The boat is in a state of severe neglect. It will require a complete frame off restoration. When I am done, no matter how good the restoration, she will still not be worth much – but it is such a beautiful boat. Not as she lies but in my mind. She will have gleaming maroon hull sides, a classic white and buff deck and varnish so deep and smooth the teak underneath will appear to be floating just below the surface of still pond. Right now she is a sad. If I don't rescue her she will go to the dump. We will cut the lead from the keel and sell the outboard and mast as scrap aluminum. The carcass will be hauled off to a landfill where it will be crushed and mixed in a stew of plastic packaging and potato peels and topped by a layer of soil in a pot pie of excess. I can't let that happen.
I know better. I've been working in the marine industry for over 25 years. I've done everything from operating a travelift and working in the glass shop to sales and marketing. Smart people in this industry sail on other people's boats – they don't own them. I've owned boats but usually just long enough to clean them up and sell them. I should not start this project. I know better. I'm also not that smart.
I started a blog to track the progress and post musings. You can see it at:
https://bisquitreborn.wordpress.com/
I will have loads of questions
You have a great group of innovative and inspired Commander skippers here.
They will keep you 'in the frame'!
Thanks for saving her....
Posting here, as well, by creating a Gallery page, will get you feedback.
Keep attention here as well as your new blog by updating posts and pictures...
good way to go.
Here are a few pictures of the boat as found. It's gonna be fun.
It was too cold yesterday to work outside so I rebuilt the main companionway hatch. All that was left were half a dozen of the louvers. I recreated the hatch from these. I used the old ones. Ready for varnish.
Oh Man, this is gonna be good!
Cheers to you for the rescue. What's your name, or shall we call you Biscuit?
... oh and Grace is a terrific boat name, but taken here... by our sadly in absentia C-200 Commander Pete.
Gale Warning, Full Gail, Strong Gail, Whole Gail, Graceful, Full of Grace, Say Grace, Gracie, Glen Gracie Glen Gail....... !
Kyle,
Your boat is beautiful. I guess I should introduce myself. My name is Phil Pollard. I'm the sales manager at Crowley's in Chicago. It's nice to see another Lake Michigan Commander.
Phil
Congratulations and welcome to the forum. Have fun with the refit and we all love pictures!
Mike
C227
Phil
Thanks for keeping another commander out of the dump. You have your work cut out for you but these boats are absolutely worth it. Please keep posting here on your progress. It is a really good log of everything you have to go through to get her back in shape. I have several friends who check on my progress frequently and you will also.
Phil.
Lucky Bisquit to have found you.... that's quality carpentry you do there!
Wondering if you are thinking to change her name.
(personally I think it's a perfect name for a little ship!)
Had to take a quick look and discovered this:
There was a famous undersized race horse named Seabiscuit.
Sired by a stallion named HardTack.
HardTack was sired by Man O'War and a mare called Tea Bisquit.
Tea bisquits are served with tea, wherever English tea is served, what we call cookies.
Of course bisquits are a different form of flakey consumable in the States,
often served up hot with gravy or butter and hominy grits....
It's going to take a lot of gravy and grit to get C025 looking fine again....
Here's looking at her!!!
I am going to take my time on the name. Tea Bisquit is nice though. It will be in the running. I finished removing all the hardware and trim and pressure washed the interior. She is ready to go in the shed and start with the deck re-core. I'll post some pictures of the progress when she is moved and staged. Tomorrow I hope. Here is a before and after on the engine well access panel. I'm using 1/2" smoked lexan for the door and I will replace the dead lights with the same.
Form more musings on names check out my blog post on the topic.
https://bisquitreborn.wordpress.com/2015/04/14/boat-names/
Well, you have given it much thought, and it sounds personal...
(My daughter chose her mother's middle name Gail, as her writer nom-de-plume.)
Nowadays bisquit seems more to be a name for a color, than historical navy food.
Maybe a more formal name for Bisquit will reveal itself. Bisqui't is rather plain!
But the name is fun, as it brings to mind the word CRACKER and Cracker Jack, both
with a number of meanings. (I have a particular dislike for obvious puns in boat names.)
PRETZEL, SALTINE both salty.. but one comes with mustard.
CRULLER, ECLAIR and MUFFIN. SCONE and of course CUPCAKE
Hoeny Bisquit, Tea and CRUMPETs, which brings to mind TRUMPETS...when you splash.
.................................................................................................................................
You feel like a pretzel after a day working below.
cracker's what's your head been up to.
cruller is SO bad.
but eclair has a nice sound and met with a rumble in the belly
scone is too starbucks, and there was boat named scone dove.
cupcake is too obvious and common. Brass Cupcake is a great novel.
I can see how bisquit isn't going to make it....
I'll be quiet now.:o
Bisquit has been moved from the corner of the yard where we store forgotten boats - The Island of Misfit Toys. She is in a storage shed that will be her new home until she is ready for paint. I set up some staging and she is ready for the heavy work. I got her pressure washed inside and out so working on her will be bearable. I still have a few hardware items to remove (stemhead fitting, bow chocks deadlights and outboard jib tracks) - everything else has been removed.
And the fun begins! I remember very well what doing that kind of work is like. Having an inside place to work sure makes the job a lot more tolerable.
I made a couple of deck drawings so I can sketch out some ideas for deck layouts. They are not exact but close enough for government work.
Now take the drawings and go visit your sail maker. I wish I had spent more time talking to my sail maker before deciding on a layout plan. They (sail makers) really are a valuable resource if we use them correctly.
Hey, I just noticed the beer bottles sitting on the table by the hatch covers. Speaking from personal experience you will need a lot more of those before you finish this project! :-)
Many more beers will be sacrificed before this is over. I was going to have a sail maker tell me where the sails need to trim to. I am trying to work out a floating lead arrangement but I have not figured out how to make the inhauler work. Lots of time to work through those details.
