic corrosion.  It measures about 1/32 LESS that 1".  No wonder there was slop!  Can we assume that that barely discernable brass liner  is ORIGINAL SHIM?:D

Hey, of all the things of which Pearson can be accused, using multiple metals below the water line is not one of them.  338's ss shaft was/is a replacement for the original bronze.

Very interesting. Augustine is hull #330, and has a shim inside th tiller head fitting, although not original, on a bronze shaft that is probably also not original. Ebb's Hull #338 seems to be in a different though parallel condition.

I want to replace my Pepsi can shim, and would like to find thin bronze sheet to do the trick, but failing to find such material, I will probably use plastic. Anyone know a source for thin sheets of bronze metal?

This rudder business will have to wait in any case. The rudder is serviceable at present, and I have to try out my spiffy new mast-base plates, which I had made of 316 stainless to mount a series of Garhauer blocks to run my lines back to the cockpit. I installed them today and they appear to work well to keep the lines clear as they pass over the rise in the deck. I will have to look for bronze shims later, but it is nice to know that there is at least one other boat out there with a shimmed tiller head fitting. Now I have to figure out what exactly I sholdl do about it.

Places that sell fasteners ( I dont mean HomeDumpo or Lowes ) usually have shim stock of all kinds . Look for an industrial fastener outlet  they will either have it or know where to get it .

Thanks Mike. It's good to know that they make such stuff. I'll look for some shim stock at an industrial fastener outlet in the Bay Area, as soon as I locate one. In the mean time me and my Pepsi can shim are going sailing. I slathered it up with some corrosion prevention stuff for the time being.

ok Mike, into the breech.  ......let's see,  there used to be a had it all fastnerner place on Harrison, I think it was called Harrison and Harrison, in S.F.  I'll check with that high end [expensive!] welding shop that's gotten me out of trouble.  And there's  Randy's [metal] Design - I know he knows.  I wonder if one of those VAST catalogs I hear about have shim material.   MC Masters??

Think I'll get me a selection.  Be good to have on the boat. Stainless and monel too.  Probably have to buy a pound each

Just a few random thoughts on the subject.

 A former owner had sandwiched the original rudder of my #199 Ariel in fibreglass.  As it aged, the glass decomposed, admitted and held water, which rotted the wood, etc, etc.  During  my "seat of the pants" removal and breakdown of the rudder for patterns, I found that the solid looking shaft was indeed the familiar 2 piece Pearson design.  Easy to mistake, Scott, esp. for a diver.

 My tiller also was sloppy, and excess wear was found along the sides of the block, where the tiller arms lay, forward of the pivot bolt.  The previous owner raced a lot, and just wore it out.  A little brazing and Bridgeport work brought it back to dimension.

When you haul your boat, if it doesn't have one, be sure to replace that copper strap to the keel about mid-shaft.  It steadies the shaft against flexing, esp. when hard down and reversing, as well as holding it in the shoe.

When you reattach the tiller block to the shaft, be sure to apply a good quality Nevr Sieze to the mating surfaces.  I use the copper based variety.  For shimming I suggest brass shim stock, but sleeving and reboring to the actual shaft size is the best fix, if you have the time.  

Talk with the Forum sailors, they are a great help.  Murphy's law ordered me to do most of my repairs/rebuilding before I knew of the Forum.  Now I sit here and moan "now they tell me".

When you splash it back in, SAIL THE DAMN THING.  Pearsons are not show dogs.  They like to hunt and are only happy beating to windward at about 22 degrees.  Like C'pete says, if it ain't fun, why do it?

Cheers.

since Izzy left me with a broken rudder (see the thread about Izzy for a pic)  i am mulling over various methods to replace it.

1.  just epoxy the two halves back together, and put a few bronze straps (~12" long)  across the repair on both sides of the rudder, bolted to each other.

2.  make a new mahogany rudder.  using the same manufacturing and attachment methods.  nut pockets in the rudder and all.  i can use all but one of the old bolts (one broke)

3.  make a new rudder out of fiberglass.  this method would leave me with the finished rudder having all the bronze rudder stock encased in fiberglass too.  this might be difficult to install once finished.  i would have to take off the shoe at the bottom, raise the whole boat up high enough to slide the rudder stock up into the boat and in the cockpit.  and then replace the shoe again.

4.  buy the beat up ariel that is in my yacht yard and currently for sale on Ebay, and strip it of all kinds of parts:  rudder, spreader sockets, cleats, etc.  and then sell the remaining parts to everybody in the association.  wasn't someone previously looking for a rudder shoe, an icebox hatch/cover and some cleats?
when i was done raping and pilaging this boat, i would cut the lead out, sell it to a recycler, and throw the hull away.  and Ariel #370 would die, but #3 would live on.....
It sounds like a joke, but really, i am seriously considering it.

any thoughts on the above?

I haven't been watching the auction but if C Pete doesn't mind buy the boat.  It's in your yard, it's cheap, you'll get all of the pieces you'll need/want, you'll get your money back for salvage value.  I hate the thought of destroying her but unless somebody really wants a project boat that's probably where she's headed.  Why not get the most good out of her.  Then use her rudderstock for a pattern to make a new solid rudder out of fiberglass or some other material.  Then reproduce it and sell 'em to all of us for little or no profit!:D
For the time being I think option number one is your best bet.  For what it's worth, Tony G

If you DO chop the boat, I'd really like the rudder shoe from the keel.

Best,
Dave

Option 1 seems simplest, probably cheapest and would probably work but is something of a stopgap measure. These boats, wonderful as they are, are getting along in years and eventually things need to be replaced if they are going to survive. I've generally found that when you have to start holding things together with straps and screws it's time to replace them.
Option 2 would be good if you can find the mahogany. The rudder that came on the boat lasted quite a while so there is no reason for a new one not to do the same. My reservations on this route are finding a decent piece of wood to build the new one out of and the possibility of corrosion or fatigue in the shaft or attachment points.
Option 3 would be great, especially if you follow Tony G's suggestion and produce a few. Since you're going to take it apart anyhow, ending up with a new rudder and not having to worry about it seems like the best possible outcome.
Option 4 would be worth considering just for the spare parts. Having a parts boat would be kind of handy. Before buying it just for the rudder, make sure that you are getting something worth the effort. The rudder and shaft are probably just as old as the one you have now.
If you do buy the ailing boat and want to part it out, let me know.
Tom
Furthur #332

I did option two, with two pieces of mahogney.  It was tricky getting the bolts reset, but it was really interesting seeing how the rudder was origionally built.

Chris

My thought on canabalizing #370 is that it is a TERRIBLE waste.
The rudder is replaceable - but the Ariel isn't.
There just are not enough of these boats around.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if there was a competant and efficient yard that bought them and did a basic reconditioning to get them into the marketplaece again.   Somebody will always want an Ariel or Commander!

Awhile ago an Ensign came into the yard that was lien saled.  Nobody wanted her.  It was stripped, chainsawed and crushed.  Whenever these unfortunated boats are brought to the yard to be murdered,  I make sure I have something else to do elsewhere.:mad:

someone else ended up buying the boat.  and has not responded about his/her intentions (refurb or parting out).

i am leaning toward #1 for the next season, and using this next winter and summer to make a new one.

but whether to make a new mahogany, or a fiberglass one is up in the air.  i am having trouble thinking throught the install of a fiberglass one.

if i make a fiberglass one that is complete, rudder with bronze pieces all molded into a solid, single unit, how on earth do i install it?  i would have to have the aft end of the boat lifted like 3 feet into the air, just to have clearance to fit the rudder stock up into the boat ( the tiller/cockpit end).
my other thought is to replicate the shape the old rudder, and attach it to the rudder stock after the rudder stock is in the boat.  but this introduces other problems: like how to do the fasteners, how to deal with the damn aperature, etc etc..
I don't like the idea of edge bolting a fiberglass rudder like the mahogany one is.
one idea is to leave really large holes in the rudder where the bolts/screws go in, push some screws into place, and fill the cavity with epoxy.

but whatever, that is a thought exercise for later.

I am looking at the same project. Since it appears I have to replace the rudder shoe I figure I might as well do the whole rudder system while I'm at it so it will be done and I don't have to worry about it any more. My current thought is to have a new ruddershaft fabricated with the attachment bolts replaced by bronze straps ( flat stock) welded (or  bolted) to the shaft  then laying up a cold molded strip planked rudder to fit precisely around the straps. The straps would be predrilled  to allow  placement of attachment screws (bolts?) to reinforce the bond. Strip planking would probably be epoxy saturated cedar, which would minimize water entry and result in an incredibly strong final product. It might be a little heavy, but since I'm not a racer, that  doesn't bother me and I would end up with a sealed, easily paintable rudder. Any thoughts?

There's rudder stuff on the history channel here.  Punch Search if interested.
338's clam shell rudder has just been reactivated.
Basically the top third of the blade comes apart, held by a keyed channel on the post with three bolts.  On the trailing edge the shell is held with 4 machine screws.

The rudder post is silicon bronze, as are the 1/8" straps, as are the fastenings. as is the welding wire.  The idea of course was to get all the metal parts the same to avoid galvanic action.  That was fine until Bristol admitted to casting the shoe in manganese.   I had a discussion with Bristol about my rudder - the upshot being that silicon bronze is too soft for the job.  Bristol said they supplied Pearson with rudder stock in the Ariel days and it was manganese.  Roger said that while made from manganese the rudder would last 150 years my silicone one was only good for fifty.   Silicone is 98% copper.

Hell, I attached the Bristol shoe to the rebuilt heel of 338's keel with peened over silicon rod and it seems to be showing some corrosion with crusty bright green weeps.  The boat has been out of the water for more than two years and its showing signs of corrosion!!!  It's obvious that there still is saltwater in the laminate in the aftend of the keel.  But we do have two bronzes reacting.  Out of the water!   They're holding hands in the galvanic series.

The take apart design (the idea is not to have to raise the boat) requires more metal I think than a straight welded rod and strap. I had to kind of double the strapping in the two-part clamshell area.    A plain welded strap to the shaft design IMCO is a good alternative to having holes drilled in the rod for the bolts in the wood version.  Altho there has been no problem with this design, I understand. except aging.  With the 338 rudder I used a rigid closed cell expanded PVC foam (Divinycell) to fill the spaces.  Setting it in with epoxy gell.

I'm just about to do the glass work.  But keeping the take apart option makes the glass work very difficult and takes away from the massive strength gained with sheathing the whole blade with glass  around the rudder post.  To be able to still take it apart the upper third would be split along the rod and, of course, split to the clam shell.  I need a chunk of time to ruminate on the complexity to have it come out ok.

Even so, I'm not happy with the small fastenings holding the design together.

If you did not build your rudder out of polyester and urethane foam like the production boats (C'pete's survey report) but used PVC foam and epoxy, I think the rudder would be waterproof, taking in very little water, depending on the workmanship.

[Weight wise, this is a heavy rudder.  I think it will turn out to be much heavier than mahogany with a bronze shaft.  I also think a recreation of the original rudder will enhance the value of the boat, while a composite or trick rudder might detract.
On the other hand a bronze rudder post (rod, shaft) with welded bronze strap (rolled sheet) developed into an efficient grid that comes to a more pointy trailing edge than the woody - with hard closedcell foam, epoxy and frp (not carbon fiber which is too distant on the galvanic scale
from bronze) - would be most desireable and nearly indistructable.]

Just want to add this:
There are problems with the rudder I remember.
Corrosion, galvanic action?, at the waterline IN the rudder tube.  Manual, I think.

And I think there was something similar happening to the bolts holding the pieces together in the lower half of the mahogany rudder, from some posts in the past.  The ones which pass thru the shaft.

Sacrificial zincs obviously play a big part in protecting the shoe and rudder.  Has anybody a system that seems particularly efficient?

IE zinc on or near the shoe.  Zinc on the rudder.  Are they wired?  Are they interconnected.  Are they independant of thru hulls  ETC   ETC.

On #76 we use a teardrop shaped zinc attached to the shoe.  That protects the shoe and the lower rudder shaft.   Another zinc is attached to the upper rudder shaft via half a jumper cable - one end has the zinc and goes into the water.  The other end with the battery clamp grips the bolts holding the tiller head fitting to the upper rudder shaft.  Both zincs last about four years.

Ebb-
We must see pictures or a sketch of your rudder.  I just cannot picture it.

Bill-
the teardrop anode:  is it thru bolted in place of one of the broze nails/rivets that holds the shoe in place?  is there one on both sides of the shoe (port and stbd)?

We have some early photos of Ebb's rudder design.  I'll post them after I find them.

The zinc is not through bolted to the shoe, only fastened with machine screws using a couple of holes drilled on one side.

Photos of Ebb's new rudder mockup can be found on the Gallery forum in Ebb's Photo Gallery thread.

I got a call from my yard's carpenter about my rudder.

He wanted to do the following:
1. replace the two bronze shafts with a single stainless (or bronze) shaft with a plate welded edgewise along the length.
2. laminate two pieces of marine plywood on either side of the plate and shape the rudder from that.
3. coat the whole thing with a few layers of fiberglass.

He claims that stainless up against the bronze shoe is not an electrolytic problem.  I have my doubts.
He also (after some nudging from me) realized that the install would include lifting the boat about 5' to put in this massive long rudder assembly.

I told him to write up the estimate, but not start the work.  I don't think i will like the result (neither the price, nor the methods).

So, has anybody ever crafted an exact mahogany replacement?
I found a place that has 2x12 honduran mahogany to piece together like the orginal.  
Does anybody know what the drift pins (between two panels) were made of?  Were they mahogany drift pins or bronze.  I am not talking about the bolts/screws that come from the rudder stock, but the pins between two panels.

much gras-

IMCO here.
338 had a fiberglass rudder with s.s. shaft.   It obviously had been on the boat awhile.
I had to recast the rudder shoe (there is pulenty on That here!   Type yer favorite werds into the 'search' option.)   because there was galvanic corrosion on the side of the shoe the zinc was on.   The side of the shoe was also crusted with zinc.   So I don't what happened.   It is entirely possible that the damage to the shoe occured befor the substitute rudder had been installed.   I assumed it was the two different metals.

Merely conjecture:   but if Bristol Bronze, anyway, says the original rudder shaft was manganese bronze,  my assumption is that the bolts or rod going thru the shaft holding the planks together were the more common silicon.   Don't know that Pearson would have used manganese rod.   Right?   If there is a corrosion problem at the bolt and shaft juncture,   it must be pretty unusual,   as the bronze alloys are together on the galvanic scale.

Others vocal on the site here have made rudders different from the original.   IMHO if you have to depend on somebody else to make the rudder I would go as near as you can to the original design.   No epoxy, no glass.   Since it sounds like you have the OB version,   a straight thru version of the shaft would make for a very strong rudder.   After you give the carpenter the plans from the Manual I would ask to see a full scale drawing on mockup showing where the fastenings will go.   If all-thread is decided on I certainly would thread it into the shaft.   You'ld have the machinist do the threading in the shaft to match the rod.

It is important that the keyway for the tiller head is exactly on line with the rudder blade.  I found an (Edson, I think) tiller head that had the keyway on the opposite side of the original.   So I had the machinist mill keyways fore and aft on the top of the shaft.

The original rudder is still active on many A/Cs.   Maybe no upgrade is needed for the traditionalist.   Yes, use Honduras mahogany or Burmese teak.

I like your idea of threading the bolts directly into the shaft.

We'll see if i can convince the carpenter to make a new one just like the old.  my guess that my financier (the wife) will just want the cheapest method.

Capt Mrgnstrn,
The guy has to layout all the pieces befor putting the rudder  together.  All the measurements will be known,  some people might be more comfortable using rod (more metal for your buck) and threading the ends only.

Depending on the size of the rod,  The threaded hole in the shaft could be blind, not all the way thru the shaft.   Maybe this is a way of getting more protection for the fastening from the water.  using 5200 to get a seal where the wood meets the metal shaft.

I'm just noodling here,  it would be great if there was feedback.

In thinking about this 'natural' rudder:  you wouldn't glue the pieces together if you had more than one plank - so you have to allow for the swelling of the wood - how much swelling do you allow for?  Swelling could create a bow in the blade.  Most of the wood rudders I casually see in the yard have this problem.   It is my considered opinion (and I have been called on this) that to help avoid the bowing you make the rudder from pieces where you have reversed the grain.   If it's cut from one narrow plank you flip the faces when laying out.

But as usual, contradicting myself:  
You could 5200 the edges together as a kind of gasket  that could possibly give against the clamping of the bolts and swelling of the wood.   In other words:  I might glue the pieces with say a fat 1/8" gasket of 5200 and not cinch it up with the nuts until it was set.  There may be enough give in the rudder as a unit to allow swelling without getting the curve.   And 5200 is still keeping the whole kabootle nicely together?   Then you grind and sand the blade to final shape.
Just an idea.   But this could be a way of isolating the blade fastenings from possible galvanic action.

Question authority (& tradition!):cool:

Here is an example of a replacement rudder. This one came off of Commander # 199. Its covered with bottom paint and dried slime, but otherwise in reasonably good condition.

I don't have any construction details. It was made about 20-25 years ago. I'm not even too sure how the original rudder was lost. I remember hearing stories of a violent grounding in the Fire Island Inlet.

The rudder is made up of two big slabs of wood. I filled the seperation between the boards with sealant at one point, which probably only made the boards seperate some more.

Five long pins secure the wood to the shaft.

The pins go right through the rudder shaft, which is straight, and solid bronze.

There's a notch at the top.

A pin is formed at the bottom

Good Night!!!  Can you really lift that rudder by yourself?  That's some serious woodage C'Pete.  
What do your neighbours think when you bring 'that, that thing' home with you?;)

Capt Cpete,
Whomever made your 'replacement' two decades ago made an exact copy.   Looks like it's right out of the Manual.    

Looking in from the moniter here at the photos,  the wood shows a remarkable lack of cracking at the top and bottom,  it could be teak in there.

That separation of the planks reminds me of a trick I was once shown.   It is that just befor you put the edge to edge planks together for the last time,  you take the block plane and put a very slight concave in the edges.   Land carpenters do the same with plank tables that are glued.   The idea is to relieve the pressure from the extra swelling in the endgrain.   Seems backwards, doesn't it?

A good part of the trailing edge of the rudder could be carved thinner if a narrow piece was glued to the outer plank over the bolts and nuts.   In other words another straight piece would be glued on over the boltholes.   Just have to be careful when carving to avoid the oversize washer holes.   Think this might work?   Have to really have Faith in the glue!

CPete,  That is a mighty good looking rudder,  and it is the exact one (design, straight through shaft) that I'm presently rounding up all of the items needed to build.  Still haven't decided how I want to join the wood and shaft.  Drilling the shaft really bugs me but I'll bet that it would last another 35 yrs.!

I am looking for a supply source for the 1 inch naval bronze rod; would appreciate any ideas as to a possible supplier!
 Jim,   Mon' Ke Ne  #391

CPete,
 Do you still have the Commander rudder?  What I'm getting at is that I would love to have the actual length measurement of the one inch rudder shaft on the rudder that you photographed so very well.  I'm laying in supplies to build my new rudder in the fall of 2004 follwing the sailing season  and just prior us taking her back up to the great lakes.
 I would sincerely appreciate receiving the measurement if it's not a problem.
 Thanks so much,  Jim

Cmdrpete- The exact length of the shaft would be a very useful measurement for me too, for the same reasons. It is one of the few useful measurements that isn't in my manual so it might be nice to have it posted somewhere that  can be  easily located for future reference. It's seeming like more and more boats are coming of age where the information will be valuable. Length/depth/thickness of rudder would also be handy. Being able to build one without having to haul the boat to take measurements would make the project considerably cheaper.

Tom

For what its worth (and that ain't much) here's a picture my rudder after preping the bottom for some coats of vinylester and then the bottom paint.  I didn't put any plastic on the mahogany (left it au naturale).  Its way dried out.

I'll take some measurements of that old barn door rudder.

Kent, your rudder looks good. I'm just curious because it doesnt have the two horizontal "straps"(?) on each side, spanning the boards.

A production modification?

Well, the yard got back to me.

stainless steel shaft, with a plate welded edgewise
+
marine plywood sandwiched betwen the plate
+
fiberglass wrapped around the whole thing
+
labor
+
lifting the boat 6' in the air for installation
=
$3000

So I said NO DICE.  So now he is going to tell me how much to repair the rudder.  A new repair may be years off now.

oh well.

If that ripoff estimate isn't inspiration enough for you to do whatever it takes to learn how to build a rudder yourself, then I guess nothing will!

Rudders are easy--and inexpensive.  Even factoring in a new shaft (I hesitate to quote here because prices vary so widely depending on vendor and location and quality, but a new shaft on my Triton a few years ago--including a designed bend, welded ears, and milled boltholes--was about $300), you can build a brand-new rudder yourself for about 1/10 +/- of the cost you were quoted.  Obviously, the yard doesn't really want your business--too small a job, apparently, so they figure if you go for the ripoff they can make some easy money.  

I favor duplicating the original construction using solid mahogany boards.  But there are other ways to do it too.  Do whatever pleases you.

Not only do you get to save money, but you can learn new--and apparently very valuable--skills.  The only hard part is getting over any mental block you may have about jumping into the project.  Again:  that quote should be more than enough reason to try!

Good luck.

I replaced my rudder with a single piece of mahogany for $750 a few years ago.  It fit like a glove.  Beautiful piece of woodwork.  Hated to paint it.  I then sealed the wood with a clear penetrating sealer.  If you want the name of the woodworker, let me know.

In addition to the bolts that go through the shaft into the rudder, my old rudder had three or four rods that went into the rudder horizontally from the aft end.  The rudder has worked fine, with no warpage or problem of any kind = and it is still beautiful.

Remember that the Triton shares the same rudder, so that might be another source for you.

$3,000?  Ykes?  That is almost as bad as the Marina that wanted $3,000 to paint my stripped spars.  No deal.

It isn't that I don't have the guts to try to build my own rudder.
It is that I don't seem to have them time, what with redecorating our guest bedroom as a nursery, the list of other home projects.
But we'll see how things shape up in a few months.

The Triton rudder is definitely different than the one pictured above.  Whether or not a rudder from a Triton could be used in place of the Ariel rudder is another question, but the shape is somewhat different--mostly at the top.  Probably some minor modification would make it work if necessary, if one happened to be lying around.  

As it happens, I have a spare Triton rudder here, from hull #100.  It's warped and, frankly, pretty crappy, but if you're interested let me know.  I have no use for it other than as a rough pattern.

In actuality the Triton rudder may be quite different in construction from the A/C.  The few Triton's I've seen here are strapped rather than thru bolted.   Haven't measured, but the aperture may be different,  the machining reduction at the bottom of the shaft that goes into the shoe may be different,  the angle of the keel/rudder may be different between the two hulls,  leading to alterations in profile.

Would be good to know for the record what the actual similarities are..   And what you have to do to put a Triton rudderr on an A/C?

Making a rudder would not be too difficult if you started with an already machined shaft (and bent if you are inboard,)  including whatever style bolt holes in the shaft for the blade.

I don't know of this Triton rudder is original:  it had welded bronze straps bent around the shaft in a U-shape out onto the planks.   Aside from the hydrodynamic problems with the straps being proud of the blade and the fastening heads,  it seems this style would make it easy to replace the wood - you could almost do it with the rudder in the boat.
[This blade  was very thin (about the width of the shaft: 1"),  fatter wood and you'ld dap the straps in for a smoother finish.   Either way, since the U-straps are right angle to the shaft,  the wood would slip in or out pretty easy!   I think it's a good idea.]

My understanding that the two rudders were either identical or substantially the same came from Rudy (whatever his last name was) who worked for Pearson and acquired the parts inventory from Pierson when they bit the dust.  I do not vouch for it myself, since he told me he didn't have any Triton rudders either.

In regard to time, the concept of stripping a used boat is a real time burner - and all you wind up with are well used parts.  It is not a good deal if time is in short supply - and I speak from experience in stripping the parts off my Ariel (including the rudder).

Triton Rudder is WAAAAYYYYY Different. Way bigger, different shape, doesn't hang on the boat the same.

Just make a new one. Honest.

Here's some measurements of that replacement rudder. At the shaft, the wood is rounded out and slightly overlaps the shaft. I measured the width of the rudder from the outside of the shaft.

The original rudder on Commander # 200 is slightly shorter (42 1/2) and wider (18) than this rudder.

The shaft is milled out the same as the plan in the Manual: key at top (2 x 1/4) and pin at bottom (3/4 x 3/4).

There's always some variation between boats, so I would double-check these measurements against the rudder you have.

Pete:

How many rods do you show through your rudder (Other than the screws mounting the rudder to the shaft?  Do the drawings reflect the actual number?

CPete,
  Thanks so much for taking your time to measure your extra rudder!  These measurements will be worth a million bucks to me since I can lay in supplies and make sure that I order enough of everything so that when I bring #391 back to my home in the fall of 2004 I can get on with the job.  I can already have the blade finished, and the 1" bronze ready to cut to the exact length, etc.
Best wishes and Happy Holidays!
   Jim

The three-piece (plank) design is what commander #92 has.  That will be my scheme for replacement this winter, duplicating as closely as possible the original design.

I have inquired to the wooden boat forum regarding wood species, and Honduran mahogany seems to be the best compromise between the original "phillipine" (a little less expensive than Hoduran) and the best material for a rudder, east indian teak.

The thread is at:

http://media5.hypernet.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=008475

More after the new year when I get started...

Last year, as I recall, there was interesting informationon this forum submitted by Mike Goodwin  about woods related to cockpit coamings, which included an explanation of the difference between Honduran and Phillipine Mahogany (the latter being not a mahogany, but a genre of cedar, as I recall).  It might be interesting for you review that (Dec. 2, 2002)

Theis,

Those 5 rods go right through both pieces of wood and through the shaft. A rough outline of their placement is below.

Seems a robust construction method. However, as ebb noted, this style doesn't have a tapered trailing edge. You would need to create that somehow if you wanted it.

I came across an article on rudders. A bit too technical for me

http://www.boat-links.com/foils.html

I have to tell you why your information is so interesting.  You would think that Pearson had a routine - a system for making their rudders, but it seems to wander all over the lot.

When I mentioned to Bill that there were rods through Solsken's rudder, he asserted, unequivocally, that Pearson never put rods through their rudders and that had to have been done by one of the previous owners (in my case there was only one previous owner, and he didn't do it).  So the issue was on the table, and I opined that folding my tent to better authority was the appropriate response.

So now you come with five rods - and the rods go right through the shaft (my rods do not - and there are only three of them as I recall).

I do have three bolts (I think that is correct) in addition to the rods that extend through the shaft into the rudder, and one screw - each extending to about the middle of the rudder (the nut and washer are embedded in a cut out in the wood rudder.  

Like others, my original rudder was made of three pieces - which, over time separated.  The outside piece was largely held on by the rods because the bolts did not extend into it.

So - the point is that there appears to have been considerable variation in the way these rudders were assembled.  For reference, Solsken in #82 built at the end of 1982 - or so I have been led to believe.

Pete's rudder diagrams are of his REPLACEMENT rudder, not an original.  Correct me if I am wrong.  They did not follow the original design in number of planks or fastener types and locations.  See the diagram in the manual which does not show the drift pins.

The drift pins (rods) are a common feature of these traditional plank rudders.  Mine has three and they do not go through the rudder shaft.

The drawing in the Manual shows the original rudder was attached with (3) 6" bolts and (3) 5" wood screws. It also says the rudder is "solid mahogany."  

I've only seen rudders that had the three planks. The original  rudder on my Commander 200 looks about the same as Dave Bogle's. Here's a pic, taken just after haulout.

You see those horizontal slats, which don't appear on some rudders, like Kent's

I was looking for those horizontal slats, but assume CPete took the picture at an angle, and, if rotated to be viewed properly, the bow facing toward the sky, the spaces between the slats would be horizontal.  I assume CPete that such is what you were referring to when referring to horizontal slats.  Right?

My original rudder looked similar to CPete's, and, like it, the slats had separated/shrunk (not good).  The bolts went through to the center of the center slat as I recall.  The propeller insert (for the outboard version) was held in place by a couple small angular screws from the wood rudder to the wood insert.

It might be interesting to associate a year with the boats we are referencing so we could get a take on if, and the extent to which the design changed over time.

As I have said in previous rudder related threads, I'm getting all of the materials together so that I can really get to work next fall and build a new rudder.
  Things a really falling into place pretty well.  I was really considering "Jamestown Distributors" for the 1" rod except that it is silicone bronze.  This past week I found another supplier near Chicago called "Copper and Brass Sales" in Schaumburg, Il. phone: 800-926-2600.  They have true "464 Naval Bronze rod" and it is $50.00 cheaper than J.D. for the approx. 6 foot length that we need for a Ariel shaft,  or $148.43 for 6 foot of 1".  They also have many other rod sizes and I think I'm going to use their 5/16 " naval rod from blind holes through the planks.  Just thought I'd pass this info along.
____________________________________________________
  I still am looking for companies which sell Hondouran Mahogany if anyone knows of any.                                                                            Jim__________________________________________________

Jim:

There are two places you might want to look at.  One is Kettle Morain Hardwoods - with a place on 94 just south of Milwaukee (Racine area) and one just north of Milwaukee.  The town is Caledonia and the phone is 835-9212 (Don't know the area code but it might be 262).  They are very helpful - good people - and they like sailors.

There is/was a place in Bedford Park, just south of Chicago, that handles specialty woods.  I used to deal with them but now have found the first place, closer to home.

Jim,

You might try Pekin Hardwoods S. Main St in Bloomington.  Their yard is just south of Pekin, but they have the retail store in Bloomington and can get most anything you need.  Nice folks there...just don't ask for marine ply, unless you like blank looks.

Probably should keep my mouth shut.

Naval bronze is naval brass and can have as much as 40% zinc to 59% copper,  with a bit of tin as a binder.   Better ask for the alloy numbers from the supplier.   And I would get the alloys closer together on the galvanic scale viz the shoe/shaft and aft thruhulls.   But then that's just my opinion.

Theis, Greg, and Ebb;
  Thanks to all of you for the help and ideas onthe wood suppliers and the bronze!  Bloomington is close to me so I'll run up and have a look. I'll write or call Kettle Morain and the Caledonia Co. and Pekin.
  Ebb,  you're input is valued, I appreciate your thoughts and I will take heed!  I only want to do this rudder once and as correct as possible.  I will be wary since I know they will sell you anything just to make the sale.  Such are the times in which we live!  I have a good sailor friend that is a metallurgist so I'll get the assay and run it by him.
   Jim

Jim:

Kettle Morrain Hardwoods is in Caledonia, WI.  There is no Caledonia company that I am aware of.  Good Luck!

Thanks Capt Jim,
Pearson didn't get it too wrong in the beginning.   The class here went through this  and discovered that manganese bronze was used for nearly all the cast fittings and the shaft.   The stuff is expensive,  but that is relative.   The dynamic shaft/shoe combo lasted nigh onto 40 years until we came along to refurbish.

Have to amend this.  So I looked it up:
manganese b....... Naval brass .........  Everdur
58.5 copper.........60 copper..........    98.25 copper
39.25 zinc...........39.25 zinc..............0
1   tin..................75 tin...................0
.25  manganese.... 0..........................25
1  iron..................0.........................0
0.........................0.........................1.50 silicon

Tensile strength psi of rod.:  Hard and soft:

m.b. 45,000 - 30,000.   n.b. 63,000 - 56.000.  Ev  70.000 - 40.000.

Looks like manganese and naval are just about the same.   Well, alloying is still a mystery to me.   I went with Everdur.   Awhile ago I had an animated discussion with Roger at Bristol Bronze.   He stongly supported his highly alloyed manganese,  which.  he said,   Bristol had originally supplied Pearson for the A/Cs,  including the shaft.:o

Ebb,  Thanks for the comparative assay on manganese and naval;  boy they really are close;  are you saying that Bristol Bronze has manganese rod in the sizes that we need:  One Inch and 5/16's?
  Theis, Thanks so much for the corrected address on Kettle Morain.
  Jim

This should be filed somewhere readily available by anyone contemplating rebuilding the ruddershoe or shaft. It will be useful before you are done. I'm making it an appendix to the manual and giving a copy to my mold maker.  Thanks for the info and effort.
A while ago I did some searches for manganese bronze and naval bronze  and turned up a couple sites that seemed to have rod in every size and alloy known to man so anyone looking for rod could consider that route. I'm waiting until I know the exact alloy of the new shoe and then matching that
for the ruddershaft and drift pins.

Tom

Ebb

That is great information.  Thanks.  But you choosed Everdur, Roger prefers Manganese Bronze, and I assume the reason for the name Naval Brass is because it is for the Navy (as contrasted with an area of the body).

Your information raises the questions Why did you choose Ererdur, Why does the Navy prefer Naval Brass, and why does Roger prefer Manganese Bronze?  I understand hardness is one reason.

What about the corrosion element/electrolysis of the compounds?  Is it that one is a new and improved version of an earlier type?  Can they all be machined by the average machinist?  What about cost?  As a point of reference, last year we discussed electrolysis and the need to have multiple anodes.  Is there a linkage between electrolysis/anodes and manganese bronze - whereas corrosion is less of a problem with the other two compounds?

As for the mystery of compounds and mixtures, it is truly wondrous how a little of this or a little of that can change the properties of something - like adding a teaspoon of cayenne peppers to a bowl of otherwise edible spaghetti.

Manganese bronze rod is available in all sizes.   If you are going to make a traditional rudder,  I would match the  internal rods. too.    The problem is getting the alloy only in the length you need,  because it is sold in 6 and 12 foot lenghs.  or however the supplier deals it from the foundry.  [I have a couple of two foot pieces of 1" Everdur left over from my ruddershaft adventure that cost the price of gold,  are two precious to get rid of,  are too short to do anything with.]

I went with Everdur because I had already cast 338s new shoe in silicon.
I had reasoned with self that silicon is commonly available and that it was likely that any bronze in the water would be silicone.

I then found that B.B. would do castings to patterns I made..  Very cool.  Roger is,  IMCO, committed to manganese for static load fittings.    My discussion with him,  which was 95% listening, about my underwater choice in bronze,  was when he came up with that manganese would last 100 years but silicon only 50.   Bristol has made all the highend jewelry for all the great highend yachts forever.   And that Bristol will suffer a fool like me makes Roger close to god.   But m.b. over time disintergrates in modern salt water.   I think we two ended with a stalemate.  

I'm a 'doubting thomas.'   There is no doubt that in water fittings on the A/Cs have a problem (in salt water and in marinas..)   My reasoning is simple:   there isn't enough other ingredients in silicon bronze to leach out and crumble the fitting.   Which has happened with our boats,  right?   Manganese is the best bronze alloy for fittings under load above the waterline.

B.B.  might be a source for m. rod.   I think his prices are highend but fair.   I would check local suppliers.

Bristol Bronze is very committed to resupplying his firms original fittings that Pearson used.  But the original molds got lost and a pattern maker has not appeared to make authentic copys.   If 338's shoe mold is succesful I'll donate it to the ACA or give it to Roger.   [by the way for the nth time - Bristol also has a beefed up version of the 338's stem fitting (in m.b.) that I know he has sold to one Triton owner who was happy with it.   I don't know how much.  He cosiders the molds you send him as 'public domain.'

I think the crucial observation is that no matter which alloy is chosen it will in all likelihood  outlast the chooser. I've wondered if Pearson was as concerned as we have become. My guess is they called for naval bronze because that is what was most readily available at the time  and it had been proven to work for centuries. But I've also found that naval bronze means different things to different people and wouldn't be surprised if Pearson left the mixture to the foundry. In the early 1960's the simplest solution would probably have been the most likely and using special alloys that weren't absolutely neccessary would have been unlikely.


Tom

Good information.  Thanks.  You know, after everthing is taken into account,  fresh water sailing is so easy - all we have to do is worry about ice, sleet, snow, shallow water and howlers.  None of this corrosion stuff (Unless your boat is wintered next to a chemical factory on the south side of Chicago) and hurricane intimidation.

I rebuilt my Commander rudder useing the original shafts. A blow
by blow account can be found in the archives in Jim Wiles-
"Let's talk rudders" thread. I built this trouble free(6 years and counting)
rudder for about  three hundred dollars and a lot of head scratching,
without having to raise the boat. Check it out.
Cheers,B.
Commander#215

On Hustler (Ariel #223), we replaced the rudder 2 times.  The first time, we duplicated the original.  We lost that rudder in medium air with the chute up.  The  second replacement was made from aluminum (may have been stainless-my brother-in-law handled getting it done) with the shaft and rudder welded together.  This was done in 1994-1995 and is still holding together nicely.  Designed the rudder to be narrower, not as tall, but a good 3 inches longer.  Made the boat handle much better and took a lot of weight out of the back of the boat.

Has anyone found a supplier for a exact replacement rudder head fitting?
   I think that I have wear in the keyway that I would like to eliminate this season with the old rudder and defintely next season with the new rudder.
   Jim

That's one of those parts for which Rostand has the pattern.  Still waiting for the patterns to be donated . . .

Keyway can be shimmed with paper thin brass sheet.

Bill,  My appologies, I should have remembered the posting speaking to the subject of Rostand.
          The thin brass sheeting is a good idea to shim with.  I'll keep that in mind.  Also, a good source for that kind of thing ( thin brass, stainless, etc.) is model railroad scratchbuilding shops!
           Another thing that I'm going to do is to mic both sides of my keyway;  one side or the other could have worn out of tolerance and what I'm thinking of having done is to have some key stock specially machined to the measurements.
   Thanks, Jim

Of course, I cannot find the part laying around anywhere right now (and I did look a bit recently)...but I found a replacement head fitting for another guy's Triton in one of the area seajunk stores not too long ago...the part was cosmetically a bit different, but it worked fine on his boat. These parts were a pretty common size for the type of rudder setup, which was pretty common once upon a time. Might look around that way, too--I think it was less than 50 bucks for a real nice rudder head and the tiller fork to go with it.

Dave

Dave,
 Thanks for the tip on the reclamation stores.  I'll make a mental note of that.  There are three or so of these stores that I have visited in the past in Michigan, Fla., Alabama.  Aa I recall I did have good luck there!
   Jim

To Everyone interested in rudders,
 We finally have all of our rudder materials and we are actually building a RUDDER!  Really though,  everything was fairly easy to find, was shipped fast, I drove after the mahogany, and really not badly priced.  The bronze is really beautiful, the wood is really dense, solid and smells really good.
  Will keep you posted and possibly post some pics.
  Jim

The rudder is looking great.  I had a custom milling company actually do the wooden rudder blades ( I made two for $190.)
They really fit the 1" shaft like a glove.  Will post some pics soon
   I took them with me to our marina to show my friends and they fell in love with them.

   One question for the group:  quite a few of my friends thought that I should somehow seal the new mahogany.  What do you all think?
   Thanks,
    Jim

Absolutely you should seal it and seal it and seal it.  Apply VERY liberally.  The mahogany takes it like a sponge.  Both Pettit and Interlux make a clear sealer tha soaks in.  It is easy to apply and soaks right in.  Use the sealer, not just a thinned down varnish.

