Ariel & Commander Owners

This thread is dedicated to photos of Ebb's refurbishing of Ariel #338.

The first photo is of Ebb's garage.  Note the conveniently placed tow vehicle near the door :)

Inside the garage . . .

Here is the replacement straongback as seen from the main cabin.

Another view of the sb construction:

Another of the SB

Last SB photo

Oops, forgot the support photo . . .

Reinforcing under foredeck

New knee for the forward chainplate.  Note the old Pearson tab inside the new structure.

Looking aft at the starboard cockpti locker from the main cabin.  Black pipe is new cockpit drain.

The cockpit drains exit through the new holes each side of the ob well.

This is a "shelf" built under the forepeak bunk (gone).  Custom water tanks are planned for port and stbd.

Well, that was the first of the series.  Stay tuned.  In about a month we will have more photos.  If you have questions, please ask Ebb.  All of this is way out of my area of expertise.  :p

Holy Moley!

Ebb you have been busy. That is going to be one stiff boat.

Very nice workmanship.

Let me know if you need some new chainplate bolts. I have some extra silicone bronze screws, nuts and washers. The screws are a half inch longer than the original ones.

C'Pete, how about these shots of Bill's.  Modifications on  a molecular level?  G a w d  I feel exposed!

I am fully open to criticism, advice and hate email, points of order,  rants and opinions.

Get back to you on the bronze.  Naturally I've upscaled the plates to 1/4 and fattened up the knees.  They aren't glassed yet either.
Thanks.

Ebb, that's gonna be one tough boat.

If you run into a whale out there, you'll have to drag the dead carcass home and sell it to a Japanese restaurant.

WOW!!!   A busy guy.  Enjoyed the show.  Looking forward to Part 2 of "Ebb's Modifications on a Molecular Level."

You guys have now sufficiently motivated / shamed me into  a much more extensive houlout than planned.

I don't know whether to thank you or to  curse you all....

Ebb!
Are you crazy? You'll shoot your eye out!
Seriously though, that's substantial AND fine looking work you've done on 338.  I too, will be waiting for part two and am comforted in the fact that the road before has been paved for me( with your sweat and effort:D )  I'm glad I just 'dumped'a lot of photos from memory the other day 'cause now I can fill it back up with these.

Ebb,
I'm jealous , wanted to do a radical interior like yours , but not with the boat in the water and dont have the right real estate for storage .
I'm drinking a Beamish stout to #338 !

Ebb
What material did you use for your stringers you added up front?  Is that just kerf cut wood?  How 'bout them tunnels under your cockpit?  You're planning on removing alot of water!  Better prepared than sunk.  Those are pretty clean through hulls under the quarter, is it all FRP?  It kind of looks like PVC.  Does the galley sink tie into the cockpit drain or are you going sans sink in lieu of take out?  Hey while I'm rambling on the subject how big of cockpit scuppers did you add?  Won't sleep 'till I know...

By the way Bill, Thanks for the fun and I hope you were properly compensated for your efforts :D

Tony sir, shoot my eye out?  Must be my daughter's generation. Shoot my wad, that I can do.   This is a very expensive proposition  that only the wise and the lucky should attempt. Otherwise you're like me:  you just shoot first and pay the consequences later.

Rambling on:
The stringers now run continuous from stem to lazarette.  In the fo'csl they taper to the stem.  It's just kerfcut Alaskan yellow cedar (from decking material.)  I copied Pearson's spwcs: 1 1/2" X 1 1/2",   3/4" rounded.  Pearson's are mahogany.   338's are not a fair run main cabin to the forward compartment.   Which for some reason annoys the hell outa me.  Because I couldn't fix it.

The tunnels are epoxy frp gas pipe,  it's about 2 3/16" ID.  Pricey, Very strong and stiff.   It's the forward drains that required the long run under the cockpit.  That plywood Portageese strongback is gonna GO!

The pipe uses wierd cast epoxy 90s - T.s - and 45s.  The T-leg is cut short and tight to the cokpit bottom to bring the run up as high as I could get it to get a decent drop.  Exits above the waterline.  (where's the waterline?)  I put T's   there into the cabin rather than 90s for cleanouts (othjerwise the run would be blind) and to maybe add a sink drain to one.    The sink would have to be two inches deep.   There are 45s at the transom exit to help keep backflow minimum.   No flappers maybe.

I want to put scuppers in the rear too.   There are many issues to be dealt with in this area.  But they'll probably be straight thrus like the rudder tube.

Galley sink is another kettle of fish.  If the refit ends up a bachelor pod, the bachelor then could lift one of the two buckets  (IE double sink) and dump it down a special funnel in the cockpit scupper.  Hell,  this b. is tall enough to wash his bowl and spoon leaning over the bridgedeck from inside, almost.

The plan is to waterproof the cockpit lockers.  And it's  hard not to think about putting in propane lockers in the afterend.  I'ld like to kick this one around with the captains courageous here.

cheers Mike, et al,  soon as the jaberwoky whistles  I'll hoist a Beamish Stout with the crew.

hey ebb, i was wondering what your final plan is for plumbing, etc.
where/how much are your custom water tanks?
where is your holding tank going?
my current water tank is the original gavanized or common steel (can't tell which) and has rusted to oblivion.
and the holding tank was a 15-year old- .00005 mL capacity plastic bladder.  originally sold as the (not kidding here) "Poo-Loo System"  when i pulled on the handle to check the condition, the handle pulled out of the ultra thin plastic walls. so i am now totally out of USCG plumbing code. (good thing i am also totally out of the water...)
anyway, let us know your longterm plumbing plans (especially in-boat arragements and sources)

-km #3

Capt. km#3.  I had a monel tank up there in the Vee.  I took it out per the tips in the Manual and recycled it.  This is now where the chain locker is being constructed in 338.

So I moved the watertank(s) to both sides of the remaining V-berth.  Laborously made two 1/4" luan ply models in the spaces (including barrelstaving the side along the hull.)  Instead of a triangular section tank I glassed in a narrow foot for the tanks to rest on.  So the tanks are sort of 4 sided. Plus ends.

(I figured the tanks to be about 20 gals each.  That 300 pounds. a considerable weight up forward.  That's bulkhead to blkhd under the original plywood berth tops.))

I then set about trying to find someone to make the damn things in polyethylene or polypropolene.  Made up kits of photos and measurements and places for fittings.  Not one single return.  These custom guys who hot air weld the plastic can only think in right angles.  The curved side of the tank, I think,must have insulted them.

I'm going to have to use the models for  forms myself to make them out of vinylester and glass.  This is probably not a problem,  but I understand is very labor intensive - I can use the time elsewhere on the refit.  One can still get tanks made from monel.   At $600 a pop for the poly I got on one quote that didn't pan out  I may ask a welding shop how many thousands a monel one goes for.   Stainless is not currently a choice because of rust at the welds. But I will research that.  It's also added weight.  A glass one will no doubt weigh more than a metal one.

I really don't lnow as I haven't made any tanks befor.  It just seemed easier to pay thru the nose for a hand crafted one than do it myself.

I thought the holding tank could go up forward if and when I get to it but don't know for sure.  I'm putting in a new watertight bulkhead right where the watertank and the sanipooper used to be.  The Theteford head will be right there where it has to be between the V-berths untill I upscale down the line.                       :rolleyes:

Yes, and I'm going to have to be monitered real close here by you guys when I do get to the plumbing and electrics!

Ok, time to get back to the original thread.  Although the olive harvest and wine crush were getting in the way, Ebb did make some progress in the past couple of months.  

First there is the (very) modified outboard engine layout in the lazarette.  Check this out . . .

Hmm.  Thought I had figured out how to
reduce the photo size, but I guess not.  

Need to proceed, so please be patient
with these oversized pics.  
Next, we have three views of the chain locker progress:

No 1 is taken from outside the forecabin

No 2 is looking threw the new bulkhead

Chainlocker number 3 is looking into the locker

And, one more pic.  This is a real work of art.

There you are, photo exhibits of Ebb's progress.  

Ebb will now answer your questions about the ob well modifications.

Bil,  Appreciate the photos but you need to get them under control!  Here's my method:

1.  Drag the photo into Paint. (If you have Windows, you      should have Paint in your programs.) It is found under "Accessories" in Programs.  I put "Paint" on my desktop so I can easily drag the photo into it.

2.  Once the photo is opened up in Paint, go to Image.
      then select "Stretch".  Then downsize, "50" works well in the horizontal and vertical boxes.

3. Then save it wherever.

Its a rather lengthy process that I detest, however it works.  If there is an easier way, which I can't believe there isn't in this day and age of computer advances,  somebody PLEASE let me know.

Now for that busy busy guy, Ebb, what is the purpose for the half circles in the chain locker, and what is that beautiful work of art shown in the last photo?

And Happy holidays to you all.  I'm heading up North hopefully for a white  New England Christmas.


:cool:

now that you have that chain locker (a) where is your head going to be installed and (b) what are you going to do with the volume forward of the chainlocker?

what is the story with the OB well?  is it an attempt to seal it off from the bilge and let the water drain from the well all by itself?  or is it designed to ship the water into the cockpit so those drains can take care of it?

i really like the half circles in the vertical supports on the chain locker.  are they there so you have access to tab/glass/glue/affix the small "shelves"?

but really beautiful work there, even if it doesn't all fit on my screen at once.  :p

out
km#3

Ok kids,
You'll notice first that the ledge over the cutouts is what remains of the original Vberth after excising the bow tank per the Manual's instructions.
The pieces with the cut outs are verticals that match the fore and aft bulkheads.

The idea is to have two poly boxes (troughs) made that would have a lip that would go over the ledge and be cinched down with permanent bolts coming up thru the ledge.  Two bookmatched boxes separated foreandaft down the middle.  The bolts would be long enuf to drop on lids that would be held down with wing nuts. To keep chain in place when the boat is "inverted."

These half circle openings are for access to insert the bolts up thru the holes and hold the heads to tighten.

After all ten bolts are jam nutted,  the locker is to be Xmatted with epoxy,  Four sides of the locker and the bottom.  The holes will be spanned with the mat. hopefully creating a waterproof  interior.  It may need another layer of cloth to be sure.  Then the poly boxes are to be made (but I'm still upset that no custom poly tank maker could be found willing or capable of making the new side watertanks.)  So I think plywood will be a good  alternative.  And it's more replaceable down the line. The boxes are fastened in place with their own set of nuts.  The lid goes on over with its own wingnuts.  All on the same bolts.

The chainlocker and forepeak are in the 'crash bulkhead' watertight area so drainlines from each will be piped down the bilge to the sump.     Screw-on caps or valves  for control.  One could hose out the forward lockers and pump it out from the sump under the companionway ladder.

Conceivably,  the cloth and epoxy over the unfilled hole will allow cutting out to replace a mangled bolt.  Afterall this is the chain and anchor locker.  Just paste a piece of cloth and resin back over the hole.   The holes in the bottom of the chainlocker can also be cut out if a major repair is necessary to the hull from inside.

Between the pvc pipes at the bottom of the new bulkhead in one of Bill's posters you'll notice a faint circle  where the sonar thru-hull comes in.   The sensor is molded into the cutwater edge of the stem. The actual sensor is not mounted yet.  You may notice there is limited access under the chain locker here as well.  This is where the bow tank supply was, the hole has been cut larger.

The portapotti will be mounted on a new removable platform there in the Vee.  I really like the concept of a composting toilet.  Airhead is the obvious candidate because of its size (smaller than Sunmar) but it is way taller than the Thetaphart.  Like the idea that if you are forced by the unenlightened to cargo yer effluent around you might as well compost it.  Does require constant elecricity.  P.S. has a recent evaluation.

Ok, we have figured out how to
reduce the photo size,  but in the process, this pic got deleted and so had to be re posted here.  Sorry about that.  This is the first photo of the chain locker progress and was taken from just outside the forecabin.

(thanks, Bill, for the much easier ride down this thread!)

Problem:   Get an 8h Yamaha 4 stroke electric tilt to be happy in an antigue Ariel motor well.
Problem:   No way to get the motor's muscular multipurpose arm operational unless strate-up vertical with the added ignominy of the rather large hatch open and clipped to the backstay.
Problem:   Yamaha's muscular clamp drags in the water when mounted on original clamping board.  [chorus, 'Get a Nissan 6, weighs only 20#!']

Solution:   Cut the blinking offending cross bridge away and raise the motor 4".  No brainer.  [chorus, 'Didn't take any brains to make That change.']
      A block and tackle end-of-boom mainsheet (no travelor) could conceivably still be mounted there.   But a mid-boom (actually aft of mid-boom) sheet on the dodger frame over the companionway makes mucho better sense IMCO.  I can see no structural compromise to the boat with the bridge taken out.  [Chorus:  hi-ho  any engineers amongst us?]

Of course I don't believe that 100%.  SO.  You can surmise from Bill's photo that the cockpit well is not connected to the bulkhead.  While there still is access we can get in from the cabin thru the side lazarettes,   the cockpit will be heavily tabbed to the bulkhead and the bulkhead tabbed to the hull (missing in 338 under the cockpit.)

The white stuff in the photo is cardboard and doorskin. the ply clamp board is temporary.  Playing with the space you can see what happens when you raise the 'gascan' deck up to the top of the original well.  Looks to me we got at least an 8gal space each side  (all the foam, everything's gone in the laz execept the well collar, so it's not hard to see.)   Think: built in vinylester gas tank, bladder with access plate, foam positive flotation, or plain stowage - I opt for glassed in tanks.  Who's going to insure this boat, anyway?   OK, this gascan deck is the major element in the integrity of the well and the whole rear end of the Ariel.  Distributes the vibration and loads of the motor thruout the stern.  This could be the arguement FOR solid foam-in-place.    What we took out was 3/8s fir ply with 1/4" laminate over.  (remember, even that, all that polyester didn't keep water from entering the foam underneath.)

Just raising the clampboard 4 inches seems to create a possibility that the arc of the motor may have more or less the same radius as it is tilted in relation to the rise of the stern and the transom.  So if the same portion of the shaft protrudes from the boat a solution to the backwash problem might be a simple overlapping  rubber gland  to protect the opening yet let the motor slip up and down.  Certainly the slot in the transom might be treated this way   Like a backflow flap on a thru-hull.  Then again, it may all be rubber duck's breath.

you asked...

"I can see no structural compromise to the boat with the bridge taken out.[Chorus: hi-ho any engineers amongst us?]"

actually, there are two parts to this story:

1)  the bridge was under a bending moment because of the forces on the mainsheet.  it performed the function of keeping the two parts closer to horizontal.  and really, the vertical parts ofteh bridge are the work-horses here, just like in a steel I-beam.  without it you will see much more flexure of the two posts, upward, and the most severe flexure will happen when one of the two sheet-halves is exactly vertical from the deck (when the boom is right over the post)  the degree of flexure, i don't know, i could run a few calcs if the moment strikes me and if "Marks handbook" has values for shear strength of fiberglass.

2)  the bridge was in compression.  the two halves of the mainsheet angle toward each other and that component of the forces puts the bridge in compression.  this means that the posts will have much greater flexture toward each other (in addition to the upward motion).  this is greatest when the main is between the two posts, but is always evident regardless of boom position.

some back-of the envelope calcs will some reduction in ultimate strength and increase in flexture, but really some Finite element analysis will show how much the surrounding structure supports the posts.  attached is an image that i might use as my b.o.t.e. calcs.

Ariel is essentially a monocogue, ie it is the skin that carries the forces put upon it.

If you mounted blocks on either side of the opening where the 'bridge' was and pull up or sideways on them the stress is taken up instantaneously by a multitude of points strengthened by the curves and stiffened by the turns in the surface of the craft.

The force could be so great on one point it might tear out a chunk - but the essential  shape can't change.  Of course there could be sheer forces that might delaminate the skin.

Bulkheads keep the boat from twisting.  Bamboo is an example of this construction.  We have a matching set of longitudinal stiffners to insure against oilcanning - or shape changing, which really would compromise the structure.  The more bulkheads, the better they are tabbed in,  the less twist and canning.  (I will bet that the sweet rounded form of the hull and it's thickness has never oil-canned in anybody's experience?)

The problem of the missing bridge may be that there is not enuf bulkhead there to totally stabilize the aft end of our peapod.  Suppose we think of it as just an extra long cockpit.  Now that the bridge is down.

That's why lifting the 'gascan' deck to make a horizontal bulkhead might help.  Ribbing or flanges  going up to the deck on the sides of the tilting slot may add some immobility.  Altering that signature great-hatch by reconfiguring the deck back there - making it wider with a smaller hatch - keeping the look and sculpture, but only raise a center portion.

The cockpit well is not connected to the companionway bulkhead or the aft bulkhead.  It's just hanging in there - part of the deck mold.    I'm convinced that the cockpit must be majorly married to the lazarette bulkhead.  This ought to create  solid bracing and stiffness for the new open and much longer than the Commander's  cockpit.  It's redundant strength,  and over-building and weight, paranoia, etc -  because IMCO the shape won't change.  Have to keep it from twisting.  

Squeezed between two freighters?  Sure.  On a coral reef in a typoon...  the boat's a sugar cube

well, that's what I feel.  You'ld have to perform actual tests on the boat to produce engineering data, wouldn't you,  Capt Mrgnstn.....?

Another visit to the Borregaard Yacht Works in San Rafael.  This time, we will be looking at the progress on some of Ebb's more interesting modifications.  Beginning with the outboard motor well:

View #2 of the ob well:

And the view from the outside:

Then there is the "new" foredeck hatch.  Actually, it's to access the anchor chain from the chain locker:

Another view of the foredeck hatch:

Third & final . . .

Let's go inside and take a look at the new chain locker:

And the well in the chainlocker:

And the drains leading from the chainlocker:

Finally, Ebb did a handsome job of glassing the tubes that pass through the cockpit sole to the hull (rudder shaft and two aft cockpit drains).

Well-I guess they all just accept it from you by now!  But I've got some questions...when are you coming to MN next?:D   When I peeled open the lazarette I was disapointed.  Lots of unsaturated glass, huge gaps between the plywood and glass laminates, no where near as structural as I expected, etc., etc..  I am begining to believe Pearson never imagined these boats would last this long and therefore did marginal work.  Or did I just get a lemon?  
In the first new photo...You've beefed up(read added) the bulkhead between the lazarette and the c-pit.  Is that new bulkhead sistered to the factory sort-of one allready there or is it new construction all the way? On 113 that partial filler plywood piece that spans the area from the hull curvature upwards to a horizontal plane about even with the c-pit floor is canted aft big time.  I wouldn't be able to sister a plywood bulkhead to it from top to bottom.  So I'm wondering if 338 had just as lousy glass work back there and you replaced it or if you had something more substantial and even to begin with.  In your earlier posts you stressed the need for strength in that area because of the c-pit reconfiguration and from what I've seen that would mean rebuild.
Up front
Is that a solid epoxy riser in the shape of the foredeck hatch frame or am I seeing things(again)?  If it is, how did you get that shape so well?  Surely wasn't tooled!  Molded insitu?
Down below
In photo #9 I can follow the drain pipes coming from the Pearson anchor chain locker okay but to the right and running mostly vertical there is a slightly curved pipe peeking through the cut-out where the old water tank effluent would have been.  Is that more drainage?  From the Ebb chain locker perhaps I thought but no, you're having some poly tubs made for rode storage and it couldn't serve them because they are not there in the photo.  What the devil is that!!
Photo # 10
Ester, would you look at the pipes on that fella!  Are 338's new c-pit drains more of the frp gas pipe used for the forward scuppers?  Nice work but here I'm more interested in technique.  Do you lower your epoxy and glass, tools etc. down one c-pit hatch then climb in the other and work or did you have help?  Devine intervention?
Looks real good, Ebb.  Your work on 338 keeps me inspired and motivated way over here in the frozen north.  We won't be doing anything as 'radical' as you but then we're just blowin' around some pot holes and you're gonna plant yer toes in some warm foreign sand.  Tony G

Something here.  I'm rilly glad yer innerested on this remod.  I do want feedback,  I do want to be called on stuff.  I don't want to screw up a gorgeous Alberg design.  Sometimes I think the way I express my views is confusing and annoying.  Even to myself. Need all the help I can get.

Capt.  Tony'
Your aft bulkhead sounds like it deserves a photo here.  The bulkhead is a single piece of 3/4 ply.  There just might be an extra piece put in as a filler that got dislodged.  There is a filler in the OB access hole, around the inside, which allowed mat to be drapped around more easyly when they were finishing the hole.  But it is no bigger than the end of the cockpit.  It's just filler.  The space must have been thought necessary to make it easier to mate the deck/cockpit molding with the hull when assembling the boat.  They allowed themselves Plenty of room.  

338's sounds somewhat like yours, but I have since found that it is at right angles to the center line, meaning that it was put in square and vertical.  However when the farmers put it in they cut it much too small so there was huge gaps on the edges that were indeed stuffed with unsaturated mat and roving.  I tore out everything that was loose, cleaned out the holes, filled them with pints of mishmash, radiused the corners and reglassed the bulkhead with x-mat & epoxy and tabbed it to the hull.