It's been a couple of weeks since I've posted an update on my progress. Spring is a really busy time at the boatyard. Add to that a trip to see my son's college graduation ceremony and a trip to the west coast to set up a boat for the Transpac and something had to give. Rather than that be progress on Bisquit, I decided to postpone updates. Right now I have removed all of the bad core from the deck and prepped the inner skin for new core.
I left ribbons of deck in place for a couple of reasons. They will allow for smaller, more manageable lay ups and core replacement and they will provide reference points for the deck shape when I fair the new outer skin.
The bow is re-cored. I put 3/8" G10 sheet at the bow and at the stanchions, deck fill and dorade vent to stiffen the deck and prevent water ingress in the future. I backfilled the areas where the inner and outer skins taper and meet with west system epoxy thickened with a combination of high and low density filler. I will put G10 under all the stanchions, chainplates and cleat locations aft. After it is all re-cored I will taper the deck to meet the core allow for a smooth transition on the layup.
Meanwhile back at the ranch have been working on the exterior woodwork. It was in pretty rough shape. I removed and disassembled it all then I ran whatever I could through a planer. I had to rebuild the main hatch, the winch pads, and the cockpit combing wings. I have 2 sealer layers and 3 build layers on most of the exterior wood now and it is starting to look like it belongs on a boat. I am using Epifanes Gloss varnish thinned 50% for the seal coats and 10% for the build coats. I plan to do a three more build coats then switch to the rubbed effect for the next 4 coats. After it is reassembled and installed on the boat I will probably have to do at least one touch up coat.
Here is what the wood looked like when it was removed.
Bisquit better be dang happy she found you! Looking good!
Moving along. Got the deck re-cored, prepped the core and deck for glass, laid up 3 layers of 1708 biax and two layers of 8 oz mat. Down the center seam of the foredeck I added 3 layers of carbon unidirectional cloth and 3 layers of 1708 to stiffen things up there a bit. After all that was done I took an air file and and knocked down all the highs. I had the kids help me on Father's Day and we mudded the whole thing with 407. Tonight I plan to spend some quality time with my air file.
So what are you using for the replacement core material?
3/8" balsa for most areas. 3/8" G10 at the stanchions, bow and chainplates.
Work on Bisquit continues. I took a break to do the Transpac and the boat I sail on dropped out. - something about Hurricane Delores and insurance. Kinda glad we didn't go. It is a slow one this year. That is a story for another time. Back to the grind -- literally. Now that the deck is faired, it is time to move to the cabin top. I replaced the core under the mast step with solid glass and redesigned the mast step in solid glass. I also replaced the core on the cabin top at the starboard cockpit. I plan to run the halyards aft to clutches and a winch on both sides. The pt side is dry so need to re core. I'll lay glass tomorrow and start the fairing of the cabin top. My goal is to have primer on the deck by the end of the month. We will see how it goes.
I'm impressed with how fast you seem to be making progress. In my younger days things did not take as long as they do these days but once the body passes the 60 mark you tend to slow down. From what I can see your work looks good. Keep going you'll be done before you know it.
Thanks. You have set the bar really high.
I decided to prep the hullsides as well as the deck before I started to prime her. The old paint came off easily with a razor blade. I filled and faired all of the miscellaneous scratches and gouges. The shape is good.
Ready for primer
One coat of primer on the deck
Two coats of IP2000E on the deck and hull. This weekend I will add 3 more coats of primer then sand and prep for the Awl Grip system.
Cast Aluminium Fittings
Bisquit had all of the original (Danish I think) cast aluminium fittings on the deck. It would have been cheaper to just replace them in stainless but I want to maintain as much of the original hardware as I can. I sent the bronze stuff (stemhead, chainplates, tiller head, lifeline deck plates etc... ) out to be re-plated. I'm still waiting for those. After spending a few hours with mixed results trying to polish the aluminium fittings myself I found a shop outside of Chicago that specializes in metal polishing. I got the fittings back the other day. They are beautiful. Now I have to protect them. I don't want to clearcoat them. That would create a maintenance nightmare and it would wear off the cleats almost immediately. I'm talking to a guy about Bright Anodizing. I'm hoping he can help. Does anyone have any experience with this process?
Also, There is a 3" deck plate not pictured but restored. It looks like a Dorade vent may screw into it. Is anyone familiar with this fitting?
That must be the deck fitting for an original cowl vent. There are pics somewhere on here...
Looking awesome! Are those your polished aluminum fittings, yet to be coated? Capt. Ebb had his deadlight frames anodized...
Great work on Bisquit!
I have much of that original hardware, but ended up having to replace the bow and stern chocks with SS. That old pot metal isn't super strong - two of them broke in storms and..... too Humpty Dumpty to put them together again.
The fitting on the foredeck is for a cowl vent. These photos are of Lucky Dawg's vent. It screws in and has a pin with a spring at the bottom (that you may be able to see) so that you can point it any 360* direction and lock it temporarily in that in place. I've toyed with painting the inside red, but haven't done so as of yet.
pix are from this http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?1604-Commander-65-quot-Lucky-Dawg-quot&p=16043#post16043
Kyle, I was hoping it was for a cowl vent. That is really cool. Now all I have to do is find one. At least I know what I am looking for.
Mike, The fittings are just polished now. I'll have to ask Capt Ebb what anodizing process he used.
Thanks!
Phil
Mine came with Lucky Dawg. I think Mike (C227) glassed over his vent hole and he has redone a couple additional Commanders. Maybe he has one? Seems logical that other Pearson models of the era might have the same part.