Sealing is particularly true in fresh water, as I recall being told, because Mahogany does not have the resistance to rot as it does in salt water.  Also, you don't want the additional weight of the waterlogged rudder draging down the stern.

Jim:  what style of rudder did you go for?  the original heart shaped, or the "Constellation" style shown in the lines in phantom?

Also, what method of attachment are you using?  welded plate along the back of the shaft or the original edge-bolted style?

much grass.

Hey, I have posted the question of coatings at

http://www.boatbuilding.com/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?read=11364

My understanding of bouyancy of the rudder is that neutral bouyancy - watterlogged wood - is best.  Therefore, I was not considering any coating other than the porous bottom paint.

The participants at the above forum were very helpful and knowledgeable regarding wood boat construction and my previous posting regarding species was invaluable.  

http://media5.hypernet.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=008475

Now I just have to find the weekday-time to get to Condon's in White Plains to pick out the suitably-grained plank.  Though they will ship, they would not guarantee they would be able to pick the "right" grain for my demanding project.

Hi everyone and thanks  so much for your input.  I built the original rudder shape which I have used for 25 years.  We are using the continuous shaft from head to shoe and drilling 1/2" blind holes in shaft for five 3/8" bronze rods which will exit aft rudder.  Should be very stout.  Rods will be tig tacked to shaft following being screwed into the holes so that they cannot loosen.  Lock nuts and suitable sized washers will be used on the rod ends.  Will fair the aft rudder edge following the first season of immersion.  Should fair very nicely.
  Thanks for the web site dealing with toseal or not to seal.
  Hope to shoot some digital pics today to post here.
  Jim

  p.s.  Commanderpete's drawing and measurements of his old Commander rudder were right on the mark  and helped me a great deal.  I thank him so much for his time and effort.
 I measured my bronze rudder shaft with a fish tape vicegripped to the top of the shaft and through the rudder tube and measured to the top of the bearing surface on the rudder shoe, and certainly added the length of the boss to the total.

Finally got everything together and got the new rudder/shaft/shoe on the boat. Everything fit, it works wonderfully and I'm a happy camper.
Some observations from the project
1) Also had some keel heel disintegration once I got the old shoe off. Not as bad as Bill Hoover's but of the four ruddershoe bolts only two were anchored in something solid. Kind of scary and you can't tell unless you take the ruddershoe off. Might be worth considering as a potential maintenance problem.
2) The rudder shoe Fred Pomeranz built fit beautifully. It's a little wide at the front end (about 1/8" on either side on the front edge) but that was easy to fair out. Could also have  ground down the excess without affecting the strength of the casting. It's substantial, considerably more so than what was on there.
3) The old shoe was silicone bronze. Having seen what happens to silicone bronze over time, I'm glad I went with manganese. The old shoe and shaft were so worn that the rudder shaft/shoe fitting was totally deformed. I also found that although the metal had a nice bronze color when I scraped it when I hit it with a hammer while driving the pins out it fractured because the metal was so crystallized. Once I had it off I could flex the sides of the shoe  inward just by squeezing. Not my idea of solid. I'm also relatively certain the old shoe was not original. It had been amatuerishly faired with a filler that was easy to remove and when it was out it was easy to see where the original ruddershoe had been and much to my delight the new shoe fit there almost perfectly.
4) I went with a solid manganese shaft with five drift pins to attach the rudder to and this baby is also substantial. There is something to be said for knowing your rudder is a bit overbuilt. (if you're not a racer) Used a slightly different technique for the rudder boards- instead of using 2 2X10 mahogany planks I used  1X10's and face epoxied (and screwed) them together after I routed grooves in both sides to fit the drift pins. Didn't have the drilling equipment to drill true, accurate holes in the 2X and doing it this way worked well. Also figured that having opposing grains on either side would help lessen the tendency to warp. Will see how it worked next haulout.

After I got it together I took the boat for a spin around the harbor to make sure it worked then took off the next day for a three week trip up the east coast of Vancouver Island. Probably wasn't the smartest thing to take off with an untested rudder but I felt confident, knowing how much more sound the rudder assembly was than it had been, and I didn't have any problems, and ran into some serious wind and waves along the way. I must say it's a lot more fun using a rudder than installing one.

My thanks to everyone who offered help, advice, observations through the project. Your input was invaluable and it wouldn't have come out as well without it.

Happy sailing,
Tom
Tom

Congratulations Tom Tom,
Let me say this:
The first important thing is to get all your bronzes the same alloy.
I believe that will go a long way to keep corrosion at bay   yOU HAVE DONE THAT WITH YOUR SHAFT AND SHOE..

The second important thing is that there is nothing wrong with silicon bronze,  for the same reason as above.   In fact there is LESS to leach out,  in a hot marina say,  than manganese.   Besides I chose silicone.   And a good reason for that is:  the other components in the rudder:  allthread. rod and bolts, even thruhulls  are impossible to find in manganese.

Third, as you state in your post your FORMER bronze shoe was of an alloy that disintegrated,   AND  readers should respond to your graphic detail of the rudder shoe's FINAL DEMISE!

I don't believe you can assume the former DFO's rudder shoe was SILICON BRONZE!   WHY do you think so???
IMCO the shoe was cast in NAVAL BRONZE,  which is actually brass,  which has enuf zinc in it to be a back up battery.   What you describe is major dezincing,   which could NOT happen to silicon bronze.    Never use naval bronze.   Simple statement.   It is the truth.

In fact I think what you have witnessed here is an empiracal example of the WRONG alloy to use in a the Ariel rudder shoe,  especialy if you have chosen a dissimular alloy for your rudder shaft.

Now,  of course you have silicon bronze hiding in the blade of your restoration......we shall see,  we shall see.   Manganese is NOT the more noble bronze here!  Silicon is!   Even WINIARSKI can't deny that.   Did you use m. bronze for the pins?  
On 388 I used all s. bronze.   Yet I got signs of a reaction when captured water passed thru the laminated the shoe is attached to and out a couple of the holes the pins were peened over on.

Manganese bronze is actually a brass.   Some of these alloys have as much as 40% zinc in them.   They are rated as corrosion resistant.   As we know the right combination of unpredictable galvanic circumstances and the cookie crumbles.  The right combination may never befall you.  Bristol Bronze said they supplied the original Pearson Ariels with manganese shaft and shoe.   AND THEY LASTED AS LONG AS THEY DID.
Your former disintegrated could very well have been manganese bronze.
Assume is the mother of all f...ups!

Ebb,
I think you are probably right about the old shoe being naval, not silicone bronze. Electrolysis wise it makes more sense and the old shoe was definitely missing some molecules of something. That being said, I'd still go with manganese. It has a higher tensile strength and is considerably harder and after seeing the wear the old shaft put into the shoe I like the idea of a harder bearing surface. As to having silicone bronze inside the blade, the only silicone I used were the nuts, which are now encased in an inch of epoxy and pretty well isolated. As you so accurately point out, manganese bronze nuts and other parts don't exist so I had to use silicone. The rods are manganese bronze cut to length and threaded on both ends and the pins for mounting the shoe are manganese rod peened and ground off so it's all pretty much the same alloy, which is the key, regardless of which you choose. And even with matching alloys I've become a big believer in zincs.

Tom

I know a little bit about rudders--at least enough to point me toward the right marina bar with the right woman in tow. Whether she is of a silicone construction or not is a matter of little import at best. But I do like 'em brassy. Whadda you two zinc?

I have a pearson commander (late 1960's) the old wooden rudder is finally dead.  

I need help and information that will lead to a replacement.  

Any thoughts


Bernard A. Kravitz
bakravit (A) comcast.net

The rudder on my (alas) former Commander was simply a few pieces of mahogany glued/bolted together with appropriate holes for drift pins and attachments.  If yours is still good enough to make a pattern and the metal pieces are intact, it is not a big job from a woodworking point of view.  Or I guess you could use thickened epoxy and fiberglass and encapsulate the existing rudder.

As Bill always reminds us, using the search button will turn up more advice on a given subject than most people can assimilate in one sitting.

Happy New Year to all!

Al Lorman

Thanks Al   ;)

I have decided that since my rudder is probably original, I'm just going to completely rebuild it, sticking pretty close to the original design, except I agree with EBB and have decided to use Silicone Bronze 655 throughout. The shoe is my only concern, perhaps I will use a zinc there or are there silicon bronze repros available? Or should I worry about it?
I got a quote from Alaska Metals in Seattle (I was a little put off by their misleading name) of $111 for a 6ft length of 1" rod, sounded like an OK price.
Also got a quote from Edensaw in Port Townsend for $6.73/bf for 4/4 Honduras Mahogany for the rudder itself.
Anyone interested I would be willing to pick up extra supplies for you if you are along my route down south. Free shipping in exchange for beers and/or sailing? I will be driving from Alaska to San Francisco in late March or early April.
I also may be willing to build an extra rudder if someone was interested. Its always more efficient to do multiples for this kind of thing to defray the cost of setup, tooling, etc.

Good price for 655 Bronze rod.

Took a quick look at onlinemetals.com ($160) and Mcmaster Carr ($188). Then you have shipping...

By the way, Welcome Aboard

Couple of questions on the drift pins that go through the wood

Would you use threaded rod?

Instead of that, can you use solid bronze and cut threads in the end for the screws? What kind of tool does that?

How would the pins be secured to the rudder shaft. Just hammer the end that comes out the hole in the shaft? Weld it?

Howdy,
338's silicon bronze shoe was cast over in Richmond at California Castings.
From too many posts here you may have discovered that mine is oversize in that it follows the specs in the Manual.  I don't know if the manganese b. rudder shoe available here on the site follows those specs.    I understand the m.b. shoe has all the holes drilled and it's polished and ready to mount,  and you can get your name on it, too, wow.

You can borrow my mold,  which has the original motheaten one off 338 inside.  (I straightened the sides which had been pulled in by bolts and filled in the corrosion with bondo, side holes too - and made the sides of the shoe a full 1/4")   Unless you are particularly handy or have access to a machine shop, drilling the 3/4" hole for the shaft is a bit of a problem.  Some would have to make an elaborate jig, while someone like Mike Goodwin for sure would probably do it behind his back. :D

Hey C'pete,
Use solid rod, fills the hole better.  Threaded rod leaves spaces that would be hard to fill.  Solid rod fills the bore hole exactly.
Easy to turn threads in copper
and why not tap the holes in the shaft for threaded rod/bolt also?

The hole would not have to go all the way thru.
The hole is essentially smaller not being a full size bore.
Threading the plank rods into a BLIND threaded hole has to be the cleanest, friendliest attachment method to the shaft.  If you can keep the rod/bolt from going thru you will have less exposure to corrosion at that critical point - the wood of the rudder comes right up to the shaft in a 1/2-round dado and will beautifully cover that rod/bolt connection with bedding compound or rubber.   No exposure there at that critical juncture if your alloys don't match exactly.:)

Ebb, Wow! That may be just the thing! My brother in Brownsville is a bit of an amatuer machinist and should be able to help me out there, I think he can do the work on the shaft as well. My specialty is the woodworking side. How much did they charge you to cast your shoe? Maybe I should have a few done for others who might want them in the future...
I'm thinking I will keep the bend design for 2 reasons 1.reduced stress where the bolts enter the shaft 2. Easier to get the rudder in/out without digging a trench. But I want to do away with the cutout and instead bore an angled hole for the bend. This should add some strength to the attachment. Any thoughts from those who have done a rudder rebuild?
On a slightly different note, when I was down last weekend I talked to Gene Roberts and he said there were improved tiller bearings & seals available, anyone know who to contact about these?

CP,
I was thinking about that topic, I will use solid rod of the same silicon bronze and either cut threads to screw rod into shaft or weld onto shaft directly. As added security I may pean the end of the rod onto the shaft. The threads are just cut with tap & die. I will ask my brother, the machinist about all this, he'll know better than I...

Tim, do "searches" on rudder shoe, rudder, rudder shaft, etc. and you will soon be up to speed on these subjects.  A good bit of reading involved, but it will be worth the effort.

Bill's right.  There's beaucoo stuff to wade thru, should do it, it's worth it.  Stick to the traditional rudder building/repair threads.  Explore this site here and you'll find Admiral Bill offers the shaft sleeve bearing at cost.   This is the bearing that sits on top of the fiberglass rudder tube underneath the chrome cap.

The bend in the shaft, the two piece rudder shaft with the top part of the shaft bent, is the proper restoration rudder to make new.  The upper shaft is bent to provide support for the upper part of the blade.   This  allows the blade to be cut away below to swing the prop for those boats with inboard engines.   Evidently all rudders were built the same way, with the crooked shaft, but the blade was assembled without the cutout for OB models.

(338, an OB model with a well, had a hollow area glassed in where the corresponding gap in the keel for the prop would have been  had it been an inboard.)

Many OB models have an "after market" single piece straight-thru  shaft for their new blade, when a rebuild was needed.  IMCO this is the easier design to make.   All rudders are one piece and all one piece rudders  will require that a hole  be dug for removal - or the vessel to be lifted.   The seemingly insignificant strap gudgeon is a very important part of the rudder system and has to be designed into any rebuild of any description.

Quote from: Tim61NAnyone interested I would be willing to pick up extra supplies for you if you are along my route down south. Free shipping in exchange for beers

Tim, That's too generous!  I looked on a map and, technically, we're south of your starting point.  So... :D

This assoc. forum is a great tool for jobs like a rudder rebuild.  It's like a mini-web with only the information you're looking for.  There has been lots of different techniques and ideas discussed here and you should find answeres to any of your questions.  Who knows, you might add a new twist to the picture yourself!

Like C'Pete noted, that's a good price for the Si Bronze bar.  One other note, being it is a 1" bar you may want to go with 5/4 mahogany, it's a full inch thick.  I know, I know, I go around and around with my finish carpenter friend all of the time about how they're all involved in a national conspiracy to rip-off the public a quarter inch at a time.

Thanks for bringing up the bearing and seals again, I knew I needed to order something.  Tony G

Northern MN?? It think that would take a few extra beers! Brrr, you're weather is probably colder than mine!
I wasn't thinking quite straight on the Mahogany, I will need 6/4 or a little thicker and then I will taper it down toward the tail.
I've already spent several hours on this site reseaching the rudder issue, but it's a deep vein, every time I think I found all the info, I just dig a litter deeper and find some more treasure. The amount of info here is amazing!

Tony,
Right on!
You could even go to 1 1/2 (even easier to drill the long holes for the tie rods,) and beltsand the blade down to its final shape.
Never found anyone interested in explaining just what the shape of our 40year old blade is in terms of chords.   All the blades are dead flat - the ones I've seen on Ariels and Tritons.

IMCO a better shape would be to start with the thickness of the keel where the shaft is, take the fullness back a bit and then work in a mild chord to the end of the blade.  That would leave more meat over the bolts, too.   The original 1" thick blade had to stay fat because of the internal fastening system.  The ends I've seen are blunt and rounded.

Modern blades get very thin at the trailing edge.  They seem to terminate in a hard edge 1/4" wide.  The 1/4" wide flat is canted ie NOT square or symetrical to the sides - to avoid vortexing the water leaving the rudder.   One could mimic this 'modern' advancement by fabricating a rudder from hydroply  and welding 1/4" plate to the shaft instead of rod.  You would fasten thru the plate.   Or have larger holes in the plate thru which you would glass to the opposite side.   Realy strong way of doing it, to me.   Ideas?

Just fooling around. :D

Quote from: ebbModern blades get very thin at the trailing edge.  They seem to terminate in a hard edge 1/4" wide.  The 1/4" wide flat is canted ie NOT square or symetrical to the sides - to avoid vortexing the water leaving the rudder.   One could mimic this 'modern' advancement by fabricating a rudder from hydroply  and welding 1/4" plate to the shaft instead of rod.  You would fasten thru the plate.   Or have larger holes in the plate thru which you would glass to the opposite side.   Realy strong way of doing it, to me.   Ideas?

Seems like that 1/4 plate would add a bit of weight back there?  How about just a "cap" made of bronze or aluminum on the end of the rudder with a nice feather to reduce vortexing?
Tim

A few items:

For CommanderPete's question, a "die" cuts threads on the outside of a rod.  A "Tap" cuts threads on the inside of a hole.

For a nice feathered edge, copper strip might work best: easy to bend into place, and has natural anti-fouling properties.

I just got done doing the major part of my rudder rebuild:  tapered two sheets of plywood, cut them to the right outline of the rudder, used various sizes of cove bits to put half of each of the bolt holes in the wood, epoxied the bolts, wood and everything into one unit, and next up is putting a layer of fiberglass over the whole job.

I didn't use a belt sander to taper it, but instead used a table saw with a carriage and a 3/4" wide dado bit.  If anybody is interested in how that works, let me know.

I had a new shaft made, like Ebb mentions, the single shaft method.  I had a machine shop drill and countersink holes for the 6" long 3/8"diameter flathead machine screws which cost me a fortune.

Had I to do it all over again, I would not have used the bolts, and probably would have gone with the drill and tap method like Ebb mentions.  Although if the hole and threads weren't all the way through the main rudder shaft, the machine shop might have problems running threads all the way to the bottom of the hole.  or might just charge extra.

And for Future Reference of All:  Schubert's Welding and Machine shop in Annapolis is a one-man-show, who almost exclusively works in custom everything, and any material he can get ahold of.    His number can be found on yahoo phone books.  He made my rudder shaft and did it perfectly. and for an honest price ($300 for material and machining)

Quote from: mrgnstrnI didn't use a belt sander to taper it, but instead used a table saw with a carriage and a 3/4" wide dado bit.  If anybody is interested in how that works, let me know.

Yeah, I'm always looking for new shop tricks
Tony G

Hey guys,
NO feathering.  That creates the deadly vortex.   Have to come to a sharp blunt end. Confusing.

But certainly I'm confused.   The shop here has a French Inca table saw but we can't swing a 3/4" bit on it.  So it's a dado set in there and I'ld like to know how you tapered that rudderblade of yors on the saw, yessir..   Now I can see propping the blade in a jig and sending it thru a belt sander a whole lot of times to get that taper.  Very flat blade, for sure, would be the result.

How did you make the blade?  With three 'planks' of plywood, as if they were mahogany?  Thru drilled and all?  That'ld be cool,  you'ld have very little swelling or shrinking of the rudderblade.

Rod or allthread would have been a lot cheaper and easier to custom because you got both ends to work.  And it's very easy to thread.  You would have to go to a machine shop to tap holes.  It's the lining up of things that a m. shop does so well, and that what we pay for.

Very high end carpenters known as 'mechanics' would do it all in the boat shed.  And it is my visual experience that it is all in the jigs you make for the job.

As for flat plates versus rod/bolts.   If the blade was tied together with frp, the plates welded off the shaft would not have to be very long.   If the rudder was made of two fullsize pieces I can see the flat welded on pieces being short and a bit longer in the middle.  They could have lightening holes drilled in them too.  You know, whatever.

I have wondered if it's 'legal' to wrap the shaft with glass too?  Go all the way round from one side t'other.  Thats my plan.   655 takes epoxy well and it don't mind being covered,  it ain't gonna corrode.  The original rudder looks very elegant to me compared to all this plywood, glass and goop.

Make sure Alaska is selling you 655 silicon bronze.   This is the legentary Everdur.   It can be WELDED MIG.

Ebb,
From what I have gathered in my reading of rudder hydrodynamics, the reason for the doing away with feathering and keeping a flat blade would be to prevent the blade from stalling when turning. A feathered blade shape when turned at an angle would induce the fluid to create a vortex on the low pressure side of the blade, thus causing the blade to stall and the boat won't turn. If the boat were always moving in a straight line the ideal blade shape would taper off in an infinitely small edge to have the least amount of drag. I'm sure this is a very oversimplified understanding as there are a lot of variables involved, but makes sense to me.
Here is the spec sheet of the Silicon Bronze I got a quote for at Alaskan Metals it is a PDF, hope that comes across. I also included the spec sheet for Aluminum-Nickel Bronze which seems like another possible choice due to its strength and lack of zinc, but I have not seen much discussed here.

Tim,
Take your word on modern rudder design.   The flat I'm refering to is the extreme back trailing edge (does not come to a knife edge), which should be flat and both its edges sharp.  That is: this flat edge is more or less 90 degrees to the 'flat' of the rudder sides.  It is only about 1/4" wide.  You could only get this edge using modern composite materials.  

The blade itself, the 'flat' part should have a chord to it, exactly the same each side.   But what that chord is when upgrading traditionally flat, actually flat sided original factory Pearson rudders is open for discussion.   Maybe it's not open to discussion.


Watch it with Alaska.  
I personally advise Everdur 655 silicon bronze ONLY.
655 is the number.  The correct number says it all.
Silicon bronze is a commonly available REAL bronze.  Most available off-the-shelf screws, bolts, rod, bar, allthread, nuts, washers - if they say silicon bronze - are probably made from alloys close to 655.  Not to aluminum nickle bronze, mango bronze, or petunia bronze.
There's nothing wrong with Monel if you're rich.  Monel has no aluminum in it, last time I looked.

Not recomending anything, just saying what I did and why.
When ordering rod and bar you have to order by number - and sometimes by hardness.

Everdur 655 is the rolls royce of silicon bronzes, it is a specific controlled formula.   We're really lucky to have it and regular silicon bronze availabe to us serfs.   All the best wood boats of the past are fastened with it.   To me it represents aromatic pipe tobacco, cuban cigars, scotch, leather, oakum, served rigging, highend varnished carpentry, and money.  So it's prejudice on my part.  And I don't smoke.  I still think it is the best material, after much discussion here, for the rudder system on the A/C.   Each to his own!!! :eek:

ok...a pictoral with commentary:

First, my representation of plywood as seen from the end-grain side.

next, put the widest set of dado blades into your tablesaw.
the one at the woodshop i go to is just shy of 3/4"
you also need a "carriage" for it.  This is like a wide, shallow, open top box that has the correct hardware to slide in the grooves of the tablesaw.

This will allow you to prop up one edge of the plywood.  you want to prop up the end that will be the thick part of the taper.
The black line in my drawing is the like the top of the carriage, or alternatively, the top of the tablesaw.
The red line is the cut line.
I should have put an arrow to tell the story better, but the plywood, the block propping up the edge, all move relative to the blade.

Now, this basically puts a groove only as wide as the dado, so shift the plywood ~1/2 inch into or out of the page, and run it though again.  Repeat many times.  Many many many times.  Figure for a 48" long board, 1/2" at a time, with a few thrown in for giggles, ~100 passes.  But really, once my jig was set up, ~10 minutes for the whole 24"x48" piece of plywood.

Now make two of these (you need will want to sandwich them together).

now you have one of these:

so, take this piece of plywood and cut out the profile of the rudder:

The shaded portion is the part you keep.

So, now put some bolt holes in....well half of each hole:
Use an appropriate sized cove bit (shown), and put a cove into each of the two halves.  how you line up the two cuts is up to you.  i made a few jigs to handle it.  and lots of marks on each half to line everything up.

then you put the two halves together, and voile, perfectly lined up bolt-holes, down the centerline of the rudder.

ok, so there you have my method.

a few more points on the table saw method:


propping up one end works well, until you have make a number of cuts, like ~1/3 of the length.  you can tell that the right side of my diagram has support before the cut, and the height of the thing you prop it with says the same after you make the cut, because the right side really doesn't get cut.

but the left side of my diagram needs to be propped after it is cut, because it isn't setting on the table saw anymore.  So this is easy, just make sure to support the thin part of the board after you have cut it.

If more diagrams are necessary, just let me know.....

All -

Thanks for this thread, am learning much. :)

Thanks Capt mrgnstrm,
Tahell with theory - this is the real stuff!  Thanks from all of us.    Methods and methodology forever!

And with plywood one would not use a beltsander to shape a completed plywood rudder (as I wrote earlier :o ) because you want to keep the veneers intact.  With mrngster's method the carved sides are the ones that are glued together face to face keeping the full veneers on the outside, making for a stronger unit.

Now I would like to see recorded here for prosterity a series of photos showing  this alternative rudder being assembled.   A series like this does not exist anywhere on the web or in a book that I know about.

And as folks who have not done it befor will say, there is nothing obvious about the steps or the process.

The tapering of the panels can also be done simularly with a router (from the top) - messier than the table saw method.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
The conundrum:

  I believe a blade built in modern times should have some foil shape,  more wing shape,  some live curve to the surfaces, any opinions?  Any naval architects in the crowd?   Tried to explain earlier:  when you start at the shaft fatter than the shaft with the wood - and bring that same dimension you started with further aft and then gently curve the sides to the tip of the blade - you'ld have a stronger rudder with longer bolts if desired.  More wood.  

And if curved correctly the rudder would then be able to generate lift.  Rather than providing resistance when changing course and kind of slewing the boat around.  IE, the curved blade uses both sides continuously to do its work - and the slab sided blade gets the boat to change course by sticking the wood out to halt that side , while the free side gets to continue on round.

Putting it bluntly:  
Really wondering if adding a recognized modern chord shape to our rudder surface would get the A/Cs to sail any better, faster, or more responsive.  Or should the blade be left dead slab flat as it came from Pearson?  Or should it be the mrgnster taper??? :p

kp,
Great technique! Far less dust that using a belt sander and very accurate.

Quote from: mrgnstrnbut the left side of my diagram needs to be propped after it is cut, because it isn't setting on the table saw anymore.  So this is easy, just make sure to support the thin part of the board after you have cut it.

I suppose some long strips as thick as the height of the dado blade double stickied to the table would be a good prop.
What will you use to glue to two sides together, epoxy or something like resorcinol?
Tim

Just thought i'd get in here~~
Several subjects to cover, first off i gotta brag about going sailing this weekend!! Starting the season early, as it's looking like there won't be enuf water this summer to make spit, let alone float my boat. Pretty dry winter here in Oregon. So had a chance to go, weather was nice, had a bit of wind, so off we went. Awesome!

So on this rudder shaping/chord/lift making idea...which i think we covered somewhere before we had more experts come aboard....

I've heard it said the keel generates lift, by it's shape (chord?) like an airplane wing, or a sail.  And possibly the rudder can be made to be a continuation of that shape, but i don't see how. My keel goes pretty straight back there. Of course it's been rebuilt, but i just continued the lines on back. Sure it tapers down at the rear, but not much. I don't see how making it with a chord will improve anything. A clean bottom, flush fittings, and no outboard hanging in the water to create drag and added weight in the stern will do so much more to improve performance than a wing shaped rudder. I can maintain steerage with my boat down to a snail crawl, and she coasts along forever. Anyway, just doing a little rambling here on what i think is more important. And i'm still struggling with the keel shape generating lift. I don't see how, with both sides being shaped the same!! On a wing or sail, you have the chord side, and the other flatter side, creating difference in pressure/air speed? I just can't see that on our keel. Yeah, it's nicely shaped to slice through the water, but lift? Come on someone, please explain!

On carving a new rudder, which i'll be doing when my rubber coverd mahogany finally gives out--or maybe the shaft will first--think i'll just use my stihl chainsaw. lol
Actually, here's a little work i did for a bit of nautical theme in the kitchen over the winter. Well, i did cheat and use a makita grinder w/sanding disc for the finish shape. Was going for an Airel  when we started, ended up with something like a ketch!

Ya'll keep rebuilding, i'm going sailing! Thar is light at the end.... ;)

Tim:
Yes, thin strips stacked up as high as the dado blade is set would support the cut part of the plywood.
I found that 1/8" thick hardboard work wonderfully.   Hard board is the same stuff as brown pegboard, but without the pegholes.  And 1/8" is pretty good for most adjustments.  after that 1/16" thick aluminum flat bar works well for any finer adjustment than that.

I used West epoxy to glue the two faces that I had cut together (cut face to cut face) so as to leave the unblemished faces outward.  (of course, I went ahead and blemished the faces by putting 8 bronze screws on one of the faces to pull the two faces together enough for me to tighten down the machine screws/bolts and nut.  oh well....)

Ebb:
Well, funny story about pictures of the process....there aren't any.
it was last saturday when my wife took my 1-year old son to a friend's house for a few hours (read: no parental responsibilities for a while, uniterupted).  so there I am, outside on the back porch, preparing to mix epoxy, getting the vaccum bag ready, etc. and I thought to my self, "I should really take pictures".  Then I saw the storm clouds moving.  Well, I made a cursory round through the house looking for the camera, to no avail.  But, it was now or never, so mixing epoxy and spreading and glueing took place before pictures.  Luckily I got the epoxy down, the faces together, shaft on and tightened up, the vacuum bag over the whole thing and vacuum pump on before it started sprinkling.

by the way, vacuum bagging is hard.  especially in the (relative) cold, raining, and really your first time doing it, and on a large piece.   But, eventually i got everything sealed, but it took some liberal application of silicone caulking around the edge of the bag.  in the rain.

lastly, on the profile of the rudder, if you look at the rudder as a flap on the end of a section, really it is mostly just tapered, and mostly straight sides.  Like look at a NACA section, and imagine the front of the keel is the front of the section, the really extreme aft end has an almost inperceptible curvature to it.
If the rudder wasn't hung on the end of the keel, like for instance, a spade rudder, or a shorter immovable portion, like a skeg hung rudder, there would be a more perceptible curvature.

I browsed through Skene's Elements of Yacht design, and their example boat "Pipe Dream" is a cutaway forefoot keeled boat.  The lines drawing in the book shows a taper, and again the inperceptible carvature of a faired in line.

as far as the extreme edge treament and eddies:  I think that the overall aspect ratio of the rudder has much more to do with that.
I think that wheather the trailing edge comes to a fine edge or is squared off and 1/4" think has such an inperceptible difference that I don't think one would ever notice the difference.  I plan on just using my orbital sander to round it over enough to allow for fiberglass cloth to lay on it and leave it at that.

I'm tossing in my chips that tapering the rudder won't make *that* much of a difference. Here's why:

A NACA foil of the proper shape for our boats will have it's maximum thickness at a point about 12% aft of the leading edge. The percentage is based on the chord length of the foil. NACA/NASA came up with a number of different shapes for different foils which serve different purposes. The actual overall shape of the foil is based on the speed at which the foil moves through liquid medium - air for a plane, water for boats. So we would want the NACA foil which was designed for 6 mph, more or less (I forget which specific foil # NACA gave this one).

If that is the shape of our keels foil overall, then the shape of the trailing edge - be it flat or tapered - will have little to do with how well the foil works. However, a tapered shape *is* more hydrodynamically slippery, and would work to take away drag caused by an over-wide trailing edge (and its resultant vortices).

Blah blah blah ;), at any rate, I think we are probably talking in hundredths of a knot/mph difference in the speed gain. I'd say at *absolute most*, a sweet taper would give a 1/10th of a knot, but I seriously doubt it would be that much. I'd bet that a properly steered boat with no taper would outrun a boat not steered very well which had the perfectest of tapers. :)

Our rudders don't need a foil shape, either, because they sit right behind the deadwood of the keel, and their rounded bar front edge probably works as well as any other shape to help bring water off of the keel and over the rudders surface. Our rudders are like flaps on an airplanes main wing trailing edge, where a rudder hung by itself (yuk) would be more like the airplanes tail surfaces, and thus needs its own foil.

Last thing - a symmetric keel/foil develops lift when the Angle of Attack makes the water striking it hit more on one side than the other. Angle of Attack is the difference between where the chord of the keel (straight line front to back, through the middle) is pointing, and the direction the keel is moving through the water. If your angle of attack becomes too large for your foil, instead of producing lift, it begins to stall and lose power (with resultant leeway), just like when you oversheet your sails.

PS - I don't mean to come off as a know-it-all. :) Because I *don't* know it all. :D Here's how I learned some of this: Smaller Com-Pacs (23' and down) come with a transom-hung rudder made from a flat sheet of aluminum - no taper, just some very slightly rounded corners, enough to keep the metal from cutting you. Some individuals had made foiled replacement rudders, and claimed they improved windward performance. Well, with a CP, anything you can do to improve windward performance is a Good Thing, so I set down and larned myself all about foils and all that, and started producing a design which CP owners could retrofit to their flat rudders. Luckily, just as I was finishing up the design process, Joel at IdaSailor stepped in and volunteered to help. Now CP sailors can buy a proper rudder from Joel. :) Some of my knowledge of aerodynamics also comes from being an aviation buff.

yeah, Epiphany's right......there are more-better things to do to improve hydrodynamics.....like keeping a clean bottom, or going with baltoplate or something, taking the outboard out of the water when sailing, buying a feathering prop, etc etc etc.

heck, about the only thing I do for hydrodynamics sake is untie my docklines when I want to go out, so as not to drag the dock in the water behind me.

well....that is WHEN I do go out....or IF i do go out  (ok, so i am a little jealous of Willie.)

A tenth of  a knot, eh? . .  Well now, that's worth trying.  Could equal many boat lengths at the finish of a race . . .

LOL - Bill, I knew you would say that. :)

I really don't think you'd see near that much of an increase. Probably it would be more like a couple 1/100ths. (Which might still be a boat or so... ;):D )

One design racing is soo competitive that if something will add to boat speed, no matter how slight, it's worth adopting.  Hell, a 1/100 of knot would be worth it.   :D

This photo posted on page 6 of Ebb's photo gallery.  The design is taken from Alberg's lines drawing of the Ariel/Commander hull.  It was likely added at one of the later drawing modification dates.  

The rudder shape is similar to what is seen in mid 1960's and later heavy displacement designs.  My guess is that it is more efficient and has less drag, but is not a pretty  ;)

Hmmm... sounds like we need some more scientific way of proving this theory. Perhaps the association should sponsor a grant for me to make 2 (or more?) rudders. One perfectly flat, another with a certain taper. Observations will be made in various conditions i.e. wind speed, points of sailing, etc. Someone nuetral on the topic will verify the data and ensure the data taker(s) are reasonably sober. Thoughts???

Plywood too thin and the can too large.

Can see by quick History search we all had this words befor.
Yam gonna chord mah rudder,  keeping it passably strate offen the keel awhile, not too much,  and kinda fe e e el that mother in  nice slow curves to the tip.  No big letter chords, just pure technigue!  This konsellation-style rudder lends itsel to shapely turns top to  bottom.

There be no flat surfaces on ANY creature in the sea.

Y'all have in the A/C bottom the nicest curves there on any boat what has ever floated on water,  it's almost criminal how animal that underwater shape IS.  Personally can't abide that ear shaped appendage, jist naturally lean to that tip of a fin that wags there.  Carl put that finny rudder on all subsequent designs of his, I believe.  I know, I know, have to watch these emotions.

From the peanut gallery: during my time spent on the ComPac site, when I was thinking I would be happy with a trailer sailer like the CP16 perhaps, one of the mods for this boat which reportedly had fantastic results, was changing from the stock aluminum flat rudder to a fiberglass rudder with a foiled shape: less vibration and more responsive tiller were some of the improvements reported.

A BIG difference I suppose is that the CP16 is not full keeled and has a detached rudder...

Someone asked for an expert opinion on rudders.  Ted Brewer, well known yacht designer, wrote an article on rudders for the Sept/Oct 2002 edition of Good Old Boat magazine.*  Here is what he had to say about keel-hung rudders, amongst other things.

"Many older boats, such as the Folkboats, Albergs . . .and similar classics are full-keel designs with the rudder hung on the aft end of the keel.  Keel-hung rudders are traditional and can be one of two types: outboard rudders, with the rudder mounted on the transom or on the stern of a double-ender, or inboard rudders, with the rudder stock emerging through a rudder port in the hull.  The latter is more efficient when the boat is well heeled and the rudder is put hard over as it is less likely to ventilate (suck air down the low-pressure side) and so lose lift and steering ability.

The difference in the two types is not critical to the average cruising skipper though, and thousands of outboard-rudder yachts have made long and successful voyages . . .

The profile of older-style, keel-hung rudders was generally almost a half-circle on the trailing edge, or shaped like half a heart.  Tank testing in the late 1950's and early 1960's showed that the better shape was to have the rudder squared off at the bottom, parallel to the waterline." [Karl's added rudder in the lines drawing fits the picture.]

"As well, the top of the inboard rudder should be carried very close to the hull so the gap between the rudder and the hull is as small as possible.  Less than a quarter-inch is desirable, and the thickness of a well-worn dime is better yet.  Tests have shown that a gap of even a half-inch can reduce rudder efficiency by almost 10 percent due to ventilation.  It will also increase resistance by several percent due to crossflow across the top of the rudder from the high- to the low-pressure side."

Ted then goes into a discussion of spade rudders that includes foil thickness based on NACA calculations.  In explaining the popularity of spade rudders, he writes, "The spade gives the best combination of minimal drag combined with maximum lift and turning moment for its area."

[*Brewer, Ted, Rudders, skegs, and spades . . ., Good Old Boat 26, vol. 5, no. 5, September/October, 2002, pp 22-25]

Interesting.

I wonder how you would fill the gap between the top of the rudder and the hull (and still be able to lift the rudder out if needed).

Something like rubber weatherstripping perhaps.

I plan on using something sacrificial, like "good stuff" foam, shaped to the right size and clearance, then covered with a layer of F/G.
Or a strip of balsa wood.

crazy ole ebb, he will have the top of the rudder flat (spelt p h l a t, not rounded) and have there a piece of wood like teak that is screwed in from the top - by swinging the rudder to one side and using a short driver or the small rightangle 12v.

And the top of the fairing piece on top of the rudder is also flat,  exactly matching the V-SHAPE on the boat that is over top of the rudder.  If you want to get technical.

The two holes thru the filler piece are oversize but countersunk so no threads of the  screws engage it, just the flat heads.  Top of rudder is drilt proper for screws.  IMCO this is a fairing piece not requiring an act of congress to hold it on.  IMCCO you want it not sacrificial, but rubber might be good, if you plan on going aground.   Talk this out.

I would use bedding compound, NOT POLY.  This filler/fairing piece will keep the rudder from coming out of the shoe until the rudder is put way over.  You have to be able to lift the rudder out of the shoe to pull maintenance.  And to put it back in again.  So you don't want anything permanent on the top.  When messing around with the rudder it would be more convenient to take the fairing piece off until work is finished.

Embedding a pair of C'pete's barrelnuts in the top of the rudder with corresponding machine screws holding the fairing piece on would be too high end for an Ariel.


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See cleats like those on your rudder on Tritons that come into the yard.  Seems to me if you are looking for super hydrodynamic flowsure patterning why in hell put the cleats on cattywonkus?  Those bars should be horizontal, somewhat closer to the stream of water passing over the hull.   If two aren't enuf, put on three, or four, but on a waterline.   Picky picky, sorry :rolleyes:

Some might consider gluing on some hypolon flaps off the keel that would overlap the rudder, because that round rudder shaft there behind that squared off keel is creating vortexes that are slowing you down, too. :D

Well, what about when you have a little bit of rudder angle?  BAM!  gap up on top again.  Put a big ol' 'bump' on the bottm of the hull around the rudder tube that is flat on the bottom so the top of the rudder and the hull never wander away from each other?  Trim the sails so the rudder remains dead center?  Never look at the knot meter, instead focus on forming tan lines? (imagine CPete'esque photo attched here) :cool:

Good point there Tony. We'll leave it to the engineers. You should go sailing with Willie.