Having no engine below, having removed the icebox which in 338 had a large hole cut in the companionway blkhd, I cut a simular hole in the port side.   Tho with the seacocks and hose removed from the aft cockpit drains I discovered it was very easy to haul oneself under the c'pit and into the locker areas with the pegboard discarded - to get to the inside of the lazarette bulkhead.

After the blkhd was faired and glassed on both sides, the space between the back of the c'pit well and the blkhd was furred-out and filled and glassed to the blkhd.  Did the same at the other end.  Thus marrying the cockpit footwell to the bulkheads,  

There are stress cracks where the rudder tube comes into the c'pit floor, where Pearson had put very little reinforcement on the underside of the deck. (More may have been a bad idea,)  If I wanted to put in 'straight-thru' drains (just like the rudder tube) I felt I had to immobilized whatever possible, to the greatest extent reasonable.   I glassed the tubes in first with x-mat going thru the holes with the tube and turning the mat onto the flats outside,   Then I laid on another layer of mat over the pipe and up to the inside.  The inside of the hull and the underside of the c'pit.  Then there is the bugle-shaped sculpting (epoxy/cabosil/chopped strand) and a final layer of mat.  The rudder tube got the bugle up top to match the bottom Pearson did - with extra layers of mat.  Interesting that the cockpit sole still can flex when walked on - it is about 3/16s thick with strips of plywood matted to the bottom for stiffning.  Not a whole lot.

There are, of course, arguable merits to leaving the cockpit suspended and semi-flexible.  I chose to lock it all together because I removed the aft bridge (and Mrgnstrn was on my case)  Monoque.  I warn you that the grinding and prep necessary especially of the hull and the underside to the cockpit structure is beyond the pale, or pail, whatever it is, you have to be Nuts to undertakeit!  I had heroic help!
...........................................................................................................................................................................................................
MORE ABOUT POST #47
Way later EDIT (7/13)  
Back in 2007-8 there appeared in a Seacocks thread on the Fuji Yacht Owners Forum (Fuji Yachts Home Page) an exchange
where the three tubes photo  was reproduced in that thread and comments where made: anzam1 said,   .... "This set up looks pretty failsafe to me and I would not be opposed to something like that on my boat."  
BrianC responds:  "One serious proviso.....If anyone does this !DO NOT! use all the filler this person has done to create a grossly oversized fillet.  All that filler is a weak link in the system.  A fillet is certainly needed (glass will not assume a sharp bend and even if it did, glass is strongest when the fibers are straight) but max 1" radius is more than si=ufficient.  Even less is sufficient if the glassing is applied spiral fashion.  The pix on my site do not shown the way the glass is applied so I will try and get some time shortly to do a mockup for photos that show what I am talking about."

In the thread this is quoted from, which was about thru-hulls and seacocks, nobody commented on what BrianC posted.  No right-way-to-do-it
photos appeared.... that this person saw.  I think most readers could see that BrianC's experience with FRP was limited.  And he also did not know what the situation was under the cockpit in 'this person's' Ariel.  
The bell shaped expansions at the top and bottom of the tubes (while perhaps not aesthetically pleasing) are not "FILLETS."  Call them bolsters, maybe.  They are reinforcement backing for inaccessible holes thru the hull - that can not have valves to shut them off if damaged.  They are definitely overbuilt - they probably should be isolated with a protective bulkhead in case a battery ever gets loose when upside down at sea.  BUT I thought them pleasing, if not whimsical,   because I modeled my additions after Pearson's original  free standing rudder tube stalagmite using  their bugle reinforcement of the rudder tube where it comes into the Ariel hull at the waterline.  Bettered theirs up a bit....  and buttered up the new drains made with 3/32" thick  spiral wall gasline epoxy pipe -- into hollow support columns.

Epoxy is used, of course, to upgrade ancient polyester.  By definition this is 'dry' construction, as opposed to wet where additions are added to green frp work as the boat is being built at factory, by my definition overbuilding is a good idea.  The bell shape widens the dead loads that will occur on this cockpit floor, that also transfer to the hull.
You may notice in the photo, this cockpit has been immobilized with  longitudinal bulkheads that marry the free hanging cockpit "bowl" to the hull beneath it.
The rudder tube (with its bell-shaped buildup of matt and who knows what?) was not attached (glued/glassed) to the underside of the cockpit  BUT deliberately by Pearson - because Ariel cockpits are hung loose and unsupported -  not attached anywhere except higher up where the molding becomes seats and bridgedeck.  Had a real problem with that concept!  
Since I stabilized the cockpit, I attached the rudder tube to the sole.
ALL the new bell-ends are composed of mishmash (epoxy, fumed silica, chopped strand) on top of fiberglass, as describe above  here,  with more glass cloth or biaxial matt on top of everything to finish.  These tubes support compression loads....the cockpit floor -- in A338's case of factory encapsulated plywood strip reinforcement -- still somewhat limber...
Again, not BrianC's textbook construct.  But thick backup plates of bullet-proof mishmash is not unknown (see "Fibreglass Boats, by Hugo duPlessis, AdlardColes 1966.  Reinforcing frp tubes per se' is not covered there, but it has been my glass bible since the beginning.)
About as strong as I can see how to do.... on my stomach with arms genuflecting.... into that cramped (and soon to be forgotten) corner in the aft end of the cockpit!   There will, of course, be an access hatch in the sole into that part of the boat - as there should be.   Batteries will be under the bridge-deck where in other Ariel's an Atomic 4 was intended.

OK.  I make pretty careful patterns out of poster paper.  Then it gets traced onto x-mat.  If there are bends I dot lines on the mat so I know exactly where it goes on the work.  X-mat* is mat with light roving sewn to it, it is very docile, unlike cloth, it doesn't mind being poked into corners eg.  Compound corners  a problems but yer likely to do it without getting bubbles. I cut it with scissors -- even wet with resin -- if I get a dart wrong.  It is easy to pile on layers. *Biaxial matt comes in a few heavy weights, and also in 'tapes'.  This is matt made for epoxy resins.

When you start, it is just stiff enuf to stand against the work upright.  So you can test it first if you don't trust yer pattern. It likes to stay where you put it.  Then you wet the work, with lots of resin, pat the mat in place, you can briefly reposition, move it around, unlike cloth.  The surface stays dry for a short while while you try to find a position to lie in with the container of mix on your chest or perched on yer neck  and where you figure the brush will end up at the end of your arm which is on the wrong side of you body.  Wetting it out sticks it good to the work and you use the tip of the brush to work out a bubble or flatten a hair or poke it into a corner.  A 2 or 2 1/2" china bristle brush fits the tight work best, have more control moving the liguid to the mat.  Too much epoxy and it can run out... but it's so thirsty you'll never allow yourself the luxury of too much!

Preferably, you can wet out the matt on plastic film, peel it off, slap it on, press it tight...without dragging a wet brush to your work.  You can also make your gloved handy-work look clean and also soak up resin by laying on thin 4 or 6 oz woven glass cloth.  Biaxial matt doesn't like handling.  You can extend working time on matt by poking and pushing with the chip brush...  But you can gloved hand shape & sculpt by cheating with pieces of light weight glass fabric.  (However, if you later are going to grind or scrape when set,  stay with the matt.  Cloth is for finishing.)

When hard,  it leaves an extremely rough surface that you cannot easily sand to prep - so you must use no-blush 100% solids epoxy, if like I often do, leave it for a day or two.  The matt is a perfect mechanical surface to add to, without prep grinding, IMCO

Clean up accidents and runs and the work area with paper rags and isopropyl alcohol*.  I have favorite mixing containers so I wipe them out with alcohol too.  Mix Part A and Part B in straight-sided pint containers using a wooden paint stirring stick constantly scrapping the side of the pot.  I often decant into a larger pail, and stir some more.  The brush won't drown if the juice isn't deep and won't run the handle as much.  Don't draw the bristles outward across the edge - pat one side of the loaded brush on the inside of the pail and quickly go to the work befor the brush understands what you're doing and recovers... to drip on your hair.
*Hardware store Methyl alcohol is toxic.  It's better to use 91% Isopropyl alcohol from the drug store.

When it's hard, I use Sandvic carbide scrapers, smallest makita angle grinder with those hard-flapper disks, cloth back grit for finger work.  Anything shiney: scuff it. Better to work on it first day or two befor it turns hard and glassy.

Hey, you still with me, boy?  Wake up, there!!:D

Ebb
You've mentioned no-blush all solids epoxy...what is your brand?

Great stuff, ebb. Very ingenious.

I've been thinking about adding extra cockpit drains too. However, I'm concerned that seawater might be forced up the short tube into the cockpit. "Ram effect," or something like that. Not alot of water, just an annoying little bit.

I have a friend whose boat does that, but only sometimes. I think it happens when the boat is heeled over and extra crew brings the stern down.

Some people cross the drains to the opposite side. But, that is supposed to make the drains less able to empty the cockpit of boarding seas, which is the whole purpose.

Anyways, nice work there.

What's the name of your baby?

Gentlemen, Thank you.
I did post a reply, but it ain't here!!!

First, Tony, did you get the reply on the beam lam?  Hope so.

C'Pete,
I tried to take into account the consequences of putting the rear drains in like they are with the cockpit deck so close to the waterline.   [338s forward drains exit aft Above the current waterline, while the rear drains exit aft under the current waterline.]  It was a shoot first take the consequences later decision.  Ive spent hours looking for a retrofit flapper valve.  No wonder Pearson didn't put in rear drains.  There are a number of different kinds.  Ones at the cockpit deck like a ball in a cage type take up too much of the drain volume.   But are right there to keep an eye on.

A power boat exhaust flapper on the bottom side in the water would probably be my choice,  but I worry about the pressure of the outside water not allowing the cockpit to evacuate.  So nix that.  I'm thinking the flapper idea could be adapted to the cockpit deck drain.  But again, at what cost to emptying the c'pit quickly?

So, how about a sliding ss or bronze drain plate that  could slide open fully when needed.   It would be captured under a flange, the flange screwed like any fitting to the deck.  Yah shure, there are design considerations here and a month or two of design time and model making, etc.  For the moment, when I go sailing (OH GLORIOUS DAY) I'll screw shower drains over the holes.  Something will come up.  Hopefully not too much briney.

I was thinking, the holes might make annoying gurggling sounds, as well.  

Crossing the drains could be done couldn't it?  Would one use hose?   Probably dangerous in the back without ready access.  Seacocks: impossible.  What considerations are there at the companionway in a Commander?  It would be possible to do a 'hard' install in the back with angles and pipe.  PVC and epoxy mate well, I've heard.  It IS tight back there!

The ball in a cage check valve is worth looking into.  There are a couple, anyway, and if I recall, they are a fitting - in that they can be incorporated into normal or existing plumbing.

"Life is hard, but it sure is a lot of fun!":D

Tony, haven't heard on several of your issues.  Here is something on the after cockpit bulkhead.
On the 2nd page of this thread about half way down is one of Bill's photos from the first shoot that shows 338's cockpit with the aft 'bridge' cut away.  It clearly shows the sides of the vertical hatch that provided access to the OB well and lazarette.  The bulkhead is the ply that is closest to the inside of the lazarette.  The ply that is closest to the cockpit is the filler.

The filler, in 338, is no wider or any longer than the well.  The factory put it in to enable the drapping of the mat around the hatch there when they were closing the boat in.  I suppose it could be a different shape in yours.

Is this the piece that came loose in 113?  I really don't see any way the bulkhead could have moved even if there is lot of unsaturated garbaqe along the hull inside under the funky tabbing.  The funky tabbing they never thought anybody would see - except you and me!  The lazarette bulkhead is also tabbed to the hull on the laz. side.  So it is very secure.

#6 photo shows the Bomar riser made from the mahogany strip liner in the hole with mishmash on the outside under the hatch bottom.

#9 shows the access under the chain locker,  Just access.  Three tubes:  Straight one on left comes from drain hole in forepeak.  Bent one on right sweeps up to hole in chain locker.  Both will continue by conduit under the sole to the sump and end in threaded ball cocks.  Short upright is a piece of the sonar model which is sculpted into the stem.   Cheers................Ebb

Ebb
I'm still here.  Maybe this weekend I can get some pics loaded to the site and that may flesh out the piece of usless ply I've been asking about.  Except now that I've ground away all the unsaturated roving and glass it doesn't look as scary.  Still has to go!  After all we gotta clear that area for a new mizzen mast step just in case.  Why did you 86 the inboard for an outboard again?

Capt. T,
338 came from the factory with an OB well.  What appears to be an extra large hole is what it looks like after the box or collar or sides of the well were removed.  It was ground back even further when it was discovered that the hull mold was made with the OB hole - you know, like the deck mold was made with the hatch holes in place - but just a flange - and the well sides added later after the deck was attached to the boat.
Also ground that flange away which was gel coated and incorporated into the joining process.  Didn't want to rely on old polyester pasted onto gel coat.  The well also looked like later alterations had been done.

I felt  the Yamaha 8/4. had to be custom fitted because it's so big and heavy.

What was below at the bottom of the companionway in 338 and in thw way of any access were the stubbed off factory straight-thrus and later added seacocks with hose etc.  Is was C'Pete who pointed out the many connecting points (that can go wrong) like clamps, hose, valves etc.  I committed early on to continuing with the OB and wanted the space below the c'pit for stowage.  Drains went out the back.  

When Capt. Brent thought about putting his batteries under the cockpit, I thought it a great idea.  So batteries where the BETA diesel would go became my plan - I have the flush deck access hatch for the c'pit.  The framing under the cockpit for the bats and rather large hatch will create substancial strength and rigidity.

The long answer:D

Hope you are proceeding with your upgrade!!!!!

Paid another visit to #338 and here are the results.  

The first photos are of the "motor clamp board" being installed at the forward end of the ob well .  . from  below

And from above (ie., from the cockpit)

Next, we have the fuel tanks (the starboard side is shown).  The hold approximately 8 gal each.

Here is the top of the tank and lid assembly as modeled by the captain ..

Here is the new bottom deck in the port cockpit locker.

The forward bulkhead in the port cockpit locker.  When completed, the locker will be sealed off from the interior of the boat.

Approximate location where the propane tanks will go UNDER the deck (one will be outboard of the tank in the photo).

Quarter berth is moved back into starboard cockpit locker.  It will be sectioned off from hatch by creating a small storage locker under the hatch cover that will be sealed off from the interior.

Starboard quater berth from the main cabin.  Photo on bulkhead is of Cape Dory 25 from same the angle.  Appears to be a model for the modification.

The new (yet to be installed) mast base step.

It will move as shown by the capitan.

Ebb
Holy Hot Tomale!  There's lots of really good stuff goin' on out there in CA.  (Unfortunately none of it has to do with the 'gubinatorial' race-Coleman all the way, right? Finish your boat fast.)
As always you have first-class work all the way on 338.  Love the outboard well.  It looks 'wet' to me but hey I lack ALOT of experience when it comes to sailing these boats.  Did you scrap the aft cockpit scuppers or am I not really seeing what I think I'm seeing?  We'll be watching the propane locker ever so closely as I'm trying to find a place to put them on 113.  I was thinking a small locker forward because even with a pretty good heel the drain vent would still be above the waterline though I don't anticipate being on any tack for several days at a time and it would mean a longer run of supply hose inside the cabin(think propain not propane).  I don't want to put one topside because no matter what they look footlockers lashed to the deck and besides that's where the genset and A/C belong.  Port cockpit locker has a smaller rectangular access cut into the floor.  What has Ebb planned for that bugger?  Quarter berth, fantastico! Even the remainder of the aft bulkhead looks comfortable.  And finally, how 'bout that mast step!  I think I'll have to add one of those to our order.  
I'm jealous Ebb, tell us what's what!  It's so humid here the tyvek sticks like a wet suit and restrict your movements.  I've given up trying untill we get cooler, drier air.  Tony G

Thanks Bill,  more forensics for an emerging body of evidence!

Hey, Tony, too bad about the wet where you are.  Here, it's just the epoxy going off in ten minutes and dripping gallons of sweat into the work.

The OB well as you see it would indeed be wet.  The hole is still in its grinded back state.  Will try some ideas out on just how to close it up a bit.  Soon.

The aft scuppers have a patch still on them from the final leveling.  Never got round to the final color coat or cutting the hole free.  Wear is doing the job.

Man, I have Agonized over the propane locker.  That little stubby bulkhead under the locker-lid scupper isn't glassed in yet.  Putting the locker there makes the only remaining exterior locker space very short and small.  But the gas would be right next to the appliance.   Though much too close to the waterline.  Any feedback on that, guys?  Couldn't use the stove, probably, except in the marina.  Or on a port tack.   Maybe here one could use one of those ball-in-cage backflow devices???  I mean on the thru hull drain out the side of the locker!

It'll take a bit of Houdini to glass it in properly.  In fact, getting the bottom of the whole locker in took 1/2 an hour of jockying!  The bottom of the locker is above the level of the cockpit deck and tilts toward it for draining.

I may go with a square rather than round (shopmade) hatch to get better access to regulator, gauge and hose.  You need a 12 1/2" hole to get those 10# (2 1/2 gal) tanks in.  And they are not a common size.  A slightly shorter version than I got of these are available from  W.M.  (They don't 'stock' these catalog items so you can't go in and actually measure them - the catalog sez they are 12 1/2 " tall - mine from a propane service at $38 a pop are 14 - But I was desparate!)

Because under the cockpit is home to the battery box (yet to come,) that access hole in the locker is just that.  You need to get to any part of the hull with relative ease.     If I put another stubby bulkhead under the locker deck. I'll be able to use that area for extra stowage, and not loose stuff down under.  Underneath the proposed propane locker there is space for mounting electrical support toys with access behind the ladder and under the bridge deck.

I have also put in longitudinal bulkheads that run along the edge of the cockpit underneath.  They run from the lazarette bulkhead to the companionway blkhd.  And provide another kind of stringer in the rise of the hull from the keel.  Have we got Strong or what!!!

A Mighty Ariel to be sure.

But, the boat won't be complete without an oceangoing wine rack.

http://www.drycreekvineyard.com/nautical/wine_rack.html

How Do you find this stuff Cpete?

How about that rack...  a 4 bottle carbon fibre & teak rack for an 8 month voyage!  I guess the wine ain't  for quaffing.  In choosing yer luxuries, you should  also include an argon gas cylinder for topping off opened bottles to keep the wine from oxydizing.  They might consider freeze drying the wine to go with their alpine cuisine to save space - or putting a bladder in the bilge and recycling the glass to save weight!  I heard once that the sloshing of unbottled cabernet in a tanker's bilge accelerates the aging nicely!   Like a two week vovage and you get ten year old wine.

Can't afford the wine I like to drink,  but why shouldn't any Ariel consider making  ale like the great Chichester, wasn't it.?  I believe you once gave us some pix of the famous sloshed skipper and all on that!  But Not the recipe or a diagram of the gear!  Now There is some gear you might lash to yer mast for lack of a locker!!!

Sir Francis and his beer tap

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?s=&threadid=228&highlight=useful+project

Of course, Sir Francis also brought along a good selection of wine and liquor. He had to stop in Australia for more supplies and added the following.

Could have used a little rum.

Here it is

C'pete,  Thanks again for another shot of KBE Sir Francis!
Was going to comment after looking at the list of liguid stores that it was no wonder he had to have a 'self-leveling chair.'   But in quantity there's hardly enuf to get around the Horn!  There's a site kept by his son in honor of his courageous odds-beater dad.  Found it on the internet thru google.  Gives a chronology, back of the photos, that proves he was an amazing survivor.  He beat cancer eg to make his round the world run.  His map business has a site still.  He also wrote a whole bunch of books...you might say he was another crazy writer...but British.:rolleyes:

This weekend we got the Yamaha mounted on the clamp-board.  Moving the mounting position forward and the size of the unit means I have to take the arm off and place the controls in the well. [uhhh, the cockpit foot well] Didn't want to do that!

The center of the prop on this motor is 16" below the waterline!  Will have to consult with an expert on this situation.:confused:

Ebb,
How are you sealing and venting the propane locker from the rest of the boat ?

Capt Mike,
and anybody else,
have deleted these posts because IMCO the propane tanks CANNOT be put in a cockpit locker - there is no way to provide drainage for the locker on port tacks.  Regs say that the propane locker must always be free to drain.

[Can't leave this alone for 5 minutes.  Add this to the stew:
Ok, so we can live with the thru hull drain on the outside of the boat - BUT if you are tipped on the other tack the gas can puddle on the cockpit side.  What to do?  We can't lead a drain out any lower that the cockpit deck, right?  What would the regulators say???]

No way can a propane locker go in the cockpit on an Ariel.


[I will leave the above posts alone for the cognisenti and those who might enjoy seeing ebb writhe in mental anguish & embarrasemnt.  Tonight I'm going to edit the above posts as radically as allowed.]:o


LOOK,
Does anybody have anything to say on the subject?
What have others done about the propane situation?