The one on Maika'i was gone by 1978:(
Check this thing out. The woman who does our varnish work managed a barn find up near the Wisconsin border. It will need a complete renovation (house paint over the gel coat and some other well intentioned improvements) but overall it is in good shape and mostly original including the Mercury Outboard. This outboard does not have a transmission. Instead it has two starters, coils and distributors. You start the boat in gear and go - there is no neutral. To stop you pull the shifter to the center position and it shuts the engine down. To put he engine in reverse you pull the shifter back and press the start button. This engages the second starter, coil and distributor and the engine runs in the other direction. They were know as "dockbusters" Too bad I already have a project.
Looks like the old Falls Flier... They didn't have headlights tho. Those old Mercurys were prized by the racing hydroplanes As there are no gears in the lower units it's a lot smaller/less drag. Unfortunately I do not have a air scoop for you.
Mike
Re: the ventilator hood. Check the recent post in the Off Topic forum about scrapping Ariel - 203. It was in the same family for most of its existence, so the hood, etc., may still exist. If not, the dismantler claims to have a large inventory of old Pearson yacht hardware.
Here you go! This guy has one: James - captainharkins@hotmail.com
From Bill's post about the Ariel being parted out.
http://www.marinesalvagemaine.com
Kyle - Thanks! I'll contact him
I have officially renamed Bisquit. She shall hereinafter be know as The Gail Grace (gg) for short. She has been out of paint for a while and I am just about through with installing all of the hardware and brightwork. I lead all of the halyards, the single line reefing, outhaul etc. aft. The hullsides are painted with Awl Grip "Downeast Red" a custom color they make for Morris Yachts. The deck is painted with Awl Grip in Oyster White with sprayed on nonskid. I designed a logo for the boat and incorporated it in the nonskid. You just get a cheap vinyl version of the logo cut and after you spray the smooth and it has dried - before you spray the nonskid you put the decal down. You go ahead and spray all the nonskid areas and then peel the graphic after the nonskid has dried. I have been meaning to post some pics of the progress but you know how that goes. I had custom scupper grills made in 316 stainless by a place that uses water jetting to cut them from stainless steel. Time to start the next project. I'm going to re-power her with a little Yanmar diesel.
WOW! What an amazing transformation! Beautiful boat.
Love the logo in the gel coat, great idea.
I hope you get as much joy out of GG as we have from The Princess.
Mike
Sorry if I missed it in your text....
great idea using gg bronzes for scupper covers!
For your cockpit drains also?
Thanks, I can't wait to sail her this summer. The whole family is excited. I had the shop cut 8 logos. $265 for the lot. Two for the scuppers, two for the cockpit drains, one for a hatch board, one for the Christmas tree and two extras. I have a cockpit grate that I have to modify slightly so you can still see the covers. I'll post some pics of that when I am done.
Great work on GG! That hull color is a knock out. Morris Yachts has a way of bringing a lot of subtleties together to make one stunning boat. It looks like you have the same knack. The only bad thing I can see is it is a looooong wait until summer in this latitude.
Last weekend I started the repower project. Earlier I removed the fairing over the propeller window. I was really pleased to discover that the hull mold and rudder for the boat were originally built for an inboard then modified for outboards. I just had to remove fairing skin on the hull and a block in the rudder and I had my window. Last weekend I cut a window in my cockpit floor to make the engine installation a whole lot easier. I did not re-core the cockpit floor (though it was needed) when I did the rest of the deck work in anticipation of this project. After I removed the cockpit floor I had easy access to hull and the liner. I cut back a little of the liner, dug out the foam, marked the center of the propeller opening then drilled a hole for a fiberglass stern tube. So far so good.
Cockpit Floor with access window cut out
Liner cut back to expose foam where prop shaft will enter
Center of prop window marked for drilling
Drilled for stern tube
Stern tube fitted in place
This weekend I'll build and align the engine bed.
As promised - a couple of pics of the cockpit before I cut out the window for the engine installation.
Wow, talk about bring back memories! Your pictures remind me of what I went through to convert Destiny into an inboard. But I did not cut the floor out of the cockpit. I can however see how that would make the job massively easier.
Any advise on the project?
Great cockpit signature can/cup holders there!
Thanks. I'm running prop programs for the Yanmar 2GM20F I plan to install and everything says that the aperture is too small for the engine to have good efficiency. The 18hp is plenty to push the boat but the prop should be a 16 x 11. three blade. By my calculations I would have to increase the pitch to at least 15 - 16 to get the prop down to the required 13" for the existing aperture. What are people running?
Quote from: Bisquit;27472Any advise on the project?
Well I typed out this list of things I did to make the job go better and then the forum software refused the post and it was all lost. First time I've had that happen.
If you would like to talk about my experiences with the job you can call me. Here is a link to one of the things I will tell you about if you call. My phone is
http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?1972-Commander-147/page10
You know these boats originally came with an Atomic 4 that ran wide open with a tiny 8" 2-blade prop. That is probably why the aperture for the prop is no larger than it is. I know you already have the engine but perhaps you could salvage an atomic 4 to put in her. Maybe not on your timeline however.
I have a friend who sails a Morgan 30 with an atomic 4 in it and he loves it. He can go to the auto parts store to buy any parts he needs.
There have been a substantial number of repowerings with Diesel engines and I've seen no complaints about the size of the prop aperture.
Quote from: Bisquit;27474Thanks. I'm running prop programs for the Yanmar 2GM20F I plan to install and everything says that the aperture is too small for the engine to have good efficiency. The 18hp is plenty to push the boat but the prop should be a 16 x 11. three blade. By my calculations I would have to increase the pitch to at least 15 - 16 to get the prop down to the required 13" for the existing aperture. What are people running?