I'm gonna keep riding my old rudder until it decides to fall off.

The original shape certainly does work.  I've never had the boat do an uncontrolled round-up no matter how far she heeled over.

Quote from: commanderpeteI'm gonna keep riding my old rudder until it decides to fall off.

Besides, if you did change the shape you would need a new PHRF certificate  :p

That damn rudder is probably preventing me from bringing home the silver.

One time the Commitee Boat didn't even wait for me to finish. They just pulled anchor, went home and gave me a DNF.

The Indignity!

Commanderpete,
Here is a rudder design that might give you that winning edge.. :D

That would just be WRONG.

Proceed with construction (but paint 'em black).

Commanderpete,
Of course I was just joking, that would be HIGHLY unethical!

But hypothetically speaking you would of course want the 20hp submersible electicric motors with hidden batteries in the keel? :D

Commanderpete,
Here's another subtle mod that could be done for a little extra speed :D

I think that the rudder mounted motors probably would not be large enough to provide the thrust needed to dominate the SF Bay Fleet, as Bill clearly intends to do. Therefore, I propose this:

(http://liquid-epiphany.com/images/photoalbum/4/ariel_jet.jpg)

You'll note that it uses the engine from the Virgin Atlantic Global Flyer. I figure that that will be up for sale on eBay in another few days, and would be more economical to purchase than a new powerplant.

It may do better mounted on the centerline for cruising. This configuration is obviously intended to round marks to port only.

Waterski rudder

Here are some pics of my new rudder coming together. All the bronze parts were made from siicon bronze, rods were threaded directly into the shaft. I will use my leftover 3/8 rod for rivets for shoe and strap similar to original design. Rudder shape is close to original with a little more area down low like a constellation.

New rudder looks great Tim.  Did you glue the pieces together?  We are building a new rudder to match the original on Cup O Tea (Commander 290).  There is no evidence of glue between the mahogany pieces on my original.  Ebb has suggested somewhere that resorcinal glue is the way to go and I have it on backorder from Jamestown.  My carpenter pal is tired of waiting for the backorder and wants to use a System 3 product (TAG?) But - the more I think about it -  I remember someone here saying that the 1/16 spaces between the pieces in their rudder filled in when the wood swelled after being in the water.  If the wood is bolted and screwed to the tiller shaft and has drift pins through it, and the pieces are glued together with 7000 lb psi glue - where is the give going to happen when the wood swells?

A friend who restores classic wooden Chris Crafts says they use 5200 exclusively between the boards.  Stays flexible and gives a more natural ride.  Does anyone think it makes sense to use the equivalent of 1/16 or 1/32 of 5200 between the slats to allow for swelling?   And will 5200 hold up over time?

If "nothing" lasted 40 years . . .

Years ago I filled the gaps on my old replacement rudder. Might have used 5200, can't remember for sure.

I think it was a bad idea, the wood just swelled and made a larger gap.

I'd leave it open. Maybe a 3/16 gap with 3 boards. Possibly a larger gap with 2 big boards.

There might even be a chart somewhere that calculates how much wood swells

Nice work there Tim. How did you machine the ends of the rudder shaft?

That right. The traditional rudder need not be improved on in terms of method.  Wouldn't you think the planks were just bedded  in the old way of marrying metal and wood?  If the boat is going to spend time out of the water regularly that's the way I'ld do it because you can maintain it.

If a blade put together with rubber dries out it may pull apart in a way that won't be easy to clean up.  May wish you had put it together with a bedding compound you could just reef out and fill in again.

Polysulfide likes being underwater and is a longer lasting material than 5200.  5200 is so tenacious an adhesive that when a rudder dries out it is possible that the planks could crack or pull slivers of wood away at the seams.  Polysulfide I believe is not as hard when cured and would be more likely to move with  wood shrinkage.  

So I agree with the method that leaves a seam for swelling.  Seams payed with old fashioned bedding compound in a newly made plank rudder.   When the boat is pulled next season for bottom paint, the squeeze out from the seams can be scraped off smooth, the rudder painted, and put back in.   If the boat lives in the water, it'll remain tight.

This way you won't have to guess perfect how much to leave for the wood to swell.  Fill it and scrape off the excess later.   Mike may have something to say about priming the mating surfaces (the edges) with something.   I might stabilize them with thinned epoxy

I guess the real problem is how to resist cinching up the long bolts too tight.  One way to help keep the seams filled might be to plane the edges slightly concave.  Tend to keep whatever you decide on in there.  And thinned epoxy IMCO would be a great primer for the whole rudder.   Befor assembly slather it on every piece all over and soak the holes. :cool:

There was a real big gap once I cleaned it up and dug out the sealant.

Couldn't tighten it. Ended up cutting the drift pins and pounding them out

Project continues...next year....maybe

Yes, I did glue the two pieces of my rudder together using system 3 epoxy. This was probably not necessary from a structural aspect, but I thought it would distribute any loads on the end of the rudder a little better. I will not use any glue on the bronze through bolts, so the wood should be free to expand outward. The expansion will not likely be significant since mahogany is so dense, so it will just tighten down on the nuts. I will will just tighten the nuts to snug to allow room for expansion. I think I will use some 5200 to seal the rudder shaft in its joint with the rudder. I am still contemplating glassing the whole works, not really concerned about keeping water out so much as getting a bit stiffer and a nicer trailing edge.
The holes in the shaft were bored and threaded with a vertical mill. The hardest part was keeping them all exactly in line all along the shaft as the mill table only had about 20" of travel and the holes are spread about 36" apart. We bottom tapped the holes about 5/8" into the shaft, and I think this will make a much stronger unit than the original. The straight shaft should distribute the stress all along the length instead of at the weakest point where the topmost bolt comes through. Looking at my old shaft its easy to see why it broke. There was very little stucture after the through hole and huge countersink. I also saw alot of evidence of leaching of the rudder shaft at that point where the through bolt was totally intact. This confirms my suspicion that the shaft was probably naval (brass) and the through bolts were likely sil bronze. So my rudder has all sil bronze, most of it all from the same source (the nuts on my through bolts were made with leftover pieces of the ruddershaft), so hopefully I will eliminate most of the galvanic issues.

Tim, Nice.  Like the way you matched the grain.  I think it was Theis who put a rudder together similarly.   I worried about the rudder trying to relieve swelling stress by cupping - he said it didn't happen.   Maybe the shape of a traditional rudder has something to do with that.

Congrats on getting the long holes drilled square!  Hard, very hard.  And  end tapping the rods into the shaft is by far the very best method, elegant!  That rudder looks great! :D

Thanks for the feedback and photos gents.  We've been wondering about two pieces pieces in favor of the original three and it looks like we're in good company.  I'm wondering if the three pieces had some distribution or flex function.  

My carpenter pal likes to make things TIGHT so it will be a bit of a challenge to get him to just "tighten to snug".  I notice on Tim and Pete's rudders that y'all have skipped the stainless peened straps on the outside.  The original positioning is so weird (out of flow) but the original sure held together for a few years.  

Scott

Have seen Triton rudders with the strengthening straps a right angles to the rudder boards.  Could make them a little longer and turn them to the waterlines.  Wonder why they put them on that way?  There's one landbound T. rudder down at the yard whose rudder planks have shrunk - the metal cleats did nothing to hold them together.   May have kept the rudder from bending, tho.   Was that ever a problem?   Maybe with a shrink and swell scenario the bolts loosen up inside and the added metal pieces were an attempted fix?

Shrink or swell the wood is going to do what it wants to.  A plank rudder oughta be made from that nice dense honduras mahogany to survive the strange environment it's being asked to live in!   Amazing, isn't it?

Gotta ask why Pearson didn't come up with a frp rudder for our frp boats?
Answer?  No closed cell balsa available those days. :rolleyes:

My original rudder that I removed did not have the big straps I have seen on other rudders. The only straps it had were two small bronze straps to secure the inboard prop filler piece. Whats funny is that just after pulling the boat out of the water I poked at them a little and they just fell right off. Not doing a whole lot anymore I guess!! My original rudder was also made from 3 pieces. Most of the bolts were screwed into the wood except the very top one which had a nut. The outer piece was held on with screws or pins (not sure yet as I haven't removed them) from the trailing edge. I think the reason for 3 piece design is probably easier to manufacture and reduces material costs. I will take some pics today of my old rudder and post them.
Drilling those hole was a tricky operation. I took lots of time adjusting squareness on a very good drill press. I also use a very good quality brad point drill bit to start the holes about 6" into the wood. I then finished the bore with a longer bit and hand drill. It was also very important for the holes to exactly match the orientation where the enter the wood from the shaft. Any inaccuracy here and the stress would crack the wood. I used a template made from a piece of nice straight 2x2 cedar and cut the 1" dia cove just like I would cut on the mahogany after drilling. I put the cedar on the shaft and trasferred all the centers of the rods onto the template and then used this template to mark my drill points on the mahogany. I was very careful with measurements and used a very accurate scale and square to mark the template. Remember measure a dozen or so times and cut once!
I don't think I will see a cupping problem as those 3/8 bronze rods are quite strong. Having 5 rods should distribute the stresses well across the rudder hopefully. We'll see how it worked next haulout!

Quote from: Tim61NMy original rudder was also made from 3 pieces. Most of the bolts were screwed into the wood except the very top one which had a nut. The outer piece was held on with screws or pins (not sure yet as I haven't removed them) from the trailing edge.

Yes, that's the Pearson original that has lasted only 40 years  :eek:   Manual has a complete description of it and r&r.

Well, we're going to pretty much duplicate the rudder we took off of Cup O Tea - straps, drift pins, bolts, wood screws (what a conglomeration!) and all - with the possible exception of going with 2 pieces.  We're using quarter sawn Hounduras mahogany opposite grain facing.  Still contemplating cauking between the slats - haven't decided on that yet.  We'll see how she holds up!  Thanks again for thoughts - will post pictures when we're done.

Scott

In leiu of starting yet another rudder thread I figured I'd hijack/borrow/resurect this thread.

Looking at other vessels, being of varied keel systems, why is our rudder so very small comparitively. I have seen quite a few boating in the yard most being transom hung, but all with notably more surface area then ours. Would the Ariel benefit from additional rudder surface area, maybe even bringing the rudder up the rear a little also (above the attachment point).

I think it has to do with the fact that the rudder it attached to the keel.   No part of the rudder is forward of the rudder shaft.


When it isn't, like a fin-keel boat with spade rudder, I think that there isn't enough lateral surface area back aft to provide lateral stability, so they have to add area back there.  They might add this area forward of the rudder shaft to balance the helm somewhat.

Just a guess.

I can say from experience that the Ariel tracks like its on rails, but my 35' C&C could probably turn a 180 *inside* the same turn by the Ariel. (it would be close)

Seen a fair number of keel-hung rudders (on chunky wooden cruisers) come thru the yard - and yer right, nearly all of them seem too small compared with the balanced and skeg  rudder.  Especially older boats with the ear-shaped rudder like on the A/Cs.

One reason may be that the force needed to turn a barn door rudder probably increases exponentially by fractions of inches, so they can't get much bigger than designed without getting impossible to turn.  Wouldn't mind hearing a partial dissertation on this subject.  Maybe a bigger rudder would be more efficient, it's that its size has to be compromised.

I'm surprised that the Ariel turns so sluggish, given its cutaway keel profile.  That's a good thing for tracking as you say.  it's like my Dodge truck compared with a Honda.  A little more sprightly turning and a tighter radius  would be better.  338 does intend to try out the constellation alternative of Alberg's on page 148 in the Manual.

imco, A rudder of either shape built modern with a slight arc to its sides and coming to a sharper trailing edge would make it more efficient - and one might expect it to liven up the steering, right? ;)

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Not going to convince the traditionalists on this forum who must imitate past methods when reviving their boats.  If the Ariel represents the great historical leap  forward from wood to plastic then why wasn't the rudder included? (well, you know me, I think Everett couldn't be bothered.)  The traditional A/C rudder is obviously better matched to a wood boat.  A composite rudder more suited to Ariel/Commander provenance HAS to be considered the correct upgrade.  It can't be argued if it makes for a better handling boat!  Underscored.  My deflector shields are up.

Check this out:
"The main difference between a 'thin flat plate' and a NACA foil is that the foil will generate lift, ie power, at a higher angle versus the boat's direction.  Where a plain flat rudder will stall and simply slow you down somewhere around  +/- 5 to 10 degrees from center, a NACA foil will be effective over maybe twice that range. Your boat's rudder will work better.  Tacking will be easier.  A little bit of weather helm translates into more sideways 'push' upwind." Craig O'Donnell
google >Foil FAQ<   //www.boat-links.com/foilfaq.html


A rudder creates drag evertime you move it.  I believe a foil shaped rudder would even help the keel create lift and not stall the asymetical heeled shape out, which seems to happen alot on one boat I know.

Hope to 'generate' not only lift but some discussion...

On haul out, the rudder looked pretty good. It was covered in the same slime that had built up over the rest of the hull;
 
(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10014/1Haul14Rudderscum.jpg)
 
The straps you see were added by the prior owner, Herb Tucker and appear to be holding up well. I did not remove them, but sanded them down, and they seemed to be in good shape. There is a split in the rudder along the seam where 2 planks were joined (I can see at least 5 bronze rods (pins?) that run through from the end.
 
The split had been filled with some kind of Calk on the last haul out, which seemed like a good compromise to me.
 
Here is the rudder after pressure wash;
 
(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10014/1Haul21Rudder2.jpg)
 
I sanded it, coated it with epoxy. I coated it with epoxy, faired it in and painted it.
 
Here is what it looks like now;
(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10014/1_2Haulout_0049.jpg)
 
I felt like the rudder was in pretty good shape. The straps that Herb added seem like a reasonable precaution to prevent the end of the rudder (beyond the seam) from sliding off.

Hi Gents - Hopefully there are pictures of my new quarter sawn Honduran mahogony rudder attached to this post.  For reasons previously discussed regarding wiggle room for wood expansion etc (and before reading Ebb's recommendation to make it out of one piece) - we opted to make the rudder out of two pieces.  Everything else including the bronze pins and bolt boxes was made to match the original - except for the two stainless straps that were peened on there - maybe at some point by PO to hold the old one together.

Now I'm wondering.  Should I just give the thing a couple of coats of penetrating epoxy and leave 'er be?  Should I bother putting some glass over the seam of the two pieces?

After loading my rudder photos on Ebb's Photo Gallery thread - I found this thread.

If anyone has advice on finishing this rudder and would be so kind as to go over to that thread and weigh in, I'd appreciate it.

I removed my rudder and it was in great shape so I was in a similar position that you are. After asking around I decided to leave it alone and just paint it with bottom paint. I considered CPES but decided against it after some credible people told me to leave it alone.
 
http://triton381.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2129&sid=c47c3f6eb7641b6a5b128aaf4b82de9c

(http://www.mrmert.com/ariel24/images/rudder/Rudder%20Profile%20Starboard.jpg)
 
(http://www.mrmert.com/ariel24/images/rudder/rudder%20removed%201.jpg)

I loaded up the wood with sealer(4 or 5 coats asI recall)put on bottom primrt and bottom paint.  Swatchesof the bottom paint have come off at years end, but the mshogany is stilll solid after about 10 years in fresh water(Emersion in fresh water is hrder on mahogany than in salt water, or so I understand.The wood should not be encased in glass because the woodwill rot in my opinion- particlarly if the vessel is hauled where it freezes

Theis, what did you use as the initial sealer?

Hmm,  If I messed it up, I meant to say that the OB model Ariel rudder can be made with a SINGLE piece of rod.  Since there is no cutout for a prop it is appropriate and much stronger than the two piece bend rod rudder that I understand ALL Ariels had on them.  OB Ariels had an insert/plug in the aperture.  Or some didn't.

The mahogany part of the rudder, the blade, if it is a traditional stack of planks, should not be a single piece of wood.  Although at least one on these pages is just that.  (Theiss' ?)  The reason is that woodworkers believe a single plank can absorb water and warp in relation to the log it was cut from.  Two boards stacked edge to edge are less likely.  And three planks even more unlikely to warp.  You reverse the grain when stacking.  If you have to have a wood rudder, noble mahogany is the best next to the king of woods, teak.  Because neither is known for warping much.

Whether you glue the planks together - or use a rubber adhesive - or merely use a bedding compound is still pretty much open for discussion, isn't it?  Whatever I did I would still seal all surfaces with thinned epoxy so that water absorbsion is equalized.  And it's a good primer for subsequent paint.  The rudder will swell some in the water (and shrink some when out of the water), so I would allow for that by not sweating the long thru-bolts/allthread fasteners - or you'll just be crushing wood fibers where you needn't.  And when dried out the planks will be loose.  Just snug on the nuts.

As I understand it, as long as you keep a wood rudder clean and painted nothing much is going to happen to it.  So it doesn't need to be encapsulated.
If you have an old rudder,  that's showing its age - then a quick fix and a new lease can be had with fiberglass and epoxy.

I went through the same discussion on what to seal my new rudder with.  Some of the guys said to use "Old Salem Sealer"; I did and it has done really well; I can keep an eye on the wood an fasteners; I don't even anti-foul it.
In fresh water we swim quite a bit and I just wipe it down with a sponge.

As I recall. it was the Interlux wood sealer available at West

Sorry for the misquote, ebb - must be the acetone.

Thanks for that thread link, Tim.  Very enlightening and recommended to members.   And a beautiful rudder.

So - I think I'll go with the epoxy prime coat (Awlgrip 545 or similar) and then bottom paint for the finish.  Forget about glassing it in for protection.

The remaining question is strength of the rudder blade at the seam between the two pieces.   Tim, your rudder looks like 3 pieces?  But it was encapsulated all this time so ostensibly the glass added strength.

I've got the three original drift pins in there and the the grain is reversed on the stacking of the two pieces - the seam is filled with bedding compound.

Don't know why I am so nervous about the strength - should I be??

It has been observed that a stand alone skeg or balanced rudder has enormous forces acting on it that a keel hung rudder doesn't experience.

Trying to remember,  but the rudders mentioned on this site don't talk much if at all about the wood falling off - it is about metal: the shoe has a number of issues, corrosion at the bolt connection of the planks to the shaft, the shaft corroding up in the tube,  the shaft wearing out the bearing at the tiller head.  The original rudder engineering seems to have done just fine for four decades.  Right?

The keel hung rudder is exactly where a rudder should be.  Protected, very  little stress on the blade, less force needed to steer.  Can't back the boat up so good. tho.

Kenarang Ebb Wrote:
"The original rudder engineering seems to have done just fine for four decades. Right?"
 
This is what I keep coming back to everytime I find something "weird" about my boat which occurs daily. Upon close inspection under the waterline I feel like my boat shouldn't float, but it did, for a long time now. My rudder was in remarkable shape having been encapsulated for so long (at least 32 years) and like I mentioned earlier, I am going to paint it and that's it. Rudders are like chains, the weakest part that gives can cause the entire thing to fail. If the mahogany and bronze components (shaft, etc) are in good shape I would think it's fine without modification.

The old rudder had the metal straps that other owners have mentioned but I'm inclined to agree that they were added afterwards - completely out of line with the water flow.

I'm going to prime that rudder up and bottom paint it and let 'er fly.  thanks.

Beautiful rudder there Cup. That mahogony is so nice, seems a shame to cover it up

Hi Guys,
 
I'm a new owner of Commander 164. Just bought her a month ago. I'm in the Miami area. The boat drifted from her mooring, went aground and half of the wooden rudder is gone. I'd like to know how feasable it would be to remove the rudder while she is in the water. I didn't see this issue addressed in any of the rudder threads. The top of the rudder post looks well above the waterline. It seems like the only issue would be to remove the tiller head and the gudgeon strap. It could take over a week or two to rebuild the rudder. Do you think this is doable in the water. Having her hauled and stored on land for 1 week here would cost $475 I could use that money toward the repair instead. What do you think? Am I overlooking something important?
 
Barry
Hollywood, FL

CONGRATS on 164!
Commander Fleet has to answer this one.

But how easy is it for you to get at the fastening(s) holding the strap around the rudder post?  Lots of bottom paint crud? What's the fastening head - hex, slot heads?  Will you be able to turn them?  How long can you stay under water?

If the vessel had recent work done on the rudder (so that the strap, if it is indeed still a strap there and not a DFO replacement) is free of decades of buildup) it could be feasible.  Got scuba?:rolleyes:

We love crazy schemes around here

How about this:

Run the boat aground in a good spot

Use a mask and snorkel with extension tube

Use a cheap air drill ($10 at Harbor Freight) Borrow a compressor.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94585

With a wire brush attachment, expose the screw heads

Drill the screws out

Tie a rope on the rudder

Back into deeper water and drop the rudder

Post pictures here

Of course, I've never tried anything like this

while we are on the subject of crazy schemes.. (this might work for both C-164 and Mr Tim's A-24)

what about sistering the current rudder with two plywood skins through bolted over the current rudder?  ... I'm thinking 1/4 inch marine plywood precut and painted before installation in the water....:rolleyes: It might work for a season or so..


I think this could be done in shallow water without removing the rudder.

Bill there are times I feel as though the Force guides us here on the forum.  I too am thinking of the old plywood sandwhich to get mine to work this summer.  I failed to mention in my post that the top shaft did get pulled out of the rudder cap with the force of the twisted rode and I couldn't dive down to ook for it as I was with my family and we were in about 20 feet of water.  I was thinking something on the line of (don't laugh and remember this needs to last only a couple months) a steel water pipe to drop down into or put up through the rudder tube then screw on a "T" fitting so that I can have the lateral piece to help spread the load of the rudder.  The lateral piece will act like the bronze piece bolted to the original shaft providing support.  Then I might sandwhich and through bolt as your diagram suggests to the rudder that is left.  This will certainly be a fair-weather sailing repair and I already know I can make it back to my mooring just by the motor in the well if it fails, but if it gets me to September and I get a few sails out of it I'm golden.  Plus it's a cheap simple repair and could be done in the grace period at low tide if I dry dock next to the club.  My future "new" rudder will have a shaft going all the way down and will be reinforced with FRP somehow so it's bulletproof.  I know the buoyancy needs to be as close to nuetral as possible, but my future rudder will be bulletproof possibly at that expence.  I still haven't worked out the details on the new one yet as I have this fall and winter to do so.

I'm sure you'll have a viable fix lined up soon... we'll want underwater photos of course:rolleyes: that should be a first on this forum!:)

oh by the way, you might want to look into that commander getting parted out... her rudder may also be a great option in the near term.

here are her sails.... http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SAILS...mZ250110199285, her logo plates have also found a home on the Lucky Dawg... http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?p=15764#post15764

Quote from: bill@ariel231;15792I'm sure you'll have a viable fix lined up soon... we'll want underwater photos of course:rolleyes: that should be a first on this forum!:)

Underwater pictures huh?  How about a bunch taken after she's sitting in the mud at low tide?  Besides, have I ever dissapointed in the picture category.:)
 
Next week is when the festivities will happen if all goes as planned.  I have a basic plan in my head right now, but it will not be until I get a real good look that I can proceed.  The river we keep the boat in has quite a current, so I may not be able to dive except on the slack tide.  If I can't dive, then I have to wait until she's sitting on themud.  This may very well be a two tide job.  We'll see.  Stay tuned.

We need some pix of the rudder being extracted when yer beached - or mudded as the case may be.  Bring a shovel.


Rudder neutral buoyancy?  
338's 'straight' 1" bronze post and some pieces of 1/8" bar stock (instead of  allthread rod and nuts) weigh in  (just the metal) at 21#.  Wood floats, and would minus some weight if you were going with a stack of planks on a traditional rebuild.  On the other hand, I would guess the foam and fiberglass  I'm using will probably add to the overall weight.  To be honest.

How do you weigh an immersed rudder?  Might be good to know.

Thing is, neutral buoyancy isn't really possible if you're going to use 6' of 1" bronze rod for your rudder post!  Or have I got it wrong?

How did Carl Alberg figure it?

Thanks for the replies, guys. Since I don't have a manuel yet, everyones posts on the rudder threads gave me all the information I needed. Got my rudder off today at anchor. Went at it with a mask and snorkel and a 7/16 open end wrench tied around my neck with some twine and a vice grip.The bronze strap holding the rudder shaft to the keel was attached with 2 stainless steel bolts with 7/16" nuts. They came off easily as did the tiller head. I appreciate someones comment about opening the slot on the tillerhead by banging in a large screwdriver. Worked for me and came off with just a little prying.
Oh yea, of course I tied the rudder with line, then I yanked the tiller up as far as it could go, went back down, pushed the rudder shaft off of the shoe came back to the cockpit and removed the tillerhead then dropped the rudder.
Anyone need half a rudder?
 
Barry

Quote from: ebb;15797We need some pix of the rudder being extracted when yer beached

Oh don't you worry about that. I just hope you guys aren't working off of dial-up.:)
 
 

Quote from: ebb;15797Rudder neutral buoyancy?.

As I understand it the shaft should not be taken into account when figuring the density which in turn determines the buoyancy of the rudder as it acts as a pivot point and rests in the shoe, therefore it's weight is insignificant. The blade of the rudder however is allowed to move side to side and can do so either by sinking or floating, but the shaft cannot.
I have read that a well constructed rudder should have the same density as the water it is in. If the rudder is more dense than the water it is in and you are healing 10 degrees lets say, the rudder will have a tendancy to want to sink. This can affect the feel in the tiller and possibly the handling of the boat. There is of course a force against the rudder as the boat is moving through the water which could negate the sinking rudder, but on a light day I think it may be noticable and I see the logic in the argument even if it is a negligible amount of pressure caused by it wanting to sink. If the rudder is less dense than water, then it will have a tendancy to want to float. In that case as you were traveling in the same situation mentioned earlier heeled over, you would be compensating against it's buoyancy. If however the rudder is the same density as the water it is in, then it should not sink or float, but stay where you put it. Of course this isn't taking into account weather-helm, etc. which could make this a moot point, but nontheless it seems like a good argument to me that a well balanced boat has a rudder with the same density as the water it is in even if it takes an America's Cup skipper to notice.
 

Quote from: ebb;15797How do you weigh an immersed rudder? Might be good to know.

You can get the density of the rudder through water displacement if rudder is removed and then find its mass by weighing it then converting. With the mass and volume you can get the density. Compare that to water which is about 1g/cc. More it sinks, less it floats. You would have to subtract the mass of the shaft, but include the "bar stock" that extends into the rudder which might make for a tricky situation. To get the mass of the just the shaft I supppose you could submerge just the shaft end of the rudder into a kiddie pool and measure the amount of overflow somehow and that would give you a pretty accurate volume reading. Then you could find the density of that particular bronze and simply multiply the volume with the ?g/cc to get the mass of the shaft. You could then subtract that from the overall mass of the rudder and shaft and that would give you the mass of the blade and bronze located within the blade.
 

Quote from: ebb;15797Thing is, neutral buoyancy isn't really possible if you're going to use 6' of 1" bronze rod for your rudder post! Or have I got it wrong?

I have a habit of being wrong more than right and I have no ego to harbor, so if I am wrong or my logic doesn't jive with others, someone chime in.
 

Quote from: ebb;15797How did Carl Alberg figure it?

Good question, but I know my Typhoon rudder is made of two pieces of plastic that foam was injected into, then the whole thing was covered in FRP. I wonder how much Alberg called for specific construction methods and materials to be used, and how much of that went to the wayside in the search for a cheaper product to produce by the manufacturer. Cape Dory infamously used regular steel backing plates welded to bent steel rebar for its chain plates on the CD-28. These backing plates have been the achiles heel of a world cruiser now that these boats have hung out in salt water environments for the past 20-35 years and have begun (or have) to disinigrate. I don't think Carl would have ordered that up, do you? Someone was looking to save a buck. My boat has no seacocks, surely a stubborn swede with an eye for seaworthiness would not have specified that.

Tim,
OK, basicly if you disregard the weight of the rudder post,  it could be figured that in the traditionally designed Alberg rudder of wood, a couple long bolts and a few screws... you have a neutral buoyant rudder there.  Wood floats, add some metal and you got neutral.  By definition.

On the Foss Foam rudder site they suggest that if you have a n.b. rudder it would be a breeze to remove it in the water.   This is where my understanding breaks down - it seems you'd have to leave the rudder post in place for that benefit.  I would guess the preponderance of Foss Foam rudders are spade in shape and not keel attached.  They have a short ss pipe for the shaft with a couple short welded fins to keep the foam from turning inside the skin.  Maybe yer Cape has one of these?  Anyway the rudder unit in a modern foam design would be significantly lighter and perhaps easier to remove in water.  Remember though, they have to skimp on the plastic and glass which is 3 times heavier than wood and only displaces water.

An Ariel rudder could be removed that way, but its weight will be significant.

On the Foss site they say that a n.b. rudder would reduce "the moment of inertia in the stern."  But it would not, if traditional constructed, reduce the weight added to the stern by  metal.

Could somebody make an arguement FOR our original rudder in that its metalic weight creates some welcome inertia to ease steering?  Dampen steering movement?  Would a lighter rudder make for easier steering?  

With a thin blade and a 1" diameter bronze rudder shaft it isn't obvious how a lighter rudder could be fashioned.

Still, a neutral buoyancy rudder is a matter of function, not weight, and that kind of thing is what engineer's brains are made of.  (To me this urethane foam rudder is "compromise design."  The term neutral buoyancy is a quasitech term invented to sell questionable skin and foam and s.s. rudders to the consumer.:p )
Thanks for making it clearer.  IF I got it?;)

Good job on the rudder Barry.

Sounds like your rudder has been off before, since you found stainless bolts.

You guys who have taken the rudder off....how was the rudder strap held on?

My strap which had been on since at least 1974 making it most likely original was held on with two pins with a carraige bolt type head on one side and peened ends on the other. I knew that I was going to replace the strap as it was well worn and slightly corroded so I decided to take the destructive route and drill out peened ends until they could be tapped out. Removing the strap was easy once the pins were removed. Then I overdrilled the holes and allowed them to dry out for a while and gave healthy doses of acetone to speed the process up. Once it was completely dry I filled with epoxy, then redrilled the holes to accept the 1/4 bronze bolts I put in to hold the new strap.
 
More details here (http://www.ariel24.com/project_rudder.html).
 
 
 
(http://www.ariel24.com/images/rudder/rudder%20close%204.jpg)
 
(http://www.mrmert.com/ariel24/images/rudder/rudder%20strap%201.jpg)
 
 
The new strap fabricated from a 1/8 inch sheet of bronze provided by Ebb.
(http://www.mrmert.com/ariel24/images/rudder/rudder%20strap%206.jpg)
 
(http://www.mrmert.com/ariel24/images/rudder/rudder%20strap%209.jpg)
 
After the epoxy cured and I redrilled the holes, I set the strap in 5200. I used bronze carraige bolts and nuts from Jamestown  (http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/search.do?freeText=bronze%20carraige%20bolts&page=GRID&history=)to hold it in place.
(http://www.mrmert.com/ariel24/images/rudder/rudder%20strap%207.jpg)
 
(http://www.mrmert.com/ariel24/images/rudder/rudder%20strap%208.jpg)
 
Hopefully I will not have to remove the strap when I make my temporary rudder repair as I plan to sandwhich plywood to either side of what's remaining. This winter however, I will be removing the strap to remove what is left of the rudder and will start from scratch. The shoe will stay on as it is bedded in 5200 and I epoxed the bronze pins in place to ensure a watertight, strong bond as I only peened the ends of the pins on the shoe. I hope to fashion a new rudder to Albergs modified design and use a full length bronze shaft ($$$). I also want to make it so that it can be put on and removed without removing the shoe so that I can do repairs in the water. Right now the rudder cannot be lifted high enough to remove it without removing the shoe. This will require a nifty modification to the top of the rudder so that the shaft will clear the shoe, possibly a bolted on piece that is strong, but removable when desired to do so. I'm thinking of epoxying with cloth over marine plywood for the rudder construction, but I still have time to work those details out.
 
The Contessa 26 and the Flicka were also on my list when I was looking for a bigger boat earlier this year.  I always saw the value of the transom hung rudders in terms of simplicity and repair potential.  Our rudders are annoyingly less so, but hey, we have overhang and that is sweet!

imho The rudder shoe is a permanent fitting.  There should never be a reason to remove it.
The gudgeon is a maintenance fitting if it can be called that.  It is what is removed or merely bent out of the way to allow the rudder to be raised out of the shoe and removed.
The gudgeon's main use is to limit the rise of the rudder out of the shoe.
But it is possible to argue that if the gudgeon is substantial, it could allow the rudder to rise above the seat in the shoe.  That is it could allow the rudder to rise and still guide it right back down into the seat.

Arguements for this would be that there is more rise available in case of grounding.  Depends on what the top limit is.  Also if you were persuaded that a delrin  or some ultra HDPE washer between the bottom of the shaft and the shoe was an improvement, it could be slipped in and replaced easy. An arguement against is that you could get mud in yer shoe.

Depending on the galvanics of similar and different alloys present, there may be a need for zincs to be incorporated on longer bolts - and easily replaced.

Quote from: ebb;15803imho The rudder shoe is a permanent fitting. There should never be a reason to remove it.

I have only removed my rudder by removing the shoe, but I like the idea of being able to do so without removing the shoe.  How much would one have to bend the shaft in order to remove rudder if the shoe were to stay on.  Or is there enough play in the rudder tube to take it off without bending?
 

Quote from: ebb;15803Arguements for this would be that there is more rise available in case of grounding. Depends on what the top limit is.

These rudders I'm afraid are not setup well to a grounding as the tube itself travels into the hull at or just above the waterline.  If the rudder got punched into the bottom of the hull or if the lateral force was too great within the tube, the consequence could be the loss of steering, but also a hole in the hull where the tube is.  I think an upgrade like yours where you reinforce the tube with epoxy and cloth is a well thought out plan and I think should be standard protocol for anyone seriously cruising with an ariel.  The transom hung rudders on the other hand would allow the pintles to pop out of the gudgeon if the cotter pins holdng them in place were of lesser strength.  If the rudder was attached to the hull via a short cable, the rudder would still be attached to the boat, all mounting hardware would be intact and your rudder would still be with you.  Great setup for repair.  
 

Quote from: ebb;15803Depending on the galvanics of similar and different alloys present, there may be a need for zincs to be incorporated on longer bolts - and easily replaced.

I am going over this in my mind as I make a list of things to get for my replacement.  I found a 1" rod 6 feet long for $250 at onlinemetals.com (http://www.onlinemetals.com) .  It is silcon bronze, but I'm not sure if it would play well with the rudder shoe.  A zinc is certainly a possiblility for this new setup, but exact materials is ideal to prevent making a battery at the expense of an expensive piece of hardware.

Tim, The reason we don't have a bearing where the shaft enters the boat is to have room to move the rudder over to drop it once it's lifted out of the shoe. (And the TOP bearing removed.)  That seems to be the main reason.  There is plenty of room in that 1 1/2" tube (maybe its bigger, can't remember) for a 1" shaft to be skooched over.  But the gudgeon has to be removed or opened enough.
Couldn't bend the rudder but on 338 there was only glass and plastic around the hole the shaft goes in.  Take a rat tail to file it open enough to get it over.

Gudgeon.
Have to make it easy to un-nut the bolt and bend the 'U' open.
Or knock the bolts thru and drop the rudder with the gudgeon in place. til you get it away from the keel.  Imco I would not glue this fitting on but use bedding compound.   It doesn't need to be adheesed!  Doesn't do hardly any work.  It's a back-up.  Important back-up.

A tired Ariel came into the yard once that had no rudder shoe!:eek:   It was plain gone!  The rudder was hanging there and held in place with what looked like copper plumber's tape in the gudgeon position.  It went back in without getting fixed.  But this illustrates how important the gudgeon is.

Keel hung rudders that go into the boat have a generic problem with going aground and jamming the rudder up into the boat.  Somebody did just that here and posted.  Find it? Guess you have to live with this danger.  Can't know how extensive damage will be so it's not really possible to prepare for it.  I think the rudder looses, not the boat.

Silicon bronze is essentially inert in seawater.  It's 98% copper.  This doesn't  mean your rudder shoe is silicon.  Many bronzes like manganese are actually brass, they can have 40% zinc in them.  

Bristol Bronze once said that they supplied Pearson with these castings.  Manganese bronze underwater is bad news.  Who knows what bronze was actually used for the shoes in our A/C's.  
The shoe on 338 was heavily pitted on one side as if being eaten or leached away.  The eaten side was greyish, it may have been the alloyed zinc in the fitting leaving home.  
The rudder shaft was a refit s.s. propeller shaft that showed no corrosion at all.  Hard to know what that alloy was or whether it was responsible for the corrosion in the shoe.  Obviously the metal mix was BAD.
The zinc was threaded onto a longer bolt thru the shoe.  But was not up to the job.  Course you never know the whole story.

It is possible to get fancy and make a rudder blade with pvc foam (NOT urethane) and maybe design in a breakaway top or even a bottom breakawy piece that will leave the mid section of the blade usable in a dramatic grounding.

Quote from: ebb;15808Tim, The reason we don't have a bearing where the shaft enters the boat is to have room to move the rudder over to drop it once it's lifted out of the shoe. That seems to be the main reason. There is plenty of room in that 1 1/2" tube (maybe its bigger, can't remember) for a 1" shaft to be skooched over. But the gudgeon has to be removed or opened enough.

Makes perfect sense, thank you for clarifying that.  I must say I am a bit relieved, because the thought of removing the shoe after welding it on with 5200 and epoxy was a bit daunting.  
 

Quote from: ebb;15808Imco I would not glue this fitting on but use bedding compound. It doesn't need to be adheesed! Doesn't do hardly any work. It's a back-up. Important back-up.

Good point.  I used 5200 because I did the strap and shoe at the same time and had it on hand.  I think I'll use a polysulfide on the strap when I remount my new rudder this winter.

FYI: The summer issue of "Boatworks" magazine has a short article on fabrication of a transom mounted rudder using epoxy, redwood and carbon fiber. While the style of the rudder doesn't include a bronze shaft like ours, the choice of materials may be applicable...http://www.sailmag.com/boatworks/

One great idea I've seen - if I recall, from a singlehand race boat prep site -
is a rudder blade that you make up yourself out of foam and glass, whatever, rather like a surfboard -
that slips into a stainless steel rod cage you have hanging on your transom.
The cage, of course, doesn't have to live there, but that may not be a bad idea, it could hook on with gudgeons and pintles.  Or that as a unit of hinges and cassette could slip down some huge sail track like system permanently attached to the stern.
The idea was that if you suddenly needed the backup rudder you attach the cage without trailing the rudderblade which would make it impossible to attach  while hanging over the transom
- and then slip the blade in.

I would imagine the blade unit would have to be minimum 6 feet.  Probably more like 7 or 8 for a well-heeled Ariel.
I believe that rudder blade would be narrow, no more than a foot front to back, and not very thin, for beef.
This page had formulas for calculating torque forces  on such a rudder, plans and foil formulas.  Those forces would be huge, much more than the forces on a keel hung.