A campstove with the 1# throwaways is certainly an option for non-live-aboards.   There's a gizmo you can get for refilling the cannisters - but you have to freeze them first!  How about that.  Not easy, but do-able for the weekender.

Had to bite the bullet and go to the unmentionable marine suypermarket to get some polysulfide.  $10 for a toothpaste sized tube.    But on display was as 10# aluminum propane bottle that had brackets welded on it for horizontal mounting. .........11" round, including the brackets,  and barely 16" long. ...........So I'm back to thinking about the cockpit locker again!!!
The problem would be how to mount them high up under the seat, create a glassed in 'false' bottom in the locker.    And figure out a double drain system  or a single drain from the center of the floor to lead out the hull.   Any comments?   Much appreciated!

Ebb,
Those aluminum bottles sound like a better banana-mouse trap.  If they were a few inches smaller in diameter  it would be easier to tuck them up under a C-pit seat and vent (I really like your idea there).  Have you thought about just biting the bullet and mounting a couple of bottles on the pushpit?  Easy, no plug venting readilly available now!
Hey, I'm still way back at the forward hatch-How did you get that footprint riser built up and what's underneath it on the inside.  Tony G

J. H. Chriminee!  those bottles...maybe the horiz alum Could go in the c'pit seat next to the bridge deck near where the cooker would go.  BUT, I'ld only assign them 2 that space to the right of the locker lid.  It's fairly useless space unless you're prone to stuffing the locker to the top.  So what is avalable as a ready made hatch?  NOTHING.  So you'ld have to saw out the lid, probably opening not only the top but down the side in front.......Can't face it at this point.

Besides, I don't think, even if you gained a few inches by mounting them high under thw seat that when you're tipped the locker could drain properly.  Too close to the waterline.  Bummer

Bottles in the pushpit, dressed in blue, be the very last resort.  I nearly decided to carry only trailmix on board and a swing-stove with 1# throwaways.  No kidding.


The foredeck surround for the hatch.  Made a 1/2" liner for the hole, deep enough to tuck the under deck backup strips against it.  Then I took the hatch bottom and carpet taped the bottom of it  (originally I peeled the tape and stuck on mylar, but the stuff already on the tape releases just as well.)  Laboriously wrapped the edge of the bottom, the Bomar is 1/4" high there and rounded too.   Clamp it to the liner.

Made up a batch of mishmash.  Put the chopped strand in early to get them good and soaked, then add the silica to stiff peaks.  Then scrub virgin epoxy into the cavity demolishing the brush.   Then use a paper rag towel to wipe any liquid out,  don't want the mm to sag.  Tuck the goop under the hatch, get it up in the top, you're going to have voids anyway.  Leave it rough but not all the way out to the edge, push the fibers in or blade them away.   It'll be hardening by now.  Mix up plain gel and blade it smooth against the first fill to a close right angle to the hatch.  I left it a bit under so that later I could come back with a color coat

Mark the holes, drill them oversize, NOT all the way thru, down to the trim under the deck.  Fill with epoxy, there was soak in so the levels fell.   Mildly scuff the top of the hardened base and wood and level and fill imperfections with gel.  This was the foredeck.  Replacement of the hatch in the coach roof was a bit different because of the radical curvature.  Gotta go, later!!

Ebb,
Hey on James Baldwin's site one would get the impression that those one pound bottles are what they use!
I think I understand what you wrote about the technique-I'll try it.  But it'll have to wait until next spring unless we get some really scarey weather here.  Thanks again Ebb  Tony G

Capt Tony,
But here's the rub.
Where do you store the canisters?

Some guy used 3" or 4" PVC pipe to stack them in like artillery shells and
festooned short lengths  on his stern rail with hose clamps.  Looked just like real west marine propane bottles in their blue sunbrella suits.  He recycled the empties.  That was cool.  Keeping the tube full kept them from rattling.

A cruiser might have twelve foot pieces of schedule 40 along the side decks lashed to the toerail.   Maybe you could toss them at pirates, one pound propane bombs,  by the time you got to micronesia they'ld be empty tho.  Where out there do you recycle micro propane bottles, anyway?

How about stowing them in the mast?  Nobody thought of That, I betcha!   You'ld have to send the mate up the mast every time you had an empty to put in.

Here are a couple of photos of Ebb's new rudder.  Design by Alberg.  Execution by Borregaard.

And on the inside . . .

Holy Moley, when was THAT?
All those zigzags didn't get translated to existing.

Top third over the bottom two thirds (in area.)
You can see a split in the doorskin, at a right angle to the keel.
It's that top third that comes apart.

The 1" shaft of the real one is split for about a foot in length.  Instead of two flat surfaces,  one side of the split is keyed about 1/4" X 1/4" proud.    Like the key in the groove of the tiller head.  Only it's milled in the shaft.  The mating half has a groove to receive it.  When you put them together it's round again.  Has three 1/4" thru holes for 1/4" bolts.

Basically,  the blade is halved more or less in conjunction with the split shaft.  The strap core at the trailing edge has some machine screws holding it together.

The bottom part is normal welded strap and foam.  The shaft is whole down here of course and the gudgeon will pass around the shaft here. near the top of this section.  It's about half way up the keel.     Naturally I had to fiddle here too.  In this case it is not a strap but a split casting that hugs the shaft.   It is to be bolted thru the keel in such a way that one side only will detach when unbolted. We'll see.

Generally,  the 1/8' strap is welded to the sides  of the shaft and ground back at an angle.  If you swung the rudder in its theoretical 30 to 35 degrees very little of the strap enters the channel of the keel.  But I'm talking thru my hat because 338 has a reworked keel/rudder interface.  The heads of the nuts and bolts will swing into the channel space - barely.  Also I knew I needed the option to wrap the shaft in glass.  The channel has an 1 1/2" radius.  Allowing 3/16" if needed around the 1" shaft for wrap.

not worth a whole lot.    But if you and I were having a few beers I would propose this.
I'ld scrap this clamshell idea because the glassing is so difficult.  If I could have 'seen' into the problem with the models I made,  I don't think I would have continued.  Once I was welding the rudder I was commited.

A take apart rudder is a good brain exercise.  Agreed?  If NO use yer curser to exit NOW.

Here, instead of clamshell, let's just cut it across like a loaf of bread.

I would simply make a top half that socketted into the lower half.  If you can imagine two straps (1/8" thick, 1 1/2" wide bar) coming off the sides of the shaft and meeting at the trailing edge,  you have a long narrow triangle.   Make this at the top of the bottom half.  It is hollow in there.

Make the mating part of the top half out of the same material but smaller so that it fit snug inside the long narrow hollow.   That's a lot of bearing surface.  You could have the shaft fit into a self socket also.     Might even be four sided,  male and female.   Maybe that's over kill.  Maybe the shaft could merely be cut there, conceptually.  Actually the rudder is two separate pieces.    

You'ld have a removable fairing piece on the boat or the top of the rudder that would allow the two pieces to be separated, by lifting the top part up.  The bottom half would be lifted out of the shoe, and the top would be slided out of the tube. Would the keying of the mating parts have to be any more than two inches deep?  Don't think so,   And the fiberglassing would be a breeze.  I would run it by a structural engineer.  Wish I'ld thought of this befor.   Beelieve I'll have another pint with my friend here, anybody got a pencil?

But, do you even need the continuous shaft at all?  Need the top for the tiller head,  need the shaft thru the rudder tube, need the connection down at the shoe.  What do you need the middle for?           [need something in the middle for the gudgeon strap keeper]

The original rudder, you need the full/split shaft.   But with epoxy and glass and welded flat bar the middle part of the shaft is useless extra weight!   The original did not have a continuous shaft.  An aperture in the rudder might present a minor design adjustment.

1" silicone rod goes for around $30 a foot.  Manganese rod is available.



If I had the time...............:D :D

so let me get this straight, your rudder is two halves (port and stbd) about the center line of the boat?  what is the split shaft for?  and how far up/down is it split?

by the way, i dig the shape.

" . . .by the way, i dig the shape.

See Alberg's lines drawing in the manual.  It's his!

Capt. Mrgnstrn,
Check out post above beginning 'Holy Moley.'  Can't make it any clearer without photos.

If the whole rudder had been in two halves,  then I guess the whole shaft would have been also,  so I went with what I thought was the shortest break in the shaft one could get away with.  One side has the small upper half section and the shaft portion what goes up the tube.  The other "half" is all the rest of the rudder, the major portion, all of it really except for the upper flap bit. OK?    Not yet, huh?    Me neither.

OK, I understand where the upper and lower halves of the rudder are separated.
I don't fully understand the shafting, but maybe a few pictures would help.
you used PVC foam for the diagonals, but have you determined if the the whole rudder bouyant or not?

muchas gracias...

foam is the filler in the clam shell, it isn't structural.  There's very little of it.   The rudder is rather narrow, right?   The rudder is as bouyant as a piece of lead, or bronze.   As I intimated above,  this is not a good design,   A good design is the original rudder.  The 6 or 7 feet of 1" bronze shaft-rod at about 3# a foot doesn't make the original a floater, either.     If the original rudder had been made totally out of wood, it would have been a floater.   I have not heard that a lite foamfilled neutral rudder, like those that stand alone behind a fin,  is desirable on the end of a keel.  Would like to hear a discussion on this!!!  

A rudder with two or three narrow triangles of flat bronze bar welded to the sides of the rod instead of allthread drilled thru the rod - the rest made up of divinycell, glass and epoxy would make a good substitute - come in at about the same weight - easier to maintain - ten times stronger - than the original.  IMCO.

A two part socketing rudder like the one above could be designed at the cost of more weight.  A full size working model out of wood would be made first.

Will make a valient attempt at finishing the present project.  I advise everyone against it.  Unless you make a compleat working model first!  If the fiberglassing is successful there hopefully will be some photos.

Have about 3 passes, so far,  of 407 in the hollows that go from stem nearly to the stern on 338   Has anybody faired their A/C to a batten?   Would really like to hear how you proceeded!   I can't be the only crazy around here?  Love that longboarding!:eek:

Sorry Ebb,
You're about eight months ahead of me in that department.  Are you going to apply a dark topside paint?  Is that why you're fairing the hull or is it just a personal obsession?:D   I know 113 could use a little (read alot) of longboard action before painting next summer....so once again, I'm relying on you for technique and direction.  Wish I could help but what I'm really saying, I guess, is keep up the good work.  Just remember Ebb, I'm behind you all the way!  Tony G

Capt T!   How goes the prog?  All kinds of fairing questions, probably some important not being asked.  Began getting cooler weekends - going up that ladder all this time - sighting the hollows on the way to another project - had to do it - facing another seasonal slog thru wind and rain.

Some guys on the net talk about osmotic gelcoat blister repair or hydrodynamic maximum lift foil section fairing,  but there is no blow by blow on this hickey problem we have.

I got a six foot piece of 1/8" x 1 1/2" aluminum from the hardwear.  It has a smooth sexy feel to it.  I had tried the aerosol primer technique, putting on a mst of color and then long boarding.  Was effective - and depressing to see the huge dark puddles left.   I felt uncomfortable with the foreign substance on the gel coat.     It would be useful later in the topsides game.  

338 had some dramatic filling to do, some places the bottom of the swale under the batten pressed  on the hull seemed 1/4" deep!   The flexible bar is laid against the hull and encouraged into the mildest arc by bending the top toward the toerail.  You can't bend the batten around the bilge without putting a kink in it.  One time I read a guy explaining how he used monofiliment to locate the dips -  you can get the whole side - but you can't fiddle, or fondle, that extra fullness that brings relief to a tired brain and a weary eye.   Don't think it's only a male thing.

We had longboarded the topsides twice befor, so they were well scratched.  A few hilltops had begun to show some green thru the white.  And we were beginning to be well versed in the long diagonal strokes needed for any fairing.

Every 5 or 6 inches along the hull, holding the batten at the seam and below at the turn in the hull, made a vertical pencil line representing the supposed hollow you could see under the batten.  Connecting the ends of these lines together outlined the hollows into 'puddles.'   Prime the puddle with virgin epoxy.  Wipe as much off again with terry rags befor gooping.

407 I hear is a patented mix,  Tried to make up fairng compound myself from microballoons and silica.  Even at a stiff 50 to 50 mix I still got serious sag.  And it was a b@!*^%d to sand.  So I snuck into WM and shelled out $2 an ounce for 407, mixed it into a stiff as I dared brownie dough, and spread it on.  Two 15 oz (!) containers $62.

Wouldn't you know,  West Systems 407 sags TOO.   You hafta mix in 404,  says a wag.   But that's silica, says I  (whatever the damn number is!)   And I KNOW that stuff is a bear to sand and impossible to fair.
So, I draw a piece of sheet metal bent improvisationally into a very approximate arc across the goop. collect it on the spatula and reapply it to the skips, and keep drawing the metal across the puddle.  But the more you work the stuff (you ARE pressing it against the hull, which is a good thing) the more you bring liquid to the surface.

And it sags continuously until it gets hard.  Must be what the patent was for.   But it IS easy to sand.   It's shiney too.   After sanding, the low areas are untouched and dark while the rest has 'greyed' out. Where you did a single swipe and it's thin it stays dull and no sag.  Lesson # 1:  do not put it on thick on vertical surfaces.  We haven't much, and the sag you learn to control by not trying to fill all at once.  The 407 under the 36 grit longboarding doesn't produce dust, it's a kind of grit.   But it has a static stickyness to it, likes to cling.    

Ahhh!  but the topsides, even in this 36 grit stage are beginning to look S O O O O sweet!

One nagging question.    Is that this relatively soft stuff is going on to a very hard surface.   That's the question.     Now, we will sand this stuff back as far as we can.  Maybe even flatter than Alberg's rounded curves you can see on the lines drawings, maybe.  Once it is where it is going to be it can be hardened up with plain epoxy with a little silica, maybe?   That's a question.  I'ld say that nearly half of the topside surface is chocolate colored at the present time.   That's a question.

[After experimenting:  407 can be made up extra stiff, non sag,  and pressed on the surface, but maybe not with the comfort of being sure of a bond that a wetter mix will have.   Sanding 407 does produce dust - not airbourn dust.  The tarmat under the boat is pink with the stuff.]

Ebb,
I used the El'cheapo fairing compound this time around when I filled in the forward ports.  At first I thought I made a BIG mistake because it remained somewhat 'soft' for a day or two.  While I was pouting about my blunder, kickin' cans and such the stuff turned solid.  So I guess one has to sand it in that time frame when it's not too soft and not too hard.  But I was happy as heck to toil a few extra hours with the homemade long board when I found it hard and realized I wouldn't have to resort to digging it out with solvents and a putty knife.  I think it took four or five build-ups to get to a 'feel' that I was satisfied with.  Yah, it has to go on thin(a big thanks to my dad for 'letting' me work in his bodyshop when I was in highschool-and to think I thought all of that other stuff was more important).
Those Gougeon brothers got most of my income a few years ago.  Don't get the impression I don't like their product.  I liked it alot, learned from it alot, had alot of fun with it too.  Didn't know there was so much one could do with epoxy!  Not just boats.  But I think it was YOU in one of your previous post regarding 'poxies that convinced me to try one of the less famous labels.  Glad I did-saved a bunch of money.
Like the hickey analogy, helps keep the eroticism up when she's all torn apart.  That's next year for me now.  Too cold here allready.  I just cleaned her up really good for winter and will go into pattern making and alternative layout scheming.   Oh yeah-account fattening too.  Tony G
p.s. lookee here what you've done:eek:

looks real nice.   Whose stainless hatches are they?  With that wide frame they look Belgian or something.   From your top view, hard to tell, but they look closer to the deck than the Bomars I chose.

That foredeck hatch looks a size smaller than the one in front of the mast.  What's your plan?  Mine is where the anchor selection and a half mile of chain will rust.

Glad you found other epoxy sources,  especially for the health reasons I once groused about.  You know I don't have Absolute proof of the contaminated epoxy thing,  but nobody has come forward on that to counter it, so the silence is my 'proof.'

I'm absolutely certain (Assume Is The Mother of All Foulups) that my mailorder  supplier can provide an epoxy I can use in 338's builtin sweet water tanks.  NOT West System.

And I'm taking a lot on faith and other worker's experiences using their 407 product.  That's why I've been so explicit.   Around the yard nobody has said anything negative - but the caveat is:    Do not use 410 (the tan filler) under a dark painted hull.  Not sure what happens,  but I assume the paint lifts off.

So this really is a sucker punch to me.  Why would you sell something to a bunch of amatuers  (professionals aren't going to pay 7/11 prices for cute little boxes)  that you can't use in conjunction with the goddam "System"???  You maybe Need the lighter stuff to finish off the fairing with big number grits.   Right?

Even if I planned a white hull,  would I use something that's going to maybe peel off a thousand hours flawless shine?  If the hull gets too hot?

So I'm always going to sweat the 407!  And I'm going to have to find a finishing off compound from somewhere else (since I can't trust my own formulations!)    I remember Smith & Co used to have very light white two-part fairing compounds.  Gotta check it out.  :mad:

I forgot all about the water tank issues!  That was something I was going to keep an eye on and check into.  The mind is a terrible thin to waste.  Those hatches are Bomar.  One is 16.5 square and the other 13.25 square.  Thought they might brighten the place up a bit and move some air through.  They are 'seconds' we snagged from Pompanette LLC.  Miniscule cast flaws on the spigot that won't show and won't cause problems sealing.  Just reaping the benefits of a wasteful society(saved about a case of Glen Livet)or...er...so.  But I've sworn to give up my vices for a better boat :( .  Wish we had a yard near here to reap the benefit of experience.  Ten minutes of conversation can reveal a whole lot more than ten minutes of reading!  That sounds bad-strike that note   Tony G

Captain T,  Up above here - dunknow what ElCheapo you used,  but we do know it was epoxy.  I dunknow what epoxy is cheap??  Some paint store type places have two-part epoxy filler in jars,  some have a couple nougat bars you cut and mix.  Smith&Co make a rot repair kit that has a white filler,  none of it is cheap!   But depending on the temperature some of these fillers can take a week to harden up.

I just happened to stop by Smith&Co, the plant,  where they retail too.
They have a one gallon kit (1/2 and 1/2) for $125 (!) of their Fill-It,  which they put in their rot repair kits.    But the stuff was originally,  and I think it still is,  the only ready-made filler in the market,  the microbaloons and cabosil and whatever are mixed in already into the two parts.  One has some color in it so you know when it's blended.  It has a 3 hr pot life at 70 degrees,  16 hrs at 28 degrees.  Hey, you minisotans can work clear thru the winter!!!   That is if you are filling.

That's the rub.  I don't think this will tool any better tham 407.   But IMCO it ends up about as hard as the topsides.   IT DOES NOT SAG.   Steve Smith has a product here,  but I don't know if It has yet caught on.  I bought a sample to try, $20!   I've used the filler for years, just not in this application

I just don't know why certain products become fashionable, like westsystem,  others take forever to catch on.  I overheard this young athletic sailer, who I've never seen with as much as a scraper in his mit, trying to impress an attractive gal who Was scraping her bottom - he was saying that westsystem was the only good stuff  and don't get the junk local stuff from TAP.  You know,  the stuff I've been working with  succesfully for a couple years.

I'll mix up a wad of the Fill-It, try it in a low spot, and report back, Tony.
Not advertised as a fairing filler but will sand to a feather edge.   They did make a 'glazing' filler once that had the consistency of coolwhip,  I think it had too many lethal solvents in it.  Remember it smelled Strong.  Smith&Co have a Hazardous Non Waranty Can't Be Made Safe label on they products.

You know...
If you do not have a huge amount of fairing to do, and are only looking to fill a localized area, you can use Z-spar Splash Zone. Don't use it on anything you aren't going to paint, as the water drippage is a permanent splashzone-colored stain. Does not cake-frost with a spreader lika fairing compound...you sort of squidge it in with wet fingers. Boat Building with play-doh. It does have considerable durability, and it is very sculptable, which can come in handy. also shapes, files, sands very nicely.

Not exactly the stuff for getting rid of little ripples, but there are some times and places that it really is trick stuff.

Dave

Capt Dave,
Looks like I'll have to put on a hat to sneek into westwhatever and take a look at this wonderous dough.  Didn't get what you meant about the splash zone and the stain.  So what is it, a sandable watermix fixall?  It is the minor filling stuff that sands to dust but fills every imperfection - that I'm looking for.

Recall a large tube of one part 3M made years ago.  It sanded absolutely S m o o o t h.

My problem with paint fillers is that I think they are too soft to put on the topsides.  I mean the hull sides.  It's a hard life out there

For SplashZone, you probably need to go to the fishboat chandelry...I don't think it's "yachty" enough for Westwhatever.

SplashZone is a two-can, two-part, strongly foul smelling underwater cure epoxy product. Industrial Marine-Tex, as it were. Have to mix the two parts (black and bile green) together in roughly equal amounts as needed ---and you have to keep the lump wet! Hands, too! Turns more-or-less OD Green when you have it mixed right. Really good for sculpting and so on like you had to do around your cockpit drain pipes.