My Ariel was repowered by a PO with a Yanmar 2GM:
Specs: Yanmar 2GM 13 HP @ 3400 RPM, 15 HP @ 3600 RPM
Trans: 2.62:1
Prop: 13x11
Some old threads about my brief history with a Yanmar including prop programs, emails from prop shops, and excellent advice from a previous forum member:
//www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?1233-Inboard-Issues
//www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?2187-Ideas-wanted
Bill of Periwinkle (A-231) would be a great resource if he is still checking in. He did a wonderful rehab on A-231 and repowered with a 20 HP diesel.
http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?1230-A-231-Periwinkle
Great job on your refit and good thinking on saving the cockpit sole for last!
Quote from: mbd;27478My Ariel was repowered by a PO with a Yanmar 2GM:
Specs: Yanmar 2GM 13 HP @ 3400 RPM, 15 HP @ 3600 RPM
Trans: 2.62:1
Prop: 13x11
Some old threads about my brief history with a Yanmar including prop programs, emails from prop shops, and excellent advice from a previous forum member:
//www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?1233-Inboard-Issues
//www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?2187-Ideas-wanted
Bill of Periwinkle (A-231) would be a great resource if he is still checking in. He did a wonderful rehab on A-231 and repowered with a 20 HP diesel.
http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?1230-A-231-Periwinkle
Great job on your refit and good thinking on saving the cockpit sole for last!
Thanks for the info. I am sure I will be able to sort the prop issue. Is you prop a 2 blade or three blade?
3 bladed. Pics, etc. are in the threads I posted above.
The prop question was decided by fate. I happened across a used 13 x 11 3 blade sailor in good condition - for 50 bucks. That is what I am goin with. I had a bit of a setback yesterday. I built a really nice engine bed. I created a framework with glass reinforced foam panel glued to a fiberglass sheet. The stringers were backed with 1/4" aluminium and I laid up 4 layers of 1708 biax over the whole thing then filled it and prepped it for an epoxy coat. All that was left was to glass it into the boat. That is when I discovered that a 21 looks just like a 12 upside down. The measurements I took from the old engine required 21" of clearance over the bed. I read 12". I designed for 16" to be on the safe side. Does anyone want a really nice engine bed? At least I know how to do it this time.
On the plus side the control panel came out really nice. I recessed it in the door behind the tiller head and built a removable box to protect the backside
Here are some pictures of the jig in place with the now useless bed.
You know I built so many things on Destiny twice I effectively built two boats. :-( So I feel your pain. But you are getting really close and we are all cheering you on to reach the finish line. BTW I sure wish I would have had that jig when I repowered Destiny.
All of the prep work for the engine bed and the engine compartment is done. The engine had to go further forward than I originally thought to get low enough in the boat to sit below the cockpit floor. Not a problem. I cut a little into the wasted space under the companionway. The batteries will go on the starboard side. I am going to reconfigure the starboard settee to be a galley, nav station and house all of the mechanicals forward of the lazzerette. Some choices I made.
- I put in an inspection hatch on the port side that I will be able to access from the pt lazzerette.
- I am also putting in an inspection hatch in the cockpit floor. I was originally against this but I realized that if I needed to do any serious repairs the access I will get from the hatch in the cabin and the inspection port will not be enough. I will have to monitor for leakage.
- The fuel tank will sit on the shelfe above the stuffing box.
- I'm using a dripless stuffing box made by Volvo Penta. Inexpensive, easy to install and in stock. https://shop.crowleys.com/eSource3/Sealing_Sleeve/i_0_0_/_VP%203819724
- The fuel filter, water intake throughull and the water strainer will be forward, accessible inside the cabin engine hatch
The engine goes in this afternoon.
Nize work! mon, nothing like a clean bilge.
You need at least a couple ball valves on those drain exits.
Technically they seem pretty distant from any immediate access.
Ball-valves might be mounted in line on the existing stubs there,
with completely exposed on/off two-arm handles.
Wonder, since the exits are close to fore-n-aft bulkheads,
if the quarter-turn handle on the valve could be rigged so that they
could be shut off remotely. A dowel pinned to the handle
and extended along the bulkhead to the companionway
where they could be pushed to close, for instance, and pulled
to open.
Or better, if pinned to the bottom of the two-armed handle,
you would pull the dowel to close the valve,
and push it to open the valve handle in line with the hose.
That way would keep the extension 'handles' out of traffic.
just talking.....
I am definitely going to install shut off valves while I have the easy access. I will be able to get to them pretty easily from the hatch in the cockpit floor and can reach them from the access door in the cabin. The question is how to affix them to the fiberglass stubs. Should I cut the stubs flush and install through hulls or epoxy a nipple to the stub. The epoxy nipple would be easier, cleaner and not to mention cheaper but the throughull would be more secure. How have other owners done this?
Well, depends I think on where you're taking the boat.
Doing it right with upgrade thru-hulls and seacocks is best I think.
Your fore-n-afts look too close to easily use the existing hole for new thru-hulls.
But maybe you can because the photo shows a pretty clean job by Pearson.
You'd be slicing and grinding off the stubs tight to the hull.
If Pearson didfn't fudge the holes thru too much, they might be opened up for
screw in thru-hulls. Assume the glass pipe was not tabbed through the hole but
is inside the hull.
But it doesn't look like you have room for seacock bases or the smaller conversion
base that allows use of ballcocks. Pictures here, don't know how to access.
I think Grocco finally came up with them, bases to allow inline ballvalves to be
use as seacocks. Good idea but a lot more plumbing connections.
If you decide to use an inline ball valve maybe it will be plastic. There are some
robust ball valves out there. But myself would have trouble trusting them.