You'd have to split the backstay.
It could be that an offshore Ariel would not handle well with a faraft rudder.  Never know - has it been done?  It would take some spirited invention and development.  Both as a backup rudder and as a possible replacement for the original. And what would you do with the original, lock it into place?

Might have to move the mast.

There's an old 1980 vintage BOC transatlantic boat at my marina with this sort of setup. The box is on the centerline with a single back stay. I believe the setup used either a wishbone shaped tiller or control lines to get around the backstay. I'll tack on a picture of the mount when I get a chance....

even better... here's a link to the boat with the rudder installed:
http://www.nike4.com/

Quote from: ebb;15817You'd have to split the backstay.

Nimble 20's or 24's which I think are really cool boats have a mizzen mast that gets in the way of a tiller the way a backstay would on our boats.  They get around this by using a triangle shaped piece of hardware made out of stainless tubing that is attached to a fitting on the rudder and on the other end the tiller. It allows free movement side to side without hitting the mizzen. It's a neat idea and could imagine this setup working with an emergency tiller hung on the stern of our boat.
 
(http://www.sailingtexas.com/picnimble24ac.jpg)

Hi:

I"m interested if anybody has used oak as a material in the rudder.  A family friend is a boat builder and I asked him to build me a new rudder after mine recently ripped apart after catching on a lobster pot at speed.  He said we could use oak if the wider gaps in the planks over the winter don't bother me.  Growing up around wooden boats I know that oak was widely used on rudders here in Maine but I'm not entirely convinced.  

Also,  I read about taking the rudder off in the water and my brother is a diver who said he could do the job but he asked me to find out if an Ariel can be beached on its side and refloat without flooding through the sink or cockpit drains.   We were considering beaching her in the soft mud letting the side rest on a couple of large pieces of styrofoam.  Has anybody beached an Ariel before on its side?  We have a local wharf that has a tie up for beaching boats in the upright position but this time of the year it would be a pain in the but with all the tourists.  

Best,  

Ed

Ed

Yikes! I don't know if anyone has voluntarily done this on a flat surface. Mr. Tim (A-24) has talked about hauling out on a mud berth for his rudder repair.

I'd suggest thinking about finding a place to haul out that has some slope to it... Or... maybe drying out on with some jack stands or a cradle positioned in the water before the tide runs out. The attached cartoon shows some possible waterlines. It looks like the boat should recover just fine, but wave action may put water in the cockpit/icebox/lockers... (Are there any Naval Architects in the house??)

cheers, and good luck
Bill

Hi Ed,
 
I can weigh in with some personal experience as to laying the boat on it's side. I'm embarrassed to admit but one time that I went aground, the water level went down to about 1.5" at low tide. My boat was over the 45 degree angle as depicted in the above diagram. The water was over the toe rail almost to the coaming for hours. I was 100% sure that due to the heavy weight of the boat that as the tide came back, it would flood the boat before enough bouyancy was acheived to raise the boat off of it's side. I'm happy and amazed to report that this wasn't the case as the boat rose like an angel. Bless Carl Albergs design. BTW, it lay on the starboard side (galley side on my boat) and no water came in from the sink, but I did have some water in the bilge probably from the hull-deck joint being submerged for hours.
As to your question of removing the rudder at this angle, don't forget that the rudder has to drop down a few feet to clear the rudder post, you would have to dig a trench which might be difficult. I recently removed mine at anchor with a mask and snorkel which was easy. I was able to source a take-off rudder from someone who is parting out a commander. At this point I now have to replace the new rudder at anchor. I would love to have the boat hauled at this point to replace it, paint the bottom, remove the toilet and sink and glass the through hulls, but I can't move the boat till the rudder's back on. I dropped the rudder alone, but will need some help to raise the new one. I'll let you know how it goes.
Good luck,
Barry

bill, as usual, has great informative stuff.  This is a great diagram!
What it shows me is that putting an Ariel over on its side would NOT make it any easier to remove the rudder.

Well, maybe a bit easier to get at the gudgeon,  but you'd still have a time of it digging a hole (in MUD, no way) to squirrel the rudder out.  It would be better on a slope.  You got big tides up there down east.  I dunknow, all that water coming in all at once!  No rudder in the boat....:eek:

I'd sure like to hear how it wortks out......you first, Ed;)

The mud is a good part of this scheme if we try it. I'm not too sure why we are even thinking about this as I won't be able to fix it until the fall when the boat will be on the hard. I think we may try to jury rig something on the runt that is left of the rudder for the rest of the season. I always wondered if you could beach her on her side.
 
Using the same dock, we once winched the boat onto its side using the halyard at high tide to replace a through hull . . .so dangerous acts have been committed in the past. I think we have 11 feet on big tides but I don't recall. This is a dead calm spot so no waves are involved.
 
Any thoughts about oak?
 
Best, Ed
 
BTW I was a member of the board about 10 years ago. I'm very impressed with a lot of the boat pictures etc. I was pretty sure that my manual had the offsets for a new rudder but I don't see them. Am I mistaken or did I loose that page over the years?

Ed,  I believe
your boat builder friend is correct - you can rebuild your rudder using WHITE OAK
if you use the same method as the original.    The original rudder uses all silicone bronze rod and screws.  No glue is used.  White Oak don't like no glue anyway.

You'd be using quartersawn to avoid tendancy to warp.  That's also the cut that will shrink and swell.  My feeling would be to go with the biggest oldest tightest grain white oak available.  Might be too mean to ever open up!  The Ariel rudder is a BLADE.  Rather thin, requires nice wood.

Black Locust is another, probably more rot resistant wood and stronger if that's what you want.  You guys consider this a weed, don't you?  Best damn boat building wood in the world,
next to teak, and yellow pine, and honduras, and....... :D
____________________________________________________________________________________________
Let me ask you guys something:
IF you didn't let the fastenings corrode on the tiller fitting, and you could take it off easy - and the same thing with the gudgeon - why not take the rudder off when you haul out.  Keep it in brine,  Nothing crazy - just so the water don't freeze.  Make a ply box - line it black plastic - and balance the rudder shaft across the top with the wood in the liquid.    Why not?

The fiberglass/foam rudder guys think you're nuts.

The arguement for doing something like this is that  seasonal shrinking and swelling is going to loosen the bolts eventually,  
so you'll end up having to put plates on the sides of the blade in an attempt to keep it straight.  We  West Coasters NEVER haul our boats in the winter (YUP, the rudder stays wet forever) because it's too bloody expensive.:rolleyes:

Can we revisit the rudder/neutral byoancy thought for a bit? But I want to throw a twist in the mix. In that post it's said that if the rudder is boyant then it'll tend to float when healed over, and addeing weather helm.

 If a rudder (mahogany) is left uncovered and took on water I imagine that it comes close to neutral (right?) if its covered like #97 and a few others it is less likely to take on that water making it forever boyant (right?)

Here's the question: Those ariels out there that "sail them selves"  are your rudders covered or not? And those out there with hard handed weather helm are yours covered? #97 falls into the latter catagory.

If we are taking a poll on glassed / non-glassed rudders..

A-231's rudder is 'glassed. I set the amount of lee or weather helm i want with the sail trim (mainsheet traveler and jib). Just for amusement of visitors, Alyce and I occasionally steer the boat with sail trim alone.

even though my rudder is 'glassed it will not float. one layer of 24oz mat and 6oz cloth each side more than make up for a dry rudder.

ps... the new production Ensign class boats (our little sisters) are using a foam and fiberglass now instead of the wood original. A friend of mine refit one of those new rudders to her 40yr old ensign. the boat is faster and the rudder is tough as nails.

For what it's worth, my opinion.
It is my understanding that the fudge yacht designers use for figuring "neutral buoyancy" for a rudder does not include the shaft.
It's obvious then that if the rudder blade on an Ariel or Commander were AIR,
the rudder would still not float.

Only wood rudders on dinghys float.

It would be interesting to find out who makes the Ensign rudder.  Foss Foam rudders of Stainless steel and urethane foam are accidents waiting to happen.  Neither one of these materials are meant to stay any time under water.  My opinion is that even when brand new, the way the foam rudders I've seen are constructed, a shock from a rock, grounding, or a bang from anything will loosen the construction and render the blade useless.  There is no way to keep water out of a urethane foam rudder - when it gets in you got trouble.  And you will have to buy a whole new rudder because the stainless steel inside will be rusting.

Here's some thoughts on wood used for rudders such as ours.
The first thing to observe is that the bronze and wood (mahogany) rudders have been hanging around, in and out of the water for decades.  Since day one for some.

When wood gets wet the fiberous cell walls get soaked first,  then the cell cavities,  that is saturation.  Some woods sink in water when soaked, some don't.  It is my personal opinion that wood will always remain wood and not revert to lead - in terms of weight.  At what percentage of water in wood a rudder looses its 'neutral buoyancy' I don't know.  A rudder blade made from mahogany or teak will be lighter than one made from white oak.  In an A/C rudder I don't think it's a hell of a lot of difference given its size and skinnyness.

When drying out, the wood rudder will loose its cell cavity water first.  There won't be any shrinking until the cell walls start loosing water.  Shrinking will start in earnest when the wet wood in the rudder has lost about 2/3s of its weight.  Nobody around the yard remmbers ever seeing saturated wood - unless it was rotten.  I wonder if healthy wood can ever get to a saturated state?

The problem with seasonal drying and soaking is that the cell walls will get distorted and will not entirely return to dimension.  Air dried lumber is always prefered by craftsmen for boats because the wood has not been case hardened and distorted by oven drying.

Water will always get into wood under water.  Even encapsulated wood will be wet - tho, like the plastic rudder above, it is a matter of methodology and materials.  Good close grain, old growth, air dry, quartersawn lumber will make a stronger longer lasting rudder.  I've never heard that water logged wood looses any strength compared to dry.

Salt is hydroscopic.  A rudder drying out from salt water will have salt crystals inside.  There will always be moisture in a salt water rudder.  BUT if it gets below 30% it'll shrink.

Epoxy is synthetic (wood) resin.  I think it is a 'natural' wood preservative.
Any new rudder should be soaked in the stuff.  I would soak the predrilled individual planks of a rudder in thinned epoxy befor assembly.  It won't ecapsulate but will slow the effects of oxidation and time.  Repeated drying and soaking a wood rudder accelerates the aging process.  A mistreated rudder made with airdry will last longer.  Mike Goodwin told me that.*
All IMCO;)
___________________________________________________________________________________________
*no, he didn't.  Where the hell is Mike when you need him.....?

Quote from: tha3rdman;15971Here's the question: Those ariels out there that "sail them selves" are your rudders covered or not?

A-414's rudder was 'glassed'. It's been delaminating since I've owned it and the glass is peeling off in big slabs. But - she sails like a dream with full genny (150) and main in 5-15 mph winds. When it pipes up and I switch to the smaller head sail (100), I get a LOT of weather helm  because I have yet to reef the main...

Quote from: bill@ariel231;15972I set the amount of lee or weather helm i want with the sail trim (mainsheet traveler and jib). Just for amusement of visitors, Alyce and I occasionally steer the boat with sail trim alone.

Hey Bill, I want sailing / rigging lessons! :)

Never Glass A Plank Rudder

If the rudder is more or less holding together or if you have all blade parts,
BETTER THAN GLASSING would be to thrubolt strips of some fairly stiff material to patch it together.  Rudder can be wet.

Metal strips are criminally expensive these days, but since the fix is to keep the boat sailing, almost anything would do.  If you have a salvage place nearby you're in luck.

Sheet plastic would do: 1/4"-3/8" polypropylene or polyethylene. Polycarbonate, maybe acrylic.  Fair the fronts at the rudder post if you have time.
Or if you have the material, make strips up of matt and epoxy.
You won't get any rubber or adhesive to stick to a wet, bottom-painted rudder.
Well sealed marine ply strips might be a temporary fix if soaked in epoxy to help keep it from delaminating.

I would arrange the strips on the rudder parallel to the waterline.  Tilted UP about 35degrees  from the rudder post. I would thru bolt the strips to each other because you can't trust the wood of a tired rudder.

A damaged traditional rudder may have issues with the plank bolts at the ruddershaft.

The only wood you can successfully cover with glass for underwater is plywood.  Even then you are asking for trouble.  You'd have to build the rudder with the best marine ply you can afford (marine meranti BS1088) and you would have to use epoxy.  Vinylester maybe.
IMCO

"Never Glass A Plank Rudder - ebb" ... hmm.. maybe i'm lucky. A-231's is still going strong after 10 years. This wasn't necessarily my first choice but it appeared to be the best plan forward after the previous owners bungled repairs. for me the trick was (1) a very dry rudder core, (2) use of epoxy (vice polyester) with mat and cloth, (3) I sealed the bronze/fiberglass joint with '5200. no sign of delamination or water entry (i checked with a drill this year).

If A-231's rudder had been in one piece when I got it, I agree paint alone would have been the right answer.

as for sail trim.. once the rig is balanced with larger or small head sails and a a reef in the main as needed. try this when there is lots of room, light seas, don't try this in traffic...

to fall off.. (1) over sheet the jib, (2) slack the main (in really light air,  backwind the main on the leeward side), (3) re-trim the sails on the new heading.

to come up... (1) slack the jib, (2) over sheet the main (in light air, pull the boom above the centerline and backwind the main),  (3) re-trim to the new heading.

These sound like parlor tricks but in really light air my friends and I have used them on the race course to round the leeward mark in really light air ('cause the rudder alone will slow us down)....


cheers,
bill@ariel231
:)

I've emntioned this before as far as sail trim, and 97's weather helm even with the main slacked luffing (and everthing in between) with the 160 there is always weather helm. I've used the sails to steer before but only short short distances since she'll never fall off.  Even with just the genny, she still tends to come up.

Anti Highjack mauver -  Which is why I was wondering about the rudder tending to float.

bill,
you are one in a hundred,
I believe the odds even greater,
of anybody else making a good job of it.

It is definitely the method and the materials.
If the subject comes up again - or if you have the time,
a short treatise on the subject would be appreaciated by 100s
if not thousands of avid rudder sheathers to be.

If you were successful, please tell us how you did it.
I would not recommend it to the unanointed.

Ebb

will do when i get a moment...

Bill

Here is a link to the repair that I did to my rudder for those trolling this thread in the future.
 
http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/showpost.php?p=15996&postcount=167

Quote from: bill@ariel231;15963Ed

Yikes! I don't know if anyone has voluntarily done this on a flat surface. Mr. Tim (A-24) has talked about hauling out on a mud berth for his rudder repair.

I'd suggest thinking about finding a place to haul out that has some slope to it... Or... maybe drying out on with some jack stands or a cradle positioned in the water before the tide runs out. The attached cartoon shows some possible waterlines. It looks like the boat should recover just fine, but wave action may put water in the cockpit/icebox/lockers... (Are there any Naval Architects in the house??)

cheers, and good luck
Bill

Sounds like  you need to give that boat some legs.  I think there was an article in Good Ole Boat Magazine a number of years ago where a lady beached her boat and used these poles strapped to the toerail on both sides to keep it upright while she painted the bottom.  I guess it worked like a charm because the keel was relatively long so it was stable like that.

//www.atomvoyages.com
click Articles
________________________________________________________________________________________

SORRY:
Thought I'd check em out again, but for some *#&^@!?)(#!! reason can't get the said Article OR Project to come up!

The legs were take apart poles, I believe, with custom pads for feet, that were not lashed to the uppers but to the aft lower plate - and had lines leading from the feet fore and aft.  No way could you go cruising without them.

If you carried other poles viz spinaker, my guess is to be usable for legs on an Ariel (ie lashed to the shrouds) they'd have to be at least 10'.

//www.alberg30.org/maintenance/disorganized/careening
I guess technicly careening can mean leaning the boat more to one side than the other - just as it means resting the ship on its bilge.  This site takes the upright approach and could possibly be a way of getting the rudder OUT if you want to dig a 30" deep hole on what you're sitting on.  (You need a 28" drop to clear the top of the rudder shaft from the bottom of the rudder tube.)
__________________________________________________________________________________________
Dream of a maintenance-free s.s. and foam rudder?....this taken from a skipper's list of things to do at HAULOUT From a 'geocities' site:

"Drill hole in lowest point of rudder to drain water.
Rusty water or lots of water = bad.
Epoxy hole shut befor refloating."

(this could be a new thread - but it still is apropos access to the rudder)

Jim Baldwin's Sailnet article now comes up using the address in the previous post.
If whisker and spinaker poles don't have a place on your cruising A/C then this invention of Jim's is fantastic.  He uses s.s. pipe/tube.  Relatively common 6061T6 aluminum might work  as well.

The article is not complete in that there are no closeups of the fittings.  Most important is the method of attachment of a leg to the chainplate.  I believe Jim temporaryly removes the aft lowers, using that plate.*  

Some exploration of 'Some Legs' for the Commander or Ariel should probably be done on the hard.  I have trouble 'seeing' the legs  at the top 'attached' to a single point on top of the chain plate, obviously by a bolt or pin.  Couldn't the leg be lashed in some fashion right to the upper shroud, which is almost vertical?  In other words I would rather have a two point tie to the upper shroud in order to have a stiffer leg.  One lashing at deck level, another a couple feet higher.  What am I missing here?

Another thought is that if the center shroud is used, the fore and aft lowers on either side could be employed to position and steady the legs, again by lashing.  Maybe - like the feet below - a plywood devise that clamps to the shrouds with a couple clamps for the leg poles could be designed.  Ariels with inboard shrouds might benefit with a gizmo that clamped to the shrouds but standoff the proper distance outboard for the legs to be at a optimal angle.  Seems to me that an optimal angle would be slightly knock-kneed, wider at the bottom than the top.

Another 'exploration' is necessary to articulate the footpads.  Seems to me the pad to pole joint has to be a universal type - able to lay flat at whatever angle the boat is to the surface.  How?

Another problem is whether the legs can or ought to be adjusted IF the boat decides to lean and a foot starts sinking?:eek:

Another issue is that the flat part of the keel is aft of the shrouds.  Is there any tendancy of the A/C to nose forward or downward?  An  inclined beach would counter that problem if the boat is bow in.  Yet most of the Ariel's sitting surface is under the companionway - the keel starts upward from a point between the two big windows in the cabin - that might put "unintended" pressure on the legs at the shrouds.

That means there is less than 6' of horizontal keel surface (in the 25' length of an A/C).  And all of that is concentrated in the rear half.  If you wanted to remove the rudder, it would be dicey to say the least, even tied to side of a quay.
Has anybody done this - tied off at dock side and have the tide go out to work on the bottom?
A THIRD LEG MAY BE NEEDED AT THE BOW.  (just being difficult - and voluminous as somebody once said!:p )
______________________________________________________________________________________
Anybody carrying oars (see appropriate archives) might find that they could be adapted to leg duty.  Blade up with slip on footpad over the handle, and a clever, simple attachment of the blade end to the shrouds...
______________________________________________________________________________________
*So far as I know Jim Baldwin is the only one on the Web who has been thoughtful enough to share his Boat Legs invention.  His boat is a 28' Pearson Triton, BIG sister to the A/C.  He is a double circumnavigator, and MORE than obviously knows what he is doing.  Don't mean to second guess or demean in any way whatsoever his methods, ways, or means.  I'm positive that knowing how to stand your boat up is as important as sailing it, or climbing the mast.  My intent is Ariel specific, and hopefully to get to the root of things with discussion.  I could be wrong.  And could be assuming too much.:confused:

Per Ebb's challenge (in post #253) I'll describe my method of repair for A-231's rudder.

Disclaimer and Warning:

If you have a functioning plank rudder leave it alone. This method is not a simple sheathing of the current rudder. The end product is a fiberglass rudder with a wood core. If your rudder is has a couple splits, has a solid shaft and you really, really need a boat project then this method may be for you. I have no personal objection to any approach to rudder repairs that are safe. I make no claim this is by any means a recommended method of repair to the Ariel/Commander rudder. It has however, worked for me for the last 10 years.

Problem description:

• When we acquired A-231, the rudder had failed in the same manner as Tim’s on A-24 ( a vertical break from the propeller aperture to the top).
• A P.O.’s attempt to repair the rudder looked to be un-reinforced thickened epoxy to glue the broken halves together. As a result, I had a series of bad repairs to address or the need to fabricate a new rudder from scratch…
• I elected to sheath A-231’s rudder while keeping in mind the many failed rudders I’ve seen around boatyards. Most sheathed rudders I’ve observed have been simple affairs of 6oz cloth with no attempt to keep the actual rudder core dry. The most common failures I observed were the result of (1) a poor bond between the rudder skin and the rudder shaft, (2)  freeze damage or swelling from the resulting water entry, least common was (3) trauma to the rudder skin from a grounding. Many of these fixes did more harm than good as the fiberglass skin often just trapped water and led to early failure from rot. Clearly water entry in a sheathed rudder is the root cause of failures…
• A-231’s rudder is essentially a fiberglass rudder with a wood core. The difference from a traditional fiberglass fairing  are: first, a thick skin over the bulk of the rudder (two layers of 6oz cloth and a layer of mat yielding a 1/8” - 3/16" skin), and second, a significant effort spent on sealing the joint between the rudder shaft and the wood core of the rudder. For A-231, the rudder shaft is sealed with both a ½ inch of thickened epoxy with a secondary seal of 3M 5200 in a groove at the fiberglass/shaft boundary.

The following entries show the steps followed in A-231’s rudder repair.
[/LIST]

steps 1 and 2:_____________________________________________________

step 3:___________________________________________________________

step 4:__________________________________________________________

step 5:______________________________

The 5200 seal on top of ½” of glass may be overkill but I’m a belt and suspenders kind of guy…. Plus it was an excuse to use yet another power tool on a otherwise simple project. ;)

cheers,
bill@ariel231

ps. one last word of caution... the radius of the leading edge of the rudder will grow as a result of the additional glass. as a result, the radius of the channel in the trailing edge of the keel will also need to be increased to make room. On A-231 this was accomplished with a 1" sanding drum chucked into a RotoZip (a sort of overgrown dremel). If you omit this step the rudder will grind against the trailing edge of the keel.

Bill is text book on his rudder reburbishment!


If I may comment....  
Fiberglass rudder with wood core imco is absolutely the correct concept.

Water or callit water vapor will get into wood that lives under water no matter what is done to encapsulate it.  Nothing wrong with that except that the wood will want to swell and move.  So layers of glass and matt are called for to immobilize the 'core' as much as possible.

I'd emphasize to some  readers that the best plastic to use is twopart epoxy.  Vinylester could be a possible second choice.  Polyester should not be used in this ap.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Wrapping the ruddershaft.  
It is my opinion you can wrap the ruddershaft with CLOTH layers of glass.  This isnn't clear in the cads.  Observe how much room there is if you don't have the original wood rudder on your keel.  The original rudder has the bronze shaft exposed with the blade carefully tabbed onto the aft side of the metal.  There should be plenty of room to take a few turns of glass around the shaft.  Epoxy sticks pretty well to cleaned up bronze.  It will go a long way to welding the different materials together:  wood, metal, frp. Including perhaps some questionable bolts and screws hidden inside the wood.
As bill says: In wrapping the shaft keep in mind the turning of the rudder.  You don't want to hamper its radius/swing.  I would, as bill suggests, I think, keep the wraps to 6oz cloth, no xmatt.  The buildup of 6oz cloth is minimal. Two layers is good, but one or two more may be possible.  
[Make up a layer test  of scrap fabric and epoxy and measure the finished thickness.  Wrap something bendable like cardboard of the same thinkness around the shaft while it's on the boat and see what if any limits have been added to the swing of the rudder.]
GOOD suggestion to clean out the cove in the end of the keel once the rudder is removed.  Best chance you'll ever get - and you can barrier coat it too.  Creating depth is good, width may be a bit of a problem, depending on how skinny your keel is overall at the rudder.  (Rotary rubber drum/sanding sleeves seem to be becoming scarce.  One catalog source is Klingspor, //www.woodworkingshop.com
You used to be able to buy sanding sleeves/drums in sets for pretty cheap.  But if you have to get singles: a 1 1/2" sleeve/drum in a drill will fit nicely the cove in the keel, coarse grit.  So, of course will the 1"!!!  If you are renovating the boat, it is not possible to do it without a complete set of drums.  
Apply the 6oz cloth at a bias (45 degrees) around the shaft,  it'll double the strength and there will be no puckerings.
Actual work-in-progress photos would have been great for this important upgrade variation.  Oh well, next time!:D
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
As a matter of curiousity:  The original lines drawings, presumably by Alberg, shows  the rudder shaft as 1 1/2" D.  Almost as if the original shaft was to have been wood.  The 'sternpost' is 2" across on the drawing.  Our 1" bronze shaft translates to a much thinner rudder at its leading edge.  Could say that fiberglassing as above brings the rudder closer to Alberg (vs Pearson) spec!  And more hydrodynamic off the thicker end of the keel.  I wonder if anybody will take the opportunity to add some modern foil curves to the blade and skinny down the trailing edge?  A wood core fiberglass rudder would be a good opportunity, but ofcourse there would be no going back.  Foil shaping may help correct   stalling and steering problems some have mentioned?

Thanks ebb... back in 96 when i did the rudder i had no thought about photos of the small stuff (i was more worried about deck, keel & diesel issues). hopefully the next candidate (perhaps the next owner of A-24) will indulge us with pictures.

You are right. 2 part epoxy was my choice. As i think about it now, i recall the shaft end and the heel were done with 6oz cloth and thickened epoxy. I was probably used thickened epoxy and chopped glass in the joint for the rudder strap. once it set, a dremel was used to reshape the profile of the rudder in the areas that were glassed.  two to three layers of bias cut 6oz cloth on the edges are the right answer. Mat won't make the sharp turn at the edges.

none of this work necessarily leaves me with less work in the spring. The rudder gets a complete health check before bottom paint is applied and the 5200 seal is checked and renewed if necessary. The joint most likely to move is the top most. The lower section of the rudder shaft isn't subject to a lot of torsion. I spend time on this check every year because while there may be a low probalility of failure, the consequence is a time consuming repair if water ever got to the core.

cheers,
bill@ariel231
:)

OK!
Could be said to be a good test - by any reckoning.

An underwater wood rudder on a plastic boat is incongruous to me.  
It's not an eyecatching sweep of varnished coaming or accents like the cabin rails.  
The original A/C rudder is a great piece of high end bronze and mahogany craftmanship.  
Not only is this astonishing artwork  hidden under water but it works real hard and has done so for many, for many many soggy miles - for decades.

 I'd argue that the rudder should have  originally been woodcore fiberglass - in keeping with the wonderful new plastic hull material and glass/balsa composite of the deck  of the '60s.  
I guess materials and engineering weren't up to the old tried and true back then.  

But now it can be put aright!

I just hauled 387 out for my first time.  Overall things look pretty good. I was surprised at the lack of biofouling since the bottom hasn't seen new paint for (I'm guessing since I just bought the boat last winter) at least 4 years.  I plan to remove the seven layers of bottom paint and replace with new trinidad, replace/remove all thruhulls and replace with correct seacocks and do the topsides with brightsides.

The rudder, is another story however, and seems in very poor condition. I have always felt that the rudder didn't respond as I felt it should so really this should come as no surprise. I would like to remove it from the boat for repair.  It appears that one needs to remove that gudgeon strap, pull the ruddder up and move sideways and drop.  Simple enough but what is the best way to take out the pins the hold the gudgeon? The pins on mine are flush with the strap.  Do you just pound them out with a hammer? Can they be reset?

Any help would be great!

Cheers,


Andrew

Andrew, Welcome to the real world of renovation.:D
You perhaps have already started on the rudder....
Remember to take the sleeve bearing out....

I''d forensic the strap.
The strap was probably put on last at the factory, so that's the place to begin.
Strip the paint off down to the metal to see what's there and how it's put together.  If it's original and tired and you are going to rebuild the rudder, you might be putting on a new gudgeon and new fastenings.
It's unlikely that all underwater bronzes are the same alloy, so things may have crystalized or leached or got tired.  
Or if it's just like new, maybe not.  It is bordering on antique so it'll be instructive how it was done on your boat, and you may want to rebuild or restore exactly whats there.

Photos.
____________________________________________________________________________
To take pins out, drill into the pin a little way (1/4"?) with a slightly undersized drillbit - to destroy the peened head.  Then punch the pin out.
Can't be used again.
If you find the gudgeon strap is fastened with peened over rod then it almost certainly is pure soft copper - and will look pink.  Which is what tired bronze alloys look like.  That gudgeon itself couldn't take too much banging with the ballpeen hammer.  Peening requires a backing iron, so you'd need someone when putting the gudgeon back on to hold something immovable against the pin on the other side.  
I barely managed to pin the ruddershoe on to 338 using  silicon rod.  The stuff don't peen worth a damn.  Down at the bottom of the boat I could clamp on a piece of iron plate as a backer - which can't be done with the gudgeon and mounted rudder in place.  I should have heated presized rod pins to dull red with Mapp gas to anneal them, let them cool, position them, then attempted to peen the heads.  The rudder shoe is a big ole casting and I peened the rod into chamfered holes.  
Thing is, when you start peening copper alloys they start hardening again.
You'll probably use silicon bronze machine bolts for the strap when putting it back together.  You might find solid copper rivets and burrs of large size and length from a woodboat building source.

The rudder doesn't look to bad to me. You could just reinforce/repair the tip.

Since you have concrete under the boat, I think you're going to need to disassemble the upper rudder shaft from the rudder in order to drop it.

The project will probably escalate into a whole new rudder.

Not sure about the handling problems you've been experiencing. Is the wood loose from the shafts?

It's much worse than it looks in these pictures (good from far far from good!).  The wood has eroded away along all the margins and yes it is loose on the shaft.  The wood has a mossy texture and you can peel strips off with no effort at all.  I have been reading about rudders and am trying to decide what to do?

1) replace with new (would have to be a dyi job)

2) encapsulate in glass as per Bill

If the wood that would make up the "core" of the glassed rudder is punky would this mean that this option is unwise to follow?

I don't worry about doing stuff I know but have not really built a rudder before.


Andrew

Andrew,
There's probably enough material in these forums for you to find out everything about each style of rudder.

The wood plank style you have on your boat is classic wood working.  You could take that rudder apart and rebuild using it as pattern.  It depends on what you find whether you go ahead with a wood plank rudder or a wood core, or a plywood, or an all plastic composite.

You have to find out how the bronze shaft is doing.  Depending on the rod alloy you may or may not have corrosion inside the rudder tube - at the connection points of rudder shaft and the long plank bolts - and the end of the shaft at the shoe..  If this is all good, why not go with the traditional rudder?  
You have to have some basic wood skills imco.  And basic tools.  This rudder uses NO glue.  The pieces are finely fitted together.  Which adds to its overall strength.  You have a couple relatively long holes to drill sideways through the width of the plank,  The plank at the bronze shaft(s) have to be coved along the edge.  And you have to shape and curve the mahogany.  
However, when you mount your own made rudder nothing else on the boat will faze you!
And I think putting a mahogany plank rudder together will give the most satisfaction of all the methods.  Wood smells good, bronze works good and there's no sticky goop.
AND it'll last another 40 years - under water!!!

I would research these pages and look for the how-I-did-it accounts that have photos, or at least good descriptions.
And some owners here have email access, and may be willing to go brow-to-brow on the specifics of their mahogany plank rudders.


ON_LINE MANUAL* addition:
I know it's too much to ask.  A step by step pictorial tutorial on how to rebuild the original rudder would be a great addition to this Forum.  Could be posted in the Gallery pages.  It is the only evidence of oldtime high-end wood craftsmanship on our snotty Ariel/Commanders.

 



If you are going with a glass over woodcore blade, the core has to be sound and well connected to the shaft.  If it is wobbley you can NOT end up with a strong rudder.
____________________________________________________________________________________
*Nope, doesn't exist.

Still thinking about rudders.......

What is the advantage of having the drift pins end up in cut-outs in the middle of the second plank (like Tim built) vs having them go all the way through both planks and be secured externally (like c'pete's barndoor)?

Maybe this is obvious but I'm not a carpenter.

Andrew,
Tim's photos on page 13 of this thread is a good how-to.  
If you planned the curvature of the rudder, some of those bolts would not necessarily line up like that and might be longer.
I might have wanted a few longer ones going further into the outer plank.  Length of bolt depends on the outline of the rudder.
Lining bolts up like that could conceivably create a 'zipper' effect.  
If the rudder wanted to crack, it might chose the easiest way, which might be right up that line of nut holes.
[These 'bolts', of course, are cut to length silicone rod with custom threaded ends.]

What this method does is allow you to have no fastenings in the outer edge of the blade.  It would allow some judicious blade tapering, which is a good thing.   While the barn door style, where the bolts (and washers and nuts) go clear through, you can hardly round the trailing edge at all.  But it ain't coming apart, or if it does, it'll still hang together.

I don't think one is better than the other.  Probably have heated arguments with cold beers.

A rudder with a prop cutout like yours the situation is more complicated.  Here the plan may call for actual drift pins which are blind pins you make to length that are put in matching holes in opposing planks that  hold the joint in line.
The two planks with their different fasteners, bolts and pins would be drawn together with pipe clamps or the like.  The drift pins would disappear completely.  After drawn together the rudder is cut to shape.
When the rudder swells in the water the pins will also be holding the planks together even though there are no heads or nuts on the ends.  Pins like this could be placed where no bolt could go or between widely placed bolts.  

Tim screwed his long bolts into the shaft/rod in tapped holes.  I would supposed the holes did not go through the the rod but were bottom tapped in about 1/2" deep.  Where the shape of the rudder makes radical angles of plank, a drift pin could  also be screwed into the shaft and enter blind into an appropriate hole in the wood - still doing a job of positioning and holding - but not clamping.
Makes for a strong rudder shaft - and well attached blade.

With the prop cutout rudder we have to carefully plan exactly where the fastenings go.  That is why careful deconstruction of your present rudder will tell the tail.  Guys who made those rudders in the 60s were pros and never missed a lick.  I would essentially copy what they did.  in remaking THAT rudder.  Evidently all Ariel and Commander rudders were built to the same pattern, whether OB or inboard.  So original rudders all have the two part bent shaft.

That said, there are probably a hundred other ways to make a rudder.  Most of them almost as good.

Thanks ebb!  Your advice, as usual, is spot on.  Going to the boat this weekend to start in on renos.  My dilemma is every day she is out increases the overall cost of the haulout ($25/day for time on the hard adds up fast!). After much thought I have decided to focus on the hull so I can get her back in the water ASAP.  Once she is back in I can order the materials and do the rudder rebuild rather than being hurried along worried about boat yard costs. The rudder will have to be fixed before she sails again for sure. I figure I'll just do an install like Tim M using the carriage bolts to attach the gungy gungeon. This I'm sure I can do using scuba (I'm a forgetting something???).  With a brand new rudder in hand the install should be easy esp if I do all the prep beforehand.  I figure I'll hang the old one on the wall in the dining room as a conversation piece.  Hell it's almost as old as I am!

I'm sure I'll have more questions come Monday........

PS Discussions (I don't get into heated arguements!) over cold beers in a pub near your boat yard sounds very appealling.  Although I must admit I would prefer a nice Meritage!

.....days become weeks, weeks become months, months turn into years......

That rudder don't LOOK all that bad.
What you do to the hull to get back into the water,
do the same to the rudder.  Scraping, sanding, bottom paint.
It'll be fine.  Until next time....

How are things at the bottom of the rudder.  How is the rudder shoe?
Use a flashlight and try to look into the rudder tube where the shaft enters.
You are looking for news here.  Scrape a little.  Knock that paint off the gudgeon just to see what's there.  Check where the strap goes round the shaft.  Give the rudder a shake.  A pleasant fix is a new sleeve bearing, amazing what a tight rudder feels like under the skipper's arm.

Don't recall the beer,  I'll see if it's at the market right now, CHEERS!
__________________________________________________________________________________________________

[My favorite these days is an 8% ale called Eye of the Hawk, Mendocino Brewing, CA. Best balance of hops and sugar of any micro in this area.  No taste of  alcohol, pours a nice controlled head - world class brew that comes in 12oz bottles, which I consider a big plus.]
Imco, as always.

Ebb,

Where can I purchase the manganese bronze strap that I am going to need for the new gungeon.  I checked online metals but they don't seem to carry the strap just rod?


Many thanks,

Andrew

When I was replacing my rudder strap because the original one was spent, I too had trouble finding a source for what I needed.  A prominent member of this board came to my rescue and through an act of kindness, sent me what I needed at no cost.  I am very willing to return the favor with the stock I have left over.  The width is 7/8" at one end and 1" at the other as I had trouble cutting it even, but I think that should be enough to work for you.  If you are interested, feel free to PM or e-mail your address and I'll ship it to you.  
 
 
(http://www.mrmert.com/ariel24/images/rudder/bronze_stock_1.JPG)
 
(http://www.mrmert.com/ariel24/images/rudder/bronze_stock_2.JPG)

Never asked you Tim how you managed using that 1/8" 655.

I'll bet the original Ariel straps are pure soft copper, otherwise once you thread the bar through the rudder and attempt to bend it onto the keel, how would you do it?
Probably have bent the bar into a smaller angle than 90degrees.
Still,  how did you get that hardass bronze bent the rest of the way?
Did you anneal it first?
Seems to me there would be no way to get it flat enough to drill the holes.

You may have predrilled the holes on one side, but how could you be sure where the holes would come out on the other?
If you had a wall nearby you could jack the strap closed with a two-by.
And then hold it tight the same way with narrow bar - to finish that important drilling.

What was the trick?


Salvage and scrap yards used to be a place to spend Saturday mornings.  'Course you're never sure what bronze was brass and what stainless was really stainless.  And copper bar is probably a junk yard's cash flow these days.  Junk yards were fun.
If you can explain to Andrew and me how you did it, I'll talk to the prominent bloody know-it-all about digging up another piece of strap.

Quote from: ebb;17069how did you get that hardass bronze bent the rest of the way?...What was the trick?

I bent the bar enough so that it could be threaded through the opening behind the shaft.  Once in place I was able to get the bolt through one end and then fanagle the other in so that a little bit of thread was showing.  I then screwed on the nut and that clamped it.  What made the job really obnoxious was the copious amount of 5200 dripping all over me while doing this.  On land was the easy part, when I took that strap off underwater I had a hell of a time getting it back on.  
 
Here is the post that showed the strap once I was done.
http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showpost.php?p=15362&postcount=132

Tim, Nice work!!!
The strap is bent perfectly. I still don't know how you did it.

I had a couple fanagles.  One of them was at least six feet long.  Coming across Country one March in my pickup some SOB in Ohio stole them both.


Have an idea that would make life easier to get the rudder shaft free from the grudgeon.  
OK, take that 1/8" stuff, or better something thicker like 3/16" or 1/4" 655, and bend that perfect 'U' loop  Tim has there.  Then, right in the center of the loop, cut it in half.  Cut it in half into equal 'J' pieces.