Since it has to be wet, it dribbles this OD green juice everywhere...that does a dandy job of permanently staining any porous surface...like paint or gelcoat. It is tough stuff. Not sure it's going to do what you just clarified, though...it IS really handy for a lot of other uses, you ought to give it a try. Thick, tough putty in whatever quantity you feel like mixing...pretty neat.

Being ever the low-tech, non-esoteric cheapskate that I am I have found pretty good success at hull fairing with epoxy resin and balloons(for sandability) with 1/4" milled glass fiber added for strength...to my experience, it sands a lot better than if you put silica in it, and I haven't had any crack or fall off anything I've put it on over the course of quite a few jobs and about a 15 year span. I did it out of frustration once because the silica-filled stuff...well, you know...I was ending up with silica-filled humps surrounded by low spots. I really like to use a DA for that kind of work anymore if there is air to be had, though...cuts faster than an electric RO and has a lot more control...and I am a big fan (itchiness aside) of mill fiber for "structural" fillers, mainly because it's cheap and tough. While I'm sure there is a better mousetrap made, I tend to go with the more-or-less "old school" goods an awful lot as long as I know they do the job adequately...saves a lot of $$$. I'm preaching to the choir...I better just shut up and let ya sing!

Dave

Both of you two have mentioned adding chopped glass fibers(Ebb) and milled glass fibers(Dave) to the mix.  Is this a prepackaged product or home made?  I did purchase some milled glass fiber from a supplier.  It is HEAVY, dense, grainy, and causes lots of sagging.  It makes a good dense plug but it is useless on anything but a horizontal surface.  Most curious, Tony G

Thanks Capt Dave,
points well taken,  that splashzone sounds fasinatin!   Like something to use on iron plate fishing boats and ferrocement.   Smith&Co's Fill-It is really aimed at ruogh service too.   Smiths's first love, if it can be put like this,  was for ferrocement, when they were hot,   he came up with CPES (clear penetrating epoxy) as a sealer.  Then the woodworkers and home repair guys discovered it.   (But never  came up with real finesse products like for finishing off the topsides IMCO)

I got epoxy back in the days befor it was for 'public sale' - getting it in containers with codes for labels - and played around with it like it was playdough - and became badly sensitized to it where it attacked the fingers around the nails.  Didn't heal for weeks.  Don't know that I would stick my fingers in that evil sounding stuff you talk about!!!

I swear latex gloves you get at the plastics supply or hardwear are 2nds or thirds or rejects from the medical suppliers.  Gloves will have holes in them or pull apart when pulling them on.  They're for dexterity not dipping!


I get milled glass in plastic jars from the local plastics fabrication store.  It's heavy glass dust.  And when I added it to the mix it near tore itself off the vertical surface!  Add that stuff and you loose sandability,  it's for plastic rock.   I don't use it much.   Jars of 'chopped strand' I get are 1/4".  I've heard it comes shorter or longer.  That and silica is the mish-mash I make up.  Use it structurally.  It's hairy.  If a surface is exposed and need it smooth I press mylar or visqueen against it.  I think (I hope!) it is pretty strong stuff!   I believe I would use this for molded in backup pads for fittings.  I built up the inside of the stem with it,  especially around the cutwater,  Crazy, huh?

But since this fairing thing has happened here in this far off corner of this site...
I'll just add this:
407 after 3 weeks gets mighty hard.   I am using a high grade marine 100% solids low vis laminating epoxy,  it is relatively easy to knock down compared to the gelcoat.  So you can sand smooth curves.    You could get to the high-build primer stage with this, since it does feather,  but it's hard to control.
Interlux makes a two part finishing off epoxy called VC that I will locate.
WM has Awlgrip fairing epoxy that can be used exsystem I believe.

I got page 144 out of the Manual blown up again.   This time,  the stations,  the bread slices.   When it's bigger you can site the lines or lay a straight edge against them.
There are NO straight lines in the hull except the flats in the keel,  and they are curved fore and aft.

The bow was/is very hollow.  The part of the bow forward of the little bulkhead.  A large triangular area is five fillings by now.   The hull  at the bulkhead around this area is convex and pretty fair.   Aft of the imprint hollows probably caused by the stringer begin.  They are fairly fair after three full passes.   The bow is hollow, on the port side especially, well under the waterline.  It is almost as if the natural hollow of the keel and rise of the bilge extended right up to the stem fitting!

It looks like the only true convex lines on the topsides are those where there are bulkheads inside.:(

Page 144.   Floating above the grid line of Station #5 are a couple of very interesting doodles.  One might show some wood trim that is obviously too small, almost flimsey.   Actually, it's funny.

The other illustrates an out-turned flange in the hull/deck with some kind of split tube material covering the join.   (TOP OF HULL is printed under the drawing.)

Howboutthat!

Hey, I was just there last week.  Wonder what happened to door number three-the one that got picked for the Ariel/Commander?  I may be wrong here but one of those profiles looks identicle to the Ensign h/d joint and the other one looks suspect to many Bristol pictures I've seen.  Having never actually touched a B-27...how about a CD D-25?

Well Ebb, it's cold and snowing outside.  Yuk.  Boatwise it's time to turn to paper and thought for some of us.  Okay.  What's happening with 338?  Is the cabin sole out yet and the new tankage in?  How about the MSD.  Eeewee.  Airhead-Lavac-Willcox-Crittendon?  Don't think we've nailed you down on that one yet.

Capt Tonio,
When the weather changed,  surprised and embarrassed once more at how blinding fast the seasons pass on by,  had this Urge, man - you have no idea - to work on the topsides,  befor the bloddy tent got blown apart again.

Eyeball to gelcoat,  I've covered 1/2 the sides in microsphere brownie mix.   Done the batten thing,  made the vertical pencil lines, traced the puddles therein to fill.   Measured and mixed.   Filled and waited,  longboarded endlessly and did it again.

Coming  close to something like fair curves.   Have a 3 foot board now made from closet pole, 1/4" lexan, carpet tape and a great anti-static 36 grit 3" wide sanding belt.   Awesome stuff.

Missed this weekend in the cycle because the chocolate didn't bake in the 30 - 50 degree temp.   Put it on late and it didn't set in the freezing overnight.   Got up to 60 today and it attempted to harden,  but didn't.

The topsides is a major project.   The whole boat between the imprinted bulkheads fore and aft,  and the imprinted stringers up to the rail has to be faired.   My fairing is essentially a valiant attempt to plump the sides out to only vaguely  what the Master's lines are in the Manual.   When I laid the fairing batten horizontally on the hull,  a new set of hollows showed up.   While either side of the boat have not equal unfairness, both had a double dipper, requiring extra fill, just forward of the compression bulkhead in that difficult area where the flare of the bow is changing into the vertical sides at mid section.  It is hard to read the transition with the eye, so much is happening.

Remember Geoff had that weird dip in Uhuru's hind quarter?   No dip in 338's - but her tight little curved port quarter had a hollow 1/4" deep,  while the starboard side is pretty much ok.

Airhead,  I haven't persued.   It would be really cool to have a working composting toilet aboard.   They did say that they were working on designing a shorter model.   And eventually 338 will have one.   Tho it's hard not to be persuaded by Jim Baldwin's enthusiasm for the Lavac in his Triton.   We are a flush it down the drain society,  at all levels,  I'm glad we have the humble portopotti as an alternative.

As you know I've been trying to find a contrasting color and more cremey epoxy paste to continue with the next step,  something to fill scratches etc.   WasteMarine had SplashZone and some one parts -  nope.   I wanted to check out Svensons again.  So, went way the hell over to Alameda.   What a great place the store is,  what a relief!   Didn't smell of plastic fenders,  wasn't a chandlery morphing into a OSH.
They had Interfil by Interlux in a 1/2gal kit for $60.   Read the cans,  looked like it's ok.    Take to boat, cut the cans apart,  read inclosed miniature pamphlet.   Way at the end,  on the last page, it says:
   Must be washed with water after each use.

(Expletive)  (Delete)  If Interfux thinks I'm ever using a single product of theirs on 338 they're crazy.   I feel Insulted.   What kind of jerks market a filler that has to be washed befor you put the next layer on - and even befor you sand it???   You guys really put up with disrespect like this?   You and I know they could make the better product

and still overprice it.

Ebb,
Another product like that, that needs washing , is called WEST system. You must remove the blush or problems later down the road will appear.

Yeah,
West System is up front about it.   Sort of.
What got me was that  Interpox had it sealed between two cans and inside a small print pamphlet.   like it was dirty.
W h a t ?    
Like they were embarrassed or something?   Wouldn't it be part of the general directions ON the can?   Because They know that some of us know that they are using additives like nonyl phenol which is a cheap carcinogenic extender to adulterate their product.

Now, Aye don't know what Intersucs has in this 2 part paste.  I have not checked out the MSDS.    I'm assuming tho that like System 3 MAS RAKA and West they no longer list nonyl phenol as a hazardous material on their MSDS.  Wouldn't you like to know who let That happen?

It is a non volitile carcinogenic additive that increases volume and decreases epoxy's good points like strength, and  chemical,  temperature and water resistence.   While there are epoxies with the stuff that don't blush, all the rest of the adulerated  have nonyl phenol at least partially to blame for blushing.

Blush is a greasy film that you cannot trust to another layer without agressive scrubbing.   Why trust it after the scrubbing?   You got a degree in goddam scrubbing?   The window for applying overcoats without the cleaning is very small as it can be done only when it is setting but not cured.   This represents a huge amount of time and labor to ready the surface for recoat.  In the actual 3D real 26' Ariel boat world why use it?   My cod, if I had to scrub down the topsides we are fairing befor each  layer I'd truly be nuts be now.  How can anybody conceive of a filler that you had to do this to?   Corporate sleeze fueled by greed.   Maybe worse.

If Interbucs (and the rest of the crew) really cared about your needs they would not sell you junked up epoxies.   A boat, or anything your life depends on, requires the best.   If these jerks are not selling you the best,  or hiding from you the questionable quality of their product,  DO NOT TRUST THEM.

For a few bucks more they could do it right, and sell to you a superior product.   And EARN your trust.

The head Intercluck gave himself a 9 billion dollar bonus this year fror being so clever in cheapening his product.   This is probably a lie.   Probably only 8.

Anybody else want the soapbox?     ;)

Some how Ebb, I get the feeling you don't support the current administration's policy " don't let 'em ask, and we won't tell 'em what's in it  .
If it's good for business, especially my friends in Texas, then its good for me , er ah the world. "

Personally I have pretty much had it with buying Marine grade products in general, especially where paint and epoxy are concerned...largely thanks to Ebb's advice pertaining to //www.epoxyproducts.com . I've also been fortunate enough to cultivate a good working relationship with a local commercial-only vendor who sell to boatbuilding firms which has allowed me to get pretty much anything in industrial, marine or aircraft resin and core products at a super super deal.

When I use up the last of my last 5-gallon pail of S-3, I'm gonna have a party since it means I don't have to have 2 sets of hardeners...just Jeffco aircraft resin, barrier coats, etc. etc. etc., and ONE set of hardener products does all of the resins. Not blushy. Not stinky. Real consistent.

I love you, Ebb...
Dave

...blush

Quit huffing the fool fumes, Ebb!!
We were just talkin' 'bout no-blush stuff here!
Man!:D

Luv you too, Dave!

Tony,  Dave,  Bill,  et al!   Must be forgiven for not responding,   Have just seen a list for the first time of yer unanswered posts by inadvertently pushing one of those bars I can hardly read at the top of the page here.   Ebb is Not computer savvy and will never figure  out all the features one can use on this site.   Sorry.

I've been on the shoals for a couple of months - the cold weather not helping either - with the epoxy.

The original forehatch has the framework in for the new Bomar.  It had to be completely sawn out.   The interior mahogany trim  against the curvey roof went in pretty good,  but not varnished yet.   The exterior needs to be completed.   I haven't enuf other stuff done for the Boss to record.

Have begun to work on the OB well again.  The cockpit now is open all the way to the transom.  Cut sides of the old vertical access hatch back to the cockpit well.   The built in tanks continue the eye to the transom.   Whether the hatch will be extended forward to cover the OB I don't know yet.  But convinced self that the hatch should be in three pieces with the center piece, being the width of the cockpit well only,  remade so as to cover the OB.   You may remember the OB clamp board is moved forward about 4"".  The two much smaller side pieces can remain shut most of the time.    Conceivably there will be standing room on the quarters of the stern with the OB hatch open.   How about that?

Like it,  because I think only Professor Alberg had these giant rear hatch covers (to be able to lay in the old kicker)  and this preserves the look.

The side windows are being Baldwined.  Got the 3/8s Lexan.  And have some ideas to share soon on how to install stiff 3/8s plastic in  1/2" wide channels that are curved.      

:eek:

ebb- I don't think I ever saw your final disposition of your rudder.  how did it come out in the end?  what would you change about your current design?  somewhere in here you said that you wouldn't have done it that way if you knew what you know now.  do you still think that?  what would you suggest?

km.
I don't think I saw the disposition of that rudder either!  

But it's coming soon.
It's all fine and dandy to experiment.   I'm not really 100% behind this clamshell rudder - which won't make any sense, I know, until it's together, so that photos can be taken, and comments made.   I did make a full size model in wood but didn't carry it forward into the glassing stage where problems have developed.  [and there have been dozens of other projects on the boat to keep the plate-spinner busy]

Did have another idea to spite myself which I now think is more viable.   I think it can be engineered much more simply.  You have a rudder that is simply cut in half across the blade with one piece socketting into the other.   Each piece is made complete and independent of the other.   One would slip into the other and simply fastened.   I leave the design work  to you,  professor!   Probably not that simple!

If I did not have a full time commitment,  I'ld love to do it,  really!   See if there  is any easy way to remove and replace these keel hung rudders without a third party.

Perhaps only a cruiser is  interested in a maintainable rudder.   Damage to a rudder that can not be removed for repair wherever you are IMCO is dangerous.    Not hard to imagine an intense scenario where the hole you have to dig to slip the original rudder out the tube just keeps filling as you dig.  

The clamshell rudder (soon to be photoed) uses too many small fastenings (5 bolts) to keep it secure.   I'm not happy with small fastenings under water.   Glad you're interested!    :D

FWIW, I had originally worked out a design in a foam-cored rudder mainly for ease of workability and for fear of having so much bronze in the water to get eaten. Two things stopped that, which was finding out how bad an idea the carbon fiber near/touching bronze would be and also finding about the effect of buoyancy and weight vs. what we percieve as  part of the weather helm issue, i.e. a heavy rudder as the boat heels.

New plan is shockingly like sage Ebbster's bronze sheet idea, welded up with bronze sheet stringers inside to hold the shape and improve the tie-in to the shaft, then glassed and sheathed in kevlar and faired. This is actually much simpler than the previous plan and even simpler than constructing of plywood...the only difficult part is finding a reliable welder who is familiar with TIG welding on bronze! The form of the thing is an easy one, just a 2:1 taper...NACA foils do not belong on this type of rudder and are apparently counterproductive.

The rudder is to be counterweighted internally as well in order to try for the most neutral average helm feel possible.

I think...at long last...we are finally ready to build the pair of them.
One mod is the one-piece rudder shaft (almost 7' long!), and the Ariel type rudder shoe and support strap (straps, in my case, we're using two in the same locations as the recesses lie for the gudgeons). Here's hoping!

Dave

Good layups on your rudders,  Dave.

I was appalled at the weight of the clam shell!   If I didn't have so much time and money into it I would do a second one.   After 338 is sailing  we shall be very critical.   Is it not obvious:

The rudder knows only that it sits in the shoe 3/4"  and is 3/4" diameter there.   The rudder knows that halfway up the keel the shaft is, let's say, half round where the gudgeon strap is located.   It knows it is 1" D, with a key way,  at the tiller head.

Everywhere else in its 7 feet  the rudder can be anything it wants.   As long as it stays within the design parameters.   Some great modern materials and methods open up some exciting possibilities.

There are a number of successful rudder rebuilds. remakes, remodels, refits recorded here.   To be better than the simple and direct original the innovative rudder has to be something else.   Well. different, anyway.   The take apart idea keeps the synapses sinning and snapping in the internal cafe at the edge of the univers.  

Season's changing,  it's epoxy time again.

Ebb:  Where did you get that hinged mast step?

//www.sfsailing.com/ballengerspars/

Ballenger Spar Systems
215 Walker St
Watsonville CA95076

831-763-1196

email
buzzballenger@worldnet.att.net

Was $200 - off the shelf.

And I may have mistakenly described this s.s. hinge step as having the upturned holed part of the hinge  on the bottom,  when, ofcourse,  the blocks attached to the plate move with the mast when lowered or raised.   The plate with the upturned sides is on the top.   The plates are 1/4".  The pin is 1/2"!!!

First,  the good news,
The frames and ports came back from the powder coaters so beautiful it's hard to believe.   They were baked with a standard  bronze polyester that looks really fine to me.   It's a luxurious softness that identifies a pc   The LabMetal repairs aren't noticable.  and all the pieces of the opening ports fit back together,  except in one case.  Fixable, a little sanding...   Considerable hole in wallet.

The bad news,
My clam shell rudder can not be used.  Got to the point with it filled with pvc foam and extended to its final dimensions,  but not glassed,  where  the planes of the blade could be eyeballed real good in relation to the shaft.   Walked away.  Came back.  Number of times.....   Twisted too far out and  not fixable by grinding it to square.   Too late for tweeking the bronze.   It had been damaged and bent in a storm,  where the tent was torn apart,  and one of the pipes supporting the tent had swung around under the hull and bashed it.  (Was there a message there?)   Thought we had it straightened!    

Yesterday, had a brief unsuccessful conference with the luxury welder about a simplified version of a take-apart,  for which I had a rudimentary model.     I may now go with a regular single piece all-american constellation style - just to have a rudder.   I'll make up two models.   In respect to  'engineering:' the constellation probably has more forces on the blade/shaft connections than the more common rounded ear-shaped rudder.   Just think,  you are turning the whole boat against all that resistance with that bitty blade that has equal forces aqainst it.   Still looking at welding pieces to an Everdur  (655) shaft, foam filling and skinning with glass.   Pretty bummed out,  but I ended up not really liking the damned thing anyway.   Much because it didn't pass the KISS test.  

Back to the drawing board,  and doorskin models,  like me and 338 have all the time in the world..........

Here are photos of Ebb's newly powder coated window frames.

And the nice job he did filling the gap between the outer bulkhead the the cabin liner.

It's been awhile, but we have more Ebb Photos to share.  Ebb's been pretty busy, but with things that do not show that much.  For instance, he's managed to bring the boat's hull into compliance with Alberg's lines drawing.  No more low or flat areas, but the true (and beautiful) hull shape as planned.  

Another of Ebb's time consuming projects has been modifying the outboard motor well and lazarette to accommodate an 8-hp Yamaha 4-cycle engine.  The redesign is more than impressive, it's phenomenal.  Not only will the engine tilt up out of the water to it's fullest extent, but it will swivel to its maximum from side to side in the redesigned well.  The engineering and planning for this project is on the scale of a massive Department of Defense project!  Only photos can describe it.

We will begin with the hull fairing:

The next series of photos will attempt to describe the outboard motor well modifications.  When the photo shoot date was established, Ebb took some vacation time to clean up and paint the well so it would photo better ;)

Let's start with a vew from the stern with the engine in the run position.

Now we show the up position.  In this photo we see Ebb's new plug for the well opening.  (The engine has electric tilt, but it was not working so a rope was used to hoist the shaft.)

From above.  Note the two fuel tanks on each side.

The tolerances are very close between the engine mounting bracket and the well opening.

Here is a hand held view of the custom plug.

And, another view of the plug - hand held.

Note the new supports in the modified lazarette:

Ops, another view of the plug in place from above.

New bulkhead in the bilge.

Here's a f/u on some earlier photos of the new forward hatches.  #338 now has two (2). :eek:

The really cool part is the view of the hatches from below showing the custom trim.

And the other one . . .

It's not possible for me to remember everything Ebb said about these projects.   In fact, I probably did not understand what he was talking about :confused:  

I do know that he's found a very inexpensive epoxy product from a reputable mfg.  $50/gal.  If interested, send him an E-mail.  (Go to Ebb's profile and click on "send Ebb an E-mail.")  If you know the password, I'm sure he will share.  :D

Gentlemen,
the epoxy product is a two-part high-build sanding primer at $45 a gallon from an independant chandlery.    Everybody uses it  in the yard here,   the DIYers after they talk with the pros - who can't afford failures.   It is supplied in half filled gallon containers, as a one to one mix.  Each part requires stirring befor mixing.   Because of the half empty cans it is convenient to mix and pour into the premeasured mixing container.

A high build sanding primer does not have to be part of a LPU system like Awlgrip or Sterling.   You can put it on,   prep at your 'leisure',  and then put on the requisite regular system primer when you're going to paint within the time constrictions of the film.