Did finally use marilon in Littlegull.
Pearson used fiberglass tube not pipe size stuff. I don't know what you got there?
1 1/4", 1 1/2"? You could locate a couple inlines, which usually have female ends,
and just maybe you could glue them in. But then what? Male end inline ball valves
*could be connected to the fiberglass stub with a very short very stout piece of hose.
Overkill would be to securely bolt traditional seacocks to the hull. And use thru-
hulls that screw into the seacock from outside. That way everything can easily be
taken apart and replaced if ever necessary. (I've pointed out elsewhere, that if
the seacock is planted on epoxy glued backing blocks, you've using bronze bolts
to fasten it to the hull, the thru-hulls are secondary, because if you unscrew them
with the bedded seacock in place, the hole won't leak....unless the valve is open!)
Expensive. But classy and increases the value of your biscuit there!!
Are you going to insure your investment?
If your choice is bronze or marilon ball valves, you'll need room to turn them onto
threaded base or conversion base.
*McMasterCarr has some glass-filled polypropylene double union inline valves. Double
unions, if they remain waterproof, would allow easy replacement of the valve body
without disturbing anything else in the installation. //www.mcmaster.com/#ball-valves/
Problem, of course, is that there always will be water in the hose... and valve.
However, there are a bunch of our boats out there still floating, probably a little
apprehensively, on Pearson's original cheap installation. Which, if you invested in
some real nice expensive underwater plastic spiral reinfirced rubber hose (Trident)
and 100% s.s. hose clamps...could always get back a little later to do it better!!:D
Well, cheap.. but no gizmos to clog, no valves to freeze up. Gooed argument for
simplicity. And a couple of those new plastic cone plugs in case the hose pulls off.
and a real easy to find mallot to whack em.
I think I'll cut and grind them flush and install screw in throughulls and ball valves. More work but better piece of mind.
The engine is in and all the related systems are installed. I am putting the cockpit floor back together right now.
Some details on the engine choices:
Yanmar 2GM
Racor 120 A Fuel Filter
Groco ARG 75 water strainer
Volvo dripless stuffing box
Yanmar Type B panel with tack
10 gallon Tempo marine fuel tank
Teleflex single lever shifter
3 bladed bronze fixed prop with shaft zinc
The cutlass bearing is set in the stern tube and held with two set screw/Helicoil combos.
Time to get rolling on the mast and boom. Going with a tides marine mainsail track, and a new furlex furler. Oh yea - I put the new name on today.
Quote from: Bisquit;27507I think I'll cut and grind them flush and install screw in throughulls and ball valves. More work but better piece of mind.
That's what we did. The peace of mind is worth the effort. You've spared no expense elsewhere on GG so it makes perfect sense to go that route. I used 1 1/2" but 1 1/4" might have been a better fit.
Working on the rig now. I stripped all the hardware off and and modifying the masthead to accept modern exit boxes. All of the halyards will be run internally.
I welded in some aluminium bar stock into the existing sheave box opening, ground it flush and then fitted some really nice Harken sheave boxes I scavenged from a Mumm 36 rig that got on the wrong side of a semi truck. In fact, 70 - 80% of the hardware on this boat has been scavenged from totaled boats or masts. The remainder I picked up on e-bay. Getting the hardware off was a barrel of laughs. I think I broke 5 or 6 impact driver bits even though I soaked all of the fasteners with PB blaster and Kroil. I removed the external bronze main track but will reinstall it after the mast is painted and slide a Tides Marine Strong System over it. I hope to get primer on the mast, boom & spin pole tonight.
We're also going with TidesMarine.
Littlegull mast had to go with new Schaefer sailtrack.
Because the bronze track was worn at least 1/16" on one side
as if it spent its whole life holding the main on a starboard reach.
Can't remember which side.
Bad enough to worry that StrongTrack would wear, because there wasn't enough
'flat' metal for the rather soft plastic to bear on.
More like an edge that would wear and cut.
And of course, possibly become crooked over time. Or even pull off!
How the bronze track got worn on one side only is hard to fathom...
Maybe she did the transpac. :) Mine is in good shape. I was surprised to see they used self tapping screws to build the mast (track attachment too) . I am going to rivet it back on.
Last weekend I had to replace my fence. Put my son to work and we built this.
The boat is outside and staged for stepping and launch. I stripped the bottom but need to repair a crack in the keel before I barrier coat and bottom paint her I'm going to miss my self imposed America's Cup race deadline this weekend. I would be able to watch from my mooring but will have to watch from another boat. I'm going to step her tomorrow. I also hacked together an interior for this season - big plans for the interior next winter.
Yesterday I took the Gail Grace for a shakedown cruise from the boatyard to her new home in Monroe Harbor in downtown Chicago. Light air downwind run so we popped the chute only to discover it had a Michigan State Spartan S logo. Might have to do something about that. Still have a long punch list but it will far more pleasant to work on it while she is on the can.
Wow! She looks outstanding. Quite a transformation from a year ago http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?2650-C-025-Bisquit&p=27086#post27086 Cheers!