With the rudder in place, position and mount one J piece.  It's OK here to use  fully threaded carriage bolts.  Where the bolts come through  the KEEL make  holes in the fiberglass for a washer and nut  (the keel SHOULD be solid in this area) so that when the bolts are cinched the nuts end up FLUSH with the keel surface with the bolt ends sticking out.  If you are using 1/4" bolts the hole including a split washer won't need to  be more than 1/2" deep.  

Then take the other half gudgeon slip it on the bolts and cinch it up with  more nuts.  You have clamped the midway rudder shaft in place.

To remove the rudder unscrew the nuts, take off the 'J' half  gudgeon and (after preparing the shaft in the cockpit) move the shaft UP and sideways out of the shoe.

You do have a slit down the middle of the gudgeon.
My thinking on this is that the fitting itself does little work,  It's there as a keeper.  Most rudders are able to rise a little when lifted from below.  The purpose of the gudgeon is to make sure the rudder drops back down into the recess in the shoe.  The six feet of rudder shaft  is held at the top with the sleeve-bearing and at the bottom where 3/4" of it is buried in the shoe.  The rudder blade keeps the shaft straight - SO it could be said that the gudgeon is essentially a backup.  An essential backup.  
But you see what I"m getting at:  there is little action by the rudder that could bend the split gudgeon apart.

And if the 'J's did get bent a little, bang them back in place.  It's impossible to see how they could get bent.

[YES, well, it could happen that you go aground, the rudder is jambed up against the hull no longer in the shoe.  Then some sideways action with the weight of the boat bends the rudder where it enters the tube.  OK, there's is an argument for a full strap.  Therefor 1/4" bronze for extra beef in a split version]
There are probably some fancy hydrodynamic fastener options. But this should work good enough.  With carriage bolts, you always will have a clue which side the nuts are on.  I would put  all nuts on with nevah-seize and try sculpting small mounds of  putty or rubber on the exposed nuts for protection.

It's not unreasonable to make our rudder removable, correct?  
You boats with plank rudder blades in the North East who winter on the hard could remove and keep them plumped up and  happy  until spring in a cozy salt water tub.  No shrinkage, hey what!

There you go,
is it not a simple method to take the rudder off without removing the gudgeon?
This is only an idea at this point
and imco as always.

Thing about working under water is that nobody can hear you cussing:rolleyes:
And it WAS you Tim, wasn't it, who invented the in water method of rudder removal....?  Did you use the boom?
This is a real option that avoids the expense of yard hoisting the boat.
It's also a viable cruiser option, a way of getting a damaged rudder off a floating boat.

Ebb,
You got yerself a deal.  I'll PM you details!

ANdrew

Andrew, I'm the one with the extra bronze stock.  PM me!  :cool:

Of course you are.  Just got back from my first reno weekend (see new thread) and I'm a bit out of it!  Sorry about that!


And thanks for your great offer!

Andrew

Rudder saga continues.

Worked on the rudder this weekend.  Decided to remove it from the boat.  Easier said than done.  Had to dig the old slit trench w/o a shovel. Used my trustly wonder bar (gotta love that tool!).  Cleaned up the rudder and reshaped it after the digging project.  Removed alot of old bad wood.  Some epiphytic damage on the lower margin.  Overall came out loking pretty good.  I believe it still needs replacement but will suffice for the next month or so.  Thanks to Tim for the replacement metal for my grundy grundeon!

Shoe looks good as far as I can tell.

Tighened up all the screws/bolts and the rudder feels better.  Repreened the heads as they were out of sorts after the adjustment.  Shaft is very red (and blurry!) in parts.......replacement looming.

Also followed Tim's example and added some thickened to the exit point of the rudder tube.  Will sand it down when I do the hull.  Sorry about the crappy picture.  I just can't see that damn camera screen in the sunshine!

Andrew

Looks like a 3-plank rudder there!  Wonder if it's original?
Does indeed look good, except for 'incidentals' on the bottom edge.
Third plank out might have been attached with lags.

Copper (pink) color on a supposed bronze (gold) shaft would not be a good sign.
It would mean the alloy was high zinc and the zinc has leached leaving a porous copper behind.  Leaching is INTERNAL alloy galvanic action.  Does not require anothedissimular alloy nearby.  In the case of a copper alloy - too much zinc for salt water immersion.
If you get serious about making a new rudder, I strongly suggest you go with silicon bronze.     So you can keep the alloys in the rudder all the same.  High zinc manganese bronze should NOT be used underwater.  Nor stainless.  I think this is beyond 'my opinion'.
Prepare for a nosebleed on the price!!!  ($53.31 a foot +s&h for 1" S.B. rod from Onlinemetals)

Impressive action there!
____________________________________________________________________________________________
Getting bronze for a boat is a big problem these days.  Nearly all marine sources are orientated to stainless steel.  Silicon rod is still available usually, along with a range of fasteners from SOME marine catalogers.  S.B. sheet and bar is impossible to find in small quantity off-the-street sales.  As the woodenboat forum says:  you have to find fabricators in your area.  They may have left-overs from a job because they too have to order 'minimum quantities'.
Here are three non-ferrous suppliers that show  phone numbers on their net pages, it may be a friendly sign.
Rancocas Metals in New Jersey - 800-762-6382
Atlas Metals in Denver - 800-662-0143
Busby Metals Hauppauge NY  800-552-8729. / 631-434-3400  (sometimes get better action with a local number)
There is no indication from  woodenboat forum experience that these suppliers with internet sites will send you a 1 foot piece of bronze in the mail.

BUT TRY Phil at  Metal Service Center*, 7743 Bell Rd, Windsor CA, 707-838-8088.  The estate metal and wood shop here where I work buys small quantitys and custom pieces of all kinds of metals constantly from them. No problem.  Maybe they UPS.  Remember you are in the boat repair business.

* from whom I ordered my original Everdur from.  I got NO break in the price. (gold)  
One metal fabricator in my area  is Lux Metals in Santa Rosa CA.  They, or actually Dean, welded my silicon bronze rudder shaft and strap armature together.  Beautiful piece of work. (platinum)  
They never returned to me some S.B. sheet I had to quantity buy for the job.  
I mention these to show that every metro area has some sort of  access to specialty materials.
Always  E X P E N S I V E .

A three planker indeed!  Looks old as dirt so I figure the real Mackoy.  Thanks for the shout about the bronze.  I guess if I convert to Si bronze then I'll have to change my shoe.  The shaft is in sad shape but I think it will hold for a bit.

Well start to scout out options.  


Andrew

There is a 'rudder shoe discussion' on the board here about the manganese question.

The official designation of manganese bronze is that is is a BRASS.  It is a pig in a poke.*  There is a bit of manganese added to the copper and zinc that makes it quite strong. For example: 58% copper/38% zinc/ 4% manganese.  It's as if the M. was a catalyst for two soft metals, like polyester resin, resulting in a much harder material.

I had a conversation once with Roger Winiarski the owner of Bristol Bronze.
Most of their castings are done in M.B.  Most of their castings NOW are one off above the waterline casting for mega yachts, and mega retros last I heard.  They do have a number of castings in their catalog that they must get calls on.  And they do have a few silicon bronze fittings.

Roger said that Bristol supplied all the original bronze for the Pearson Ariels.
I just cannot believe that Bristol supplied a brass for the underwater rudder parts on the Ariel.  He did some casting for me and in the two part cast gudgeon  he said he used manganese.  And I called him on it. And he started changing the subject.  I will probably not use the fitting.
[and you know, I keep saying who am I to take issue with THIS guy...]

I had a new rudder shoe cast locally in silicon bronze and I will be inserting a S.B. rudder shaft into it.

There is no real way you can stop an alloy that wants to destroy itself from the inside out like a brass will do IN sea water.  I believe mounting a zinc on the shoe is only a palliative.
I also believe that the proper bronze has to have been originally used.   There are evidently plenty of Ariels that have their shoes in perfect condition after 45 years in brine.  Only silicon bronze or some other high percentage copper alloy could have survived that long unchanged.

Winiarski could be wrong and it is other early Pearson classes that have had problems with their shoes.

However, 338 did show corrosion on its shoe, but the Ariel came to me with a bastard rudder with  a stainless shaft.  I assumed the combination caused the problem with the shoe.  There was a zinc attached to the shoe with one longer through bolt.  The side the zinc was on was most corroded with a whitish coating on the bronze pitting (when dry) that I assumed was zinc.  Logically it should have been the other way around, with the stainless shaft being eaten away - but it was perfect.  How long the rudder had been there is unknown.  SO somehow Winiarski could be right - that BRASS was used for the rudder shoe in the Ariel.


But that has to be one of the most unfortunate admissions by a professional  purveyor of bronze fittings that I'll ever hear.:eek:

*Alberg might have said (had he known!) "Kopa grisen i sacken!"
There's a cat in the sack - what you think is a fat suckling pig is a stray cat.
What kind of pig is in your shoe?  What kind of 'bronze' is in your fitting?

Rudder shoe discussion is at: http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=583

Here is a very short paper by Prof Stephen C. Dexter from the University of Delaware Sea Grant Program.  Short but compact with implications.  Obviously I'm fascinated by the subject - and there are many commonly held misconceptions this read might start to unravel.  Including my own!

This paper has a revealing galvanic series table referenced 'in flowing seawater'.
Which is exactly where we want to be when discussing the problem.
Manganese bronze and silicon bronze are cheek by jowl with each other in the table having a close voltage range.  Here I discover the 300 s.s. are closer to the cathodic or noble end of the series.

So my assumption that copper alloys are more noble than stainless is WRONG.
Stainless has more problems than bronze like crevice corrosion and changing voltages when covered with slime.
And I might add, that while the voltage range is amazingly close with M.B. and S.B., the one overloaded with zinc is more prone to falling apart than the nearly pure copper alloy.

This table shows why we do not want 300 steel in our bronze shoe.  And it explains the phenomena I saw on my Ariel's  rudder shoe.

It also shows  the surprising over-lapping voltage range between manganese bronze and silicon bronze.  Either one can be anode or cathode in a galvanic couple "depending on exact exposure conditions."  So that's a good reason to add a third more anodic metal in the form of zinc - if you have that going with those two.....  M. bronze shoe and S. bronze shaft, or......

Galvanic Corrosion Final
//www.ocean.udel.edu/mas/masnotes/corrosion.pdf

Worked on the rudder a bit more this w-end.  Dug out all the bad wormy wood and backfilled with thickened epoxy.  Decided to give her a few coats of epoxy.  I don't intend to "seal" it but rather using the resin to beef up the punky wood, smooth the surface and fill some of the cracks.

Two more coats and this baby is done.  At least for the time being!

Andrew

just as a belt and suspenders measure, i you might want to smear some 3M 5200 along the joint between the resin and the rudder shaft. The dissimilar material may leave you with a path for water intrusion into the rudder core. While the rudder is out, for an afternoon worth of fiberglass and sanding, you could fix it for good....

cheers,
bill@ariel231
;)

By the way you are really close to having a long term solution here (mine has been in service about 11 years now with no sign of splitting or water entry, take a look at posts #259-#263 in this thread).

gotta listen to bill on this.
5200 in the metal to wood seams if you are launching now is a good call.

Depending on how much water is still 'logged' in the wood of a rudder, it could conceivably be successful to GLASS a rudder with a few layers of CLOTH and EPOXY.  Arguably the wood is still swelled throughout most of its interior and is 'equalized'.   If the water content in the wood was close to 20%, but the surface dry enough for regular epoxy laminations, who's to say it wouldn't work?
If your rudder there in the photos has been very dry, back in the water the swelling of the wood WILL crack the thickened epoxy.  There is always the exception,  the stuff may not crack because the rudder is old enough to be almost inert.  The blade is also well shaped and thin enough to be successfully subdued with frp but not gelled epoxy.  
Baking the planks in the sun would, could shrink and loosen it up and open up the surface radically.  And immersion in water will tighten it up.  Swell  seams closed again.  And reduce the wobble of the planks on their bolts.  Wood is amazing.

In my book the only certain useful epoxy on an old plank rudder is to dress the wood in penetrating epoxy.  No more than two coats, loading creates a gummy mess.  Goes for a brand new one also.  The commercial stuff is very flexible and would not contest  the movement of the wood.  It would be a sealer and provide a better base for epoxy primer and bottom paint. And add worm protection.  You can make a credible penetrating sealer by thinning combined two-part laminating epoxy with xylene.

If you are going to use the present rudder as is - as a core for fiberglassing - you will have to put many layers of cloth to defeat the core's swelling.   It may be nearly impossible.
If you strip the old mahogany from the shafts, you could replace it with plywood.  The method is described here in this thread. (see pg 11, 153>)  But does not describe the glassing step.
You'd rout in coves where the bolts are and sandwich them between two layers of meranti-aguaply.  You may not need even to remove the bolts from the shaft.  Then apply glass cloth around  well prepared bronze rod and
shaped ply.  Ply is not going to swell like planks.

[What countless skippers (well, maybe they could be counted:p) have discovered is that both polyester and epoxy allow moisture and or water vapor to enter what the plastics are covering.  Depending on how thorough the glass job, it's only a matter of time.
The rudder with the least future problems has a  closed cell pvc foam core.]

What's good about this plywood method is that you can use what you have - if the metal is in good condition - and end up with another 40year rudder.  Your investment is in the plywood, epoxy and cloth.
imco, ebb

Bill@Ariel231 HAS SUCCESSFULLY COVERED A PLANK RUDDER.

I would go ahead NOW and do the deed exactly as he describes.

OK will do!

What purpose does the underlay of matt serve in Bill's method?  Why not use just 3 x cloth?

Andrew

the mat just builds up thickness faster than an equivalent amount of cloth and it handles irregular surfaces pretty well. given you have covered the surface with resin, the cloth alone may be a good approach.  i went with 1 layer of 1.5oz mat and two layers of 6oz cloth. 5 to 6 layers of 6oz cloth may be the equivalent for depth of the whole laminate.

the area that will need particular attention will be where the shaft enters and exits the rudder. the topmost joint is the one most likely to twist. This area in particular got attention on A-231 with the core cut back a bit replaced with thickened epoxy, 'glass and a bit o'3m5200 added for good measure

good luck
bill@ariel231:)

p.s. we of course look forward to pictures, unfortunately i failed to photograph my rudder as a work in progress.

I applied a few layers of glass to my rudder this w-end.  Following Bill's how to guide first dug out then backfilled problem locations with thickened.  Next applied 3 layers of cloth to each side.  Then I added 2 layers to each edge.  Still to come one more layer on the side and then a final wrap around on the edge.  That will give a four layer side and a three layer edge.  Of course I sanded each layer smooth before laying on the next.  Didn't take as many pics as I should have but the epoxy was flying!!!

Andrew

Andrew

looks great... am i missing something. where is the hole for the rudder strap (maybe it's just the resolution of the picture)?

mean while.. i've opened the top of my rudder (A-231) for a look around after a 11 years of service. yup, as expected the core was moist around the entry point for the rudder shaft. and mostly dry again about a hand span away. I'll post some pictures this weekend.

cheers,
bill@ariel231:)

No nothing missing.  I plan to rout out a new slot for the grungeon strap.  This will be done in the region of thickened epoxy you see in the picture.

One thing that I'm a bit unclear about is the whole issue of water in the rudder.  Now a "naked" rudder must be saturated with water.  I know mine was even with all that bottom paint.  An encapsulated rudder may also get a bit wet.  So what's the difference between these scenarios. Does the encapsulation provide a better environment for rot (lack of fresh seawater exchange, low O2 gradient, darkness?).  

I am hoping that this rudder  glass job will provide me with service until at least the next haulout.  Maybe, if I'm lucky, longer than that.  I feel good about the rudder itself now but the bronze is is fairly poor condition.

Will post finished product pics shortly.

Andrew

Andrew

for me, skinning the rudder it was a chance to bind together a loose collection of parts with a mix of prior repairs into a solid whole. A side benefit is a smooth skin. it's actually pretty dry in there since the skin has not delaminated. i make a habit to check this every season by sounding the rudder with a mallet or screw driver handle. if it were really soaked, i'd  strip the glass back, dry it out and start again.

not too worried about rot, it takes both water AND air to be an issue. This is the first season i've seen any change on A-231, and the repair is a small region where the rudder shaft enters the blade. I opened the rudder out of curiosity as much as any other reason.

cheers,
bill@ariel231

ps. Now i understand what you are doing with the slot for the rudder strap (i did the same thing with a dremel).

Andrew,
How 'bout that!  Rudder looking good - those open-end wrenches should add a whole lota strength to the layup!;)


BIG LITTLE WORK.
Dremel  has no sawblade arbor cutters except itty bitty teeny weeny ones.  For a long time I've used a  #542 wheel to cut and work frp.  Especially tight curves.  But Dremel in their wisdom decided to obsolete them (they were a 1" scalloped metal wheel with carbide grit on both sides - which wore out too quick for me) - now there is #543 which is similar but has the grit only on the bottom of the wheel.  Now it can't do any slice cutting.  But you can sculpt with the grit on the bottom. $16 an arbored bit.:eek:

CUT FRP WITH DREMEL #426!
I was forced to try the 1 1/4" #426 reinforced (carborundum?) cut-off wheels.  They come 5 to a pack for around $10, you assemble one onto an arbor and cut fiberglass reinforced plastic to your heart's content.  They are thinner than the grit blade, cut deeper, cut quickly, throw little glass dust. Recently had to cut about 20' of 1/8" thick frp.  That was cutting down into the surface and following a line.  Don't think I changed  at all the diameter of the one wheel I used.  Very:cool:

The only problem was lugging the tool constantly.:rolleyes:

I bought my first dremel tool in 1991 and I still use the same one:).  Sometimes have to smack it to get it to start (brushes are prob very worn down!).  I bought their flex head attachment which makes working in some situations easier.  Gotta remember to keep the tool out of the dirt.

It is hard to lay glass in 20 knots of wind hence the place holder wrenches!!:D

Well the rudder is finally finished.  Four layers FRP all round.  I think I used 6 OZ cloth but I don't really know fibreglass??  Came out pretty good.  Doesn't look so in these pictures but the surface is like glass.  Had some real problems with bubbles forming under the matt in the first few layers.  Worked like crazy to get them out but they just kept forming. This wasn't a problem in the last two layers.  Funny struggling with this made me completely understand the principle of vaccum bagging even though before I really hadn't a clue what is was all about!!  I guess the rudder wasn't fully sealed even though I had covered it with two coats of resin.  Just needs some bottom paint and we'll hang her back up.  Naturally the yard moved my boat last week so that means I'll have to dig another bloody trench!  Maybe I'll take shovel this time!!

Anyway here are a few pics.  The close ups show the areas top and bottom that I cut out and filled with thickened prior to glassing.  You can also see some of those bubbles.  Oh I will also need to cut in the new grudgeon slot.

Andrew

Andrew.

it looks good, hope to see it installed soon.

:)

On #259 which I recently purchased, the rudder was already removed and laying in the yard. It had been sheathed in fiberglass, it has the 2 piece shaft, the top shaft was hollow thin walled stainless steel, bent and shaped to clear a prop. The bottom shaft was bronze that had 4 ground flat areas with 3/8 stainless wood screws holding the shaft to the rudder. I had second thoughts about even taking it because it appeared to be destined for the trash heap. Today after reading this thread I went out and took a grinder to the fiberglass to see what lay beneath, Well to my  surprise there is a new oak rudder attached to that shaft. I ground down one side and found the stainless shaft was held on to the rudder by 2 sheet rock screws, also, it is a 2 plank design and the planks are held together by 2 per side fiberglass 2.5wide x4.5 long x1/4 thick straps which are countersunk and screwed to the rudder. When feathering the edge to remove the coating on the opposite side I found the fiberglass didn't stick to the wood. I was able to slide a gasket scraper under the glass and remove the entire side with no grinding at all. There is also no bevel for the lower shaft, it is cut back flat for the shaft to clear the hull.
 My questions are : Should I cut the leading edge back  a couple of inches and replace with new wood to allow for a bevel for mounting a new 1 piece shaft? Why didn't the glass stick to the wood? It doesn't appear that this rudder was ever used, which is very very fortunate for the boat owner judging from what I found as a repair. Should this rudder be sheathed in fiberglass when I finish with repairs? Thanks

Hello carl291'
bill231 has to lead you out of this one!

The rudder you describe sounds like a nightmare to me.  It sounds like everything wrong that could be wrong was done to it.  Really.  It even sounds like polyester was used instead of epoxy.  The s.s. tube is insane, oak should never be sheathed with glass, and so forth.  Perhaps Bill will help you find a way out.
But others on this Board have talked of their experiences, and some have posted pictures.

Photos will help if you can post some.  It is hard to 'see' the rudder even as you describe it.  It sounds to me like you should build a new rudder.  The one you got won't fly!

What is your experience with fiberglass and two part plastic?  Many people here have built and/or rebuilt rudders for their Ariels.  Pick a style you might like to do and start from there.  Do you need a rudder with an aperture?  Do you feel OK with a plywood rudder?  Do you want an traditional rudder of bronze and mahogany?  How about a fiberglass and foam one? etc.etc.

Carl

I agree with Ebb.. we'll need to pictures for consultation. From the description of the materials it sounds like you will be better off starting with a new rudder built to the drawings in moderator Bill's book. Plank, Plywood or foam could all be built to those dimensions.

good luck
bill@ariel231:(

Ebb & Bill ,
 Thanks for the reply, I tried to load pictures today but I'm on dial up and after an hour of trying gave up.
 I think you both confirm my feelings on simply starting over from scratch, which is what I thought when I first viewed the rudder. It's a pity someone worked a nice piece of oak into firewood.
 The only work I've done with  fiberglass and resin is with race car body parts, mounting and bonding fiberglass body panels to steel frames and such.
 The plywood sheathed rudder seems a good alternative, I'll have to revisit that post.
 Ironically I also just bought a Pearson Electra that had been in covered storage and not used in 18 years, It came with 3 rudders, the original mahogany, a plywood sheathed and a composet. All of which are good , go figure,

Starting on pg11 of this thread, this method uses plywood to build the rudder.
It would be most useful for a rudder with an aperture, and relatively simple and elegant way for a single piece straight shaft

It uses the same 1" silicon bronze rod for the shaft and smaller available bronze rod drilled through - or tapped into the shaft could be done without welding.`
I believe the plywood could be sheathed or wrapped in glass or just sealed and epoxied if you want the traditional/restored look of  plank married to the shaft.  
Without thinking twice,  I would use Hydrotek meranti  plywood from a well established dealer.  British Standard: BS 1088.  No american plywood merits this high grade.  It is  perfect plywood if you are following mrgnstrn's method because it is clean, tight, voidless,  modestly priced material for woodworking tools  It would make a really fine plywood rudder imco.

This rudder when sealed  well will probably take extended drying out periods if the boat is pulled for the winter or for traveling.
If put together with good epoxy it would last another 40 years.  Damage would be fairly easy to repair - and if it had to be wrapped with fiberglass later to keep it going, that could be accomplished simply.  BS-1088 meranti is engineered from red lauan. Imco it will do better than any other plywood underwater BUT edges must be totally sealed.

It will make  the tapering and a thin trailing edge that much easier.  I have bought meranti dead flat, every sheet of amerkin ply has a built-in curve.  Flat material will be so much easier to taper with mrgnstrn's method.   Might even factor in a modern foil shape by spreading microlight filler on the flats and shaping with a belt sander - adding a light fabric skin to protect the surface.

ebb,
Where would I get that plywood from, an exotic wood dealer?
 I don't want to reinvent the wheel, but I was thinking that  a problem with rudders is the loose pins or rods in the rudder. How about if I miiled an 1/8 grove in the rudder shaft about 3/4 " deep and 75 percent of the rudder lenght, slip an 1/8 bronze plate(about 10" wide) in the groove drilled. pinned and peened the shaft and plate. Then "Swiss"cheese drilled the plate to lighten it and to add in gluing the two plywood halves together. Would this make the rudder too heavy? Would this be the framework for a foam and glass rudder? Thanks

carl,  There you go! That could work.

Milling that groove could be pricey.  You'd have more time at the machineshop for the number of machine screw bolt holes.  They would  create bumps in the sides of the shaft that turns into the groove in the keel post.  Could be done, but a pesky problem.

A shallow groove as an absolute register for the 1/8" plate is a thought - and then have it welded.  Everdur 655 welds well.  Bronze plate edge welded along the blade length of the shaft would hold forever I think even if you don't groove it to help the welder position it.  Remember when you do the machining that the key way for the tiller head relates 100% to whatever you do below in the blade area.  And the keyway is another expense along with the inset on the bottom of the shaft for the shoe.

To me welding is cleaner and simpler than a bunch of mechanical fastenings and a deep groove that arguably weakens the shaft.  Also the expense of material and labor will knock yer socks off!  But the idea of clamping the 10" plate on in your method is a fertile one - not discounting it - just that I think welding is simpler and stronger.


338's (third try at a) rudder is waiting in the shop to complete.  I choose to use 2" wide 1/8" strips of bronze welded to the shaft in narrow 'V's.  The strips, while vee'd are welded to the back third of the shaft rather then off the sides.  This is to minimize the diameter of the rudder turning in the groove in the keel post.  I have three of these 'V's - one at the top, one near the bottom,  and one in the middle. They stick out 4", 8" and 14".  Doesn't sound like much weight added, but much more than the original rod  added to the weight of the mahogany plank rudder.

I will be using  structural pvc foam for the core and glassing.  It will end up weighing a lot more than the original wood rudder, no matter how I try to keep the weight down.  Even if I hole saw out holes in the V struts.  
There has to be method to the lightening holes too - you don't want to end up with a weak web of metal.

Swiss cheesing your center fin/plate will help a lot.  But shaping the plate along its length will cut weight too.  If you are making the traditional round shaped rudder you could proportionately mimic the shape on the plate.  But how much plate is open to discussion.  A single welded on fin or welded on non-continuous weight-saving tabs is a very good idea to build the blade on to.

Center plate a good idea for the plywood rudder. imco. I don't know how much of a fin is needed to anchor the ply to the shaft.  I'm always surprised at how skimpy engineers design these sort of things.  But it all would be glued together solid with epoxy - probably adding a few layers of glass  around the shaft.  Done correctly it will be amazingly strong,  Could bury  mechanical fastenings through the plywood layers and fin for absolute insurance.

I would entertain the idea of swapping out the fancy plywood for divinylcell pvc foam.  Use fancy foam instead of plywood.  Then decide how much glass fabric you would be comfortable with for the shell.  This method while it sounds similar depends on the fiberglass skin for most of its strength.
Glass and epoxy  are also weight producers.
A neat trick I saw once is to hole saw openings through the foam (after the foam is fitted, faired. and glued to the shaft and appendages) before glassing.  Then glue strips of fiberglass cloth one side to the other through the holes.  Then plug the holes with the foam plugs again, fair, and lay on the finish layers of cloth.
How many tie holes for an Ariel rudder? 3 or 4, more maybe?  Up to you.  But this method is as good as any mechanical fastening could possibly make it imco.
Not only does this provide 'I-beam' structure - it also lessens the chance of the shell layers delaminating off the foam!!!  PVC foam and epoxy are friendly, but fabric to fabric insurance is soothing.   USE 100% SOLIDS  NON-BLUSHING LAMINATING EPOXY. 1 to 1 or 2 to 1.

Why not post pics of your ideas for feedback.

Wow , nearly a year later I have some pictures of the rudder and still no further along on a solution. The question is this rudder worth salvaging? Also is is pic. of the "new" stainless rudder shaft... very sea worthy isn't it??

Hi All,

I'm the proud new owner of Pearson Ariel Hull#426. I've read quite a bit of this thread, but haven't yet found answers to my specific questions, so I hope someone can help. I'll post pictures of my rudder below - she's looking pretty creaky (I can bend the outer third back and forth like a thin sheet of plastic) and looks fairly well rotted.

Does anyone here have an opinion on whether or not I should attempt a rebuild? Should I just reinforce it with some metal straps (and if so, what metal should the hardware be)? How risky is that as a low budget fix?

I'm tempted to just take it apart using the Ariel Association Manual instructions, draw it in CAD, and just run a new one on my buddy's CNC Shopbot. If I do that, which type of wood should I use? And what should I coat it with?

Sorry for all the questions - I'm sure there will be more to come. Thanks everyone for contributing to such a valuable forum.

Juris Grauds
Hull, Ma

Note: I just realized I posted this to the wrong thread and will re-post in the rudder rebuild thread. Thanks and sorry.

(file:///D:/My%20Documents%20%282%29/My%20Pictures/Boat%20Restoration/March%2021%202009/Boat_Rudder/CIMG5871.JPG)
(file:///D:/My%20Documents%20%282%29/My%20Pictures/Boat%20Restoration/March%2021%202009/Boat_Rudder/CIMG5871.JPG)

At first glance, the rudder looks to be in good shape. recommend sanding off the paint to have a good look. if there is no rot, you may just have to tighten up the thru bolts and repaint with bottom paint.

if you want to fabricate a new one, the original planks were mahogany.

cheers,
bill@ariel231

PS. By the way, you might want to put a Zinc on your prop shaft, the photos imply the last season of use did not have one. ;)

Welcome aboard!
There should be almost enough here from others on a traditional rebuild.
I would take all the paint off the rudder as a first step.
Then you can see exactly what you have..
and decide what you are going to do.

What ever your experience level I think making an original mahogany rudder is your first consideration.
That rudder you have there has survived 45 years and did pretty damn good.
I believe the original  Pearson rudder was a beautiful piece of traditional woodwork.  It must have been to hold together for more than 4 decades!

Honduras mahogany is still available and is the wood of choice.
Second choice would be old growth teak.  Probably unavailable or incredibly expensive.  However you don't need too much.


But once you get it stripped you know if you want to save it.
There may be too many issues.
You have to see how the bronze shaft and rods have held up.


If you are going to take the rudder out of the boat, follow the drill.
Remember to undo the rudder strap!
And look for and back out the set-screw(s) on the rudder-head, etc.
Check out the 'tiller head' threads in the Tech section of the Forum if you need to.  There may be innovations from former skippers in and around this fitting.

Juris:
I was in exactly the same boat last year.  We hauled out and figured a new rudder was absolutely necessary.  After I dropped it from the boat,  sanded it down and tightened up the screws it vastly improved the overall look and feel of the rudder.

After it dried out I also laid down a few layers of glass following Bill's methods.  I feel my rudder is better than new now. I was really dreading a new rudder build b/c of cost and time.  The wood and silly bronze rod will set you back a few $$ to say the least!  Better to spend this $$ on things you really need.

While a new rudder would provide a new level of confidence in your boat, look at yours closely before heading down that road.  Like Ebb said 45 years isn't bad but I don't think most of our rudders are even close to retirement just yet:).

Andrew

Thanks for your input everyone!

If I am going to skip the full rebuild, I am wondering if I can get away with not dropping the rudder at all. There is no play in the steering (out of the water, anyways) so I think the mechanism is ok - it is just that outer plank that is loose. What if I take a rotary sander to it, and the wood underneath looks ok? Since those screws look impossibly hard to get to (and are covered by 40 years of bottom paint), maybe I should just drill some holes and add some metal strap reinforcements? Has this been done before or is it totally poor form? If it is doable, what would be the best place to put them and what would be the best type of metal to use?

If I bother to drop the rudder, I have a feeling I am going to go all out and just cut a new one.

While I'm here - does anyone know if my boat has a bilge plug? I can't seem to find one.

-Juris

Quote from: JurisG;19170While I'm here - does anyone know if my boat has a bilge plug? I can't seem to find one.-Juris

OFF TOPIC! Please Search and then ask in a proper thread or a new one.  (BTW - please describe just what is a "bilge plug" when you do.  :confused:)

"draining keel" are words the Search bar accepts.
Whether it gets to what you want you still have to find it. b Sometimes frustrating.
As I recall it, at least one owner  installed a drain plug of some sort
which he unscrewed to let the water out of the encapsulated keel when his boat was out of the water.

Here is what I did.

Let the rudder dry out for a few days.

Sanded in down to bare wood.  Had to remove some of old rotten wood but was able to maintain the shape of the rudder.  I also dug out some boring creatures.  (By boring and do NOT mean not entertaining!).

Along the trailing margin there are a series of lag screws that hold on that troublesome third plank.  Dig out the boat paint until you can seat a slotted screw driver in there.  Torque these babies down.  This will snug things up.

I think I also torqued the other fittings but don't remember the details.  If you see a fastener and can tighten it up do so.

Seal with a couple of coats of epoxy. Then fill in the missing bits with thickened.  Sand this down all fair and smooth.

Follows Bill's post about sealing up the rudder post and gungeon areas.  I used Bill's protocol for my rebuild with just a few mods.

Lay on 3-4 layer of glass.  I used 4 x matt but if doing it again would start with a layer of biaxial.

Sand it down, paint it with bottom paint and you should be good to go.

Don't forget to order a new delrin rudder bearing from the Association (ebb had great o-rings he was generously sending out a few months  back).

My rudder post was def. showing signs of galvanic trauma but it wasn't severe so I ingored it.   You should check yours and make sure the brozne is OK.  Some corrosion is Ok.  How much is acceptable is up to you.  My was very surface related.

You can get all this done in a weekend easy cake.  While the epoxy kicks you can work on other things!!:D

Andrew

Looks YUMMY.

Only thing I can think of is make sure too many layers DON'T go round the ole ruddershaft.
BUT if you use Xmatt (epoxy rated matt) you will be able to sand and shape to your heart's content. without cutting through fiberglass woven cloth.

However, imco it would be tidier and tighter to take turns around the shaft with cloth.

Good point Ebb.

One can always widen the groove that the rudder post sits in if the leading edge of the rudder no longer fits.  I think Bill discusses this in his rudder rebuild.  I used a drum sander that matched the radius of the groove.

That was all exactly what I needed - you guys are the best! Gonna start tomorrow and I'll post the results when I have some. Thanks again.

Hi All, I started a "#426 rework thread" to keep all of this boat's work in one place. It looks like how everyone else does it. My first post (http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?p=19203&posted=1#post19203) has some good info and a question regarding the rudder removal. Hoping y'all can take a look. Thanks!

Update,  last season I had Alex Hadden of Georgetown Island , Maine build me a new rudder using the existing shaft.   After looking at the plans I opted to make a cardboard pattern from another Ariel and Alex built it from nice thick mahogany planks.   We decided that tapering it  on the trailing edge was not necessary.   I removed the old and installed the new by digging a hole in the boat yard dirt and jacking up the stern a bit.   I did not have to drop the bottom plate as the rudder slides out easily to the side once you remove the keeper strap.   I'll make a picture of the new rudder when she's on the hard in the Fall.   Best,   Ed

Quote from: Orca;15966The mud is a good part of this scheme if we try it. I'm not too sure why we are even thinking about this as I won't be able to fix it until the fall when the boat will be on the hard. I think we may try to jury rig something on the runt that is left of the rudder for the rest of the season. I always wondered if you could beach her on her side.
 
Using the same dock, we once winched the boat onto its side using the halyard at high tide to replace a through hull . . .so dangerous acts have been committed in the past. I think we have 11 feet on big tides but I don't recall. This is a dead calm spot so no waves are involved.
 
Any thoughts about oak?
 
Best, Ed
 
BTW I was a member of the board about 10 years ago. I'm very impressed with a lot of the boat pictures etc. I was pretty sure that my manual had the offsets for a new rudder but I don't see them. Am I mistaken or did I loose that page over the years?

Would anyone know how thick a piece of wood (mahoganey) is needed to build a replacement rudder? Thanks

Never seen those offsets myself.  Only the general dimensions.
You can find controversy as those drawings in the Manual also imply that a wider rudder WAS once planned for the Ariel and maybe the Triton.
But of course the shoe only allows a 1" shaft. And therefor a thin rudder.

Pics of the traditional plank rudder show them to be no more than an 1 1/8" thick.  The rudder would have to be almost totally flat and of consistent thickness to be built with the internal fastenings as we know them.
The finished rudder is skinny and relatively light.

There is no reason imco that a heavier rudder couldn't be built.
The only problem is holding back the bulk at the shaft so that the rudder can be swung.  The traditional rudder has no problem going the full sweep of the tiller in the cockpit.

Don't know that the extent of that sweep has been translated to how much there is to the rudder on the keel.  Any thickness at the shaft obviously will limit its swing because the rudder is inset into a cove on the 'keel post'

Can relieve the rudder wood at the shaft back so that the swing is maintained.
But that will change the flow of the water off the underbody onto the rudder and might create eddies or turbulence over the blade.  Don't know.

A thicker rudder will ease the fitting of the planks together.
Imco a rudder made of thicker wood begs that the rudder sides  be shaped into a bit of a modern foil.
Imco a keel hang rudder uses only the trailing HALF of the modern  wing foil.  An easier shape to introduce onto the rudder.
The curving of the trailing half of a foil is rather mild.
However a trailing foil wants to be thin.  And that is a real problem with a round rudder.
And maybe the reason round rudders are left flat.

I think a more efficient rudder can be shaped, one that is less likely to cavitate.  Don't know if this has been observed as a problem with A/Cs.
With curved sides the thickness can be carried further aft which may allow the third plank out to be fastened differently.


(Slightly different construction method.)
IE, if the third plank does NOT have the long rods that go thru the second and first to the shaft, why can't the third plank be permanently glued* to the second? Could be slipped over a couple blind bronze pins for reinforcement.  And if things work out could allow carving down the trailing edge SOME.

When building the plank rudder the nuts on the ends of the the long rod/bolts/allthread need not be buried in counterbore holes. The nut and washer and bolt ends can be notched into  the second plank.  They would be totally exposed in open square cutouts - tightening, loosening and adjusting at will.  When the rudder is finished, the square holes can be filled and faired with non-hardening putty.  When painted the holes will have disappeared.
Later when maintenance is needed and the paint is removed, the major fastenings will be right there!  The nuts could be backed off and the blade taken off the shaft without an act of congress.
This is imco - I haven't done this, but it appears feasible. Putting this out for discussion.


The traditional rounded rudder however goes back to a time before rudders were hydrodynamic.  It might be too difficult to give a foil shape to a round rudder.

Anyway,  with thicker planks some more dynamic but mild curves might be added to a new but traditional blade.
Might entice the Ariel/Commander to go a little faster and enjoy  a little more control.
???
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
*  The traditional rudder is NOT glued anywhere - giving individual planks some room to move.  The usual 3 planks are generally of equal width, about 6".  
The original rudder was assembled DRY, altho they may have used a thin coat of bedding compound on the edges and certainly at the shaft to plank join.
However, in this case, the suggestion is to glue  on the 'third plank' - the outer and smaller PROBLEM plank. It  interferes with no clamping threaded fasteners, not even screws.   It is free to swell and shrink.  
The middle plank could be an extra wide plank incorporating the third plank. A two planker,

But clamping nuts and washers  introduced into the outer edge of a less wide second plank is easier,  The same ease of assembly and disassembly of the rubber blade could be achieved in a very wide plank by mortising out the access holes at about the same distance out if a three planker.  
So much easier to bore long centered holes in less wide material.  
Resorcinol is the perfect underwater bonding glue for mahogany.  Maybe a rubber adhesive could be used....