I know Dave and Mike have worked with this stuff.   The chandlery stocks it for the workers.    In fact the c.  has a truck that makes daily deliveries all over the Bay area to marinas and job sites.   This kind of personal service the Royal Rip Off Chain can't duplicate.   The paint company what makes it does not seem to promote the product in any way,   maybe to avoid stepping on the toes of USPaint and Sterling etc. who flog it at twice the price.   The white stuff you see in the OB well pics of Billl's is this primer.   It also comes in "champagne" in case you need a color to sand down to.   Like most epoxys it gets harder over time.   I've probably passed the easy sanding window in the well.   Oh,  well!   email and I'll give up the product name and number.

This way  I hope I am honoring the 'underground' informational nature of this primer.   I would hope that  you guys do the same, leaving it word of mouth,  and not broadcasting it here on the net.   It probably is just me inventing the secret status of this paint.   I can here Dave saying,  "Hell, man, EVERYBODY knows this stuff, bin using it myself for twennyfive years or so!   Primed a dulcimer once with it!"

I've seen this used for topsides only.   I think it is best sprayed on.  (haven't done it myself, yet) because it goes on very even and smooth that way.   Afterall,  the hi-build is put on to fill pin holes and minor imperfections in all that hard work of fairing.   My brush marks in the ob well are there now exactly as I put them on wet.
If you need a high build hull primer  as a barrier coat,   people around here use Interbucks 2000.

A yard is full of toxins.  The high end LPU gloss man here does not prewash hulls with solvents,   as specified by most systems specs I've seen,   uses only soap (detergent like for dishes) and water.

Ebb!  She looks fantastic.  The work is nothing short phenomenal, and that's what we really expect from you now.  The outboard well looks smooooth and fine.  I'd be happy to clean grunge there.  Yeah, the trim on the hatches is the only way to do it.  Right and right on.  It really is a pleasure to watch the refit of 338.  
I'm still waiting for you to show up in good ol' Minnesota:p

Thanks, Tony!
And howz the Dream Weaver coming along?   I seem to rip-van-winkle these days waking up to old news:   you have to be brewing hot cocoa for the crew in the new galley by now on those frosty summer mornings up at the Lake.   Right?:cool:

Genius


...

geewillikers C'pete!
an autographed pic of Al hisself at the helm - fabulous!

This reminds me of an incident which occured sometime in yhe early '70's.   Must have gone up to the University for a lecture of Bucky Fuller's when I was living in Berkeley.   Sat up close,  but my distinct impression was that I was sitting in the back row of the auditorium - I don't think I got anything he synergized.   But I was inspired.

I had made a balsa dish using geodesic triangles for 'framing' and added  three triangular section pontoons to the convex side of the model and of course a dowel mast and bedsheet sails.   Took it down to the pond by the freeway to give it a test.   It was probably 18" round  (ie a scale model of a 36 footer) and elongated by the pontoons,   It immediately got blown flat.   Introduced a couple of bricks that just happened to be right there by the shore  into the middle (I think I had some kind of deck on it, you know, that held the mast up and all and a rudder.)   With cargo in the hold it took off like a bat out of hell across the water to the opposite shore in about 5 seconds.  

I was elated and somehow wrote a letter to the great man.   Who very kindly wrote back  (can't imagine the volumn of mail he  ordinaryly must have received!)  including a picture of his sailboat.   I've misfilled it,   but remember it was one of those headlong international racers of the time,  or maybe earlier,   made of wood with enormous sails.   That was the extent of my involvement with a homegrown genius.   Nothing ever came of the geodesic sailboat.   Gave it to a kid.   Bucky seemed more interested in his day sailer,  and I went on to mess around with a wooden plumb-bowed gaff rig retro design from the turn of the century.   Almost set fire to the boat  learning about polyester.  10 beers befor I retell That story.

I realize that only the most curious will want to cross ref back to the photos,  but here goes:

1st photo -
OB in operating position.   The width of the well is the exact turning radius of the shaft,  plus a little extra aft clearamce for removing the motor from the lazarette.

2nd -  
Shows the clamp of the Yamaha 8/4 with the power tilt arm as it is situated behind the dam which provides the form for the plug.   The plug can be used only when the motor is up.   And when the motor is removed.    No plug is in this view.

3rd -
The motor is up,  the plug is in place.   This cockpit view shows that the plug has an integral lid that conforms to the curve of the dam,  fits flat to the ledge that defines the shape of the opening and fits snug in the apparent square of this mid part of the well.

4th -
Shows the clamping board and the OB clamp behind the curve of the opening.   There will be a drain or two in this dammed up area,   but needs a oneway scupper not found yet.
The initial curve between the clamp and the shaft was determined with paper pattern,  then translated into frp about 1/8' thick over a little form.
The actual hole shape with its sloping sides was a little more dicey.   Was made using special bending ply that required happy luck with the fitting and some release tape inside and the usual build up with mat and juice.   Even tho it gets thin in the middle,  it is very strong.

 5 & 6 -
The shield shape of the plug is the outside surface of the boat.   It was made using the hole formed above as the mold,  with a piece of aquaply covered with mat added later in the process as the lid.   The shape again was molded with xmat and filled with pieces of pvc foam.

( Discovered that the lovely crease that extends up to the transom from the top of the rudder  (absent in the OB Ariel) could found by epoxying on two carefully shaped pieces of homemade  1/8" frp sheet that met in the middle where the crease was supposed to be.   It closed the whole bottom including the remains of the original well.   Not having seen this crease except on a Triton where it is a smidgeon over emphasized,  I  pushed the temporary 'plates' with 1 X 2s to the ground until it looked curvey and let it set.   I filled in the plug from the top and got it mostly flat with the edges of the hole.   To release the mold I grinded away the 'plates' underneath untill I saw the edge of the release tape,   Since I cheated and used only double=sided carpet tape with the peeler left on,  two layers,   it was so tight I had to use a carjack to push it up into the well.  All the temporary sheet ended up ground off.  except maybe a little that remained as the bottom of the plug.   The bottom was filled and longboarded with the plug in place.)

Photo 7 -
This is the starboard web frame that forms the side of the well and ties the aft bit of the deck into the lazarette.   Because of the high cut in the transom for the tilting saildrive the split backstay plates will be mounted at the ends of the toerail on the transom.
You are also looking at the corner of the starboard gas tank which for the most part uses what used to be the old gas can deck and foam.   I'm waiting to be castigated for this installation.   But the exposed parts of the tanks are 5/16s to 3/8" thick.

This ends the series.   I hope to convince Bill to herein  post a fisheye view of the plug in place using a snap shot of mine.     Hope this is useful.:D

JUST GOT BACK FROM ANOTHER FINE SAIL ON LAKE CHAMPLAIN
AND JUST LOOKED AT THIS THREAD IN ITS ENTIRETY

I AM IN AWE OF EBBS WORK

I AM REAL GLAD I DONT HAVE TO DO THIS AMOUNT OF WORK YET

DOES EBB HAVE A REGULAR JOB??

AND WHEN IS THE LAUNCH DATE???

IF IM EVER IN CALIFORNIA I GOTT SEE HIS BOAT

ICEMAN

ebb will be found one day aboard his little ship preserved in what experts will believe to be an organic compound called epoxy.   The forensictechs will be astounded to discover his Nicholson 49 in its bucket scabbard,  and evidence of imported water and delifude in his colon,  which proves he had contact with commercial food giants.   Studies will show his veins contained a liquid composed of grains and herbs believed to be called 'beveridge.'
Lung tissue will reveal copper particles and silicon fibers and a hundred other exotic compounds.   Scientists will assume the specimin was forced to spend his life climbing in and out of what they believe is a prime example of "restoration"  for which they will find no known purpose.


Gene,  Bill,  thanks for a soul stirring day on the Bay!:D

Ebb!
B-day?...You?...Cheers!

Due to overwhelming demand, :)  we are presenting the next series of photos to show how Ebb created the OB Well Plug.  

Step #1, As described elsewhere, two temporary frp sheets were glued to the bottom of the hole delineating the crease that runs between the rudder and the transom.   Then the plug shape was molded in with 2 layers of xmat on the sides,  more on the bottom to allow for possible fairing.   White strips are carpet tape with peeler left on.  Plug was glued to the temporary sheets which were then ground off.

Step #2, shows the plug being filled with pvc foam and gel.

Step #3 Shows the plug during fairing before getting the white sanding primer the inside received.

What progress since 08 (or is that 02) of '04, ebb? (Apparently, I am date-ually challenged on this Forum... or I'd be heading south onboard Scirocco about now, right, Bill?  :o :D) I'm especially interested in what has been going on with your interior. #370 will need strongback replacement (as part of a General Replacement of Everything), and I've been considering doing similar to what you've done. If your Non-Bulkheaded Interior is patented and considered Intellectual Property, maybe I'll put a compression post in instead of the massive strongback you created. ;)

I guess that there will be a new Gallery thread of the work on #370 starting soon - I'm about to go spread sail all over the lawn for perusal and note-taking. Have a compass and some sheet blocks here to clean up. Pitiful little projects when compared to the volumes of work being done North and West of here, but all that I have on hand for the next 6 weeks until The Adventure Begins...

Kurt

Kurt:  ah - h h - h e m:
Don't have no stinkon pattent.   EVERYTHING I have said or done has been to generate discussion first and to record what has been done right or wrongly to Ariel 338.  I yam what I yam,  not expert,  just sharing for the good of the order, thusly.   And very fortunate to be part of this forum.

                  ----------------------------------------------------------

With a pipe compression post I hear you  get a great handhold to swing around into the v-berth.   It would be a great challenge to be rid of the compression bulkhead (almost) entirely.   There'ld be some elegant engineering to do to neutralize the forces of the upper shrouds and mast.  But IF that was satisfied maybe an enclosable head could be snuck in there.   The framing of the head providing some more immobilizing support under the mast as well.   Might consider and plan the 'off center' bulkheading as changed location compression bulkhead.  Every piece of furniture you buildin (a shelf, eg) is structural.   And you could play with the head enclosure maybe by building it out at right angles to the hull at least in the v-berth side,  rather than off the station lines of the architect's drawing - make for more friendly looking space in the remaining berth.   Go for it. :D

We just finished a photo shoot and update meeting at Ebb's quality yacht barn in beautiful San Rafael, CA.  Temp has soared into the low 60's just to accommodate us  :)  

Photos with some written details will follow soon.  Editing is next . . .  :(

Here's a photo of Ebb's engineering table where the enhancements for 338 are created  :D

A copper bottom . . really.  Epoxy loaded with powdered copper and then "painted" onto the bottom of the boat.  Ebb has agreed to supply the formula upon request.    ;)

Here's a view of the liner where it meets the top of the main companionway.

Here is the mockup for the new main hatch slide.  The rails shown are mockups and the final location will be placed closer to the hatch.  One reason for the new rails is Ebb's search for more headroom . .   :)

Gotta get back to the design center (see above) and work on editing the rest of the photos . . . :D

Proposed hatch rail/slides go full length to the break and will also have the removable seahood mounted on them.  The design will have a water relief channel on the inside running along where the original molding rises.Since these here are wood forms intended to make female molds into which the final frp pieces will be laminated, the resulting pieces will be easy to trim lower if necessary.   They look rather tall,  I like the ones you see  on the Cape Dory 25.  

Really like the original curved hatch.  But am thinking of a light-emitting, flat lexan slider riding on teflon on the lower rabbet with the traditional metal keeper on top.  {A flat surface for a map or a sandwich and salad.  Just a flat surface!!]  If I curved the hatch I would gain headroom, but flat it's only about an inch gained!  The real purpose is to protect the  slider from being striped off by a comber, assuming the rails can take it.

Quote from: BillA copper bottom . . really.  Epoxy loaded with powdered copper and then "painted" onto the bottom of the boat.  Ebb has agreed to supply the formula upon request.    ;)

Cool! Is this an alternative to alblative bottom paint - a more "permanent" solution?  Bottom painting sucks.

All I know is hearsay.  It works in cooler waters, better the further north you are.  No good in the tropics.   Said to keep barnacles off in SFBay, but weed will form.  Depends if the basin you're in flushes well. too.   Brand name Copperpoxy (//www.copperpoxy.com), said to have 60% copper powder in a two-part epoxy putty like material.   It is rediculously expensive ($300 gal, no kidding).  Make your own with 'Low Vis' epoxy and copper powder ($14 a #) at 1/4 to 1/3 the price from epoxyproducts.com.  The site and the owner are user friendly and flog highend and safer material.   The website is worth your time and a lot of fun.

I put three coats of potable water white epoxy on my mottled bottom,  if later we get down to pure white,  that's the 'gelcoat'.    I thought it a great product and used it also in the belly tank under the cabinsole.   A 100% solids material.

Now when it came to the 5 coats (I think) of made copper/epoxy I started with less powder and added more each time,  up to 35% I believe.  (Well the first coat was too thick and sticky and tore the rollers apart depositing sponge bits over the entire surface, easy to sand off but not recommended.)   Low Vis goes off quicker than what I'm used to,  but it worked out fine doing one side at a time.   The effect it had is quite astonishing,  after the second coat it was like a dog fight for the crowd it gathered in the marina.   Shows how bored people can get!

Adding the copper makes the epoxy thicker,  I just worked with what I liked to roll on without tipping and fast, FAST.  The powder and the epoxy are the same weight, so there is no separation or settling out after mixing.   After eight coats  ( just kept going till the powder ran out, saved enuf for the rudder and those bare spots under the keel when the blocks were moved.), I don't think it's built up a 1/16th of an inch.  But I always tried to add a little more on the stem and under the keel.   And it is ALL barrier coat anyway.  Did lite quick sanding between coats: scratching.  If I put another coat on the next day I felt I didn't need to sand.   Sanding knocks off pieces of the roller that get pulled off.   This is what you adjust in your mixing to avoid - by the last two coats I'ld got it down!

I guess I'll see what happens at my first haulout.  Supposed to hose it off and drop it back in.   Maybe a diver can brush the growth off in the water.   Cheaper?   Do it by self?  ScotchBrite pad scrub?  Do know there is a fine barrier coat on 338's bottom.   Copper/epoxy said to enhance ablative longevity and strength when you must paint.   Will avoid sanding.  But it would be fantastic not to have to ablative anymore!

Both epoxys mentioned here are 100% solids, no solvents.   But I do keep a quart can of xynol handy.  Tablespoons of the solvent will loosen up stuff too sticky or heavy, and may give a couple more minutes of working time.   Mixed 24 oz per side, but don't quote me, it left some in the liner pan which just got hard and left in the pan for the next time. :p

[Notice in the upper left portion of the copper photo (Pg 11 - #156) a faint incised line caught by the light.   That's the original scribe line in the gel coat showing thru, left there on purpose.   That shows you can't hide no sins after eight coats.   The white coats are very thin.]

That is astonishing. I'm slack-jawed.

Sea Hood too!

Hmmmmmmm........Sea Hood. I must have one.

Ladies and Gentlemen.  Step right up and view the very latest in hutches to cover hatches.  

#1 Hutch formed with urethane insulation foam

#2 Foam covered in double knit "old man's cotton underwear"

#1 Two coats hi-build epoxy sanding prime with channels cut for lid

#2  PVC channel ready to be epoxied into channels

Hutch sitting on lazarette hatch . . . to be continued.

Interested spectators.  We now move from outside to inside and the conversion of the bilge to a water tank.  First, of course, is removal of the original sole plywood.

View looking forward showing old plywood sole to the left, prepped "bilge" center and paper baffle pattern to the right.

#1 First bulkhead installed at end of ballast keel (with original cover of mat & polyester left in place).  Bulkhead establishes both the new top of the tank and the sole. [Displayed are Ebb's favorite tools, except for the Makita angle grinder - that's not a favorite.]

#2 View of bilge area under cockpit.  Mat & epoxy lines the sump and helps support the end bulkhead.  Bulkheads were cut using paperboard patterns.

#1 Bulkheads lined up under a strongback - - not just tabbed in.

#2 Special flange former used to create filets.

Filleting and tabbing complete showing glassed in PVC conduits to drain forward parts of boat.

Interior view of the completed water tank.  Tank cover being held to one side.

Cover placed over the water tank forming the base for installing the sole.

Water in the bilge and a house on the afterdeck?  What is that guy thinking of?
  ;)

don't swear, no sexual references,
smile a lot, and it's on the house.


Water tank holds 267# sweet water.

Quote from: BillHutch sitting on lazarette hatch . . . to be continued.

 :confused:
A slicker version of the outboard motor well on the Atom website?
http://www.atomvoyages.com/projects/TaipanRefit.htm (http://www.atomvoyages.com/projects/TaipanRefit.htm)

Or perhaps a hunker hole when you get in trouble and your cabin area has been taken up by the emergency inflatable flotation system?

Do tell...    :rolleyes:

(Jim did a nize job on that Taipan!

Hey, I'm no David Blaine,  but the motor don't tilt and the bilge don't hold no water!)

Swear you'll like the lid when it's done...
Rather have you swear at it,
rather than ignore it. :eek:

Also, I'm still trying to come to grips with the irony of picturing Ebb at a marina pumping water INTO his bilge!  Nice idea, BTW, easy to inspect/clean.

Actually, I think he's just trying to one-up the McGregor crowd by making that extra ballast usable. Heck, kick it up a notch use it as a tub!
 :cool:

Mike,
Multi-use is definitely where it's at.   Geoff got me started down the rhumb line with his diesel tank below the cabin deck.   I think there'ld be no way the keep the smell in check.  338 has it's gas engine hanging outside.   Sweet water for voyaging in a ballast mode seems like a good idea anyway.   At one time I thought of putting the batteries down there,  but you 'perts would have dressed me down for that.   Right?

Deodorized kerosene could be stowed there.  How would a cruiser otherwise carry the fuel - in gallon cans?   I hadn't got the dip stick made yet when the inspectors arrived to shoot the boat.  Planned  to fill the tank a gallon at a time and mark the stick accordingly.  Check for leaks this way.   Of course I thought about an official 'fill' but forgot to put it in.  So have to do that and it's easier to proof if the lid is accessable from both sides.

Have looked into kerosene for cruising,  we've talked about it on the forum.  The belly tank would be a way to carry fuel for stove, heaters and backup lighting.  But the smell issue rears its ugly head.   Don't know.  I committed the tank to Sc80 PVC fittings, not brass like Geoff did.  Is PVC ok with fuel oil?

Found a site where a couple of Slovanians are looking for venture capital to swing a diesel ob into the market that doesn't weigh much more than the four stroke.   And it would burn biofuel as well.  Bet they looking at the middle of the market, be a long time befor a ten horse would drop below 250#!!

I got some nice bronze access plates on sale.  (Mariner's Hardware)   Wanted 6" but went for the 5 inchers.
5 means that I can't really get my arms in the hole (especially in the shallow end).   Sometimes I feel like a motherless child.

From the multi-use stand point - it would be a great place to keep cured olives in brine  Or wine.

Ebb,
I sure you filled us in before , but what is up with the 'keyhole' in your transom?
And what is the water tank surfaced with ?

Mike,
Keyhole slot is where a key is inserted to start the boat.  Pg 9 #127

Tank Coating is epoxyproducts.com NSP 120 / NSF 61 Approved Potable Water Epoxy.   Read the MSDS.


If anyone is prone to using this product for this use: I do not advocate the use of this product for drinking water.

I will, after the tank is set up, and flushed a couple times, fill it with water and keep it in there for 8 weeks or so,  after which I'll have it tested for the specific chemicals that might have leached from the epoxy.  If something shows up I will run it thru a carbon filter and test the water again.

I do not trust THE chemical industry nor THE regulators to come clean with the consumer.   The coating is applied outside of laboratory control by an unlicensed, untrained, probably-guilty-of-something (PGOS) individual.  It is best to be wary of approvals and claims and the language used to describe attributes and limitations of a product.   IMCO the only approvable containment for potable water is mineral glass. Haven't found a paint-on version yet.  Nearly ALL plastics have been proven many times over to be a gamble or downright dangerous.   Not sure about bakelite.

Not only are these glass classics seaworthy and well built but can be customized and updated to whatever you need. Great job, you have inspired me to install/ build internal gas tanks for the outboard engine and maybe some other things for my Commander. I'm still thinking/ looking/planning on how to raise and lower the outboard motor with some mechanical contrivence. Impressive, well done. :o

Looking forward to reading of your exploits! :D

Self built-in frp gas tank is a real challenge.
Don't ever want to leak into the boat
or into the environment.

I have wondered at times how to go about getting them CG approved.  I have wondered if I should bother at all.   Might try to locate a certified tank tester.  Must be live tank certifying tank testers around, right?   The test would require the tank hold a certain amount of pressure for a certain length of time.   I would do the air pressure test first myself - it has to be the same as the one used for new plumbing at a construction site.  