I had a fairly interesting afternoon on our boat a couple of weeks ago. My son and I went out for a sail - beautiful weather, sunny, 15 - 20 knots breeze out of the west so no seas off of Chicago - a great day. On our way back into the harbor the engine died. I have been chasing a nagging air leak in the new diesel installation. I have had an intermittent problem with this since launch. I believe I have it fixed now. No big deal, We'll just sail her back to the can. Some concentration and care are required as the north end of Monroe Harbor is a fairly dense mooring field. Additionally, when the breeze is out of the west it swirls and shifts quite a bit as it channels through the tall office buildings that make up Chicago's skyline. We were coming into the can a little hot so I dropped the main just under a boat length from our mooring figuring we would easily coast right to it. Just then the wind puffed up and shifted right on our bow -- stopping us dead in our tracks. OK -- I'll just scull her the last 15 ft to the can. I started to work the tiller. I had to pump pretty hard because of the breeze -- then the tiller broke at the tiller bracket. This is about the time I remembered the old adage that a disaster is rarely the result of one mishap but rather the culmination of a series of mishaps and bad decisions. I scavenged the tiller from an abandoned boat and did a few repairs before I varnished it up and put it to work on the Gail Grace. I figured it would last the season and I would build one after I had enough time with the boat to know exactly what shape would work best. I figured wrong. I grabbed the bracket and turned the boat letting the wind take us. We were able to grab an empty can a little further down the harbor. There we bled the diesel, got the engine started and limped back to our can before the owners of the mooring we pirated came in from their sail. That night I cut up a straight tiller from an old piece of poplar I had in my basement. Just a temporary fix till I could make a proper tiller.
This weekend I made the proper tiller. First I took some measurements, then I made a few profile templates from 3/16" luan ply. I brought those down to the boat and decided on a profile. Back in the shop I cut some True Mahogany and White Oak strips, made up a form by screwing 2 x 2s to a piece of plywood, then I covered the whole thing with shrink wrap tape. I slathered the strips with epoxy, sandwiched them in a couple of fiberglass battens then clamped them to the jig slowly drawing each clamp a few turns at a time. Yesterday morning I popped the laminate out of the jig, ran it through the table saw, the planer, the router and spent a little time with the sander. I am pretty happy with the result and it should be super strong, give me maximum room in the cockpit and enough leverage to easily steer in heavy weather.
Thanks for telling the tale...
And showing us how to stack together a new tiller!!
'S' curves are sexy. You've got a beut!
Came to the same conclusion, but had mine made.
Less knees to crunch, but also the massive tiller fitting was
pretty bent on A-338, and the bitty machine screw that holds
it all together was worn enough to require replacing....
thought that an upstanding tiller (named mine: Cobra)
would keep more square mm of metal together at the fitting.
Standing in the cockpit be able to steer with the tiller
almost in an at rest position, fully engaged. Where it ought to
be when sculling. And on a broad reach...on a beautiful day...
Also, instead of fixing the tiller thru its side, drilled some
holes thru the top of the old fitting, and thru an added plate
on the bottom, so as not to mess up the laminations...
actually clamping them permanently together...
(sorry, couldn't resist. you do fine carpentry, suh!)
Good idea on the bracket. through the top. Why don't they make all brackets that way?
99% of all traditional tillerheads attach the tiller on its sides.
Leaving the top open.
Every once in awhile you see one that holds the tiller butt in a channel, like
ours, if you have the original.
It's really a massive fitting. Easy to imagine ours translated to formed steel
channel, which is seen sometimes in modern boats.
If you've given the tiller a snug fit in the fitting, where can it go sideways??
Sideways bolts really mess with the laminate. How many pieces in the
glueup? 5 - 6 ? Drill holes sideways thru the tiller, you've severed two or
three of them! Sideways holes will collect moisture. We will seal the holes.
Clamping the tiller into the 'channel' seems so natural, it boggles the mind
why it isn't done by everyone.
Nuts are on the bottom, some may object to that. but you could dap them
in a bit in shallow counters with a medium size fender washer, leaving the
nuts half exposed.
Besides the sides of the channel are too short to spread the bolts properly.
Tiller has some lams that are even more compromised, maybe causing the
break you experienced. The original tiller probably was cut from solid wood.
Can use carriage bolts in square holes for a smooth look.
I found some slotted oval head bronze strut bolts at TopNotchFasteners,
Drilled three chamfered holes in a row like buttons:D along the top of the
channel. If anybody asks what the empty holes in the sides are for,
they're there so the tiller can breathe, of course!
Line up the slots and nobody will argue with you....:rolleyes:
Here you go - a variation of Capt Ebb's excellent advice in action on an original tiller fitting:
(http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=4956&stc=1&d=1213501423)
From the "tiller Discussions" thread: http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?69-Tiller-Discussions (http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?69-Tiller-Discussions)
From post #40, this pic shows the potential problem Ebb is talking about.
(http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=4873&stc=1&d=1210385679)
Thanks again Ebb!
I'm going to do this. It makes so much sense. I have the original fitting. I had it re-chromed last winter. I'll get some nice stainless carriage bolts and recess the nuts in the bottom of the tiller I'll live with the temp tiller until the end of the season (unfortunately pretty soon). My laminate has 11 layers at the butt end. A 1/2" bolt will go through 2 - 3 of the layers. Thanks for the excellent advise.
of an ugly truth
Chinese proverb:
"To hear something a hundred times isn't better than seeing it once."
Or twice, as Mike shows. May the sun always be out of your eyes:cool:
Can't help adding:
Instead of washers under the nuts underneath the tiller, I had a piece of 1/8" everdur
(stainless plate here would be OK) and shaped it to hopefully do a little double duty.
We have to skinny down the butt of the tiller to make it fit in the tillerhead channel.
So It ended up that the 'washer plate' is only 1" wide. And 6.5 inches long -- which
extends it beyond the end of the channel. Backup-plate is shaped a bit like a tongue!
My reasoning is that damage to the tiller is usually bearing/falling down suddenly on it.
And maybe adding the bit of overhang (no extra fastening like a screw) at the lever
breakpoint may support, add a little resist. Plate weighs very little.
Occurs to me, if you agree that this narrow plate rather then the usual washers is an
improvement... that it could be extended further out and thru fastened with smaller
diameter machine screws,
to keep the tiller intact for at least a couple serious downers.