I just acquired some 1 5/8 inch  thick stock (mahoganey). two pieces, 13 3/4 wide and 4 1/4 wide X 48". Hopefully I can get a local cabinet maker to cut this down to 1 1/4 " and end up with some veneer for something else. Certainly would be a waste to plane it down to size.
 I have 1" thick teak but think this is too thin once I drill for 5/16" pins. Anyone built a rudder from 1" stock??:rolleyes:

I just hauled my boat and this is her rudder.   Some of the wood is soft and the entire thing has seen much better days.

I'm doing a major refurb and I really think this rudder should be replaced.   Has anyone any idea of what I should do?

thanks

Jon
 
Type the word rudder in the search box above and you will find volumns of information on what others have done. Here is a link to just one small portion of what you will find.
 
http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?576-rudder-discussions&highlight=RUDDER
 
Also here is a link to a company that can build you a nice new fiberglass version (at a pretty steep price). If you decide to go with Foss Foam to have them build you a new rudder, they will need to make a new mold which is the expensive part and the reason I have not choosen to go with them. However we might be able to cut a deal that is better if they were to build two rudders one for me and one for you.
 
http://newrudders.com/?page_id=6
 
Currently my plan is to buy the marine bronze and have a local machine shop do the fabricating to it and build a new rudder body out of some 6/4 quartersawn mahogany I already have and then "possibly" cover it in fiberglass. The jury is still out on the last part.
 
Your milage may vary :-)

Jerry,

I have spent some time on the rudder board, but there are a lot of discussions out there and it's easy to get off the subject and on to another.   Having said that, I'll go through it again and see what I can find.

I think that I've seen a rudder that has been braced like this one time and I'll state upfront that I don't know anything about it, but it would seem to me that when you get to this point it's time start thinking about a replacement and that's what I'm inclined to want to do anyway.   The shoe and the bronze couplings that hold the rudder in line seem to be a pretty fair shape and the fitting is snug.   Although I haven't sailed this boat yet, the rudder doesn't seem to have any play or looseness from the tiller.

You mention a company that will build a new one from fiberglass.   Out of curiosity, what do they want to charge and have you any idea of the turn around time?

Jon
 
When I spoke to Bob at Foss Foam I was willing to provide the silicon bronze shaft (because I wanted to make sure I got the alloy I wanted) and I was told it would cost between $2,000.00 and $2,500.00 plus another $1,200.00 for the mold which he verified he did not have to match what I needed. That is when I decided to build my own. But I have been a woodworker all my life so for me that is not a problem.
 
I'm guessing in the current lousy economy we have here in Florida (which is also where Foss Foam is located) they could turn it around in a couple three weeks.

Hello Jerre!
I recently became owner of an Ariel. I just fell in love with this old beauty and I want to restore her to her former self. I want to do as much original nice quality wood and finishes as I can while rebuilding her. I need to replace the rudder, but I'm not sure where to start. Can you tell me what's important to know about the 6/4 quartersawn mahogany. I'm not even sure where to find this wood. Please let me know some hints about finding and working with this wood.
Thank you,
Miro.

Thank you Bill for merging this thread into the other one... :)

  WRT the rudder in post #329.  These rudders are misunderstood.  The assumption (as I might have made) was that the planks seeming to separate indicates failure.  The fact is that you can go out and buy the most beautiful new components and assemble your rudder... and if you build it out of wood it is going to wind up looking just like the one you remove.

  The mahogany planks are drilled through, and a 'sintered' bronze rod has been placed lengthwise through the socket.  This is a pretty sound construction method.  Now, after the boat has been in the water and water has gotten into the grain of the wood it starts to do what it did when it was in the woods and surrounded by it's friends.... it absorbs water and swells into a wonderful solid unit.

  The problem comes when we haul the boat, and the rudder starts to dry.  The planks get gaps in them which we long to fill (I know, I did).  Some construct elaborate systems of straps or fiberglass coatings to ensure the planks will stay together.....

  They (mostly) stay together on their own anyway.  

  Wow, I am getting long winded here.  

You can make your own out of fiberglass.  Make sure not to put too fine of a trailing edge on it.  First it is not necessarily as hydrodynamic, but second the fine edge produces a turbulence that WILL make your rudder / tiller hum and vibrate.

  Keith did an absolutely masterful job with the rudder on Ariel Spirit (Hull #3) (I believe you will find it mentioned earlier in this thread).  When my wife and I delivered her from MD to NC we found that the rudder would hum and lightly vibrate near 5 knots.... not a terrible issue, but I would not have chosen this... especially given the miles we have sailed our little ship.

  Yes, in this long and rambling post I need to get to my point.

On Faith's last haul out (pre-cruise) we removed the sealant from between the planks, we fared some of the trailing edge with epoxy, then we filled the gaps back in with a bead of 3M 5200 that was then scraped so as to produce a thin 'link' between the boards.

  THis is tough to describe, but basically we wanted to fill and secure the planks but also allow them to swell when the hull was splashed.  I wish I had taken some close up pictures, but picture filling in the gaps and then removing and smoothing the sealant with 'valleys' between the planks.  That way the sealant was adhering to the edges, but not completely filing the void.



  I can type more on this if it is helpful... I suspect I may have typed too much already.

I will say that I did dive and scrub (caress?) the rudder often since.. and have not found any weakness.  I will likely do a haul out after the oil spill clears and will update things then.


 

As you can see our hard working forum administrator has merged this thread with the main one on the topic. And because of it there is probably a lot more information here now than you will be able to read in even a couple of sittings.
 
But to answer the specific questions you asked me, and since I don't know how much you already know or not I will go into detail. I'm sorry if I am wasting your time telling you things you already know.
 
I decided to use quartersawn mahogany because it is much more stable than flat sawn mahogany. Most people know that wood shrinks and expands as it takes on and gives off moisture. What many people do not know is that the amount of movement varies based on the orientation to the growth rings. For example, for all practical purposes wood will not shrink or expand in its length. While not 100% true the amount of change is so small it usually is not worth considering.
 
Take a look at the drawing below. If you were looking at the end of a log that was being cut into lumber you can see the boards I have labeled as flat sawn have a different orientation to the growth rings than the boards I have labeled as quartersawn. The growth rings are for the most part perpendicular to the face of the board in the quartersawn boards and they run more parallel to the face of the board in the flat sawn. Flat sawn boards will shrink and expand almost twice what a quartersawn board will. In addition because of the orientation of the growth rings they will tend to cup and warp much more than quartersawn boards.
 
To illustrate my point you could expect an 8" wide flat sawn board to expand by .05" when it goes from 8% moisture content (a good level for furniture building) to 28% (saturation point) while a quartersawn board would only expand by .03".
 
As far as where to buy the material that depends on where you live. Some parts of the country have much better access to lumber than others. I would look first in the yellow pages for hardwood lumber retailers. Then call cabinet shops in the area if you cannot locate anyone you can buy from direct. They will often sell you what you need with a small markup for their trouble. And if all else fails do like I did and search on the web.

Jerry,
 
Thank you very much for all the information you've provided. It is all very helpful. I hope to get started on this project soon, but I'll take a little time to digest all the details first.

Miro.

Original Ariel/Commander rudders lasted 45 years  (so far!) as two relatively unprotected  planks of brown wood under water.

You want Honduras Mahogany (swietenia macroplylla) lumber to replace an original rudder.
You need a reputable dealer.  Go where  furniture and cabinet people go.  Don't trust big box.

You want straight grain 5/4 or 1 1/2" lumber to begin with.  Any "honduras" you see in a lumber store has had its "quartersawn" pieces culled for veneer and high end furniture before it got there.

However swietenia macrophylla is the MOST STABLE WOOD IN THE WORLD.
You may find boards that have SOME quartersawn characteristics, I would go for those.
But you won't have cupping issues with the correct mahogany and stuff you choose from off center of these huge trees.

Do NOT build your rudder with african, indonesian or philippine "mahogany".  These are either punky or snakes or both.  These are NOT mahogany.
Use a substitute (spanish cedar, orange wood, locust, yellow pine, etc.) at your peril.


Use ALL SILICON BRONZE rod, allthread, bolts, lags, screws.   NO stainless steel.
If you replicate the original rudder, yours will last another 45 years under water!!!!:cool:

ebb
 
I agree Honduras mahogany is the correct material to use. But I think lumping African mahogany in with indonesian and phillippine is a bit harsh treatment for African mahogany. Khaya spp. (it's scientific name) and it's close cousins Khaya anthotheca, K. grandifoliola, K. ivorensis, K. senegalensis which are all brought into this country under the name African Mahogany are used all over in boat building. Just about every wood database you can find lists boat building as one of the primary uses for African mahogany. Here is a good example.
 
http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/hardwoods/african-mahogany/

I purchased two Honduras mahogany boards and cut out a rudder. This wood seems very light (soft) and dry compared to the two African mahogany boards I also have. The reason I bought the A. mahogany was because  the H. Mahogany seemed to feel like a soft wood while the A mahogany had a heavy and very oily feel.
  I took a scrap of the H mahogany and threw it in a low wet spot in the pasture last summer and it has been lying in the water and sunlight for about 11 months. I assumed it would be absorbing moisture and begin to decay however other than some color fading from sunlight it appears to have picked up little to no moisture that I can determine. This wood has surprised me, now I'm confused as to which would make the best rudder.
  Both of these woods were purchased on EBAY from Sergio exotic woods in Miami, Fl   Also, Jerry thanks for explaining quartersawn.

Thank you very much! I'm having trouble finding a source for mahogany in New England. I'm from Connecticut. I haven't found any suppliers through eBay yet. Maybe one of you knows a good one??
Miro.

:rolleyes:

Miro
 
These guys may not be within a short drive but they can UPS the material to you.
 
http://www.hearnehardwoods.com/hardwoods/exotic_hardwoods/exotic_wood/mahogany_lumber/mahogany_wood.html

I've seen these folks recommended quite a few times: http://www.mainecoastlumber.com/hardwood-and-softwood-lumber.shtml

I also had good luck getting mahogany for a rebuild of our vintage dyer dink from boulter plywood in Somerville, MA  http://www.boulterplywood.com/.

good luck, sourcing material is getting hard

Here's a question I'd like feeback on:
 
In regards to the rudder shaft strap (Gudgeon), why don't you see them on the rudders of the following vessels:
Morris 28
Bristol 27, 32 (first generation)
Cape Dory 28 (perhaps the 25, 26 and 27 as well)
Sea Sprite 28
 
All the above have keel hung rudders, and some are not even a one piece shaft.
 
What are your thoughts?
 
Ebb? I know our beloved vessels have them. Could this strap be unique to how our "original" rudders were made?  Pearson didn't build composite rudders on ours, if they had, do you think they would have found it necessary to add the strap?
 
I ask your input, as I'm not building an original configuration but rather a new composite, cored, sheathed and the likes.

You also don't see it on a Choey Lee Offshore 27 which has keel hung rudder.

I see it like this.
There is no sleeve-bearing in the hull (bustle) where the rudder shaft exists the rudder tube.
The rudder shaft tube is deliberately oversized to allow the whole rudder to be lifted up and shifted over just enough to bypass the heel fitting
TO DROP THE RUDDER out of the boat.  Haveta remove all that stuff on top of the shaft first.

The strap is there to make sure that it doesn't happen on its own,
for instance when you ground and the rudder wants to lift.
The strap is your only guarantee that if the rudder lifts out of its seat (it's only 3/4" deep)
it going to drop right back down into the bearing again.

As you might expect, I personally don't like this what seems like a ratther  funky method of keeping the all important rudder connected to the boat at all times.  Almost an afterthought.
My strap and others I've seen are/were flimsy to say the least.  Amazing really.
Mine was a piece of copper sheet that had its edges bent double on itself meeting in the middle.
But it sure makes it easy to remove the rudder because you just back out a couple screws or remove a couple nuts and bend the copper strap out of the way with yer pinky.
A lot easier than most boats to remove the rudder.
Making it easy imco is a good thing.

The strap seems to have worked these five decades.  I know others have upgraded.
I wouldn't go offshore without something a little more beefy.

The tillerhead is all that will hold the rudder in/on the boat if the shaft unships from its bearing.
However the tillerhead will not stop a freed shaft from dropping thru the tube.
And knowing the shape and age of most tillerhead assemblys there is probably  15 minutes befor the whole rudder slips down the tube.:eek:

Actually the gudgeon strap will keep the rudder from falling, altho it's not meant for that job.
We have discussion here on more substantial 'strapping'.  Might be good idea if you haven't rebuilt the keel where the rudder-shoe mounts!!!

Ebb,
     As I had expected, great wisdom and quality feedback once again.  Thank you for taking the time to provide the feedback and excellent explanation. I hadn't thought of the oversize rudder tube, but you make perfect sense of it all.
 
I wonder why Pearson found it necessary to build ours with oversize rudder tubes. As many are aware, Alberg designed many of the Bristols, Cape Dorys, and Albergs, non of which were built by their respective builders with this critical (in our case) strap.

Thank you Chance!
You know it don't have to be that much more diameter in the rudder tube.
A quarter inch space 5 feet down to the heelbearing would triangulate to maybe an inch and a quarter?  Don't know that for a fact. Have to remove the bearing at the top of the tube.
Enough.
And we got dem specs, mon!
I know one Triton that has a sleeve bearing there  in the hull (obviously to keep water out AND IMMOBILIZE THE SHAFT - Tritons have NO heel fitting - it's all gudgeons and pintles.
Proximity to the water and bottom paint etc make it a crime to try to extract this bearing, can't do it with the shaft  in place.  It's up inside the boat!  To remove this keel hung rudder everything has to be disassembled.  Then you can access the bearing in the hull where the Ariel's isn't.  It's not a good place to have a any fitting!

It would be great to see a time progression of Albergian keel hung rudder installations.
And see how things changed and if they progressed.  Our unique bronze and wood rudders required Pearson to come up with clever  (I say that gudgeonly), maybe  just as unique, solutions.  Does anybody else remove rudders like we do?
I know, I know, most NEVER remove the rudder!!!!


I kinow another Triton whose rudder was completely rebuilt.  He didn't get the two sets of gudgeons and pintles aligned with the hull aperture AND
the lower g&p casting  broke just as he was turning and entering the seawall of his marina - the rudder went limp.
An amazing sailor, he somehow averted disaster and ROWED into his slip.

BUT that is to say  our whimpy  strap gudgeon has a forgiving nature.
 Low tech but it works, so it's smart, right?
 just needs a little extra attention.


I know I mentioned this once befor.
A disreputable Ariel appeared briefly in the yard - probably for some paint.
Saw that the heel fitting was completely gone,  GONE,
the rudder shaft terminated in space.
yet the skipper had somehow managed to steer her into the harbor.
His gudgeon strap must have been doing all the work.  You had to know it was there because it was so cruddy you couldn't really see it.
Then she was gone.

ebb, When looking at the Triton and Ariel there are so many differences, the 2 shrouds versus the Ariels 3, the entire rudder layout. It would appear the Ariel is the blue water boat.

Carl,
Ayeno I can sing  praises of an Ariel.
It is a far prettier proportioned  boat than the Triton to my eye.
I like the masthead rig for its simplicity and its oversized mast.

And the MORC (Midget Ocean Racer Club) tag may have ordained the three shroud configuration to Alberg.   Any sailboat between 20' and 30'.
could join the club that was founded in 1954, "inspired by the safe ocean cruising of the 17'9" Sopranino."  So the club creates safety rule and ratings for small Ocean Racers.  Doesn't seem to be any guidelines available on the net.
We do know that nothing could change Alberg's conviction of what a safe sailboat's lines should be.  "Under the guidance of Bill Shaw, a handicap rule, stressing safety, was created for cruising boats under 20'.  
Because other small cruising yachts were excluded from many ocean races, the maximum length was increased in1958 to just under 30'.

I think the 29' Triton makes a gorgeous double headsail rig when it grows a short bowsprit and the jibstay moves to the masthead.  Why Richard Moot's inspired conversion to 'Sobriquet' didn't produce a Triton revolution is hard to fathom.  The pictures we have (Still possible to bring some up on the net.)  show a visually exciting sleek boat that looks  eager to voyage anywhere on the planet.  And turn every eye at a Sunday parade on the bay.

Regular Tritons have done just that.
Atom (James Baldwin's Triton)  twice circumnavigated.  Imco this is the best Triton site on the net relative to the whole aspect of sailing Albergs.
There are hundreds of generous tips and suggestions on this welcoming website.

He made no wild changes, (didn't he convert to masthead?)  and kept it simple.
He may also have added the third shroud like many owners do.  Not a big deal.
Baldwin has inspired me to create (at least the possibilty) of floatation in the interior cabintry of litlgull.
The Triton rudder is strange.  I wonder what Badwin did to strengthen his.
They have a similar (to A/C) dangerous corrosion  problem in the shaft where a bolt for the blade is attached.
The one I see on the hard in San Rafael is also thinner than the Ariel's and has added cleats to the outside of the blade for reinforcement.  But don't know what is original.  It is a wood and bronze but awkward in its overall design.   I believe the original Ariel/Commander rudder asbuilt is a MASTERPIECE. YET the Triton rudder  has been hanging around a half century on this very first glass sailboat production classic.

Don't know if one is more naturally a bluewater boat than the other.
All of the Alberg Fleet flies a bluewater flag.

The list of necessary ocean cruising upgrades are probably nearly the same for both boats.

Greetings:
     My name is Dennis, and I've owned "Sinbin" since 1994.  After 48 years, her rudder shaft came apart in my hands as I was dropping it down for inspection. I was happy it broke because I was on terra firma.  Thanks to this discussion, I have, through the years, collected a stock tiller cap, a stock rudder bearing, and now a new rudder shoe thanks to a fine gentleman by the name of Chance.
     Svendsen's Boat Works in Alameda replaced the upper and lower shafts, the six attachment screws and the gudgeon, all in bronze.  Excellent work and reasonable rates. I now realize I've had sloppy steering for 18 years.
     Anyway, I'd like to thank you folks for the info, and I'd like to recommend Svendsen's for your repairs.

In my opinion a new new rudder with  1" bronze shaft, the upper part bent to the original spec, plus the machining for the tiller head and the bottom that sits in the shoe... is a major undertaking.... requiring a great deal of expertise.

Plus reproducing the inner rod attachments for the mahogany blade, and that woodwork itself...  really impressive !   It's good to know that master carpenters still employ their art.
And that Svendsens, a fine independant chandlery and rigging shop,  is still in business,  and can do the work.

It's great  you decided to replace the old with the same wonderful original rudder.  An amazing combo of bronze and wood that will live  unseen and underwater, for the most part,
for another half century ! !:cool:

Thanks.  I figure if it's only once in 48 years, it can be done right.  FYI - just made contact with Chesapeake Fasteners @ 800 315 8808 for some more silicon bronze fasteners.  I am optimistic about them.
                                                                    -D.

Craig, How has the seaming with 5200 worked out? I am getting close to doing the same with #331 before bottomcoat. Did you strip the rudder of bottem paint before applying the 5200?

Tim

Quote from: c_amos;21332Thank you Bill for merging this thread into the other one... :)

  WRT the rudder in post #329.  These rudders are misunderstood.  The assumption (as I might have made) was that the planks seeming to separate indicates failure.  The fact is that you can go out and buy the most beautiful new components and assemble your rudder... and if you build it out of wood it is going to wind up looking just like the one you remove.

  The mahogany planks are drilled through, and a 'sintered' bronze rod has been placed lengthwise through the socket.  This is a pretty sound construction method.  Now, after the boat has been in the water and water has gotten into the grain of the wood it starts to do what it did when it was in the woods and surrounded by it's friends.... it absorbs water and swells into a wonderful solid unit.

  The problem comes when we haul the boat, and the rudder starts to dry.  The planks get gaps in them which we long to fill (I know, I did).  Some construct elaborate systems of straps or fiberglass coatings to ensure the planks will stay together.....

  They (mostly) stay together on their own anyway.  

  Wow, I am getting long winded here.  

You can make your own out of fiberglass.  Make sure not to put too fine of a trailing edge on it.  First it is not necessarily as hydrodynamic, but second the fine edge produces a turbulence that WILL make your rudder / tiller hum and vibrate.

  Keith did an absolutely masterful job with the rudder on Ariel Spirit (Hull #3) (I believe you will find it mentioned earlier in this thread).  When my wife and I delivered her from MD to NC we found that the rudder would hum and lightly vibrate near 5 knots.... not a terrible issue, but I would not have chosen this... especially given the miles we have sailed our little ship.

  Yes, in this long and rambling post I need to get to my point.

On Faith's last haul out (pre-cruise) we removed the sealant from between the planks, we fared some of the trailing edge with epoxy, then we filled the gaps back in with a bead of 3M 5200 that was then scraped so as to produce a thin 'link' between the boards.

  THis is tough to describe, but basically we wanted to fill and secure the planks but also allow them to swell when the hull was splashed.  I wish I had taken some close up pictures, but picture filling in the gaps and then removing and smoothing the sealant with 'valleys' between the planks.  That way the sealant was adhering to the edges, but not completely filing the void.



  I can type more on this if it is helpful... I suspect I may have typed too much already.

I will say that I did dive and scrub (caress?) the rudder often since.. and have not found any weakness.  I will likely do a haul out after the oil spill clears and will update things then.


 

I concur w/Mr. Amos. Caulking the rudder is not necessary After caulking dry seams, I've found that as the wood swells due to moisture, it pushes the caulk out of the seams leaving one with wasted effort.  Not being a racer, I don't like to remove paint.  I figure the more coats over the mahogany  the better.  Also, have had good results keeping the moisture in the wooden rudder by wrapping it in plastic after it's surface dry.
      Have fun with your boat!
   -Dennis

I was sailing under the Golden Gate Bridge yesterday when all of a sudden the tiller came off in my hand.  The 2 forks on the bronze tiller head failed, without warning.  Luckily conditions were not too severe and we were able to motor back using vise grips as a tiller.

Is there anybody in SAn Francisco area that might sell the tiller head or do I need the whole assembly?  The rudder post is 1 inch diameter, keyed to aft.

-Bob, Ariel 100

Hi Bob.  Let me crawl around the garage and see what I come up with. Will know something by tomorrow.  My number is 831 685 1560.   -Dennis

Bob of A100:  The last two posts seem to have gone to Davey Jones - they've disappeared from my screen.  I found Sinbin's 50 year old tiller cap and fork in the garage.  If you're interested, the number is 831 685 1560 anytime.    -Dennis

I replaced the original on A-24 with a stronger one and held on to the original.  If anyone needs one, let me know as I now have a different boat and have no need for it.  

Tim

Looks just like mine, but I kept the bolts.

Bob of A100:  Got your msg.  Need your e mail address.  Thanks, Dennis.

I just recently had a haulout at Svedsen's and noticed some of the notorious corrosion of the bronze rudder shaft at the water line. It was pink (dezincification?) and appeared a little thin. I had the rudder taken off for a closer inspection. It looked a little worn, and so I decided to have Svedsen's replace it with a 316L stainless shaft.

After they took the rudder off the shaft, it was clear that there was only about a tenth of an inch of uncorroded bronze holding the shaft together at the waterline and at each fastener penetration hole! One hard shove and I would have snapped the shaft. So my purpose for posting this is to caution the reader that if any corrosion is present - it may be a lot worse than it appears.  The corrosion easily hides in the areas covered by the rudder and attachment screws.

I'm glad I had it replaced because I had to traverse the Golden Gate Bar in heavy swell to get back to Half Moon Bay, and for the first time I had to navigate over the bar all the way out to the end of the deep water ("main ship") channel to avoid plunging breakers on either side.  This was my tenth crossing in and out through the Golden Gate Channel, and the swells from the recent storms made it exciting - I wouldn't ever want more excitement. I'm posting here the course that I took over the bar and the full voyage. I had 10 foot following seas all the way back to Half Moon Bay (surfing at 6 to 8 knots!), where I had to reverse the rudder every 10 seconds to compensate for reversed flow across the rudder caused by oncoming swells. The rudder got quite a workout and the new shaft was essential!

Had I not followed the proper course to avoid the breakers and avoided going through at max ebb tide, I am sure I would not have made it across the bar in those conditions. Previously, I'd always been able to plan my bar crossings in less than 6 foot swells, but this time of year, I could have been trapped in the Bay for some time waiting for those benign conditions to develop. I highly recommend this article to anyone who plans to cross the bar: http://coastsidefishingclub.com/grey-beard-articles/the-san-francisco-bar/ -- especially the sections on "Crossing the Bar Tactics" and the mythical "South Channel" (why is that name even on the charts?). It's written for fishermen in motor boats, but the advice is just as valid for us. Capsizing is capsizing.

Replacing with stainless instead of bronze may increase the incidence of corrosion over time.  Rudder shoe and other below the waterline fittings are bronze.  

It's recommended that you keep a zinc on the shoe.  That will protect it and the lower rudder shaft.  

To protect the upper rudder shaft, I attach half of a jump cable to the lower portion of the tiller head fitting and drop the other end into the water with a zinc attached.  (Remove the cable clamp and attach the zinc to the copper wire.)  Of course, if Svedsen's replaced the two shafts with one, the upper cable attachment is not necessary.

Thanks. I'm floating a large zinc that I sink at the slip. I'm using stainless steel alligator clips connected by stainless steel braided wire (http://www.ags.bz/) I got tired of replacing seawater-dissolved copper - copper turns to green powder practically overnight. The attachment point is the bolt retaining the tiller head.

DO NOT REPLACE YOUR RUDDER SHAFT WITH 316L.

The only material to use is readikly available 655 SILICON BRONZE.

316L is NOT A PERMANENT UNDERWATER METAL.
If you are going to the expense of having a rudder made
use only silicon bronze.


You will be creating a galvanic corrosion situation with the heel fitting
and the gudgeon strap.  Zincs won't immunize a galvanic system.
[A338 came to me with a rudder of unknown stainless steel shaft that caused
the heel fitting to get eaten away.  There were zincs attached to the heel fitting.]

Bronze used in underwater suituations must have very little or NO ZINC.  Use S.B.
which is 98% copper.  It is as close to an inert metal you can have in salt.

Silicon will survive the waterline corrosion anamoly in the rudder tube
- 316L will not.   Bet on it!  This is especially true in a marina situation.

You already may have to have a new heel fitting made.  
Look for corrosion there.   You do NOT want to seat stainless into a bronze heel fitting.

Have a new one cast of silicon bronze  (to match your new S.B. rudder.)
Can be done locally in Richmond.

There must be an awful lot of stainless propeller shafts with attached bronze propellers in peril of corroding away out there.

Propeller shafts are not made with 316L.
Drive shafts of "Aqualoy & 17-4 Aqumet" are alloys of twice the strength of 300 series s.s.

Also the propeller/shaft system is 'isolated' from other underwater metals like the rudder.
You'd have galvanic problems with any mixed metal combo.

Best drive shaft and propeller would be all bronze.

https://www.google.com/#q=stainless+steel+propeller+shaft

For rudder shafts:

"Historically stainless steel 316 has been the preferred rudder shaft material. This material was chosen as it was non corrosive and relatively strong and widely available."
http://www.jefa.com/products/materials.htm

I work with a bunch of metallurgists. Their consensus was that, although no metal will last forever in seawater, SS 316L with an attached zinc will hold up longer than silicon bronze. I actually doubt the original shaft was silicon bronze. The pink discoloration indicates the presence of zinc.

Your friends are misinformed.

If your friend only knows about stainless,
are you going to ask him about silicon bronze?


I once had a curmudgeonery exchange with Roger Winiarski of Bristol Bronze,
who told me his  company supplied the original Ariels and Commanders with the bronze used for  the rudder and cast heel fitting.
He said they used manganese bronze - which has zinc in it.*

Now, I know you are impressed with EXPERTS -  and so am I -
but Roger had no answer for using M.Bronze for underwater cast bronze. (not sure about the shaft - but it appears Bristol supplied the wrong stuff for your boat which probably lives in a modern HOT marina.)
There is no answer.   Bristol sold the wrong material to Pearson (or maybe it was the cost effective compromise to the correct material).....  
But good enough to last 40-45 years.

Silicon Bronze is the right stuff.
Manganese Bronze is and was the wrong stuff.
300 series Stainless Steel is and forever will be  the wrong stuff.

for your Ariel/Commander rudder.
........................................................................................................................................................................................................
*Has been a long time since going through Bristol Bronze's catalog.
But I think I recall seeing a heel fitting listed there that specifically said it was silicon bronze.
........................................................................................................................................................................................................
later edit.   All common bronze plain and threaded rod, fasteners (machine cap screw and wood screw, bolts, nuts, washers) are usually silicon bronze.  Less and less as years go.  But you can still build a bronze armmature rudder with 665 Evadur sheet. welding rod, and common fasteners.  It'll just cost you.  Blame it on Wall Street.   Check out Top Notch Fasteners tnfasteners.com Also OnLineMetals, McMasterrCarr & Duckworks.

Yeah, I thought there was some zinc in there. Manganese bronze is bronze in name only; because of its zinc content, it resides squarely in the brass family. I agree with you that manganese "bronze" (brass) is the wrong stuff.

And, OK. I guess my friends are wrong. You never can trust those NASA engineers who fabricate stuff for research vessels...

Here's another reference:

"The stainless steels often used for propeller shafts include Types 303, 304, 316, and 630. All stainless steel shafting is strong, especially the 630 type (which is also known as "17-4 PH"). Stainless steel shafting in salt water is more-or-less subject to pitting which leads to crevice corrosion. Types 303 and 304 are probably worse in this respect, with type 316 being less susceptible, and therefore better suited to salt water use. The 630 type is probably neck-and-neck with K-500 Monel at this stage in technology for the winner in the "best shaft material" race. It costs more than the other stainless types, is stronger, and is less subject to corrosion."
https://www.glen-l.com/weblettr/webletters-5/wl43-propshaft.html

I considered using: silicon bronze, 630 stainless, monel (70% copper/30% nickel), nitronic 50/60 (http://www.hpalloy.com/alloys/descriptions/nitronic50.html), and even titanium. But I couldn't find matching fasteners in the same alloy for attaching the rudder to the shaft, which would have led to an even more serious galvanic couple than SS316L to the "bronze" rudder shoe. Is the rudder shoe also brass? I didn't see any pink in the shoe when I inspected it, so I suspect the shoe is really bronze.

So what I had before was a brass shaft coupled to a bronze shoe? That isn't much better galvanically than stainless to bronze. And still, it lasted 51 years. I'll have to tell my friends that a new shaft of titanium with matching fasteners and rudder shoe will be the perfect present for my 100th birthday (40 years from now).

P.S. The problem with bronze is - the only way to know it's true composition is to cut a piece off and send it to a lab for analysis. There are too many hucksters pawning off brass as bronze (like Bristol Bronze apparently did). The project already took 3 weeks longer than I'd planned - forcing me to sail back in winter seastate conditions. I sail my boat at least once a week - it's not a museum piece that I can take forever to restore.

Doing a little more research...

My best guess (without a lab analysis) is that what I had before with the original rudder shaft was Admiralty Brass with a Silicon Bronze rudder shoe. On the galvanic scale* that would be:

60. Admiralty brass (rudder shaft), coupled to
70. Silicone Bronze 655 (rudder shoe)

What I have now is:

76. Stainless steel 316L (passive) (rudder shaft), coupled to
70. Silicone Bronze 655 (rudder shoe)

So 60 coupled to 70 is worse than 76 coupled to 70. The 316L shaft is closer on the galvanic scale than the original brass rudder shaft. The corrosion pattern is reversed - now the shoe has become the anode - but that can be mitigated with a sacrificial zinc anode.


*Reference: “Galvanic Series of Metals in Sea Water” from Army Missile Command Report RS-TR-67-11, "Practical Galvanic Series."

Bronze and stainless are often paired.  Like turnbuckles, sleeve bearings.
And bronze propeller nuts on Aqualoy shafts.
The game changes IN sea water,  which is a fine electrolite.
Stainless needs oxygen to be happy.
If you sail more than sit, moving water may be the solution!

Check the heel fitting socket as often as you can,
until you find the best way to zinc.


[A bronze bolt was added by thru-drilling the fitting to attach a zinc onto A338's heel fitting.....
and it did not seem to have worked at all.  But it may have been a desperate and
too late fix by the DFO for  damage that had already occured after the s.s shafted rudder
had been installed for some (unknown) amount of time.    The boat, before I bought it,
lived in a marina but was often sailed and raced.
There was extensive corrosion to A338's heel fitting, even tho it was zinced.  The stainless
rudder shaft showed no pitting or other corrosion.  It was a rectangular fiberglass blade
with glass wrapped around the shaft.   (In quiet salt water tests Aqualoy22 was completely
unaffected compared with 316 which suffered "random pitting and crevis corrosion."
http://www.wbmetals.com/shafting.asp)
At the time I thought the rudder shaft could be recycled  propeller shaft (which if it was
Aqualoy22 has   less carbon, much more manganese, chromium, nickle, molybdenum,
and nitrogen than 316 - and is also nearly twice as strong as 316.  And corrosion free.)  
Whether there is separation on the galvanicscale that would in salt water cause the
bronze heel  fitting to anode to a stainless cathodic shaft is only a guess.  However,
there was the result of the  coupling I had to deal with.  It meant having  a new heel
 fitting cast - and rebuilding the keel.]

.........................................................................................................................................................
316 vs 316L (//www.engineersedge.com/)  316L considered a more weldable version of 316.
The difference is slight.  I don't believe that passivation enters into the picture.  Here is an explantion
posted by Juan Crawford:  
"At welding temperatures, chromium carbides are formed in the molten pool.  
The carbides are precipitated at the grain boundaries as the weld cools and solidifies,
resulting in a depletion of the corrosion-resisting chromium in these areas.
If a part is to be welded, reduced-carbon 316L will usually resilt in better corrosion resistance
in the weld area.   If welding is not required, there is little if any difference in the corrosion
resistances of the two alloys."
316L does not have more chromium than 316 - only that carbon content is held to a certain level.
So it's a bit of a toss up.

Ebb,

I really appreciate your advice on this. Unfortunately, the highly-recommended experts at Svedsen's had already replaced the bronze/brass rudder shaft with their recommended materials:
316 stainless shaft, and rebuilt the rudder including installing stainless fasteners into the rudder... before I saw you comments.  What do you suggest now that "the horse is already out of the barn" besides zinc-ing the shoe?

Unfortunately the weight of my arguement was in prevention....
before I realized you are already committed to 316 for your rudder shaft.
Sorry, I should have changed the tone a bit.

I can imagine what the guys at Svendsen's might say to support their choice
of materials.  316L is very weldable, fairly easy to fabricate, and fairly resistant
to corrosion.  Cheaper than bronze.  And the guys are probably not Swedes!

Just have to keep an eye on the rudder system, every time you bottom paint
and change or rearrange the zincs.  Also, it seems every location in a marina
 is as different as every individual boat is when it comes to how susceptable your
boat is to corrosion.  Maybe you'll have no problem.

Many boats have stainless steel rudder shafts.
Might ask Svendsen to recommend and install  zinc protection for their installation.
They're the experts.  No, really,  they are!  
In no way is Ebb an expert.   There are real experts whose information and advice
can be trusted.   They are far and few.   So we have to take what we have and
deal with it.  Even tho maybe it's biased, compromised,  traditional, or plain BS.
.........................................................................................................................
Just bought some expensive strips of Hypalon (a polyethylene product) from McMasterCarr.
Complained that the black plastic/rubber had no markings on it.  How do I kinow that
it is actually Hypalon and not EPDM (another polyehtylene)?  Which it looks like, EXACTLY.  
We'll give you a 'certificate of compliance'.   OK, Thanks.  
But how do YOU & I know that the unmarked  sheet rubber is actually Hypalon
if it's not stamped or marked on the sheet?  
No answer from McMasterCarr for that.   But that is exactly the measure of trust needed
for a material (or by extension) work done:  COMPLIANCE.....  Leaves me feeling very
uncomfortable.  Even though I mostly trust people I deal with, there are NO GUARANTEES!
And no expectations.

Wow... I sure do love my fresh water venue.
(By the way, what's a zinc?)

Zincs are lozenges you give your boat to cure a bad ODE
(anode/cathode - together they're called corrode by saltwater sailors.)

Zincing (pronounced 'sinking') is the feeling you get
when you're damned sure you haven't done enough to save your boat.
.............................................................................................................
http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2013/05/30/photo-whe

A 157 has been on freshwater for 50+ years, almost hate to put her in the seawater but don't think I can resist going for a voyage or two (in water that I can swim in). Wonder if a composite rudder and shoe would solve the problem, would be interested to hear your thoughts on that Ebb. Dr. LED states that the navy used his led lights so there must not be too much RFI with his products.

After a certain number of years, an Ariel/Commander rudder would probably need to be rebuilt.
Threads here on Pearson Ariel. org have many fine and many differnt rudder rebuilds.
You may want to stay with the original bronze and mahogany because you want to restore what she has.   Building a new rudder is something imco any woodworker can do.  The original rudder is a beautiful piece of work that ties the folkboat heritage of Alberg's beginnings with the new polyester and glass productions of the Pearson's in the early 1960's.

If you are going with an internal engine you probably  need a new rudder, and all that goes with it: an apperture in the keel (which is most like there to be excavated), a two part bent bronze shaft, and propeller drive shaft with apperture in the blade.  We hear the original rudder was  two part bronze  - yours may have an insert (that matches the one in the keel) that closes the hole.
The rudder you have,  if it needs to be rebuilt for offshore, will  be the model for a new one.
It could be taken apart carefully.  Fresh water won't have done anything to whatever bronze was used.  Therefor, replacement of the mahogany may be all that's necessary.

The original rudders have lasted an amazing long time.   They must be a pretty amazing rudder!
Maybe you need not do anything until your rudder tastes salt.   Unless you have noticed issues with the heel fitting/rudder shoe, the shaft end in the shoe, the gudgeon strap, the unseen part of the shaft above the water in the bustle, wear at the top of the shaft at the tillerhead, wear of the tiller head and other etceteras.  If things are good here, or can fairly easily be upgraded or fixed....you are good to go!
...................................................................................................................................................................................
On the otherhand, if you have to replace, stay tuned.

I've just dragged out my new rudder shaft with it's welded 3-strap armature. (no pics here yet.)
On which I'll construct a composite blade of epoxy, glass, kevlar cloth,  kevlar thread and divinycell - applying  
NACA00XX airfoil profile to the surface  of the quadrilateral blade Alberg has drawn behind the original
you can see in the lines drawing on page 144 in the Association Manual.

The new thickness of the rudder will start at  the width of the keel
 - around 2" wide,  and trail to 1/4".  The 'airfoil' will be the aft half of the NCAA foil.  The traling half, which has a long fairly flat curve.
The idea with symetrical foil is to reduce the  drag of a flat blade.  Decrease turbulence.  And I hear, to stop stalling.
Airfoils are usually applied to more or less retangular shapes of wings, fin keels,  standalone rudders & daggarboards.
  But I see no reason why streamlining can't be applied to the nearly triangular rudder Alberg has drawn.  
Discussion would be great.