But I have a feeling that even if the tanks passed they wouldn't be approved for gas because there probably are no regs for plastic gas tank testing.  No sane person would think of it! :eek:

The only legal tanks are store bought.

Robert,
Have seen a photo of a rail/slide gizmo hung on a transom that caused the motor to be lifted out of the water.   The OB clamped to it.  So it may be a market item.  Getting the motor out of the water straight up would require a whole lot of travel in the device.  Now,  if you could lift it up to a point and then tilt the OB that might work.   But not in the Ariel well.  Unless you were tempted to put a keyhole (as Mike Called it) in the transom.

Straight up lift would require 12 to 18" (?).  To cover the hole in the aft 'deck' the hutch/hatch on 338 has to clear 14" above the deck.  And that's a tilted motor.

Must be a reason why for four decades skippers have lifted a two-cycle out and laid it sideways in the Lazerette or below.

The guy who invented the CapeHorn steering vane had a Triton.   He rigged his OB on a spar that pivoted amidships off his starboard side, I think, that he lowered and raised with block and tackle at the cockpit.   You may find his web site.  He did some serious cruising.  But what happened to the motor on a portack? :p

Yves Gelinas and his A30 Jean du Sud.  I recomend his film about his round about.  Groovy little boat too.

//www.capehorn.com

I have to use the English site still :(

Thanks for posting Gelinas' page here.  The 10 horse OB was mounted off his port quarter.  Just visited real quick.

The boat was an A30.  Way to go Carl!

His dodger instead of ss tubes had cloth/rubber ones that were kept pressurized with a pump.  Collapsable in way of a comber.

His Cape horn vanes are guranteed for one circumnavigation.

A bon viveur with boatfuls of bons mots.

Ebb,
Refering to post#125 on p. 9

I have a question (go figure)  After filling the gap between the cabin top and the headliner around your main ports, how stiff did that region become.  If you push out on the port opening with one hand and eight inches away you pull in with your other hand, how much twist, if any, do you get?

Also, what is the average thichness/dimention from outside cabin top to inside liner around the opening?

Thanks, Tony

HiYa Tony,
Mine may be different from yours for a number of reasons.  I would just hang out in the boat with a number of those short clean shims that come wrapped in celophane you get from the hardware.   And orange handled squeeze clamps.  Do every hole together til you have concensus.

Experiment until you get the same overall thickness measured from outside to inside.  I'ld bet the measurement varies from boat to boat.

It's possible that a liner could go in a little crooked in the rush of things at the plant.  That might mean that one side of the liner is closer to the cabin side than another.  My guess that is pretty remote.  But since the inside of the cabin and the liner were never going to be seen by anybody there might be some shortcuts taken that would make the mating of the two a little difficult.   My liner was definitely WONKUS in a number of places.

But space between liner and cabin at the windows on 338 nigh equal right and left.

Since you are not reinstalling the original frames and you doing a version of thru bolting, you'll be able to cut each bolt exact.   Therefor if you HAVE to end up with  varying thickness you are out of trouble.  But it would be so much easier if all your bolts could be the same length.   And that means the deadlight holes have to be the same thickness all around.

The liner is also bent out of shape:
at the compression beam
under the deck
around the companion way
and wherever there are fastenings for rails and gear.
"TWIST"  must be a relative thing.  I wouln't push anything into an unnatural shape.   Wouldn't you think that the original mold for the liner was made very fair?   And you'ld think the unseen inside of the cabin would be pretty clean and fair too.

The cabin IS fair,  that narrow section between the holes should be absolute fair with the outside of the cabin.  It has to be to mount the deadlight frames.   The 'cheating' came by squeezing the relatively bendy liner.  Maybe you can clamp a temporary strongback to the outside,  and see if you can open a space in that skinny piece of center liner to the space you have decided on, without deflecting the outside cabin piece.   Sight along the outside to see if is fair - bend a batten over it to see if something has been bent out of fair over time.

If that LINER center piece won't comply,  it could be cut and 'repaired' with all the epoxy and cabosil you are going to stuff in there.

Would guess that to come up with the deadlights Pearson has designed there that the space was assumed to be constant all around each of the 4 frames.  HAD to be,  the inner frame machine screws all screwed into deadend holes.   Therefor the space had to be the same all round.  The liner had to be beautifully fair when made  Then the guys had to crank it into submission.  Over time it has maybe taken a set.  But I believe the cabin itself has never twisted, except that there skinny piece between the front window and the back window. MAYBE!

Will come back from the boat with the thickness I came up with.  Should say  the boat came up with it.  But I felt we just were doing the equalizing that bloody Pearson should have done in the first place.  I'll let you know.      Long winded ebb.

{Strength?  I'll have to bang and see.  The filled center section shows very little deflection when hit.    It's amazing how stiff the sides became even with the gaping holes.  The sides are mildly curved, sculpted.  The convex curves of the cabin add a lot of strength.  The relatively narrow original frames follow these mild curves well but not the glass.  Applying 3/8 or 1/2" lexan to the outside and thru bolting thru epoxy filled sides will provide your cabin with unbelievable  360 roll over green water tsunami comber strength.}

Hey Ebb, here's a Cal 25 sporting a hard dodger similar to what I understand you are planning . . . :p

How about a close-up?

the juxtaposition of circular deadlights with the angular is particularly gratifying.  The designer, obviously with safety in mind, has kept the openings quite conservative in the event of boarding seas.  Hard edges and flat planes will cut any comber to pieces thereby shrugging off and canceling the weight of the water.  

The multi-purpose flat top will be useful for solar panels, sunbatheing or keeping a goat tethered.   Clever use of WWII mindsweeper grey is in keeping with the whole nautical theme.   And the crawl-thru entrance with its centrally located recessed latch is curious - but safe, no doubt - as is the paucity of dangerous vents.   Everyone has his own limits.   All in all an interesting effort!

Hey Bill, Enough of this boat porn ! 1st Commander Pete and now you when will it stop . I doubt if even one of Pete's gals would make that boat look good .

If you're gonna do it, do it right.

Is it having a baby..?

As a kid we had a double ended steel lifeboat painted black and gray. It was about an ugly a boat as you could want;however, we had more fun motering up and down the Delaware River and Bay. I bet the owner of the sail boat pictured thinks it beautiful,looks like its used alot. I must have bad eyes or am having somekind of 60's flashback but are there really two identical boats pictured above, who would make such things and what are they used for? At first I thought they were some mass production pleasure craft for patriotic workers from the old Soviet Union or East Germany untill I took notice of the American auto.   :o

HAS to be a catamaran, right?  Those hulls ain't wide enuf to stand up on their own.  IF it is a cat,  just imagine the coordination it'd take the skipper and the mate  to steer the thing with them separate rudders and ten foot tillers! :eek:

That is a James Wharram cat, not sure of the model , might be a Tangaroa .
The tillers are connected with an arm so they move in concert .
That is not a "stock" cabin design !

Plantation tending has kept EBb very busy this spring, but he has made some progress on the hutch for the ob compartment.  Looking at the aft end from outside the "garage:"

From above

With lid in place (Got to figure out why the flash quit):

Nice craftsmanship on that hood Ebb. I was wondering where you are putting the traveler now, on the hood somehow or further forward in the cockpit?

Thanks Tim!,
Travelor?  Whart travelor?

Well, since this is sort of a public work in progress, maybe you can get me out of trouble :D

Aunty Ariel, the Angel of inspiration has failed me on this - however:

1)   There could be a midboom travelor on the after part of the hard dodger I plan to put there.  But the Angel is telling me that the dodger being so dangerously prominent has to be rounded (therefor not wide enough for a travelor) and I have the feeling that the dodger will have to have a hatch in it also, because it only will have sitting height under.

2)  Since the boom on 338 is to be canted up to allow standing in the cockpit,  and a vertical pole of some design could be installed permanently to rig a crane to lift the OB out of the well,  perhaps this can be conceived as an arch (ouch!) and could also have the travelor on it. Certainly haven't any experience here!   This strong structure at the end of the cockpit really appeals to me.  It could be independant or part of the push pit.  Have installed  continuous maranti backing plate under the rear deck, ready for any idea.

Don't have an aesthetic problem with an arch so long as it is practical and necessary.

3)  Is a travelor really necessary?  What did we do befor Harken?  Is there a REAL advantage for a cruiser to have one?

GUYS,  GALS,  TIM,  This is YOUR responsibility :D

Traveler or no, I think mainsheet probably should be fairly near aft end of boom for best sail shape control. How much clearance would you say you will have between top of hood and boom? Maybe you could mount some short pedastals on the hood so as not to interfere with your hatch? How strong is that hood anyway??? :rolleyes:

Boom gallows that double as a lift for the OB?  Perhaps similar to this modification on a COntessa 26?

http://www.pocketcruisers.com/contessa%20corner/tech_traveler.html

Tim,
Stupidly didn't weigh the hutch befor install.  Fairly light, but you and me could both stand on it.  With added backing plates the sides could be used to partial support a structure that has a base on the deck.  Compression strength is built into the rounded shape. but a pointy whomp might hole it, it's about 1/4" in most places, the lid is reinforced with pvc foam, the water channels meant to add 'rib' strength to the opening.

In thinking about this conundrum,  It is my feeling that the structure for the travelor should have all of its strength from the base, the feet.

Like Mike's Contessa example (Thanks!), even tho it is obvious rigid, it is able to take the shock of a jibe independantly of, say, the coamings if it had been designed that way.

On an Ariel the end of the boom is at the end of the cockpit.  I agree, it is the #1 location for the boom sheet.  I'm not sure the hutch creates a convenient seat back/arm rest,  I mean I'm not sure if one can sit back there while sailing,  but I angled the hutch with that in mind, not thinking that the travelor might have to be there!  Therefore in the interests of heads and tails the travelor has to be further back and/or higher.

The Contessa seems to have the sheet purchase at an angle to the end of the boom.  The sheet seems to go forward at an angle to the boom.  How much of an angle is allowable?  I'm aware the travelor at near 90 degrees below the boom is the way it is often designed.

A boom gallows under a boom that's 6 and a half feet off the cockpit sole is TALL!  Could be a sliding one?  But to lift the OB out of the well with the 'crane' with block and tackle will take a lot of height.  So maybe my lifting gear will have to be separate (and carried stowed) like already designed by Gene and Garhauer.

So, now, if the travelor bridge is half way back to get it out of the way, it then will be right over the well.  

What happens if the travelor is mounted virtually at the stern?  It would would be a bridge maybe nearly 12" high.  Is this kopecetic, my friends, is this a solution?  Thanks!

EB,
Since you are making a cruising styled boat...You might concider the type of travler that works off two blocks on the base...IE, they could be mounted on the base of the deck just in front of the hutch...I have seen this on many cruising boats that don't use a travlers at all...I would call it and end block arrangement.....I will try to find a boat and send a picture...Joe Antos

Quote from: JOE ANTOS. . concider the type of travler that works off two blocks on the base.

Isn't that the style of the original main sheet setup on the Areil/Commander?  The blocks were placed on the two raised sections of the deck just forward of the lazarette hatch and aft of the cockpit seats.

Bill,
Hi there...I think I saw that style on an Ariel somewhere and on some other boats too...The ability to sheet to winward is lost from my veiw. But it might work for his boat working around the Hutch..Joe

Thank you, gentlemen, for your interest.

Might I ask the panel:
The main purpose of a mainsheet travelor is to make it possible to have more adjustment when beating.
Another reason is to have a more conventient location for the helmsman to control the sheet, which comes from a central block.
Are there other uses for the travelor?  Is a travelor necessary for sail performance?
Doesn't a rigid vang add more control of the boom that used to asked of the travelor?  In other words, maybe we can go back to the original block-only system?
Has anybody sailed in the Ariel with the old method.   Can you compare the two?
Joe intimates  that the deck blocks could be mounted, let's say, more or less even with the end of the boom.  Since the boom amidships is the only time that relation occurs, why does it matter where the blocks are placed?  There at the end of the cockpit or further aft?

Is it cockpit aesthetics that makes the boom/sheet arrangement look right only when the end of the boom is directly over the travelor?  Even tho it could be argued that the boom is never there while sailing?
Is there a mechanical reason why the travelor could not be mounted across the stern rail?  Too odd?   Just not done?  Just asking.  This is hypothetical, the hatch needs to be raised of course.

It just occurs to me that a travelor setup gives at least one more part to the block system, making it easier to haul the boom in.

Has anybody entertained the notion that it would be a good thing to get the travelor out of the cockpit?

Ideas?  Mucas Gracious!!!

I should like to add my questions to yours.......
 
Added on edit;
But upon edit, I think I will post mine in another thread.....
 
link to thread on Main sheet Travlelers (http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?p=9819&posted=1#post9819)

Eb,
Looking at the hutch.....  is possible to mount the blocks  on the outer sides of the hutch since it is made fast and looks strong...As far as I can would isee the far end of the boat might be too far aft to mount the controls of blocks or a raised traveler....The lines would come up at an angle and could rub the hutch.....I once looked hard at installing the traveler on my older Ariel in the cockpit...about 12 inches back from the drop boards.....I finally decided it would be too busy in close when working the sheets....As far as the vang goes. I use it to steady the down wind and reaching legs....keeps steady pressure and dosen't rise and fall like line vangs....Going up wind it can help flatten the main...When its light I keep it loose....I would like to visit some day to see the boat...Joe

Thanks, Joe,
Glad to show you the boat.  Could use your input.  See your 'private message.'

Was wondering if the rigid vang  performs some of the functions of the standard travelor in the cockpit making it possible to go back to the original 3-block mainsheet.  I'm not predjudiced against any right-on solution.    It's not hard to 'see' it in stainless steel tube.

Mike's Contessa link above has another guy's installation using tube - tho not as impressive as the angles and wood one it looks lighter and the idea could be borrowed  to get the blocks and/or travelor off the deck and out of the cockpit.  If the lead to the boom was OK.  ???? :confused:

Ebb -

Dropped back into here in search of under-cockpit quarterberth info. Had to change my Thread View settings to be able to find your thread.

Over 100 days since an update. Tony is winning (you said so yourself). What's going on out there at the Borregaard Skunkworks? :D

Maybe you can bribe Bill with some fresh wine to get him to post some new photos. I'll send the cheese and crackers if some interior shots can be posted. :D

Many race boats have the traveller down low across the middle of the cockpit (I would hate that, a real shin banger)

But, how about across the cockpit seats at the very end in front of the hutch?

Seems like a good place for the traveler, but for the mainsheet.
 
  I it seems to me like it would spend an awful lot of time right in the middle of things, or forced to be bent arond the sides of the cabin top.  
 
Let me go out and sail the boat, (it is 72f, blowing about 12) I will tie a line around the boom and hang it down to try to picture it and get back to you.

wha..? w h a a? oh, here aye is.
C'amos, C'pete, Thanks for the input and the research.

I  see now a seatback high tube rail just outside the coamings.  designed in conjunction with the 'breakwaters' at the front of the coamings. They would terminate at the hutch and would have heavy weather sunbrella panels for wind and water protection.  The construction back there at the hutch could include a tube traveler base across the end of the cockpit at a higher level.  If I did decide for that I'd probably set it exactly over the end of the cockpit with a protecting handhold rail in front of it, the hand rail over the seats.  The height is a trial and error mockup situation because you'd be real careful hair and ears and fingers were not danger.  The taller and more elaborate the structure, the more weight.  

A hand hold at the end of the cockpit is in itself much desireable!
Wonder how many fingers and toes are put in jeopardy with in or end cockpit travelor systems?  Then again is the traveler an absolute?

I've kidded myself about how much of a jungle gym is necessary on the aft end of 338.  Me and 338 are well into a weight issue!  I know we too small for wind generators and radar towers and whatever.  If the travelor/handhold piece still allowed the OB to be craned out of the well, you could design the stern rail out of the picture.  Don't know about the solar panels, when I get to it will most likely go for flexible and a semi-bimini type mount.  ???

One duck is tied to the next duck and the next.

In the beginning I reinforced the foward corners of the seats (icebox removed) thinking an arch could be put over the cockpit there, anchored on the seats, perhaps part of the dodger.  That may become an option again because the boom is raised now, the arch could be higher up and access to the companionway more dignified.   Don't believe our OE boom can be converted to mid-boom sheeting.  I like the loosefoot sail, so it HAS to be end-boom sheeting.

How's that sheet lead look?

Ebb,
 
  Somehow I read your post, and got the idea you were toying with the idea of going FORWARD with the traveler!
 
 

QuoteMany race boats have the traveller down low across the middle of the cockpit (I would hate that, a real shin banger)

But, how about across the cockpit seats at the very end in front of the hutch?

I guess I read 'hatch' (thinking of the companionway hatch) where you wrote hutch.  :confused:
 
  So I made up a line to the boom while I was sailing around (on a perfectly beautiful afternoon) just aft the companionway, and then laid a boat hook across the forward end of the cockpit.  The irea seemed manageable, only real problem I saw was that you would not be able to simple leave the traveler 'centered' as it would make it difficult to go below (but not impossible).
 
  Maybe I should not even have admitted looking into this, since it was all based on an understanding.  I will say that misunderstanding or not I think I would rather have this set up then the one pictured above.

Hey Craig, envy your sail this Sunday,  yes, I do.

Everytime I alter something it generates a domino effect.
Don't recall anyubody here objecting to a midboom sheeting arrangement.  Caution comes from me from what I've read.  Do believe it would mean a stiffer boom to take the three bails and blocks.  Not there yet!

As finding a place for a travelor becomes more serious, the over the c'way becomes more an alternative again.  Another addition to 338 will be a hard dodger.  But at the moment it's figuring out if a hard permanent windscreen with tube and fabric pram hood behind it is feasible.  The top of the screen would be above the forward end  of the opening and the hood would be folded forward to the windscreen allowing good access below.  My lean is toward a well rounded dodger, front and top, that won't include a wide travelor as part of it, as I have seen.  It would be great to get two for the price of one if they could be structurally combined.  But it's not going to happen.  I've witnessed that a cockpit wide travelor is necessary for effective boom placement and depowering.



So if this travelor is somewhere over the bridge deck - because the further back on the boom the block are the less force needed to sheet - it would be separate from the hood and would be designed  to be high enough to get below without contortion.  It could be above the dodger when the dodger was depolyed and designed in such a way as to be grabbable for going on deck and getting into the cockpit.  If boats can go around without any rear ends and have their travelor in a slot under the cockpit deck than why not go contrare somewhere above the companionway.  Hunters do it in the stern.  Maybe a taller arch over the bridge deck is possible with something near cocpit width????  OH boy.... what a pickle.

[In the middle of the night I 'saw' the travelor arch looking like a boom gallows with tube legs coming up from outside the coamings at the end of the dodger.  Now, more awake, this arch thing is easy to move  back and forth ...in the mind.  And there it is over the back end of the cockpit again!!!]

Think that the tails of the travelor sheets would be better away from the tiller and the OB - better up front with the halyards reefers cunningham and vang ends, and down hauls.  Anybody with me on this visualization?

Thanks for the test!  I guess I got myself into this, again.  "It is all in how you go from one mistake to the next."  Let's hope awl ebb goes sortof gracefully and with more speed toward the better compromise. :(

Ebb,
    Ran across these Poly Vinyl Chloride cylindrical water tubes...thought they might fit in your custom tank boxes up forward.

http://www.western-marine.com/page123.htm

Chris ;)

Might have run into Western Marine myself befor.  Then discovered these Western Marines is in Western New Zealand or Southern Ireland.  OUTther somere.

One of the best if not THE best online northern hemisphere hardware stores is MacMaster Carr.  Try em out, takes 15 minutes to comprehend their unique but very useful catalog system.

In fact the choices of possible tank/system hose, tube and fittings on that site (including vinyl, pvc) are incredible but usually limited by how much money you want to spend.

I have wished we could talk about it on a thread but didn't think, as I often find out, anybody would be interested.  

I'm still wondering what the best is - and what the second & third choices would be.
Ideal plumbing layout,
Best hand pumps,
Best electric pump,
Best plumbing material? ;)

(I know I have researched every 'through bulkhead' ie thru-tank fitting on the net.  Never have found one that would really work well with glassed in place frp tanks.  They are large flange fittings that depend on a rubber washer for the seal - which makes it a maintenance item.  The best plastic ones imco are made by Hayward.  Because I wanted tanks that would drain into the system and tend to self clean I've ended up epoxying pvc pipe thru tank as low as I could get it.  Even got some s.s. pipe nipples to make thru-tanks, but felt, perhaps erroneously, that I'd get a better glue-in with plastic to plastic.  Obviously would be best to put in a replacable thru-tank.  Make sure trhere is an access plate into the tank over any thru-tank.  Or design tank so you draw liquid out of the top.....etc.....etc.)

Ebb,
 
Just read through this thread again, looking at your hatch-mounting-frame-building methods.  ;)   Think my Bomar hatch will stay in it's box for a while longer.....
 
 
  Would love to see an update of your progress.  
 