Have to assume, even when the lams are glued well, they are held under tension, and
still want to straighten. 2 or 3 small MS will add refusal to lam movement.
And incidentally, mechanically tie the tension side to the compressed.
I have the short version now. But if I clone, and find the time to make an essential
metal 'lamination', what? maybe, 10 or 12 inches long. 2 or 3 #12MS. Attempting to
erase the breakpoint of our vulnerable and valuable cockpit companion.
(Spare tiller can be a straight piece of white oak, already fitted to the channel, and
a couple of Lanocoted screw C clamps -- to get you home.)
Realize, that a counter argument is that a breakable tiller saves damage to the
irreplaceable tillerhead and shafthead. The unthinkable would be much harder to fix.
It's also good to have a spare tiller, fitted and predrilled for the bolts,. with bolts.
304/316 stainless may react to tannins in oak,. must be isolated.
??imco -- it's all for fun
I decided to get rid of the outboard well. Since I converted the boat to an inboard I no longer need it. At first I thought I would keep it in case I decided to use an outboard at some point in the future. However, after a season sailing her I don't think that is likely. The reasons for the effort are many:
- Nicer lines
- Better performance under sail and power. (I am pretty sure the well was creating drag when motoring and some times when under sail)
- More room in the stern lazzerette
- The foam between the lazzerette liner and the hull was saturated and caused the new finish to blister.
- Less weight in the stern.
First order of business was to cut the old well and liner out then dig the foam out. First I cut the old well from the outside then cut the inner skin out. After that I was able to pry out the old well and dig out all of the saturated foam. I filled up a trash can with 100 lbs of foam, glass and smutz.
Here it is tented up and ready to grind and prep for glass.
I am tying up the last details from the outboard to inboard conversion. The Yanmar is in and happy. The outboard well is history and the hull is ready for paint.
Time to lose the corrector weight. If this is my corrector weight it measures 32 x 10 x 5. If I deduct the cut out for water flow I get 1456 cubic inches. At .41 lbs per cubic inch that is just south of 600 lbs. The Yanmar weighs 251 lbs. I cut out 100 lbs when I git rid of the outboard well so I have a net reduction of 450 lbs.
I have a few questions:
- Am I looking at the corrector weight? (sorry the photo is upside down and I can't figure out how to sort it)
- Does that sound right?
- Is there a class minimum weight?
- Should I be worried about helm?
Just after I posted last post with questions I found the thread on corrector weights. Most of my questions were answered there. Thanks! Still wondering if Commander owners who removed them like the change in performance?
While I did in fact remove the added ballast form C147 I ended up replacing it with very close to the same weight in batteries for my elec. drive. And while the replacement weight is approx. 1 foot higher in the boat Destiny sails very very well. I have had her out in 30mph winds and she will settle in with her rail just in the water and hold there.
I believe Mike who owns C227 took his added ballast out and did not replace it. Now I believe he has repowered with a Yanmar so you might try touching base with him.
I finally got around to installing a proper shuts off for the cockpit drains. I should have done it last year before the repower but put it off instead. Of course last spring when I launched one of the hoses leaked and I had to haul her had replace both hoses for the season. The job is a lot trickier with the engine in place but I managed it anyhow. First thing I realized was that the angle of the hull prevented me from simply installing a seacock. It would run straight into the engine if I tried to locate it in the same spot as the old drain hole. Also it is important to align the fitting with the drain tubes under the cockpit floor. The solution was to cut away the old tube from the hull and replace it with a new threaded fiberglass fitting that is aligned correctly. I found some nice extra heavy duty fiberglass threaded couplings from a company that manufactures these type of fittings for applications where fiberglass pipes are used to conduct corrosive liquids. Think chemical factory. They are really heavy duty, carefully machined, provide maximum flow and are cheap.
To cut away the old tube I made a guide by using a hole saw to cut the correct sized hole in a piece of plywood. I then taped the plywood to the hull and cut around the old stub from the outside. The hull is so thick that once you get the hole saw started in the hull you can gradually guide the blade to cut in at an angle toward the upper drain stub and produce an oblong hole that fits the coupling closely.
Once the old stub is gone from the hull I used a 4" grinder to expose fresh glass round the hole on the inside of the boat. Next step is to align the tube in the hole so it pointed at the upper stub. I wedged in some shims on the inside of the boat and laid a fillet of polyester filler on the outside of the boat to hold the tube in place. I laid in an epoxy fillet around the tube then glassed the tube to the hull. After this was dry I cut the tube flush on the outside and filled and faired with epoxy.
I coated the fresh tabbing on the inside with epoxy paint and installed a threaded nipple, 1 1/2" bronze ball valve, a pipe to hose adapter and a 6" piece of hose. I can easily reach the valve from the access doors in the cockpit floor and the interior. It was a pain in the ass but worth the piece of mind.
Water Tank.
I removed a very nice Monel water tank from under the v berth in the Gail Grace. I had no use for it and would rather have the storage space. I can't even guess what something like this would cost now. I had to break the brazing on the fill tube but otherwise it looks good. If anyone wants it I will pack it up and ship it - just pay the shipping.
Almost time to launch. I have a pretty long list of projects for this off season. I'm just about done. Here are a few highlights
Remove outboard well
Install cockpit scupper sea cocks
Install new nav station with cooler
Install all new electronics including:
Autopilot
AIS Transceiver
Wind, speed & depth
WIFI NMEA
LED courtesy lighting
LED lazzerete and engine compartment lights
Ipad interfaced with WIFI NMEA string with charting, routing and instrument display capability
Almost forgot - New winch pedestals. The old wood ones were clunky and were starting to split at the seams so I made new ones from 3/8" Aluminium. I had a local shop cut the pieces with a water jet including the Commander logo. Then I curved the upright piece with a press, welded the piecestogether and spent a couple of hours grinding and polishing. They are a little rough around the edges but are functional and an improvement over the wood blocks.