My rudder really doesn't look too bad. I am a little concerned about going out bluewater with it though. I like your idea of tapering thin near the trailing edge. I am going to buy a Cape Horn steering gear and an emergency rudder can be purchased to go with that so maybe there is not much to worry about as long as I have a back up. After looking at Yves gear and his movie I am comfortable with what he has developed over the years. He has encouraged me to outfit a larger Chris Craft Cherokee that I have but I have had it out in some blows and it gets a little squirrly. I have raced the Ariel in 25-30 by myself and actually won, and it was pretty laid back. I missed out on a rudder that went up for sale here on the forum, otherwise I would own a new one. If your interested in building another rudder let me know. I know it sounds crazy but I probably won't take an auxiallary, so I won't need the cutout for a prop

Captcraig,
Wouldn't contemplate taking the boat anywhere until you have taken the rudder out of the boat.

Might get all its history from the former owner.  Anything he has done for the rudder system.

I would recommend stripping the paint (using a non-caustic remover) to get a complete understanding of what you have there.  EG, you might find you have a two part shaft with a aperture plug.

If you don't do the work youself,  make friends with  a good traditional woodworker.
Look up everything the board has here on rudders.....there's plenty.
There are different ways to have a copy of the original rudder made that will allow a NACA00XX foil and a trailing edge.  

You might find a fledgling naval archetect to design the rudder.  
Or contact  EricSponberg //www.sponbergyachtdesign.com with the problem.  You'll be doing all of us a favor.

My solution for A338's new rudder is pretty radical and untried.  
So far as I know,  the constellated alternative rudder for an A/C has not been documented.
( Nobody has faired their rudder to the width of the keel.   Or worked an NACA0012 foil onto the blade.)  
The triangular rudder will be airfoiled.
Also going to use an untried technique (suggested by Chuck at Duckworks) that will sew the rudder skins together with kevlar thread.


I'm barely able to get things done for myself.
Can't take on making  a second rudder.

BUT THERE ARE PROFESSIONALS ON THE BOARD WHO MAY BE PERSUADED TO BUILD A NEW RUDDER FOR YOU.
.......................................................................................................................................................................
* A traditional bronze and mahogany rudder cannot be shaped to a thin trailing edge because of its construction.  
Don't try it.  There is bronze dowel, nuts, washers and screws inside the blade.
........................................................................................................................................................................  
It has been said by sailors that adding a foil to our rudder might indeed make little if any difference to speed.  
There can possibly be improvement in stalling rudder angles and going to weather,  but it's unknown.

However, the 00XX foil is an aestheticly pleasing shape.   The full wing is fattest back from the nose one third of its chord - the curve continues for two thirds to the trailing edge.  I've layed out a TWO THIRDS  0012 foil.  
To my way of thinking the front one third of this keel-hung blade is the boat itself.  
Since the foil is not a complete wing but just the trailing of the foil from its thickest dimension to its thinest trailing edge.......
if I put (on the drawing paper) a straight edge from that point of the fullest section to the trailing edge.....
the actual curve of the foil (the bump-out on the blade over the span of its surface) above the straight edge......
is barely 1/4".  
Not breathtaking dramatic.
This is using the NACA 0012  formula for a 1" half foil (the full symetrical thickness being 2")
I'm now checking out some 'bigger number' foils,  but it's obvious - given the max thickness of the rudder - that any change in the curve (like a more pronounced curve) can't happen using this series of section profiles.
Don't know if anybody else here has a handle on this anomaly.  A more dramatic curve is only possible with a thicker rudder.
.....................................................................................................................................................................................................
AN APPROACH FOR A NEW ARIEL RUDDER
Imco, with modern construction on the 1" rod**  backbone,  using welded-on plates and supreme marine plywood like meranti, epoxy, and cloth for the blade.....  it is entirely credible  to have a rudder properly faired to the A/C keel (at approx 2").....and also foiled to a cut-off racer's edge.   There will be a bit of fudging, especially where the rudder swings at the keel.
The trailing edge of the whole aspect of our round shaped rudder CAN be brought to a NACA0012  thin trailing quarter inch termination.  
It will NOT look weird, but tight, right, and handsome.  And it'll be a correct and genuine UPGRADE for Alberg's  traditional blade.  
It's the right thing to do, imco.
A round rudder is LESS likely to get buried in mud,  get damaged aground, or crab potted.  If I was going to do it over,  I would go for
the round one and make it with a cutout for the prop (with a plug) so that a new owner will have the option.
And not call  me a DFO.
(Oh,  lay out your hydrofoils on waterlines - not perpendicular from the keel)
..............................................................................................................................................................................................
**OnlineMetals - six feet of  "exotic" 655 silicon bronze 1" rod = $217.  
   OnlineMetals - six feet  of 316L s.s.  1" rod = $99.

A plug in the rudder is a good idea, I may change my mind about an inboard. My goal is to voyage by 2016 so I have a little time. If I can duplicate the original within reason I would be happy with that but a more high tech would be even better. This pic is an older one before I brought it south. A lot of that paint came off over last summer and I peeled some more off with a putty knife. I gave the rudder a workout last summer and didn't notice failure of any kind, but I will take it off as you suggest.

I'd rather be sailing

Hey Ebb, I did want to say something about the speed of the Ariel, Commander and how an improved rudder might effect the speed. Last season I raced A 157 against a somewhat competitive handicap fleet here in OKC. You can look at the race results of over 15 races I competed in by going to okcboatclub.com go to race program and then race results. No brag just fact. Yes I am proud of the results. Many believe that the handicap numbers are a bit high for the A/C and that mya be true, because in some of the races we finished ahead of all competitors. Rudys Commander has very slick VC-17 bottom with a very fair rudder, oversized main and other nice headsails. I believe his boat is actually faster than mine due to the very slick bottom. I would have to go back and count but I think we had at least 10 first place races for the season and won the fleet championship. My point is that our boat sailed very well and fast even with these objects dragging in the water and with a pretty rough bottom paint.

  Major Drag

My conclusion was this: It is very hard to improve on the boat as far as speed is concerned. Every little bit helps for sure but hull speed is reached and then some and then after that you just can't push em any faster. One reason we did well is the boats exceptional handling when its blowing like stink. Several of the races I mentioned were in 25mph and up. Its very windy here. Some of our competitors dropped out because of strong winds    Bill please forgive me for posting the mast base photo twice, I am a klutz on the computer.

One more thing, the reason I posted the knotmeter instrument is to say that I have removed it. I could not find a replacement prop. I am considering making a taffrail type unit using the knotmeter head and making a box to contain it, dragging a prop behind the boat, because the head still works beautifully. I have installed a modern knotmeter in the bulkhead but it uses power and probably won't last 50 years like this old one, lol

Captcraig I did go look at the okc race results and was impressed. Well done. I do have a question, why does Rudy have a different rating? Here in the SF Bay area both boats had the same rating. In fact when the Ariel class raced as a one design the Commanders raced boat for boat. Just curious???……..ed

Hi Ed, Thats a good question. I strongly objected to the lower rating that I was given but relented after a explanation from our PHRF chair. Our club gives 3 points to a boat with roller furling, the reasoning is that the tack is raised and decreases performance. I'm not sure that I agree with that but thats 3 points. I also sail without a motor of any kind. Rudys boat has an outboard onboard, not in the well. That is also a 3 point increase. We both sailed with a plug in the outboard well so I don't really agree with that increase as the weight of a small outboard is minimal and even ballast when in the cabin. My biggest complaint was that generaly speaking the Ariel is much more top heavy than a Commander and not as streamlined as a Commander. The PHRF committee didn't take that into account and I'm not sure why. I could protest but the numbers didn't seem to hinder me much although I did lose a couple of races by correction only.

Hi Craig, I guess that just shows that each PHRF board is a creature to their self. The comment re motor weight would be consistent with our local board, but the comment about roller furling makes no sense. While I agree that as a class boat will suffer going to weather, off the wind the same boat would have an advantage.

In terms of streamline vs. top heavy I think the key number would be displacement and I think both types are pretty close regarding that number.

All that said you guys are doing really well, keep going and keep bring home the pickle dishes……ed

Thank you Ed for the compliments. The offwind advantage had not occured to me. Check out my vintage stuff photos under the thread A157 in the Gallery. The boat I bought was in remarkable condition with all the old stuff in remarkable condition as well. Thanks again.

  I'll post some better photos

REALLY SCAREY !:eek:

Captcraig,
Look at Miro's post on this thread #341'
Your rudder photo SEEMS to show that same original Pearson rudder.
Imco you might do as Miro and take the bloody paint off.
You want to see what's going on !

When A338's rudder and everything else (except the rudder tube) was taken apart,
Discovered that the heel fitting (rudder shoe) was barely held on by its fastenings.
When I took it off I found that half of the bottom of the keel there was broken pieces of crystalline plastic.

The hull when it was made at the factory was layed up in a single mold.
That meant that the narrow hollow of the mold at the stern had to be perfectly done.
On A338 it wasn't.  The workers had not punched the fiberglass reinforcement all the way into the farthest corner where the rather short
 heel fitting is mechanically connected.  Even after 337 Ariels, before A338, they broke for lunch too early.
That meant when the fitting was attached with its original four pins, some went through unreinforced polyester....maybe one or two pins were doing all the  work.

I see in your photo at the very bottom that part of the boat is missing.

It does look like your heel fitting is tight.  BUT........
There is tremendous weight on that part of your rudder system.  Guess 30 to 40 pounds deadweight.
THE WHOLE NON-BOUYANT RUDDER SYSTEM, INCLUDING THE TILLER HEAD, IS BEARING ON THE END OF THE RUDDER SHOE
There must be tremendous forces on that fitting when the rudder is really working.  Assume that offshore  forces will be multiplied.

I would get that rudder off and take a good look at the end of your keel by removing the heel fitting  and suss if Pearson got glass down in the end there. Amount of fiberglass tenon inside the fitting is 2 to 2 1/2" wide and not much deeper.  A bit crazy... whole steering system...???

Basically the rudder shoe needs to be connected with the remainder of the vessel.*
Pearson getting it perfect by hiring Azorian farmers to jam glass and smoking polyester down into the mold with broom sticks (may actually be true) was a matter of luck.  Don't know about skill.  After 338 Ariels, breathing all that polyester, you got skill.  Ayedunknoe?

Take a good look at what you got there,  before you go briney.
.........................................................................................................................................................................................................
Also scanned the long c'amos quote post #355.   "Sintered Bronze" is not a description of bronze rod.   Sintered bronze is a high pressure powdered bronze reconstituted usually into SAE or silicone oil infused sleeve bearings.  
Plain 655 cold rolled silicon bronze is the most reliable material on the planet  for A/C rudder assemblies.
........................................................................................................................................................................................................


*A KEEL/HEEL EXCAVATION
  Of course there is no perfect.  And there are 100 ways to fix anything.  This is what we did, doesn't make it gospel.
When cleaned up, the heel the tenon,  that the rudder shoe was supposed to be mortised on A338,  was almost non-existant!  
Drilled two deep holes,  six inches straight up from the bottom,  into the keel.  Didn't go through to the inside.  
Can't recall exactly what size lag bolt, 3/8" or 1/2",  step-drilled the holes so that the bronze lagbolts had to be turned really tight into position.  Glued them in with epoxy. Had  hex heads, washers and a bit of the shank sticking out enough so that they could be wrapped in saturated biaxial mat...
 
While the guys who molded the hull didn't get the bitter end of the keel done correctly, they did stuff in a bunch of cuttings and matt
against the keel-post to created a back flow ramp so that bilge water would collect more forward in the sump.  This made for a very solid block to drive the bronze implants into.

Used California Casting's freshly minted rudder shoe lined it with seran wrap as the mold, filled it with saturated X-matt and jacked the fitting into place.  There was still enough  keel tenon & shoulder left to get it to seat exactly.  Had to plan for the shoe pins so we didn't run into anchor bolts when drilling thru the rudder shoe.  
We, Littlegull and I, think we have solved our Case of the Crystalline Heel from Hell.  Hopeso:D

Hope this helps some.

Thanks Ebb, I agree the heel needs to come off when I take the rudder off as well. The fiberglass does appear to be somewhat weak above the heel. The photos look more like abstact art with some paint on and some off, the wood doesn't appear to be in bad shape but it looks rough for sure in its current state. The keel has dripped some water out this winter so the heel may be one of the places it entered. The bilge looks great so I don't think its worked its way down from there. I ordered a rudder bushing from Bill and hope to start the dismantle soon. I made a lifting frame to make working on the bottom a little easier. I need some better straps and better post but its working pretty good for now. I lifted it off the trailer and hurridly blocked the keel and put some stands under it.

Searching will turn up answers to your questions.  For example, water in the keel:

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?604-keel-voids

Also, check this thread for links to more rudder repair discussions:

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?2379-rudder-project&daysprune=-1

Just scrolling through the technical threads can be helpful.  Using the Google search system described in the "Posting Guide" thread in the Off Topic forum is a big help in finding answers.

google> Building Peterson's "Susan" #9

Osage Orange everywhere!
Plus, it is one  amazing photographic adventure of a wooden schooner being built.  Glorious!

How abour an osage rudder, oh Sage?

Farmers here in these parts planted Osage Orange in large numbers as hedges along the fields after the dust bowl to slow down the high winds we have. They realized that the branches made good fence post. Of course the indians made bows out of the hard stuff for centuries. Fence posts out of OO have been documented to last 80+ years. Would be fun to experiment with it for a rudder. Its not easy to work with though, hard as nails and the older it is the harder, so best to work with it green. Off topic but my great great grandfather was a landrunner in the Cherokee Strip Land Run and kept a day book (diary)

Just typed a series of 'rudder' combinations into google
and didn't come up with what foggy pictures I have of rudders I've seen here.

google is inconsistant when it comes to how far it ventures into threads.
IT's not good at all if visuals are not matched exactly with words.

Have picctures in my head of rudders that guys have made.....but I don't recall where they are.......some were great, some not so great......but all should be studied.   You may have to scan major contrubutors in the Gallery to locate any photos of rebuilt rudders.

There is one Ariel site on google (Archimedes?) where a guy has videoed himself cutting his rudder in half to get it out of the boat.....because he is on the hard.
Looks like you are in a similar quandary, unable to drop the rudder......
Unable to make the decision to trash your rudder.  Really  hard decision.

But if you are almost certain that you will be having a new rudder,
you might study what others have done and come up with a couple of options.

TWO PIECE SHAFT
A decent machine shop can bend 1" rod using their brake.  It's really a mild easy bend.
When you have the bend you can locate and cut the keyway for the tillerhead.  Have them do it.
Excavate the keyway on a lathe - before bending. The trick is to get it exactly lined up with tiller and blade.
Mill an extra keyway on the opposite side:
Ria a quadrant? wind vane connect? emergency tiller? other design (Edson) tillerhead? shaft mounted rudder stop?
The bottom straight piece can easily be milled on a lathe for the 3/4" bearing.  
The Ariel rudder has to be made with 1" rod because the heel fitting limits the diameter of the shaft.  
And so does the tube that guides the shaft into the cockpit.  We're stuck with what we got.
Can see the original two piece shaft rudder recreated with meranti ply, epoxy and kevlar.  

Imco it is possible to create a strong modern cruising rudder using modern methods and materials....as already said.  
Came  up with some utterly rediculous ideas of how to design a rudder that is able to be removed from he boat without digging a hole.  
They all had to be abandoned.
However, once the old rudder is out, building a mockup out of wood dowel and doorskin can lead to ideas you share with other dreamers.
If that is comfortable, until you reach a concenus.   Then get an experienceed guy/shop to build it, or yourself.  Supervise it.

Ebb opted for a single length shaft.  I'm stuck with it.  Also had a very talented welder create the armature using everdur flat plate (instead of
smaller diameter rod like the original.)  Committed self to the triangle rudder.   Would change things,  but no - too friggin late!  

[If you take a look at LF HERRESHOFF's ROZINANTE (//www.woodenboat.com/) WoodenBoat sells plans, you'll find a drawing of this master's famous 28' daysailor.  
OK, cutaway full keel with keelhung rudder just like Ariel/Commander...... the Rozinante rudder is inspiring.
It's nearly rectangular in length.  If I had the time I'd mock up that rudder, maybe a bit taller, maybe tilt it up to fair with the hull like Alberg does with ours.....give it exactly the same square inches as Alberg designed.....and see what happens with the blade.
Rectangular blades can be given an airfoil that would work like an airfoil.  See if it can have some of the sexy roundness both master's have in their rudders.....but maybe a little less, just a little.......
Anybody see that herreshoff on their boat?]

A338 HAD A RECTANGULAR RUDDER WHEN I GOT IT.   Still have it.  
 It raced against other Ariels as SUN QUEST on San Francisco Bay.  
 Wonder how it did,  wonder how it steered VS the original that all the others still have?  
Steered fine for me when I sailed it.   My experience very limited.

Ebb, maybe you were looking for this on rudders?

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?1882-Commander-256-%28Ceili%29

Go to page 10, post #136 to see rudder discussion.  May be more elsewhere in thread, but you need to scroll to find . . .

my my my my.....yes,  this guy.....can't say:  Chance is 'one of the best'...
Chance has the best damn control of methods and materials I've ever seen.
Of course, that doesn't say it....whotduayeknow?
He's the master!   He does incredibly beauiful work!
The photgraphs he's provided are wonderfully detailed.  Even the ugly stuff looks good.

And captcraig will find time well spent visiting there.
Respectfully, me too.

Thanks Bill!

That is quite a rudder project no doubt. Inspired and on my way to the shop, lol

  Removed the rudder last night and it appears to be pretty solid. There is a gap between the seperate boards which allows a little flex when pushing down on the trailing laying flat on a table. Would love to have a new one but... Can anyone explain or show pics of how this original rudder is assembled?

  The shoe looked good from the outside but I could see a puddle of water down inside the shoe, so I removed it to inspect the heel. Sand and dirt are inside the shoe

  The heel in pretty good shape, shoe off, the red part on the inside is where water was puddled, the shoe cleaned up a little

Does anyone have advice to offer when reinstalling the shoe? I would like to use the same peen type pins if they can still be purchased. Also considered 5200 or 4200 for a watertite seal to the heel. Your feedback would be great.

Quote from: captcraig;26411.. Can anyone explain or show pics of how this original rudder is assembled?

There is a tech drawing in the appendix to the owner's manual that illustrates the rudder construction.

Quote from: captcraig;26414Does anyone have advice to offer when reinstalling the shoe? I would like to use the same peen type pins if they can still be purchased. Also considered 5200 or 4200 for a watertite seal to the heel. Your feedback would be great.

Here's a good thread by the PO of Ariel 24. Tim did some really great work. (starts on post #52)
http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?1558-Ariel-24/page2

More rudder discussions here:
http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?2379-rudder-project&p=24545#post24545

really good for locating the 3/8" FLATHEAD MACHINE SCREWS.

You can get FULL BODY slotted SBFHMS 3/8-16 from TopNotchFasteners in sizes from 2 1/12" to 16".  At very reasonable prices for exactly what you'd need for a rebuild.

Full body means you are not using allthead which for its size is weaker than FB unthreaded.
Look on the trailing end  for plugs.
Also I think I recall a small third 'plank' was (sometimes?) added to make the profile curve.  That was screwed on with wood screws from the trailing edge.


Assume the 'bronze' of the old sweet water rudder will probably run into problems sooner or later in salt.

C46400 NAVAL BRONZE is a tricky alloy.  It's an alloy of 60% copper 39.2% zinc and  0.8% tin.  It is traditionally used for shafting.
It's other name is Naval Brass.  But the addition of tin allows it to be called a bronze.  And it is pretty strong stuff. But not galvanically.
0.8% tin is added for an equal quantity of zinc.  It makes the 'brass' more resistant to dezincification.  But not entirely,  high zinc alloys (including 30% zn manganese bronze) always end up porous...... under salt water.
.....................................................................................................................................................................................................

Captcraig,     What would you have done if someone had 5200ed your ruddershoe onto the keel?

PEENING COPPER ROD....SparTalk Brion Toss -  Peening copper rod 6.29.07

  Thank you Bill, Mike, Ebb, When I took the boat off the trailer it was just high enough to place 3 concrete blocks underneath in series which by dumb luck was just high enough to slide the rudder out, whew. Ok Bill you talked me into buying a manual and yes Ebb I'm glad someone didn't have the bright idea to 5200 the shoe on to the heel. The third plank appears to be put together with drift pins and maybe the second as well. I'll know more once its clean. It does look exactly like the rudder in post 100, of this thread. I have been scouring the forum and searching. I'll check out all those post you pointed out soon. Thanks again

You can buy copper rod at McMaster-Carr.  It's easy and fun to hammer and peen rivets.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#copper-rods/=r0en3w

Drift pins are usually metal.
If metal (bronze or copper)  hopefully the planks will separate as they loose moisture
and you can use an ocillating blade like a Fein Tool (buy a cheaper one with a Bosch
dog leg metal cutting blade) to separate the planks.
Before you start cutting see if you can DISASSEMBLE the fastenings.

On the edge of the plank if they are wood - look closely for end grain if a dowel.  If flat grain it's a plug and there is
a slothead just inside.

If you are seeing a fat shadow in the crack, that's a 3/8" machine screw (flathead bolt) or screw. Not likely wood.
Remove the little 3rd 'plank' first (if there is one), see what's inside.  Might find some nuts and washers.  Or just screws.
Bolts you can get out of there - but probably not drift pins.  I'd be surprised if drift pins were used.

IN THE 1"D SHAFT (stock)
You really need the drawing to locate the fastenings.  BUT, of course you can 'see' the heads in the metal shaft.
There are three screws or  bolt heads in each section of the shaft.
"Upper rudder stock and lower rudder stock" on the drawing.

Top of the rudder at the beginning of the blade:
First fastener is a bolt - just before the bend - which presumably goes thru the first board  (it is listed as  6" long.)
Next fastening is a 5" #18 screw - goes thru the bent part of the shaft.
The lag screw might be difficult to get out.  Use a driver that fits tight and to the bottom of the slot of the head.
[Ancient tip: See if it'll tighten first, a tiny bit - that might help start it, then back it out.]
Third at the end of the bent shaft is said to be another 6" bolt.

Lower straight shaft has a 6" bolt near the cut out - at the top of the lower stock.
Assume that goes thru the first board also.
Next two fastenings are shown to be 5" screws.
6 fastenings total.  3 screws, 3 bolts.

You will note these boards are not glued together.  They were bedded with a non-adhesive compound.
This allows the rudder to breathe when it is in and out of the water.
It will tend to keep the rudder from cupping and bowing.
It's natural for the cracks to appear.  The rudder will swell closed again in the water.
Talked with one rudder rebuilder here who glued his together - and reported his blade had not bowed.


Toast that "solid"  Honduras M.  
50 years,  hard working, drowned, drillrd, neglected, poisoned, and still a champ.  That's amazing !

Hey Ebb, yer right once again. Screws in the rudder. Was walking by the rudder and took a look in bright sunlight this morn and there was a mahog plug and another, one fell off in my hand. Slotted screws ahoy. I read most of Tims Rudder/Keel project and that is an excellent article to understand the complex keel setup. Not as simple as I had imagined. The mould idea using the old shoe appeals to me. Thank you guys for pointing out those post. Haven't read the other project yet but will.

 The mahogony plug that came off when I brushed it with my hand. The more I look at the rudder the better it looks, the wood is still very dense.

   Good wood cleaned up, now for the rest of it. Sharpest edge on trailing edge at left and wood plug to right

  The plastic bushing was at the base of the fiberglass tube, it polished the brass. Original hardware, plastic bushing top left, new bushing in center from the Association.

All the rest of my progress will be posted on my thread "Ariel 157" in the Gallery.

(left side of photo - bottom 416)
On that head fitting.... that sits on the "stock".... looks like
it's missing a CAP SCREW.  Did you remiove it?


A few observations:
That screw  is meant to squeeze one of the cheeks it goes thru
around the shaft....so the tillerhead won't pull off too easy.
And also help keep the square key from moving around.

It's not a bolt that goes there!  The fat cheek is threaded to receive the screw.
The thinner cheek has no threads - it's meant to slip the cap screw
Looks like it's supposed to tighten the thinner cheek a skoch.....
BUT it's impossible to move it  by screwing in the ittybitty cap screw.
You may break the SB hexhead- fullthreasd 1"-5/16-18
capscrew if you  want to close the gap with it.

After cleaning crud out of the 'crack', when reassembling, before you
screw in the bolt, bend the cheek closed (1/32" - 1/16") around the shaft
with a 'C' clamp,  
(To make it easier, try  to 'pre-bend' it before slipping it on the shafthead.  Careful....)
THEN turn the cap screw in with LANOCOTE or Tefgel.... just barely tight.
Lanocote the key too.  I'd smear it on everything - keeps the salt crystals out.


50 years ago, when it was new, it probably fit pretty good.  Now the rudder head
sits loose  on the shaft.  Somebody here SHIMMED his with a piece of pepsicola can.
(onlinemetals has pure soft copper shim sheets.  Like a footsquare for $8)

At least one other owner has drilled and tapped his rudder head for one or two
316 SET SCREWS (10-24 - McMCarr) that penetrate into the rudderhead  KEYWAY
- to press the key against the shaft.
The problem with that is remembering them when it comes time to take it apart.

A great idea is also to countersink  the KEY to receive CONEPOINT set screws
to keep   the key  from slipping out of the head keyway.  Imagine the strain on
the top of the shaft there .....as you push & pull the tiller a million times.  
One more thing that removes slop from the steering system.
...........................................................................................
Photo at 415...  Oddest looking plug I evah did see!
Whuts in there?

I've decided to make a template using the existing rudder, so that I can duplicate the size and shape of the original. After that, dismantling of the existing rudder will begin. Hey Ebb, slotted screws behind those plugs just like you said.

While not absolute, because of the number of times a drawing has been copied,
this may get you closer to  Alberg's lines  (rather than Pearson's).  
That is an assumption.  There is no way of being sure that copies in the Manual are correct,
 (or that the Pearson rudder on the boat is Alberg accurate) but imco this is what we have to work with.

Take the rudder lines drawing (pg 170) from the Manual to a copy shop.
Have them zoom the picture to a 12 Scale Rule (1"= 1')
 
[Available 6" and 12" rulers - with  inch separations in 12 parts - rather than standard 8-16 parts.
Got mine off the internet. But an art supply shop might have the rulers.]

Zoom the drawing to a known measure of the rudder.
For instance, the lower stock on the drawing is 24" - plus the 3/4" that goes into the shoe.
So, at the copyshop,  you might scale the lower rudder stock drawing to an actual 12" or 6" or 3" using this one known measure.
With a very thin point pen, draw a 12 Scale grid on the quarter or half sized scaled up copyshop rendition of the whole rudder blade.
Then lay out  a  full sized grid  on your shop table, and translate the rudder lines to it.....almost directly from the master's hand.

Wood battens may help lay out the curves.
I have an Acu-Arc 1033-48 48" Adjustable Curve (a  bit pricey)
It is composed of a number of sliding interlocking plastic strips that easily bend and sortof
hold the shape while you carefully trace the template you have layed out.
Hope this helps.
...........................................................................................................................................................................
Took all Manual Ariel drawings to the copyshop and had them zoom and print the A/C to an exact 9 1/8" inch waterline (18' 6")
- thereby creating 'to scale' drawings which produce pretty much accurate measures - using the 1" = 1' doll-house ruler.
Another quick measure to check zoom accuracy at the copyshop is the length of the mast*: 15"......every 1/2" = 1'.
* exactly 15",  deck to the mast head, but not including the masthead fitting or crane.  
[The only Alberg heliga graal signed lines drawings are on pgs 144 & 145 in the Manual.]

Don't know that Pearson delivered Ariel's with an 18' 6"  waterline.  Has anybody ever actually measured??

Well I have taken the rudder apart somewhat and put back together a little bit. Thanks Ebb for that advice, I'll be buying a manual soon and using your advice to build a new rudder. I am going to keep the old for a spare and restore it as best I can. The third board (trailing board) had three drift pins in it and wood screws at each end. Its solid so I'm leaving it alone.   The top fastener on the bronze rod is a machine thread that goes to this nut and washer holding the first board to the rudder shaft.

  The second fastener is a wood screw holding the first board to the rudder post, the third fastener is a machine thread bolt the same length as the first but going beyond the first board into the second board (pencil is pointing to the area where nut and washer are still buried under paint) I was able to tighten that bolt a quarter turn after first removing it and cleaning it. I also cleaned bottom paint out of the crack between board 1 and board 2. The wood plug was only attached with the short straps and two short wood screws at an angle.

  Showing the wood screw

 Pearson plastic in the holes?

 The Wood Rudder is slowing appearing.

I am just about done with rehabbing the hull and deck and about to start with the repower project. I am going to install a Yanmar 2GM. The boat was originally powered with an outboard so I figured I would start to poke around and see what was involved with cutting the window in the keel and rudder, installing the shaft log and building an engine bed. When I started to sound the keel where the window should be I noticed a decidedly different sound. It sounded like a different laminate schedule than the rest of the keel so I cut a bit out and discovered that the boat was built for an inboard and they glassed over the window. A little cutting and a few minutes with a pry bar and viola. I have my keel window. I was prepared for a fairly involved glass job and now all I have to do is clean up a little tabbing and install the shaft log. I hope the rudder is as easy. It appears the stock is set up for a window too. I'll keep my fingers crossed.  

Yes, the rudder has a cutout for the prop . . . unless it was changed by an earlier owner.

Looks like I have the original rudder. lucked out again. Not much room for a prop.

Maybe not exactly time for that.  
But I happen to be in an email discussion with a lady whose taken the time to look up the
Pearson Ariel, understand it's challenges and dimensions... in regard to the Finnish OceanVolt
electric motor system I happened upon.
They have a saildrive and a horizontal, I call it, option.  Remove your Atomic 4, trade it for an
OceanVolt electric inboard, add 15.000..... Find places for the lithiums, and >BOP< happy
sailing forever!

Once you get past the brochure, imco, we are left one problem that really never has been
solved.  That is: how do we seal the shaft that the propeller turns on where it goes thru the
hull? There certainly is a need for visual inspection and, of course, maintenance to keep both
the newer bellows dripless face seal type stuffing box happy... and the good oldstyle lip seal
using cutlass bearings.  Both require perfect installs to remain dripless for any length of time.

We live in an age of synthetic rubbers and amazing metal alloys,  yet manufacturers still use
naval bronze (brass) for the bodies and unsophisticated rubber (nitril) for sealing.  Their
systems still depend on miniature set screws that are buried inaccessible  in their installation.
Victorian technology in an age of space craft and Gun Boats.

In our Ariel/Commanders, access to that bearing 'box', after the motor is installed, is, as I
understand it, impossible.  Except from outside.
If the motor is removed, I don't fit anyway under the cockpit where the stuffing box lives...

If we are setting the boat up for seasonal use, being close to haul out facilities, will give us
peace of mind.  If the boat is going foreign, cruising, and constantly in water ...  or if like
most of us we'll be forgetting about the damn thing... that last thing we want is a hole in
the hull  that can't be reached immediately....once we figure out where the leak is coming
from...   to fix. Ya sure by golly!

That's why I've always thought our OB option was the perfect answer.  
Can't imagine a damp oily foul smelling bilge that has to be
constantly pumped out by equally unreliable electric pumps and warning systems.
Even a constant bitty drip is a leak that can escalate into disaster.

Also take exception to rudders with holes in them,  both from rudder strength and steering
control.... Well, that's the way I see it....

How are you going to approach yours???:D

I like the electric but I want a little more range. I have a Yanmar 2GM that I think will fit the bill. I was going to use a dripless stuffing box. PYI sells the PSS stuffing box and they work pretty well however they need to be burped after launch. http://www.shaftseal.com/en/categories/300000001. I am pretty sure that I will be able to access the stuffing box and burp it by climbing into the lazerette and laying on my side. I am not so worried about holes in the boat as many seem to be. They just need to be installed correctly and maintained. I plan to install a shaft log http://catalog.buckalgonquin.com/item/sailboat-shaft-logs-2/bronze-sailboat-shaft-log-bearing-housings-short/10slw1002 and attach the stuffing box to that. I plan to cut out the cockpit floor above the engine so I can lay up a proper engine bed with a lip that will catch any oil leaks and/or the fuel drips. I have a jig to line up the engine bed so i pretty confident that I can get the alignment right. I did not recore the cockpit floor when I did the other deck work in anticipation of this install. The floor comes out this weekend.

I am thinking of making a couple of modifications to my rudder this winter. I would like to open up the aperture a bit so I can install a feathering prop and adding a little more surface area (10% of so) to the trailing edge. After removing the corrector weight from the boat I have a little more weather helm than I would like. Any thoughts?

Quote from: Bisquit;28205I am thinking of making a couple of modifications to my rudder this winter. I would like to open up the aperture a bit so I can install a feathering prop and adding a little more surface area (10% of so) to the trailing edge. After removing the corrector weight from the boat I have a little more weather helm than I would like. Any thoughts?

Presuming you are not a fanatical racer who has cut the handle off your toothbrush to reduce laden weight, have you considered adding ballast to compensate? I added 150 pounds of leadshot in 25 pound bags (#8 buckshot purchased at a gun shop for $2 per pound).   After much experimentation, I placed the leadshot ballast in the bilge under the forward inspection hatch. Leadshot bags conform nicely to the shape of their surroundings, with no pressure points. Your situation, and location of ballast, will be different of course. But adjusting the longitudinal center of gravity by adding ballast seems to be a far simpler approach to making fine adjustments in trim than modifying the rudder. Just an idea...

Quote from: pbryant;28206Presuming you are not a fanatical racer who has cut the handle off your toothbrush to reduce laden weight, have you considered adding ballast to compensate? I added 150 pounds of leadshot in 25 pound bags (#8 buckshot purchased at a gun shop for $2 per pound).   After much experimentation, I placed the leadshot ballast in the bilge under the forward inspection hatch. Leadshot bags conform nicely to the shape of their surroundings, with no pressure points. Your situation, and location of ballast, will be different of course. But adjusting the longitudinal center of gravity by adding ballast seems to be a far simpler approach to making fine adjustments in trim than modifying the rudder. Just an idea...

I think that would probably work I should have given it a try before I hauled for the season. I like the performance I am seeing since I removed the extra ballast. In moderate to heavy air (over 15 knots) is when it becomes a problem.  I think a lot of things are contributing to the extra helm. I have an over sized main and my jib is a 170%.  I should probably address it there but since I was thinking of modifying the aperture I thought adding the extra surface area to the trailing edge would not be too much extra effort.

Quote from: Bisquit;28207... I have an over sized main and my jib is a 170%.  ...

Good lord that is a lot of sail area!  When the wind got over 12 MPH or so, I would tuck in a reef and change to my %100 jib and A-414 would sail beautifully and balanced AND up to hull speed no problem - and no weather helm at all. That was my favorite sail configuration for the Ariel. Of course I'm not a left coast sailor, but hull speed is hull speed. :cool:

Above 18 knots, SF Bay sailors use a 110 jib.   Above 25 knots, we "might" put a reef in the main :cool:

Hi, I think for a feathering prop to fit that would be quite a large "bit" of opening up on the rudder. If you should decide to go this route, I have a feathering prop that I could offer you for a large savings, it's off a 30 ft Catalina. (A4 engine)

I may me interested. I have a line on a 3 blade Gori. What brand and model do you have?

Re my Gallery post, I'm trying to find a recent rudder build pictured on the forum somewhere.  It isn't in this thread.  It had long bronze L's welded to the shaft.  May have been two pieces of mahogany sandwiched together.  Maybe you've seen it?  My dull brain needs step by step instructions with pictures that goes beyond what is in the manual!

During a haul out in late July 2018, we discovered that the mahogany rudder blade on my Pearson Ariel was eroded due to alkaline conditions produced by the rudder zinc that had been installed on the rudder. The zinc was in very good condition after more than a full year in the water. The copper strap connecting zinc to the rudder bolt within the body of the rudder blade had been broken (likely due to metal fatigue incurred when a diver was cleaning the rudder blade while installing a new zinc). We considered repairing the rudder blade with epoxy, but upon examining the upper bronze rudder shaft, we decided to replace the rudder. The bronze rudder shaft was badly eroded in the vicinity of the top rudder blade bolt. Since other Ariel rudders have failed in this same location, and in light of the evident corrosion, we decided to replace the rudder.

The rudder was removed on August 1, 2018 in the slings just before the boat was splashed. The rear part of the keel was cleaned with scraping tools and sand paper to clean it and open it up in preparation for the new fiberglass over wood rudder, which was to be constructed of a wood and fiberglass using a stainless steel shaft and blade support structure.

While waiting for the new custom professionally built rudder, I repaired the decks repairs a few gelcoat gouges, and resurfaced the non-skid areas using Interlux Brightside one-part polyurethane.  

We hauled the boat again on September 26, 2018. The boat remained in slings while the new rudder was fitted to the keel. The new rudder was built on a shaft made by
of 304 tight tolerance stainless steel rod welded to 1/2 inch all-thread stainless steel rods that run through and support the rudder blade.

The rudder blade was built of Kiln Dried Douglas Fir 2X6 and 2X4 boards secured to the shaft by nuts secured to the 1/2 inch all-thread stainless steel rods. The kiln dried fir boards that compose the rudder core were glued together with and all voids were filled with West Systems Epoxy. The boards were then shaped by sanding to an improved more aerodynamic shape with a larger blade that tapers to the trailing edge as shown in the attached photos. The last 1/2 inch of the trailing edge was built of epoxy resin. The rudder, including the stainless steel shaft where it abutted the rudder blade, was then wrapped with 6 oz fiberglass cloth saturated with E West Systems epoxy, sanded to fair and then coated with Interlux 2000 Barrier Coat. The stainless steel shaft was wrapped with one layer of cloth. Two layers of cloth were applied to the rudder blade. Finally, while the second barrier coat layer was still wet, Petit Trinidad bottom paint was applied. This layer was followed by two additional layers of Petit Trinidad.

The rudder was installed in the slings.  The original bronze rudder shaft was bent, and the shaft had wobbled about in the rudder tube until the bushing was set into & tiller head in its place at the top rim of the rudder tube. A shim as used with the old bronze shaft. The new stainless steel rudder shaft is straight. When installed, it initially pressed hard against the aft rim of the rudder tube. The bushing was installed around the new rudder shaft by manually pulling the top the shaft forward, inserting the bushing, and then tapping it down into position using a wood block driven by plastic mallet. No shim is required with the new shaft.

The new rudder was tested on the day of installation by sailing a distance of approximately 10 nm in winds ranging from five to fifteen knots with seas of approximately two feet. The rudder performed well. Top speed was over 7 knots. Speeds of 6 knots were sustained while beating and close reaching based on GPS speed with 10 to 15 knots of wind.

The dotted line on the photo below of the rudder (shown before application of fiberglass) is an outline of the old (original) rudder profile. The new rudder is shown in other photos after application of fiberglass, after application of Interlux 2000 Barrier Coat, after application Petit Trinidad bottom paint, and as mounted on the boat in the slings just before splashing the boat. Additional photos of the old rudder are include din the follow-up post.