Thanks,

Really not so difficult.  There must be 10 ways to do it.
Why not put the question out on a new thread to get some
responses not related to this thread.  Mike Goodwin,  Frank
Durant, for instance, probably know and recommend a far simpler
method than what ebb came up with.  You betcha.

What's Tony G. up to these days???

OK, snake with legs here:
It's been awhile  :eek: since those Bomars (pg 10 136-7-8) were messed with, and they are not even bolted in yet!
Believe I had to cut the old hatch coaming off - without making the hole larger, and grinded it fair to the camber.  Then laid out the larger hole my Bomar required.  I knew what wood I had to use for the 'lining' (coaming?) for the Bomar and cut a hole that the wood would line up with on the inside of the Bomar flange. Made sure I cut the hole square by adjusting the foot of the jigsaw (or bluetape on a stirring stick).  The liner is essentially a 90 degree box in the hole.  So you can temp screw the box together.  Ground off the gelcoat out a couple inches all round.

Decided on a minor forward tilt.  Slightly higher on the aft side.  Don't know why.  If you cut the liner tight enough (force fit) just lay the Bomar (took the top off) on the pieces and tap them til you're satisfied, parallel with the deck, tilted, whatever.  Doublesided carpet tape may work too.  Can also hold the liner (box or pieces) by screwing into the balsacore,  but you'd have to make these holes disappear later.

Cut the bottom of the liner to close to the finished depth and forward curve and aft curve (they are different.)  Use a suitably sized little block of wood (width of proposed trim) or a compass to scribe.  It would help if you have a finished smooth surface on the roof inside.

The Bomar flange is 1 1/2" wide.  The liner in 338 is 1/2". That allows ample solid material for the bolts that fasten the hatch (the filler is 1" wide) - bolts go round the outside of the flange about 1/2" in.  The material in the photos is 3/4" thick.  With that thickness it's obvious I intended to recess the nuts.  If the result is too 'busy', a thin finishing strip might go over them. Or some resilient peel and stick rubber.  Could let the liner run proud and fit in thinner trim for the bolts.  That way there may be some protection for the top of the head.  

The trim around the hole will take some fitting and as an option be held in place with screws thru the liner into the edges if thick enough. Small screws were used as the plugs are are only 1/4".  This is the trim that the bolts from the Bomar will come thru.  The trim will then be held quite securely!  You will have to make a paper pattern to create radius trim pieces on a bandsaw out of thicker stock for the foward and aft.  An oscillating drum sander is very helpful too.  Would do it that way (skinny trim) if I did it again because it would help the hatch look smaller and more tidy and create a couple pleasing shadow lines.  But you don't have to do this til later.  Or, you can finish off the inside pieces up to the final sanding.  depending on your bedding choice, you can positively support the trim pieces without screws with spring battens from the V-berth or sole.  Until you are ready for bedding compound and final Bomar instal.)  

You have to prepare and sand the liner to its finished shape.  Because you won't be able to remove it after the next stage.    No reason that whole hatch support couldn't be wood.  However if you decide on an all wood frame under the Bomar it probably would have to be taller off the deck.  The unconventional way described here gets the hatch as close to the deck as possible.  The fronts of the Bomars sit on the deck.

Now, a perhaps controversial 'cheat'.  Blue tape off the narrow outside edges of the Bomar bottom frame very very carefully.  But befor that apply 2sided fiberglass carpet tape to its bottom - trace & cut it with the utility blade to the exact outside profile  leaving the peeler strip on (epoxy doesn't stick to it - however mylar is a better, smoother, flatter release surface and it is recommend here.)  Place it taped up right on the liner.  Center the inside edges on the liner.  Now's the time to get the liner flat and square if you need to (low angle plane.)  Then firmly clamp the prepared frame to the liner.

Fill the space under the frame with mishmash.  
Make sure the wood in there is juiced and primed and load in a mix of cabosil, glass fibers and epoxy.  But don't fill quite all the way out to the edge {'the edge' means your edge, ie you might want to lean it way out on the bottom...] at the bottom!  After this is set you can take your form off (the Bomar bottom frame) and check how well you did.  But you don't HAVE to move it yet, ok?  Might be better to leave it alone, because you may have to mask it over again.  
Fill any voids (can be done later).  Make sure your wood to epoxy joint is seamless. You hopefully have great confidence in the epoxy you use!  No leaks will happen at this join!  You are molding and bonding to the deck.  And that part of the liner that sticks up out of hole.  [Because the wood can expand and contract on all its other sides the epoxy/wood joint should never open up imho. In the final install you will be bedding the frame in polysulfide (no doubt) and the fastenings are going thru the epoxy buildup - SO the wood is under no stress!!!]

Clamp the frame back in place and fill out to the edge with filleting mix (epoxy and fumed silica.)*  Always prime the surface first with plain epoxy and blot or wipe away the excess.  Add universal color (white, like gelcoat, is good) if you wish.  Here you decide how to hold your spatula blade.  I like a little splay outward to this riser.  A steady hand.  The rounded corners are a butch.  But once it's set, take off the form again and with clothbacked sandpaper carpet-taped to a piece of plywood sand away until the slope and surface are pretty smooth and shapely. Mostly. This filleting stuff can get pretty hard.    Keep the deck surround pristine as well.  This way you can shape to your heart's content and your  muscle's burn. Get those corners all the same  (you can slice with a sharp chisel if the plastic's not totally set) even if the slope is not quite like the straight runs.  You're 'trueing' up the hardened goop for the next ( easier) stage:  

Clamp the rig back on and fill and shape with easy sanding fairing mix. (WS 407 and laminating epoxy.)    The smoother  the surface is - and thinner the last passes of fairing compound are - the more finesse you gain.

[Have since, on 338, filleted (rounded) the join at the deck you see in the photo and botched it - but with fairing mix its easy to sand and shape till it's smooth and even.  A piece of sandpaper around a dowel is perfect here.]



________________________________________________________________________________
* FILLETING MIX -when you mix 2-part epoxy and fumed silica together you get a kind of gel.
You experiment to find out how stiff or loose is good for you.  When you prime your work with plain 2-part liquid you create the bond to the surface you form the gel to.  I brush the liquid on with a brush then blot and wipe the surface 'dry' with paper towels.
If you don't the liquid left behind will combine with your gel and change its consistency, making it looser.  It then can sag and fall out of the shape you want. Filleting mix is structural.  Gets very hard and difficult to remove material from when shaping after it's set.

FAIRING MIX - is your laminating epoxy mixed with West System's 407 powder.  It will become a paste. It becomes a hard but relatively easy material to sand.  It's the brown stuff 338 has all over the outside of the topsides in the photos.  It becomes a hard surface that can be feathered thin and sands easy.   That is why in building up this pad under the Bomar frame you want to leave sanding room so you can fair it even and smooth.

MISHMASH (not my word) is 2-part mixed with chopped fiberglass and fumed silica.  It is structural and is a void filler.  It is hairy and hard when set, horrible to grind and sand.  The proportions you experiment with, but you don't mix in too much glass.  It's there to keep the mass from becoming too brittle, muscle fiber.  In the above deck build up, you tuck it in under the taped frame to avoid dealing with it again!!!
Sure hope some of this makes sense......

I have read it three time now, and I think it is getting more clear.  Sounds like being a master epoxy craftsman makes this easier... :)   That is ok, I have got plenty of sandpaper.  :D

 
Thanks for the break down Ebb, I'll be sure to post the results when I di it.

Just finished a photo shoot at Ebb's boat and found this example of "encapsulated" lead ballast lying next to his boat . . .  At first I thought he might have started a new project . . . :D

Ebb replies:  "Bill, you don't know this: but I removed the ballast from 338 to make up for all the weight I've added up top."   :D

Ebb: "Showing the end on the new toerail and a transom begging for a taffrail!"

Ebb: "Curtains and runs from a disastrous spray-on primer fiasco.  Expectations were of a thin easy to sand final prime.  Even paid the guy for his time.  And yours truly spent the hottest days on record in San Rafael longboarding and sanding the damn stuff nearly all off!"

Ebb: "Port scuppers cut into the molded rail under the new toerail just forward of the Pearson deck scupper.  Whether this is the place for them is arguable.  They are also near the winch base and will constrict water flow on its way aft.  It is way more traditional to have scuppers evenly spaced along the bulwark."

Ebb: "Portrait of the port side toerail"

Ebb: "Finally the OB motor well gets its primer coat, albeit lots of runs, but relatively easy to sand.  Wish I could get somebody else to do it!"

Ebb: "This shows the dodger from the cockpit.  The piece is made from xmat and epoxy over a form.  1/2-inch pvc foam was bent and glued to that and more xmat on top.  Classic sandwich.  Works in progress have many unknowns and surprises.  How it will actually finish up can't tell (ideas, anyone?) - or even if it will have a place there aesthetically.  Unlike Geoff, who has the area covered, the dodger proposed here is only a windscreen requiring an expensive pipe and canvas pram hood to fully protect the c'way.   Dodger has its own bridge over the c'way making it independent of the seahood.  There's a choice whether it will be permanently installed or made removable.  Picture shows the big side hatch-slide rails now built in.  They run the length of the cabin top and the seahood (also removable) mounts there on.  Note taller coamings extending up from the inside and the mockup of a flat hatch."

Ebb: "This shot shows the seahood made with the original sliding hatch.  There may be room under the forward part for a dorade.  Dodger shows some off-the-wall possible windows.  I had planned 3/8" carbonate for these - but bending the plastic to those curves is totally daunting.  Center window indicates a Taylor-Made opening hatch."

Ebb: "Starboard locker conversion to water tank.  Doorskin to the bulkhead with the pencil lines proposes cutting the bulkhead back even further."

Ebb: "This is a trial idea in doorskin.  What are the pros and cons?  The laminated beam would go under the one already there (too massive! lost head room!).  But it would open up the  longer berth room the skipper requires.  The doorskin shows a compass curve, the strongest architectural shape possible, in the only form possible, or am I missing something.  The present compression beam with its struts imho is perfectly adequate.  The arch is strangely more pleasing to me than what's there."

Ebb: "Deck has been lowered to accommodate 19.5-inch height of AirHead head.  Discovered, after the yard leveled the boat, that the V'berths are higher at the fore end by 3/4-inch."

Ebb: "A 1/4-inch thick ply lid covers the sump here.  Tank fittings exit here as do 3 pvc pipes from the focsl, anchor locker, V'berth bilge.  Area under cockpit is waiting for battery compartment."

We had more photos of the drooling paint, but felt they were too embarrassing to post  :o

Ebb, what did you use to coat the inside of your water tank?

Edit: Also did you glass straight the the existing plywood? If so did you lay any type of barrier to keep it from sticking to the ply (I can just imagine for some reason needing to remove it and all the explicitives that would accompany such a feet had it been bonded to the ply wood.)

WOW

I like the arch, but the interior is opened up very nicely already.

I'd go with the biggest windows possible for the dodger, even if you have to use vinyl windows. A  handrail on either side would be good too.

Love the toerail

Sea'pete,  Thanks, for your input!  Maybe the arch and the windows are related in that we do want to get the widest effect possible.  Always in the mix is the 'form follows function' maxim.  The give and take of that is the fun part in trying to be unique but also end with something that looks right.

Dodgers are definitely structures that have to be made to be seen thru.  My choice of a hatch for the center requires all the framing that comes with those things.  Have a feeling it will seem too small.  But it was the largest ready-made I could find for that space.  And the hatch light is glass.  

Have wanted to have windows in the dodger that look related to the windows in the cabin.  An attempt to stay with the '60s look.  That means a frame around the 'light'.  That means giving up see-thru area.  The best, easiest, even strongest, way is carbonate slabbed and thru-bolted over openings.  Can be cut to look like more see-thru area too.  But from the beginning I've wanted to keep that framed look.  We'll see!

__________________________________________________________________________________
3rdmon,
The tank coating is epoxyproducts.com's NSP 120.  A 100% solids 2 to 1 NSF 61 Approved Potable Water Epoxy.  This is the caveat:  NSF (National Sanitation Foundation Testing Lab.) is a private agency that takes FDA statistics and works them into a certification for a product or material.   61 is a number that refers to potable water.   This epoxy is certified for tanks of a 1000gals or more.  I'd like to know what the criterion is that judges whether an epoxy is good for a tank or a quart container?

When you search for a coating in the USA that is certified for potable water in smaller tanks you won't find it.  Imagine all the containers we store and drink water from, including epoxy.  I needed something.  

I used this NSP 120 as the barrier coat on the outside hull.  It's a hard, shiney, recoatable, dense product.  It has an odor when fresh that disappears after set.  I asked Paul at epoxyproducts.com about the smell and he didn't know - but I was assured it wasn't  solvent.  And so far as I know using it inside the boat hasn't produced a reaction.  I take care to mix this product in one container and then pour it into another and stir again to make sure all of it is thoroly mixed. No uncured epoxy we hope.  We're looking for an inert coating when cured.    But who knows what we have here.  Research it and use it without my recommendation.  

Novolac epoxies, highly chemical resistant,  used for coating gas tanks for instance, seem to be something to look into.  All we're looking for is a hard non-reactive liner. I will  pass potable, drinking/cooking water from a tank thru a carbon filter.

Don't know how far you want to get into this:  but when I researched rubber (for seams and fittings) NO polysulfide passes the potable water line.  NONE!  That means polyurethane has to be used.  Sikaflex 1A is OK, 5200 probably as well.  I think I used the 1A because it had a longer open time(?) and was cheaper, coming from the hardware store.  For fuel related we MUST use polysulfide (Thiokol was originally invented to keep WWII planes together, including fuel tanks.) - for water related we MUST use polyurethane.

The tank was made inside the original V-berth.  The tank is part of the hull, let's say.  Unusual are the large triangular sectioned fillers glassed in under the plywood top.  There is a final lid which has two 6" s.s. access plates and a nylon waterfill. Dunno about the vent yet.   The interior is completely glassed.  The tank has a  narrow raised flat bottom.  The draw will be out the bottom, ie thru the bulkhead.  The baffle is 3/16" homemade frp sheet held in place with fillets - with the top let into a groove in the lid.

Quote from: commanderpeteLove the toerail

Ditto that! And the scuppers too... Functional and elegant. Looks like a Fuller tool kit was put to use. :D

Your open interior is sweet. The arch is interesting, but I would think you could use your existing bulkheads for shelving or storage, things I'm sure you can never have enough of.

LOVE the raised toe rail !!! The scuppers are great...and needed. The little 'bulwork'(spell check:Mike) will sure give you a confident feeling going forward offshore.....not to mention a great tool saver to boot.Lookin good buddy...it IS progressing.Too bad about the primer job...WOW !! You and I AFTER a bottle of rum could have done better...ouch!! Think of all that sanding in the heat as a gym alterative.Keep it going Ebb...it really looks great.

Thanks gents for the vote on the rail.  That feels good!

Ebb...I'm not gettin a handle on your interior??.Open IS great,huge watertank down low is super,nice 1/4 berth too if I remember right.Can't place the galley?? Any final ideas yet??

Franko,
Keep telling self to make fullsize mockup with paper and cardboard.  I think the basic thing is to have minimal open access to the starboard Q'berth,  with the dinette continuing off of it all the way to the bulkhead under the mast.  Want to have the largest table possible.  I 'see' the table top with hinges somewhere in the middle so that half of it can easily fold UP - hopefully leaving enough room for the off watch to be comfortable when the dinette converts to bunk.

Ideal would be to push the whole 'double' bunk bed thing forward (over the V-berth tanks) so the the galley area and the c'way are free.  That's why the compass arch looks so good to me - and it's just a few inches extra gained at bunk level.  When the laminated compression beam was built of white oak, I used cloth with epoxy to glue between lams.  Resorcinol supposedly doesn't like the wood,  and I don't think brown glue is waterproof enough.  All the other glues have a problem with creep, except the polyurethanes which I've had problems with just in normal glueing.  Anyway, it's a complicated messy project making that bloody arch the hard way - so hopefully I won't find myself doing it!

Have to have the galley at the c'way so I can stand (with the hatch open.)  The counter won't continue over to where the icebox was,  which has to remain open.  I think the port corner is the best location for the kitchen in 338.  Aside from shelves and cupboards I'm not certain what will be between the galley and the V'berth on the port side.  Because this is standing room here, the ladder has to be removable, tho steps built into the furniture that leaves the center open is an option.  Plan a small portable cold box under the bridge.

Ebb

Now I just have to take a break from work(indentured servency) to sound off.  But don't expect me to bathe you in compliments.  No sir!  This is the level of work and craftsmanship we expect from you by now.

 :eek:

Get real, me...

Nice...very nice.  These hulls really do take a wood toerail well.  But the scuppers!  Schwing!!!  'Don't recall you mentioning anything about cut-out scuppers in the past.  Hurry up and launch so we can see how they work.  I could go fer a set on 113.

You, sir, have a fine eye for lines.  I'm talkin' about your windscreen.  I knew you had something cool up your sleeve from your last email.  Although, I thought it would be mostly polycarbonate, kinda like the Halberg-Rassey.  I do like your idea better on a boat this size.  The way I figure, you've got the hard part out of the way.  Now it's just some simple bows and misc. hardware.  Yeah, right.  Who am I kidding?  Nothing seems to be 'simple' with Ebb.  

Is your old sliding hatch the removable seahood now?  Do you have plans for a panel type that attaches to the 'rails'?

Galley.  I remember when you replied to one of my postings with, "welcome to the how am I gonna fit it all in here club."  Beats me!  Living aboard a 26 footer is definitely a singles kinda thing.  Galley or crew, galley or crew, galley or crew....I guess the key is to make use of every square inch of boat.  Deck, cabin top, fore deck, c-pit, everything.  I'm already looking for a 40 footer that will still be too small.  But, at least then you can go to oposite ends of the boat to blow off steam :D

The paint is a minor PIA.  Don't even factor that in.  

How about a rigging update.  Any new thoughts on that can of worms?

Who loves ya, Baby.  

Tony G

I like the dinette idea....along with the rest.Can't waite for the launch party. Your 1st sail is going to be sweet.

Tony, I need some ideas to cadge.
How's YOUR interior coming? :cool:

Howzit goin Tony?
The Round the World Volvo race is over.  They did a film recap of those rockets leaving wakes with rooster tails, decks awash with green water, and white guys bundled up like penguins in goretex.  I figure a hydrodynamic windscreen is the way to go.  Hey, as long as  coamers are coming aboard from the front!

Those scuppers are really pieces cut from a 1/4" xmatt layup around a wood form wrapped in mylar, like a strudel.  Then the molded toe rail is sawzalled where you think they should be, the pieces (breadsliced at a slant for a yotsey look) laid in place, glued in, and then trimmed down to the profile of the rail.  With some backup matt underneath they should work in a toerail that has not been filled in like 338.  I glued them in as if the deck was there.   That is the thickness of the slices was left above deck level so that water CANNOT drip down the openings onto the topsides.  Dribbles should be taken care by the factory deck scupper.

In laying out the interior, you're correct, it IS with singlehanding in the forefront - but forever hopeful  the  double bunk convertable will get  thoroly exercised.

Volvo hood

Mae West said it,
Too much of a good thing is wonderful.

Ebb

sorry to be late joining the choir here. Nice toe rail, and I really like the shape of your hard dodger. do you have a sketch of the complete design with the bows & canvas? just curious...

cheers,
Bill

Thanks Bill,
Naw, I started with a think piece.  An arc that is slightly flattened in the front.  When I had the arc idea more or less set I made two out of stacked plywood pieces.  I knew I had to have the same exact arch because if they are different you put a twist in the finished surface.  And a somewhat DEarched  front because I knew I had to work in a flat hatch.  The plywood arcs were fitted together and carved to fit the separate frp lamination going over the companionway.  Struts were then permanently put in to join the two and 1/4" masonite cut to fit.  I use Office Depot (or is it Staples?) white posterboard.   Use a lot of it to make full size patterns.

After the layup I had to disassemble (destroy) the mold form.

I kept the windscreen as low as I thought practical.  I don't know yet if I really lucked out on the glass hatch for the front.  It just fits - in theory.  Maybe I'll give the factory a call, right now!

It's pretty subjective.  I wanted a strong green water hard dodger.  Windscreen and pram hood is a compromise.  A low entry dodger was out of the question.  I'm assuming a good soft dodger maker will be able to solve the rest of it.

Thanks Bill,
Naw, I started with a think piece.  An arc that is slightly flattened in the front.  When I had the arc idea more or less set I made two out of stacked and grabber screwed plywood pieces.  I knew I had to have the same exact arch because if they are different you put a twist in the finished surface.  And a somewhat DEarched  front because I knew I had to work in a flat hatch.  The plywood arcs were tacked together and carved to fit the separate frp lamination going over the companionway.  And carved to come more or less to a point at the end of the cabin.  Struts were then permanently put in to join the two and 1/4" masonite cut to fit.  I use Office Depot (or is it Staples?) white posterboard.   Use a lot of it to make full size patterns.