Grace of Gail Grace fame
I'm aware I'm repeating myself, but you do terrific work and you saved a wreck of a boat and brought her back to life. Warms my heart!
Those winch stands are epic. I missed the May posting of your nav station - which like everything else is top shelf.
Cheers to you and Grace - GG is quite a gal.
Your boat is so beautiful!
Thank you so much for the hardware.
For my next task, what is more important to put on: Boom Vang or a Cunningham?
Which will make handling the boat easier?
Thanks
joe
No worries. I'm glad I could find a home for the piece. A vang will probably give you more ability to shape your sail in more conditions.
Gail of Gail Grace Fame
These are really handy and pretty easy to make. A nice addition to any Commander or Ariel. They just pop on the combings and you can move them wherever you like - inboard or outboard. All you do is run a piece of 8/4 mahogany stock through a table saw with a dado blade set a little wider than your combings. (it might take a couple of passes) Cut the top piece with a hole saw and a scroll saw and the bottom piece with a table saw. Clean up the edges with a router, glue the three pieces together with epoxy, a few coats of varnish and voila - can holders that look like they are original equipment. A made one large enough to hold a wine bottle and also a removable cockpit table.
Here is one idea that solved several practical issues on my Commander: stairs to the interior; a seat for my new nav station; and storage for my hatch boards. I came up with a fairly simple plan that solves all of these issues. I made a box with a removable top to store my hatch boards. The box slides into guides screwed into the front face of the setees and doubles as the top step and a seat for me when I am at the nav station. The lower step drops into wooden brackets screwed into the setees and is easily removable. The box and lower step slide out so I can access the engine compartment. It works great and was pretty easy to make.
The box and step in place with hatch boards stowed
Hatch boards stowed
The box removed for access to engine compartment behind stairs. Note storage for cup holders built into the nav station.
Headed back to the yard up the Calumet River.
I've been adding a few improvements to Gail Grace this winter. I removed the original sink when I added the cooler and the nav station last year. This winter I reinstalled the sink and some storage with a removable cutting board forward of the starboard bulkhead. Just for laughs I installed a wine/booze bottle storage area in some dead space port aft. I can access it from the cockpit and the port quarter berth.
In good company at the dock awaiting haul out
Nice sail to the yard
(don't know why the image is rotated)
Course Correction
I decided to make a new rudder. The old rudder was perfectly fine however, the aperture was too small for the feathering prop I wanted to install. Also, I felt too much correction with the rudder was necessary in moderate to heavy air. I hate to mess with the original Alberg design. It is elegant and compliments the lines of the boat perfectly. However, I suspect my boat may have been delivered with a taller than standard rig. (Perhaps it was a Great Lakes – light air modification.) My P measurement is 1′ longer than than standard. Seat of the pants engineering led me to decide I needed to add 15% additional surface area on the trailing edge to help with the increased main sail area.
Initially I planned to open up the aperture and scarf some wood to the trailing edge but this stared to look too hacked together.
(https://bisquitreborn.files.wordpress.com/2022/05/20220327_170720-copy-1.jpg?w=1024)
Abandoned Modification
Back to the drawing board. remove the original bronze shafts and build a new rudder. Luckily I happened across a 6/4 x 24″ mahogany board that would allow a one piece replacement. It is a testament to the quality of the bronze that Pearson used that, after almost 60 years, when I removed the nut access windows, the bronze tie rods unscrewed like they were assembles yesterday. Once removed, I used an induction heater to heat up the upper shaft and bend it back 30 degrees to allow for the larger aperture.
Next step is to make a template for the new rudder. I installed the new prop then made a Masonite blank and experimented with shapes that cleared the new prop, had the additional surface area, and looked like they belonged to this classic design.
https://bisquitreborn.files.wordpress.com/2022/05/20220406_160419-copy-1.jpg
Once I decided on a shape I cut the plank to the new shape, ran the leading edge through a router with a 1″ rounding bit to accept the upper and lower shafts, drilled holes for the tie rods, then using a 1 1/2″ hole saw made windows for the new nuts.
https://bisquitreborn.files.wordpress.com/2022/05/20220412_181048.jpg
New rudder faired with nut windows filled.
Next step is to install, coat with epoxy barrier coat and bottom paint.
https://bisquitreborn.files.wordpress.com/2022/05/20220416_112754-1-copy-1.jpg
On the boat
https://bisquitreborn.files.wordpress.com/2022/05/20220416_130151-copy-1.jpg
Barrier Coated with IP 2000 E
https://bisquitreborn.files.wordpress.com/2022/05/20220419_142029.jpg
Bottom Painted and ready to go
If your old rudder is perfectly fine, as you mentioned, would you be interested in selling it to me?? Lucky Dawg is in need!
Kyle
Very nice work, it does indeed look as if it could be OEM Alberg/Pearson. :)
New rudder a gorgeous rendition. Totally impressed with your metal skills.
Did not miss your marvelous cast gudgeon. Love your moody photos too.
Here's to a 'Quiet reach' with your new rudder's tiller under your arm...
Kyle,
Sorry I didn't reply sooner. Got really busy. I reused the metal from the old rudder so there's nothing left.
Thanks. I managed to go for a sail in heavy air a couple of weeks ago. The new rudder is definitely an improvement in terms of balance.
Hey Phil,
Your work (and your blogging) is getting some love in the Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=10161101944386690&set=gm.2117851875240772&idorvanity=1037892126570091
Hope you and GG are well
Kyle