The photos below show the old damaged rudder blade in the area of the rudder zinc and the old rudder in 2004 during a previous haul out.

How is your weather helm? Did it increase with the added surface area of the new rudder?

Looks great by the way!

Question asked: "How is your weather helm? Did it increase with the added surface area of the new rudder?"

My Answer: The profile (surface area) of the rudder is larger. The leading edge of the rudder is necessarily the same width due to the shaft width, but the rudder tapers to the trailing edge, as can be seen in some of the photos in my earlier post. The final 1/2 inch of the trailing edge is epoxy. If you look closely at the photo of the fir rudder blade that was taken prior to the application of fiberglass, you will see a dashed black line. That line shows the profile of the original rudder. The line should help you visualize the areas where the profile of the rudder was enlarged.

Yes, the weather helm has been reduced as a result of the new design. While at sea if I am sailing alone, I generally use sheet-to-tiller self steering system to steer the boat, so that I am free to handle the sails, navigate and serve as look-out.  I am still tweaking the settings on that system to adjust for the decreased pressure on the new rudder due to the reduction in weather helm. As far the boat speed goes, my Ariel seems to be running faster to weather. This would be expected due to an improved, more aerodynamic rudder design.

Below is a photo of the old rudder taken during my recent haul-out in July showing damage to the mahogany rudder blade due to erosion resulting from alkaline conditions produced by the rudder zinc that had been installed on the rudder. Whether this damage was accelerated by the broken copper strap that once connected that zinc to one of the bolts tying the rudder blade to the shaft, I do not know, but I suspect from my research on this topic that placing a zinc on a wood rudder is not a good idea regardless of whether or not that zinc is connected to the bronze or steel rudder support structure.

Scott, You mentioned in your October 31, 2018 post that you purchased a new custom professionally built rudder for your Ariel.  Can you tell me who/where you purchased it from? Joe Starck (Commander Hull #43)

Quote from: Commander43;28444Scott, You mentioned in your October 31, 2018 post that you purchased a new custom professionally built rudder for your Ariel.  Can you tell me who/where you purchased it from? Joe Starck (Commander Hull #43)

Joe,

Sorry for the delay. I missed you post earlier. My new rudder was custom designed and built for my boat by Lighthall Marine on Santa Cruz, CA.

I purchased Commander #274 (Old Glory) 2 days ago after having a thorough marine survey conducted. The rudder has a fiberglass layer over the wood core. The fiberglass layer is visibly damaged and the wood exposed. Looks like she struck something at the bottom of Lake Michigan. In any case, after reading every post on this thread today and exchanging comments with an Ariel owner at the same yard, I'm torn on whether to simply remove the glass and refinish the wood underneath (ok, I choose to be an optimist here) or replace the fiberglass layer after drying/refinishing the wood core. Everything I've read, including Don Casey's book on sailboat repair suggests a wet rudder of wood in the water provides better "neutral buoyancy" than one covered with fiberglass and thus improves performance. But the same sources suggest wet wood is an invitation to problems. So what to do? Our sailing season is seven months and the boat will be in a cradle in indoor heated storage during the cold months.

Hi, I cannot offer guidance, I recently purchased a Triton with what appears to be the original wooden rudder in pretty decent shape. I'm trying to determine if glassing over would add strength and overall life, or whether to simply splash it and let the wood swell with the water and use it for the season. Will be interested to what people suggest.

Hi,  I'm a member of 'The Alberg Design Fleet of San Francisco',  which is essentially the former
Triton fleet of San Francisco Bay.   You may find us on the internet.  And you might find a way
to contact one or all of the active members.  The Triton rudder hangs on two gudgeons, and is
toptally different than the A/C rudder.  Some of the Triton rudders have had to be completely
rebuilt.  But I think you will find, if yours is in great shape, is to do as you say "splash it and let
the wood swell".
I hope you can find a Triton owner who will advise you.  Good luck.

I want to get  measurements for the total length of the rudder shaft from the tiller head down to the tip of the boss. I measured this the last time my boat was out for a bottom job but I seem to have lost the piece of paper I wrote it on! All the boats are slightly different so I know any numbers I look at will probably not be what my Ariel’s shaft is precisely. I did make a pattern of the rudder and that has survived! For Reference is a list of measurements provided by commander Pete some years ago and another photo of my Rudder in better days. At the last haul out the wood looks thin from years of sanding to the point where  the third board was warping away from the second board. It’s now still 1 inch thick at the shaft and less than 1/2 inch thick at the trailing edge of the third plank, which is starting to “fail!” The yard encapsulated it (third pic) but their experience has been that it’s a stop gap measure and it will delaminate over the next two or three years. So I will build a new one following the existing design. It is truly astounding how long a Mahogany rudder will last in salt water!

Anyone who still has their total rudder shaft length measurement hanging around on a piece of paper that hasn’t been lost should post it for me! It would be great if I had a few more than just Commander Pete’s. I know they will all be different but if they are all in the same ballpark, I could just have mine cut a little bit on the longer side, have the keyway cut a little longer, and then cut the top to the right size for my boat. I’m assuming, and that may be bad, that the differences in the length wouldn’t amount to more than an inch or so. But then again Pearson wasn’t known for measuring twice and cutting once! Oh, I forgot to mention that since I have an outboard model, I will go with a single piece shaft.

Also, my experience with the gaps between the planks when on the hard and the rudder has dried out a little bit completely disappear when submerged in the water. Those gaps are nonexistent when the boat is first hauled. My existing rudder is constructed with drift pins.

OK, hope this helps.  Happen to still have the rudder that came with (then called SunQuest)


I found the worn groove in the cup to be wide but the machining in the bottom of the groove was
still pretty tight. So rather than custom making a truncated key out of larger key rod (which later
wld be stupid to replace) I used regular square 1/4" and added two set screws thru the side of
the cup and cone-pointed them into the key -- seems pretty tight!!

Sorry seems so complicated.  But you  do have actual measures here,  but whether it's Factory
it's probably not exact.  But Could be!!!

The litlgull hydrofoil rudder is covered on ebb's gallery page.





WOW look at nthis most of this mpost erased itself    (anybody download it?????"?""?"?"?"?

Hey Ebb, thanks for the quick reply to this. I haven't posted in a couple years and I need to do more as I do some redo and maintenance on my boat. I'm going to re-read your post and digest it. Then I may have some follow-up questions. An important take away is your emphasis on the alignment of everything.

I had taken a screen shot of your post and it's attached a few posts below

Ebb, I had tried to get a rough estimate of the shaft length looking at the drawing in the manual, and found that a total length was not on the drawing unless I missed it. It shows the two piece inboard shaft. I estimated the missing straight piece of shaft for an outboard model by  using blocks on a piece of graph paper using the 10” dimension on the drawing. The estimate doing this is 14.5” for the straight shot in the middle of the rudder/shaft drawing. So when I added it all up, 30” + 14.5”+ 24 3/4”= 69 1/4”............ exactly what you measured out was needed for your new shaft!  I notced. in the drawing revision notes that the upper shaft was modified in 1965 for the commander, which seems to imply that it may measure differently than an Ariel. In 1962 the upper Ariel shaft was shortened to 30”— hummmm, wonder why!

Great!  I hjad a quantity left over.  How many years has  it Been?
Still have a couple pieces of form to glue in.

What surprised me the most,  my gluing also has held up!,  the
hull is non-porus, and the foam is closed cell, I worried about the
glue not drying or setting.  Waited til the "last minute" holding
the rubber off (past its repositioning window) then carefully
pressing it onto the hull.  I got such a positive join that a painter
I hired began painting the foam "thinking" it was the hull.
Good on us!!


Noticed that the long carefull measurement post above has eraswed itself,  I HATE computers

It's called "operator error!"

Kent, please keep the subject on the rudder here.  Other subjects - water based glue, etc. - should be posted in your Gallery thread.

Ebb, I had an image copy of your message that I'm posting below.

FANTASTIC,  KENT.  

But I had gone back in the text after your download and 'corrected' it..
where I had thought my finish cut was two (or so) inches longer.  But, no, here
we see in Kent's research that ebb, mucking about, has somehow come out
with what is probably


THE ACTUAL OA STOCK LENGTH OF THE RUDDER. [69 1/4"]
(That used to be called serendipity.)

(Not withstanding  Com. Pete  who probably has given this to us years ago,
 BUT that the cockpit in the Commander might be higher because extra crew
Pearson may have been allowed for, therefor a higher waterline for the cockpit
sole.   Thus maybe a longer stock on the Commander rudder.

{Why does the Commander have those higher and very handsome coamings?
AND Commander's have no bridge usually, which would allow seats to be
positioned higher up.)

That is: unless Kent has shown us otherwise,
that the rudder's in the Ariel and Commander are exactly equal.



_______________________________________________________________
Talking about tillers .. TILLER DISCUSSIONS .. on the first page
Commander Pete has an old/new photo of two tillers side by side..

This where ebb obviously got the idea.
I do believe the tiller should be down, or in the housed position,
when underway and steering.   Because of the heavy loads the
tiller has to deal with.  Also in the no-knee-bang cobra position
when sitting, the bowed tiller is easily handed, push and pulled..
GO SEE.

______________________________________________________
The more gradual curve of C'Pete's curved tiller,  makes me
think that his is an off-the-shelf class Ranger tiller. Only a higher
bow will clear knees.

Reply to Hull 376

I measured the length of the bronze shaft on what I presume to be the original mahogany rudder on my 1965 Pearson Ariel (Hull #330) today, Nov 30, 2020.  I removed and replaced that rudder in 2018.  I have not removed the shaft from the rudder. I have been storing the rudder intact in my shed since it was replaced in 2018.

My boat is an outboard model. As you are aware, the rudder shafts on both the inboard and outboard models were manufactured in two parts, so the overall length of the shafts would be dependent on the actual dimensions of the wood rudder to which the shaft is attached.

I suppose there could have been some longitudinal shrinkage of the wood, which could have reduced the length of the shaft overall, but I can’t think of any reason why the shaft would be longer today than it was on the day it was removed from the boat.

In any case, the shaft that I measured today was just over 70 inches (between 70 inches and 70 1/16 inches, but it was closer to 70 inches than it was to 70 1/16 inches). My measurement was made with a metal tape measure stretched from the top of the shaft to the bottom including the boss at the bottom. So that would make it longer than the 69 1/4 inches that you came up with from the drawing and Ebb's measurement of the new shaft length on his boat. Our boats were built in different years.  There could have been some variation between years and perhaps even between individual boats manufactured during the same year.f

Hey Scott, howzitgoin!!
Great we're weighing in on this subject!  My 72" measurement came from
the length of the stock when I bought it.  Also I had a working well and just
assumed I would have a single length shaft.
When playing around with the blade shape. completely forgot the two piece
shaft.
And when I got into hydrofoils,  decided the propeller hole in the rudder had
to be ignored.  The top  of the rudder, sticking out, with Kent doing the
actual measuring from the drawing,  and confirming what I got "mucking
about",
is not proof of anything -- but gratifying.  (even tho I thot I was making the
rudder shaft a little longer..)  Can ascribe this to length of old age.  But to
serendipity of Kent's independent  confirmation from the drawing. And it's
Scott who has the longer rudder!!

BUT, Ebb thinks there is only one, maybe two, drawings in the Manual that
are signed by Alberg.  All others seem to be not quite so accurate copies from
the copiers.  [Look at the size of the cabin windows the copiers didn't copy so
well..  On the drawings of Ariels.]

3/4" seems about the right amount to have good warm discussions about..  
along with our favorite libations..   and a platter of savory horse doers.

I have attached a photo of the top end of the rudder shaft with the tiller removed. This photo was taken in 2010. The photo shows the top of the original bronze shaft on my boat (Hull 330). At the time that this photo was taken, I had just replaced the plastic bushing and lubed the top end of the shaft. As you can see in the photo, the shaft extends some distance above the fiberglass shaft tube.

Scott,  Looks right!
But if that's right, you needed that extra 3/4".

And you know, with no OB cowl and tiller intruding,
some extra height could be gained with a longer shaft!!

Here the problem comes when the tiller is upright
to tame it in the cockpit. how much room for the
upright tillerhead is required.

Tillerhead is quite close to the end of the cockpit there.

Ebb,

I really don't have any problem with the existing rudder post position or tiller configuration. I do not feel that I need to extend the rudder shaft or use a modified tiller. I steer the boat with my outboard handle protruding forward through the open lazarette hatch while motoring with the lazarette hatch wide open. I get more fresh air to the outboard that way anyway.  

The tiller on my boat is most likely the original 1965 stock tiller. The tiller design works well when I am steering by hand or when either my main sheet or jib sheet self-steering gears are steering the boat. I have the self-steering gears engaged most of the time that I am sailing. The boat will steer a steady course in relation to the wind for miles and miles. I only use the motor to get in and out of the harbor and of course at times when there is no wind....unless of course I am rowing the boat.

Scott, just meant the  aft leaning rudder shaft if lengthened
would at some point run into trouble from the very aft hinged
tiller.  Depending on what kind of OB we have clamped to the
riser right there at the opening to the lazaret. I'm not
advocating anything -- and on the Ariel in my life, I wouldn't
dare alter the rudder-tube that the rudder shaft extends
from on the cockpitsole.  The OA lengths of our rudders is
entirely dependent on where the keyslot is cut and where it
terminates.

What's most important is that Augustine is still sailing.  That
is absolutely marvelous.

And merely off the top of my baldinghead, because I do
remember you're explaining the sailing gear to us,  but for my
failing eyes the accompanying photos were too small.  Don't
know whether I'll ever have the boat balanced correctly,
because of my whimsical changes to the boat.

Another subject, better stop before I get a warning from
the Admiral.
Be perfect to have a video here of your method.
In the correct cubbyhole of course.

Ebb,

Actually I did make some videos of my self steering system, which feature studio narration and background music, I cannot post those on-line for various reasons. I have used two of them in some for the classes that I teach. I could potentially share one or more of those videos with you in a Zoom session.

However I built a web page devoted to the subject. The URL for that page is:  http://www.solopublications.com/sailariq.htm
The photos are small to preserve band width, but the narrative explains how to build such a system. If you would like, I can send larger versions of some of the photos to you by e-mail.

Back to rudders, I understand your point. I merely wished to say thatI have not felt a need to alter the original location and/or design of tiller.

My motor is clamped on the riser (motor mount) in the lazarette, but the handle does not protrude forward through the small front hatch aft of the tiller post. By the way, I installed a permanent louvered vent in that hatch to promote air flow in the engine compartment. You can see the bottom edge of that vent in the photo that I posted earlier on this thread. Instead, the motor handle protrudes upward and slightly forward of the large to lazarette hatch. It does not interfere with the traveler or with the tiller in that position. If I choose to do so, I can close the hatch to rest open the end of the motor handle, but I usually don't. Of course I cannot close the hatch fully with the motor running. After I shut the motor down, I just fold the handle back and then close the hatch.

Outboard related post moved to outboard thread.  It's there, but it's not showing in the thread heading for some reason.

I'm making a replacement 3 plank rudder similar to the one on the boat right now (6" w 4/4 Honduran Mahogany).  I've been practicing the construction using pine and a cool used ancient Dowl-It jig I found cheap on Ebay compared to the new ones (lots of bad  copies being sold that don't work as advertised. Looks like a company bought Dowel-It, stopped making the old model which has been around since 1940s, and is now charging way more for newer models probably made in China instead of Michigan, and reviews of copies complain they don't center properly, cheaper parts, poor machining of parts) Thinking about 3/8 silicon bronze rod x 16 tapped, mated to 5/8" deep machined holes into the 1" rudder shaft (new straight shaft for my outboard model, and bolts with nuts extending well into board 2 from board 1 next to the shaft.  Drifts will connect trailing board 3 to board 2. Drifts at opposing angles to prevent board 3 from loosening up from 2, except for small gaps due to wet/dry cycle) Lots of great info on wooden boat forum on how to do drifts the right way. Anyway, I have two construction questions:

1. This will be traditional construction. Mahogany + silicon bronze fasteners.  No glue, no 3M stuff, nothing rolled on, painted on (except bottom paint), or squeezed on.  Current rudder is 50 years+ old, and that's how its built.  But to drill the longish holes for the fasteners, I still need to hold the planks together.  Could use external straps screwed at the joints before drilling. Could use interior wood glue that would "dissolve" when immersed in the water.  I want something that keeps everything in alignment during drilling, but want the planks to be able to move on the fasteners during wet/dry cycles, like my current rudder does.  I thought of using clamps, but thy get in the way, won't work on the curved planks because I need to cut the wood to pattern to drill the opposed angle drift holes. What do you folks think about the two options I've come up with, or are there other options?

2. I'm worried about the alignment of the tapped machined holes on the shaft and my ability to get them aligned with holes drilled in the wood. I admit it: I have mediocre measuring and woodworking skills!  If I'm off a smidge, it seems that I won't be able to slide the pieces together without introducing misalignment stress in the wood. So how to make sure that the pieces mate?  With through holes in the shaft, I could always start the holes in the wood through the shaft, then finish with the Dowl-It on the rudder.  But that kind of defeats the purpose of having "elegant". as ebb says, tapped holes only part way through the shaft, as Tim describes above.  The other option I thought of would be to cut small threaded pieces of 3/8" rod, screw them into the tapped holes in the shaft, then align the rudder to the shaft and tap the shaft to leave some marks on the leading edge of the rudder.  Am I over thinking this? I just don't want to find out that a hole isn't matched exactly to the shaft holes.

Some pics of pine practice.

Makes a big difference in how you drill the holes. Wooden Boaters said to drill very slowly don’t use speed bits they wander off and make sure you don’t drill more than a few inches at a time without removing the wood chips. I tried drilling really fast just to see what happens and it doesn’t look very good! But going slowly removing the chips as they recommended gives you straight holes every time. They also recommend using a Dowling jig.

In the last photo the left two are drifts pounded into undersize holes and the right two are bolts. The holes are about 11 inches

Years ago I mailed to the Admiral what I thot is a simplified version
of making a full length, no prop cut-out, three-board rudder.  It
used the rudder drawings in the Manual.  Don't remember why it
wasn't useful.  It used internal threaded rod tapped into the 1"
shaft stock.  Plan could have been redrawn for a two-piece rudder
shaft.

Suggest using Honduras mahogany and Everdur, 655 bronze. Silicon
bronze is readily available,  but, of course, we pay a premium price
for it.  Original wood/bronze rudders lasted decades/years in and
out of the water,  drying out, resoaking and working all that time.
   I think using stainless in salt water is asking for  trouble.

Ebb, I’m building new 3 plank mahogany rudder similar to your old post. Will post pics eventually. But a question for you: what if anything to squirt in the tapped 3/8” x 5/8” holes in the silicon bronze Shaft when installing the threaded rods to allow them to be removed, but also to prevent them from backing out. Definitely not 5200! Pressure from tightening the nut on the outboard threaded end should prevent loosening, but as boards relax when drying on the hard takes off the stress on the shaft, they could loosen, but maybe not. Ive gotten input from the wooden boat forum on some aspects of my construction, but they don’t build rudders that connect to a shaft like ours. The designs seem to be mostly gudgeons and pintles.

Kent, have fun with the project.
Ultimate materials will be: All silicon bronze,
and Honduras Mahogany.
Since you are using s. bronze thruout, you won't
need to seal the holes.  Apply a couple drops of
Blue 242 Loctite to the male threads.
If you are worried about water getting in, a wet
application on all the threads (but not the bottom
of the threaded rod)  may make it difficult to
sheer the seal later.

Henkel has a Technical Data Sheet.
The product is made for disassembly..

Thanks ebb. I use blue Locktite  on my cycling shoes to keep the screws that mount the cleats from coming loose. Takes a bit of effort to remove them, but they do break free!

Kent, Thinking about how many threads you're going to get
in the blind 3/8" 5/8" deep threaded hole in the shaft.  And
how many of them you will have that actually will be holding
the first two planks onto the  shaft.  Actually holding the
rudder together.. for all time.  Daunting!

WHY NOT TO USE BLUE242
Your choices are 16 and 24 threads per inch taps.  Even the
bottoming tap doesn't thread all the way to the bottom of
the hole.  Let's say 1/2" max, with incompleat turns into the
curve of the 1" stock.

Maybe half inch will get you six full threads?  Or 9-10 if you
make fine threads.  I don't think any corrosion occurs in the
silicon to silicon connection.  But the blade of the  rudder
will cause some stress on the fastnings where they enter
the shaft.

Fine thread removes less metal than coarse from the 3/8"
diameter of the rod.  You will be coving the edge of the
first plank where the wood meets metal.  If you are
making the traditional 2 piece bent shaft model with the
opening for a propeller.. you have opportunity for even
less attachment of threaded rod to shaft.

You will be using nuts on the opposite side of the first
two planks of a three plank  blade.  I don't believe
H. Mahogany swells much when it gets wet.  I somehow
believe the wood does not get very wet inside.  the
cracks in a new rudder will for years be quite narrow
when the boat is regularly on the hard.
Of course I don't know this for a fact, just guessing.
But everyone agrees the rudder 'swells' up tight just  as
regularly!

If you are imagining disassembling the rudder sometime
in the future, sliding a plank up 3 or four bolts will be
impossible,  Sheering Blue242 bond using the nut end
will be just as impossible.  I can not imagine the 3/8" rods
unscrewing themselves.
I'd more likely be using Tefgel or Lanocote to primarily
assemble the rods.. and drive them hard  into the tapped hole,
down where the thread looses  definition and the thread on
the rod deforms and hopefully creates a lock that way.

imco it is better to keep salt water out of the screw  joint.  
Ebb would probably use Tefgel -- slather the threads, but not
the bottom,  so the rod goes in all the way..  whew!
__________________________________________________
Since I'm babbling here. and it's past 4am -- one last burble:
Why not get a toothpaste tube of 5200(!), 4200,  Siklaflex
rubber and seal the wood cove to the bronze stock.  This
may stop any drying out or swelling in this joint.  And help
to keep the blade from moving at this juncture.  Keep the
goop away from the rod joints. OR NOT ! !
You and I know It would be a big mistake to use rubber glue
between the planks..
Original bronze and H.Mahogany lasted fifty years hanging on
the end of a plastic boat.  Very few were ever taken apart
for 'maintenance'.  Attempting to seal/bond the wood to metal
joint, that IS the rudder, is futile.

Ebb, I will go for 3/4” depth for machined holes. Probably have 8 good threads with 16 threaded bar. 24 threaded harder to find in silicon bronze 3/8”. I have 6 bolts, straight shaft (outboard) don’t think flex is going to be a problem.  Some of the larger rudder designs may induce more stress at the shaft.

Kent - I've just got to say "Goodonya" for undertaking such a project, and let you know I hope it comes out perfect. Salut! :)

Keep us posted, and like Frank always says "Mo' pics!" :)

Thanks for the encouragement Kurt! I’m moving right along with this project and will post pictures when it’s about done. Not doing anything the next few days as this cold front is going to bring 15° or lower temperatures to Houston. Too busy bundling up the banana trees and palm trees right now! Say Bill, would you rather I posted the Rudder project on my boat page or put it here?

Your boat page would be more appropriate.  Thanks

Posted my mahogany rudder replacement in the Gallery: A—376 Afloat http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?609-A-376-Afloat/page3 It starts about halfway down the page.

THANKS for posting the link.

Say ebb, the copper keeper strap is about 1” wide, I think, and you mentioned it’s doubled over 3 times? And what gauge (how thick) is the copper strap before doubling it over? By the way, my new mahogany rudder has darkened to a nice brown— I’ll name that color brown dog.....

Kent,  Friendly name for a fine brownish!
noticed the 'discrepancy'.   But when installing my cast bronze gudgeon,  
remembered, and checked to see  which side of the boat the rudder stock would drop.  
On litlgull the rudder will only drop past the rudder shoe on the port side.
Don't think that ended up in the Manual,  but it's good to know, and that's why we
don't have a bearing in the hole at the  hull-end of the rudder tube like Triton's have.  
Pearson just made the tube a little 'off'!  And skipped having to remove the rudder
shoe to drop the blade,  or have two sets of gudgeons,  like the Triton's.

Post above just disappeared about 5" in the middle of post.
Just GONE.
I may come back.  I may not.

LAST TRY.  TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION

THE GUDGEON STRAP
I saw in this forum perhaps, was rather thin copper sheet
with both edges bent in flat with a center seam,  can't recall, but wider than
an inch.   This gave the strap a nice rounded pro look.  With that in mind,  
look on amazon for copper sheet.  This came up:  
2 Pcs 99.9%+ Pure  Copper Sheet 6"x 6", 20 Gauge (0.81mm), Film
Attached (both sides protected).  {China product}  $14.99

Don't think strap gudgeon will be longer than 6"*.  But pure copper may be too
soft.  Working it (bending as I described) might stiffen it,  and the 'layering'
will make it about 1/16".  You could make a strap with 3 or 4 layers,  bending
it over on itself.  PURE copper, because additions like tin will stiffen it (becomes
bronze), and lead might leach.
*Better make a pattern first,  at least 8 or 9" length may be needed.

This is just an idea.  But I know you know what you are doing!!  The strap has
to bend when you remove the rudder.  But it's not under strain much when
you knock the rudder up when grounding.  It's use is to aim the stock end
back into its recess.  [May the old pagan water gods be kind!]

The rudder drops on my Ariel  on the  PORT side.   You could make a fastening
reusable by tapping its hole for a machine screw,  If the keel lay up is too fibrous,
Q-tip liquid epoxy into hole, let it set, and retap for coarse thread bronze
machine screw(s). (I'd go large like 1/4" - 5/16"..)  Just an idea.
You are going to come back to it one day,  and you should recognize by your
fastening   (don't bottom paint over it)  which side the strap unscrews.  So that
it's always exactly where it should be when you button it back up later.


amazon:  18 Ga Copper Sheet Metal, 6"x 12" 24.99.  Brand: Copper wire USA.
Material: Copper 110  (99.99% electrical grade, may have plastic film one side)

Online find: .basic copper.  Use their friendly 'copper sheet thickness guide' to look
up the 20 gauge sheet,  where they show a homemade sheet bender being used
to control the bend of this dead soft material.  So don't get this 18Ga gauge copper.
[ 18 gauge is about 1/20" - 16 gauge is about 1/16" - either will be hard or
impossible to bend lengthwise]
It can't be bent. 20gauge is the limit, and they say it will be difficult.

Maybe you can use just an unfolded 18Ga strip?   So, leave it for you to find a
larger or heavier sheet of electrical 99.99% pure copper. Maybe thinner gauge sheet
folded over on itself twice or three times (3 layers)  is the answer.  Just ideas..
 
99.99% will never harden or get brittle or corrode always pliable.

Bye now

Thanks ebb. Sorry for the disappearing ink poltergeist. Good info and some ideas I can try out. I like the bolt idea, can’t say peining rod is something I have a craving for!

Say ebb, sometime pretty soon on haul out I'm going to install the new rudder and shaft that I built earlier this year. I'm also going to replace my rudder shoe with a silicon bronze replica made by Frank Pomeranz back in 2004. I knew eventually I needed to put it on the boat. The original is pink, indicating dezincification. I know you replaced your shoe and I need your opinion on something related to the install. it seems to me that the shaft must fit perfectly into the shoe that is to say the angle has to be perfect in order to have the shaft pivot without binding at all on the rudder shoe. Did you block the new rudder shoe into position and then finagle the exact position with the shaft in the bearing? It seems to me that just installing the new shoe with the old "peen" holes through the keel may not position the new shoe exactly. Any other steps You might've taken to make sure the shoe and the shaft were in perfect alignment? Previously you mentioned that the rudder will probably drop to port and someone else posted that you need at least three cement blocks and a little bit more to be able to drop it out if it's sitting on a concrete surface. I don't want to tell the yard I need to jack hammer the concrete and then dig a hole! Ha ha!

Also, peening is not easy! How about 5/8 silicon bronze bolts! I have some and the slotted heads fit perfectly in the shoe predrilled holes which are countersunk. Having lock washer and nuts exposed on the opposite side may slow my boat speed by .0001 knots / hour, but if I leave two of the bolts protruding, ha haaa- I have an attachment point for the shoe zinc!

not finished extensive post completely erased

have in the paast found such but not this time

i'm pissed maybe later yo abswewr kent

SOME IDEAS ON MARRYING THE REPLICA RUDDERSHOE TO THE KEEL

Kent,  You have a predrilled hole in the shaft 'landing' on the rudder shoe.
Normal to be a 3/4" by 3/4" deep hole,  It shld be right angle to the flat.
Which is right angle to the slant of the keel.  The end of the 1"D stock is
milled down to 3/4"D  X 3/4" length. Snug fit, use TefGel when assembling
no gell on shaft bottom.

Notice you have very little frp material remaining in that stub that has to
support heavy rudder shoe and even heavier rudder, tillerhead and tiller.
Sounds like your replica won't slip over the stub and cozy against the ledge
from the old one.  Get it snug and the shaft landing
is right angle to the cove in the keel..  
Get a dead straight six foot 1" dowel (Constantines***)..
use it to make sure the dowel is evenly spaced down the full length of
keel's cove -- from the center of the rudder tube in the cockpit.
(***They only have 36", so you'll have to butt-join, it's only temporary.
Years ago their mahogany dowels were exact measure, 1" is 1" and
they were dead straight.  Try finding that at your local bigbox.  And yes,
I wld epoxy butt-join.  Dowel gives a visual exactness to this measure.)

After much dry fitting, line  the inside of the shoe with Seranwrap,  fill all
holes dips on the stub with wet epoxy mixed with chopped strand**,  and
using a carjack if appropriate seat the replica tight against the old ledge..
Thoroly wet the stub down with a bristle brush and plain 2-part, then
wipe it off, you can't get it dry, with a rag -- you want the structural filler to
stick to the repairs, but you want the epoxy-soak for bond.  This soak is
done at the same time as the paste and assembly. Pour off a bit of 2-part
and quickly wet, jab with brush, dry with rag..  in 30 seconds, pretend
you're BobRoss making a cloud.
(Must use a polyethylene film.  Seranwrap is really the best.)
..  ..  ..
This thing with the jack:  dry fit will have gone thru every step.  you have
factored in a little wiggle room to get the fitting exactly where you want.
You want squeeze out, but you'll be able to fix things when you remove the
fitting -- use a      non-glue bedding compound for final assembly.  If you
have a close fit, consider TefGel, no rubber.
(**In cup mix 2-part laminating epoxy, add a modicum of 1/4-1/2" chopped
strand, mix well, then add the fumed-silica to make a paste.  First wet the
frp stub with plain 2-part then  wipe it off with a cotton rag -- this assures
you get a bond with the filler paste.)

[ One of the two things ebb did to help support the huge weight of the
rudder system (rudder shoe, 20lbs of rudder stock and lbs of rudder blade,
tillerhead, tiller, and hand on tiller)..
was to drive two long bronze lag screws up thru the bottom of the shoe into
what ever there is in that narrow part of the keel.  Had barely enuf room to
drill the holes, there may be enuf meat for the hexheads* to pull themselves
in.] (Cld argue about this)

(*Hexhead lags, because if you ever have to remove the rudder shoe, you
merely grind the hexheads off!  Have to live with the lumps on the very
bottom of the keel and remember the lags are there.  Since the bolts
are never coming out --and you're not totally happy withwhat you found when
predrilling the holes,  oversize the holes a bit, use a dowel  stick with a rag
and wet the holes inside with runny epoxy as best you can -- make  a bit of
paste, epoxy and fumed-silica, slather the threads of the lagscrews and
HAMMER THEM TIGHT UPTO THE RUDDER SHOE.  Gets epoxy way up inside
in unknown territory, and the lags are captured forever.  Crazy, but it worked
for me.)              

The rudder shoe shld fit within the streamlining of the hull.   The space-
finding dowel trick shld find the fore-n-aft of the shaft position. The vertical
position of the shaft 'landing' shld be exactly right angle to the shaft along
the cove in the keel. The cove shld be easy to prep and fair to the gelcoat.
Center the dowel in the rudder tube,  it shld be centered at the landing.
Because Pearson had to do some finaggeling to allow the completed rudder
to pass the keel ('on the port side') when commissioning and off, there'll
be a mental bellcurve.  One clue is to sight down the rudder tube to see
which sjde  of the keel is commissioned!  Tube may be crooked,  but the
rudder (rudder-shaft) is absolutely straight.

Sorry,  I don't know the measure of the dowel-shaft from the cove,  my
rudder situation was very different from yours.  The method suggested is
only an idea, opinion in modern parlance.  But it is decided by the pre-
drilled hole for the shaft in the shoe landing.  Have to get the right angles
correct or the  3/4-3/4 hole will become a problem.   Dowel it!

Think the hardness of Si-bronze and 316 are close to equal.   But drilling is
easier thru bronze.
Goes without saying: you have planned and predrilled the 'peening' holes
thru the sides of the bronze shoe.  Locate where the vertical lag bolt holes
are going and drill them out too before assembly.  Forget what we have
down there: 1 1/2" width of frp keel?  Odd drilling holes under the keel,
the predrilled holes in the bronze will help keep the new longish bolts jn
the center of the narrow 2" wide keel.
Let's hope the replica is the marrying kind.


 I'VE ADDED SOME MORE STUFF HERE..  BEST TO YOU, CAPTAIN KENT !  !

Thanks ebb – – you always know what you are doing which is great for me because I usually don’t! I kind of expected I’d have to fair in some FRP to get the new shoe to fit properly into whatever is left  at the bottom of the keel but the idea with the 1” dowel is fantastic and I would never have thought of it! Using a car jack to get all the stuff in the right position with all the weight is another great suggestion. Last time I used the car jack on the boat was when I strengthened the strong back and jacked it up to put the stainless steel bar in place.

Ebb, thanks for the additional info you inserted in your initial reply above. You are a real reservoir of information on these antique plastic classics. The shoe I have should marry pretty well to the keel. Dimensionally, Fred Pomeranze did a great job making the mold back in 2004. I think several of us ordered them at the time. Here I am 17 years later finally slapping it on the boat!

Ebb, any thoughts why traffic on the site for  new posts has fallen off? My theory is that we’ve covered just about every nook and cranny, bolt, mod, spar, through hole, etc and the internet visitors are just checking out the books from our library……

Traffic has fallen off for the past ten years.  Many members have moved on and the new owners of their yachts have not seen fit to join the board.  And, they can easily search everything by just using Google.  Except for Ebb, most of our more prolific posters have left the scene.  Unfortunately, they never let us know why . . .

This post might refer back to 487,  and the subject has been written about
by ebb either here or in the gallery pages.  That area, the HEEL of the KEEL
where the rudder shoe is dapped into the fiberglass is by design a problem.

There is a huge amount of weight and leverage concentrated here.  No
amount of finesse seems to me to be possible to get an adequate lay-up
of polyester resin and matt-glass in this narrow, tight and difficult pocket.
This hull, needless to say the whole class of Ariel/Commander's, had to be
laminated as a single unit.  It made the back third of the hull a challenge
do properly.  Imagine how hard it would be if you had to lay-up the inside
of your garbage can with poly and matt,  it'd be a mess.

When I finally got A338's ruddershoe off, found that the outer half, the end,
was broken chunks of plastic.  No glass reinforcement,  The shoe had been
held in place with a single pin (that had been crudely removed and replaced
with a small bolt that held a zinc against against the bronze shoe..  WHICH
WAS PITTED & CORRODED.
The boat had a homemade rectangularish rudder with a stainless shaft.  Tried
to find out how stainless cld make bronze into an anode..  Did latter find a
more probable answer.
So, made an attempt to rebuild the naked end of the keel.  There's little that
can be done.  Here used the elegant cheat of using the  ruddershoe to mold
the repair.  Had to straighten the sides of the shoe that had been seriously
bent inward by later bolts used to keep the obviously slipping shoe in place.
There wasn't much the glass in my repair had to hold on to.

So, the long upward lag screws idea blinked  ON.  Desperation is a great
motivator.  Hope it works this time,  I've cheated alot.  I wonder if The Pearson
Boys thought it through.  Haven't added it up:  there's an astonishing amount
of bronze weight concentrated on very end of our keel.

Imagine what it was like to lay-up the stern with the toxic fumes of MEK
and polyester resin kicking off..  they had to be inside the hull to work..
masks, fans, what did they have back then?
__________________________________________________________

Had a few conversations with Roger Winiarski, proprietor of BristolBronze.
He told me something I cldn't believe, but then whom else is as good as  his
word?  He said BristolBronze been Pearson's supplier of round bar and fittings.  
OK, but then he said,  the bronze was manganese bronze, a very strong alloy
that casts into the beautiful things like winches and other deck gear.  
Like I say, Couldn't believe it..!  He assured me it was so.

The rudder shaft in many saltwater A/C's gets corroded at the waterline inside
the rudder tube that passes thru the bustle.  Well,  Why?

ManganeseBronze (58%copper - 39%zinc - .8%manganese) is nothing more
than a high tensil BRASS.  It has too much zinc in it for it to stay in alloy.  In
salt water it turns into a battery and self destructs, corrodes.  Copper alloys
are moderately resistant to dezincification at 15% zinc.  SiliconBronze 96%copper,
2.5-6%silicon, plus a pinch of a bunch of other metals including  manganese,
lead and zinc and will still be intact 1000 years in ocean water.  No guarantee.

Course Correction
I decided to make a new rudder. The old rudder was perfectly fine however, the aperture was too small for the feathering prop I wanted to install. Also, I felt too much correction with the rudder was necessary in moderate to heavy air. I hate to mess with the original Alberg design. It is elegant and compliments the lines of the boat perfectly. However, I suspect my boat may have been delivered with a taller than standard rig. (Perhaps it was a Great Lakes – light air modification.) My P measurement is 1′ longer than than standard. Seat of the pants engineering led me to decide I needed to add 15% additional surface area on the trailing edge to help with the increased main sail area.

Initially I planned to open up the aperture and scarf some wood to the trailing edge but this started to look too hacked together.


Abandoned Modification

Back to the drawing board. remove the original bronze shafts and build a new rudder. Luckily I happened across a 6/4 x 24″ mahogany board that would allow a one piece replacement. It is a testament to the quality of the bronze that Pearson used that, after almost 60 years, when I removed the nut access windows, the bronze tie rods unscrewed like they were assembles yesterday. Once removed, I used an induction heater to heat up the upper shaft and bend it back 30 degrees to allow for the larger aperture.

Next step is to make a template for the new rudder. I installed the new prop then made a Masonite blank and experimented with shapes that cleared the new prop, had the additional surface area, and looked like they belonged to this classic design.



Once I decided on a shape I cut the plank to the new shape, ran the leading edge through a router with a 1″ rounding bit to accept the upper and lower shafts, drilled holes for the tie rods, then using a 1 1/2″ hole saw made windows for the new nuts.



New rudder faired with nut windows filled.
Next step is to install, coat with epoxy barrier coat and bottom paint.



On the boat




Barrier Coated with IP 2000 E


Bottom Painted and ready to go