After the layup I had to disassemble (destroy) the mold form.  To keep the epoxy from sticking to the wrong stuff I use mylar film, twoside carpet tape, painter's film and saran-wrap (both polyethylene.)

I kept the windscreen as low as I thought practical.  And aesthetic.  It still looks huge to me!  I don't know yet if I really lucked out on the glass hatch for the front.  It just fits - in theory.  Maybe I'll give the factory a call, right now!  They said they make the hatches on order!

It's pretty subjective.  I wanted a strong green water hard dodger.  Windscreen and pram hood is a compromise.  A low entry dodger was out of the question.  I'm assuming a good soft dodger maker will be able to solve the folding part of it.

As I took my trailer measurements off of EBB's boat, I could not help drooling over the nice toerail and the smooth 'brand new' feel of the decks...

If I make it back to the SF Bay area soon I want to be Ebb's apprentice. I could use some of those skills on C155. Too bad I did not know about the nice work going on there at the time!

Thanks Rico.
If I were young again and knew what I really wanted to do (which I didn't),  and had some guts (which I didn't) I would find a master shipbuilder and make myself indispensible.  Masters know how do do things quick.  Masters know every trick and jig.  Masters know the 'dance'.

338 shows what a certain amount of enthusiasm can do, and endless hours reinventing the wheel.  Masters don't make mistakes.  When they do, they know how to go seamlessly on to the next mistake.   Amateurs know how to screw things up, sometimes pretty royally.  And amateurs often lack persistence.

Appologize for no pics.  Just by way of a report.
The estate shop (where I wirk) has a $4000 set of Festools built around the biggest vacuum they make.  The System, and it is a System with a cap, is an installer' /remodeler's dream.  Remodeling in an upscale house usually means removing all the furniture and taping/drapping plastic on everything.
You can trundel this vac  and a stack of modular boxes containing your selection of tools (saw, sander, router) all clipped together into any room, plug in, open the boxes and start right in.  Well, it's almost that good.

There is a kind of annoying germanic precision and hardness and hardedge personality to this extremely expensive set of tools.  There is  no funky to this grey and green clip and formfit tower of power.  All tools have the dust and chips sucked up right thru the tool.  Hardly any of it gets away.  The sander I used you grip by the barrel - I can't get my mit around it, what do smaller hands do?  "Ve vill hav NO Komplaints!"  I really worked the tool - NO heat buildup.  Vac going for hours - NO heat buildup.  There's a huge bag in the vac - time to change it, finally?
NO complaints from the fine dust and glass.  Opened up the vac to check the bag - the inside of the vac is compleatly clean,  the huge bag doesn't need emptying yet!

Took the vac and one of the 5" sanders, the most powerful, but not the 6" that Jamestown and everybody else has been 'discounting' recently down to the boat and went to work without a mask INSIDE.  What a joy!

No clean up! 5 minutes with the Makita grinder the dust is in every nook and cranny of the boat,  and in the hair, up the sleeves, between yer toes, down the back.

It was difficult and time consuming but I used 24 and 40 grits disks to remove the gelcoat on the decks adjacent to the coamings.  (Coamings removed.)  This is where I had the epoxy fail on me.  That's personal!  So I took it down to the green.  Actually blue, the mysterious blue first coat Pearson sprayed on some of the gelcoat befor they glassed.    This narrow alleyway of deck has a 'reverse camber' in it, a sunken look, that's why I decided to level it - this is also where there is no balsa core.  From the end of the cabin back is 'solid.'

Seems radical removing the gelcoat rather than trusting some dewaxing solvent.  But I don't yet know what the problem is? Why didn't the first attempt to level the deck stick anywhere?  Wax IN the gelcoat?
I'll do a small test today.

The side decks are looking great, up to snuff, and almost a fair line.  It's amazing how unlevel the fore and aft run of the deck is.  And how different the two sides are in fair.

I've decided against the hard dodger windscreen.  Too heavy.  I need expertise in much lighter building tech.

In that regard, I spent a day making a paper and cardboard scale model of a foredeck dinghy/pram for the Ariel.  The idea is that the transom will partially be cut away and fit over the trunk of the Ariel just forward of the mast.  That gives this 6 1/2' pram a wide stern indeed.  And a nearly 5' beam!  But looking at the model from different angles, it does have a nice sheer and nice curvey wales,  has moderate rocker and a nice curvey multichine deadrise.  Greenwater over the bow friendly upsidedown. A canyon rightsideup.  Bet it'd hold a baby elephant, but will it row, will it sail, will it motor?

See now about putting together a fullsize doorskin on even 1/4" luan model.
I know it's a lot of work, but I could do it right in the house if I can keep the landlady at bay....

Like to see how a fullscale model looks in its place on the boat, it may be worth the effort.

And I'm curious about self-rescue aspects that a hard dinghy has going for it.  Flotation can easily be worked in on a dinghy this wide.  Yeah, Right!  But can it float fully flooded with a man in it???  No.  Yet I'd like to check it out in the estate pool here.  Because the ultimate self-rescue aspect is whether you can climb into it from the water.  That means putting 250# plus on the stern or a side and not pull the 60# dinghy under!!!  Put that in your hat!:eek:

QuoteI've decided against the hard dodger windscreen. Too heavy. I need expertise in much lighter building tech.

QuoteSorry to hear this Ebb, I thought the one you had worked up was very nice looking.  I wish you well in your dingy building, I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

How about cutting bigger holes in the dodger for windows

http://www.wavestopper.net/

SeePete, Craig,
I like the Wavestopper itself.  
It looks unaffordable taken together with all the other deck tubes I'm thinking about.  Notice that they now have an even lighter model that you can't stand on!  Probably cost more too!    
Unless it's all fabric and tubes,  you should be able to get on it, if you must.  And greenwater too has to get on it, and off without damage, if it must.  I would just assume that a pramhood dodger would  get swept away if it came to down to that.  That was the primary concept.  To have an impervious window wall protecting the companionway.  If everything else got carried away one could always rig something over the hole if the windscreen part stayed put.

But a hard dodger growing out of the trunk would have to be made strong enough to take nearly anything. My method created an item too heavy  in any arena.  Really.  I like its shape, but the damn structure bothers me.  I'll consult with a dodgermaker when it comes time to see if it can be cut WAY BACK, as you suggest, and maybe have the fabric and vinyl fitted around it.  I wanted solid 3/8" wave stopper lexan lights in it.  Which have their own weight to add.  Thanks guys!
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
Yves Gelinas (Cape Horn wind vane) on his Alberg30 JeanduSud had an inflatable dodger frame.  Was nearly 24 years ago he did his Circumnavigation.
Yet this sailer/inventer hasn't got a flexible dodger on the market.  There's a lot to like about the idea!
Hypalon fabric has the best reputation for lasting a long time in extreme conditions.  My google searching brings up NOT A SINGLE do-it-yourself inflatable site.  The rubber glues have evil solvents in them.  The tech side keeps mutating.  But wouldn't you think there would be a source for materials like there is for plastics and paints?
I guess Ives must have used bike tire tubes or something?
Nothing's easy, but it sure is a lot of fun.:D

Ebbster -

I've compiled the materials for a Yves-type collapsible frame. Yves used fire hose for his tubing, with PVC fittings for the end caps, ring clamps and glue to attach the caps, and a bicycle/car tube nipple as the inflater. Nothing too esoteric, the man was on a tight budget (aren't we all? :rolleyes: ).

AFA the fore-house pram - I've long though to try making a dink using pink/blue foam (in lieu of the plywood which is in most of them), laminating it just like a surfboard once the foam was in the needed shape. Surfboards are pretty tough even with their relatively thin skins (1-2 layers of 4 or 6 oz glass), just avoid running them right into rocks - same as you would with a ply dink or an inflatable. Dings can be fixed. It'd be much lighter, and floatier.

If you haven't seen a good surfboard laminator at work, you should arrange a visit to a nearby factory and see how they do it. A 'pro' can get a board glassed to within I'd bet 15% or better of the efficiency of vacuum bagging. Waaay less of a hassle than vacuum-bagging, as did the fellow with that neat little boat.

Grist for your mental mill... :D

hey Kurt,
I've ad nauseumed near every stitch and glue, tack and tape site on the www, and gained a little insight on a lighter style of shell making.  It looks like you need some moves - generally it's straight forward if you work neat and have a little experience with the steps.  I may give it a whirl on the house-pram, using 3/16" meranti and 6 oz? woven glass inside and out.  This is a big little pram and we'll have to fight to keep it light.  The trial model will be 1/4" luan from H.D. which is actually 3/16".

Surfers have a simple solid structure to work on, while kyackers are skin.  I'd like to look in on a master on that! (If you have more than a vague interest in the process, check out OneOceanKayakdotcom, incredible!)  Have not seen a foamsheet canoe/kyack yet.  For weight control, once the fabric is wetted, you can carefully squeegy off excess epoxy - one guy said - almost as good as vacuum.  Dynel and matt could not be used.
But foam is a way to go.  One site reminded us that  added unsinkables should be above the waterline.  (Some water in the bottom of a dinghy might be a good stability thing.  Burden boards (added weight) be good to design in.  
A solid ply bottom sounds right to me, with composite foam sides, all composite foam interior, seats and closed off spaces.  But the weight will add up fast.
You can get foam composite board already made up.  But it is way too stiff to be used when you need to bend it.  Unless you have an oven it which to soften it.  Too tech for me.
With a curvey pram you'd have to use sliced foam and the vacuum method to drive the epoxy into every small space.  The result would be fantastic, but probably the result not lighter than a shell boat.
________________________________________________________________________________________________

Did have a mental about the flooding scenario of a self-rescue dinghy.  
That is: a shaped nylon tarp could be fitted loosely into the interior of the boat, attached around the inwale.  You would with a crisscrossed strap or two, yank up on this membrane to spill the water from the dinghy.  You wouldn't need to have this in place all the time - it might be good to have it rigged in its waiting rescue mode when the dinghy is stowed on deck.  The tarp wouldn't have to waterproof the interior, it could be removable for normal tendering, or it could become a tent in rescue mode still attached to the wales.  The idea really is to lift the tarp and pull a good amount of water out to get the dinghy habitable.:rolleyes:

Well, OK, good beginning.  Let's do make the water-out tarp the dinghy's tent and add some pumpup tubes for ribs to keep it up, and let's include a valve with which we can collect rain water, but of course...  Make it so!

Little late posting these photos taken in September at the last InterClub race.  First photos are of the total assembly, followed by photos of each end.

The ends are more interesting . . .

OK, now Ebb can explain . . . :)

Ebb raises the bar* of 'Ariel restoration' once again...

*(spar?)

Holy Shmokey, that thang looks niiice...

Details, please - section info of that extrusion if possible, and suggested retail?

Looks like we are only seeing the underside of yon boom. Will ye be using  a loose-footed main, Ebb, or is there a slot for a bolt rope on the other side?

[QUOTELooks like we are only seeing the underside of yon boom . . .[/QUOTE]

The second photo in the first post does show the top of the boom. ;)

That it does, Bill, upon further investigation. :) Thx for pointing that out..

Doesn't look like there is a slot in there...

Old boom dimensions are
3 1/2" X 2 3/8" weighing approx 16 1/2#
New boom dimensions are
4 7/16" X 2 7/8" weighing in at 22 1/2#*

The new boom is a single extrusion with a groove on top, 3 incised reference lines.  One on the bottom and one at 90 on each side.  Makes putting on eyes, fairleads, cleats a breeze (eg: lazy jacks.)  The scantlings of the new boom  are a result of my being uncomfortable with the skinny old boom  used for loosefoot and hard vang attachment.  Not that anything untoward to old booms with modern alterations has happened so far as I know.  I feel some redundancy is needed for cruising.  There's a price in weight for that,  but I feel now the new boom matches the mast in proportional strength, and aesthetics.

The boom is attached with a normal gooseneck fitting (not in pic) to the mast.  The long oblique cutout has jammers that can be used for at mast reefing - or reef lines can be led down to the base (with the jam cleats deactivated) and led aft on the cabin top. (#264 top)

The outboard end with the smaller cutout has the clew line in the center sheeve of three with reefing lines entering the boom on either side.  The reefing lines are deadended with simple loops around the spar.  They would go up to cringles on the leech, down to sheeves in the end of the boom, then forward inside to exit at the mast.  I don't know what the purchase is on the internal clew cable.  How one pulls maintenance on the internal block system remains to be seen. (264 lower)

If I wanted to lead the luffcringle lines aft that could be done along with the leech reef lines. (Along with the 'continuous reef line' that gathers the flap of the sail and bundles it.) Not sure if that is a good idea to run it all back on the cabintop anyway as it's probably better to use hooks on the gooseneck or something else like small tackles?`  Hope to find out one-o-these-days.  Depends on what the conditions are and what control the helm has while shortening sail.  Cruisers might want to have the trisail ready at the mast and that's another set of lines that may not go to the cockpit.

Exceptionally made spar with fantastic 'coin stack' aluminum welding on the inserts.  Has a soft browngold flushed annodised silver metallic finish.   It's really beautyful!  The choice of finish was that or no finish to allow painting. Painting over new annodize is a complicated process and screws up the annodize.  When I get to painting the mast have to try to get something close to the boom finish.  It reminds me of clear coat powder-coatings.  My old Dodge truck has failing clearcoat over "Driftwood" that changes from a warm silvery brown in the sun to a cool grey in the shade or when its overcast.

The 2006 cost from Ballenger Spars in Watsonville was under $900.  I was the transport.  At the moment there seems to be no reason why one could not carry the original boom along as a spare or for wing-and-wing, and with the spinnaker pole, be able to rig legs too for the boat (see Baldwin's Atom) when needed at the ends of the earth.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________
*on a ten dollar Sunbeam scale

I am soooo jealous

By the way, you might want to put some teff gel where the stainless cotter pin goes through the aluminum gooseneck. Mine froze up after only eight months. Had to cut it with a hack saw and drill it out

C'pete,
There's an island out there in the Pacific named MILLIWAYS where it's always Saturday afternoon and there's  always a nice cool breeze.*  
Next to a barefoot beach bar called Ursa Minor Beta there's an annex which actually is a well stocked marine store with perpetual 60's prices on everything.  
Marvin's there of course, as always, but you'll probably find some of your best friends and  old acquaintances getting some gear or having a beer.  Brion Toss,

>google< Brion Toss Yacht Riggers Fairleads Newsletter
//www.briontoss.com/education/archive/miscjan04.htm

he might be around too having some turnbuckles tightened - or flaking a schooner's chain bucket. Anyway, since he's here, take a look at his  ultimate multi-pocket traveling vest**, which you should fill up while you are on the island.  
Where ever you voyage in this universe, you'll have the right tool to get you out of trouble.  
And one of them, as C'pete reminds us, is Tefgel - keep it in the same pocket as your pink pearl.:D

Happy solstice you old f... salts!
________________________________________________
*apologies to Douglas Noel Adams.
**might be the Orvis' 17 velcro, 12 zipper, 2 open - 31 pocket vest for $89!

ebb:There comes a time when an object is taken beyond functional form or craft, where form and function become secondary, and the object enters into something that is recognized by most as art. Your ideas and hard work have created, in my opinion, a wonderful work of art. I have gotten a lot of pleasure and a surprize or two following your progress. Well done. I can't wait to see the final form that your boat will take. More photographs please.

oh boy....

you know, I've been up in the palms
dropping coconuts
to lovely Fayaway,  who doesn't
seem to have aged a day...

we must return to the boat
and get the pudding
started again.:o

'Some people say,"How can you live without knowing?"  I do not know what

they mean.  I always live without knowing.  That is easy.  How you get to

know is what I want to know.   R Feynman (roofwiz 74)'  

[off a roofing forum:) ]

Ebb...nothing to do with sailing, yet EVERYTHING to do with sailing.....I'm catching up on my 'Thoreau'......gotta luv the guy.Hits home in SO many ways!! Gotta get out here Buddy !!   it truly is 'life on Walden'..simle-simple-simple

Frank,
Yer absolutely correct.  Feynman was a latter day Thoreau.  But also a bongo player!

Here's a coupla quotes:

"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts."

"If we will only allow that, as we progress, we remain unsure, we will leave opportunities for alternatives.
We will not become enthusiastic for the fact, the knowledge, the absolute
truth of the day, but remain always uncertain...
In order to make progress, one must leave the door to the unknown ajar."

And here's one on being true to yerself:
(On pseudoscience) "...There is one feature I notice that is generally missing in 'cargo cult science'...
It is a kind of scientific integrity, a principle of scientific thought that corresponds to a kind of utter honesty - a kind of leaning over backwards...
For example, if you are doing an experiment, you should report everything that you think might make it invalid
 - not only what you think is right about it...
Details that could throw doubt on your interpretation must be given,
if you know them."
__________________________________________________________________________________________________
Not comparing.  Just that these two share certain attributes and genius.

"When a man has reduced a fact of his imagination to be a fact of his understanding,
I foresee that all men will at length establish their lives on that basis."  Thoreau

Ken Kifer (which see) says this of T. - some of which is true for Feynman.
"Thoreau does not hesitate to use metaphores, allusions, understatement, hyperbole, personification, irony, satire, metonymy, synecoche, and oxymorons - and he can shift from a scientific to a transcendental point of view in mid-sentence. ...
A Thoreauvian lifestyle is almost exactly the opposite of the consumer treadmill that most people find themselves running on today. ...  
If you wish a boring and conventional life, devoting your days to working for someone else, your nights watching TV, your weekends to cutting grass, and your cash to purchasing one consumer product after another,  THOREAU IS NOT FOR YOU. ...."
________________________________________________________________________________________________-
yes, somehow Frank, I believe you have crawled out of the dragon's mouth!:p

"Some circumstantial evidence is very strong, as when you find a trout in the milk"- Thoreau. Yes, maybe another class of red wine and I'll understand something about what he was talking about..maybe not, after all this small room is so very crowded and I'm all so perfectly alone.:confused:

Gifted people can often be plain obnoxious.
Because they're special we give em  a little extra slack.
We should more likely be tightening a noose around their necks.

Ebb.Hope all is well in your life.Boat update please. Pictures Ebb...we need pictures ;-)

Thanks Frank!
Been sidetracked, and my work ethic is not near yours, my friend.
Also, I have offended the admiral here.  Don't know what, but that's how it is.

In two thousand my daughter and I visited Danmark.  Notable in that we had not done anything like this befor.  We decided to void the relatives trap so that things Danish were not family-filtered.  We stayed in relatively cheap hotels, like the Saga Hotel in Copenhagen's redlight district and at bare bones squeekykleen no privacy hostels.  We rented a sedan and did the Viking ships, ironage Viking camps, old market towns, and slots all round the islands of Danmark.

Inside Valdemir's Slot we found the usual portraits of sourfaced, overdressed humans in ornate frames, extreme candelabras, and uncomfortable furniture.  I remember my mother saying to me that when she was a schoolgirl she had to memorize endless battles of northern european history.  Not doubt she knew Admiral Valdemir's decisive defeat of the Swedes (in what century I did not record), that rewarded him with a Slot and handsome estate and a bunch of gold Krona.

As we climbed into the upper reaches of the castle it became evident that the slot was actually a huge timberframe barn with a 4 story veneer of fancy stonework and masonry outside.
The fourth floor was a vaulted vestry of oversized fitted baulks, handhewn rafters, massive purlines and cleargrain pine plank floors.  It was cram packed with stuffed animals.  Every animal and bird from every continent looking up/out/down at us.  A deathly silent taxidermy zoo.

Who would have thought the famous maritime hero's pastime was filling the slot's shiplike attic with a representative of every animal on the planet?  Maybe there was no room for an elephant or rhino, but I can't remember,  there were wild cats and crocs and polar bear, maybe a camel.
I became depressed.  
Was it this bizzare mausoleum of too many bodies in a country manor?  
But his grateful king was but a king of a very modest country.  
And the admiral's estate was quite modest with an equally modest slot...

I went thru the narrow ladyrinths of  glass-eyed beasties and glass cases a second time...
YES, there wasn't a single pair of a single specimen.  
Only one of each!

The admiral was a half-arsed noah hiding away a neurotic  collection of trophies in his modest Danish attic.  He had counted  space for only  one  each!  Lonely, even in death, one each.  I wondered if he had shot and collected  one sex of each beast,  males only,  him being a military man...  
I shot a couple photos as I left, one of Larus Minutas, a tiny, tidy, well proportioned Little Gull.  Black hooded, beige grey wings, white bodied, red legged and amber billed.  Smallest gull in the world.  Sweet.  Could this one specimen represent the one and only Danish wild creature in the collection - apart from a fox, a hare, and a partridge?  
I vowed that one day I would memorialize a mate for this particular little creature...

Ariel # 338 (nee Sun Quest) today in the mail received  her Coast Guard documentation and with an appropriate de-naming/re-naming ceremony (to come) will hence forth be known as

LITTLE GULL
:D
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
Correction:  Valdemars Slot is a 2000 acre semi-private estate, the largest in Denamrk (which is the 'size of Maryland').  The castle is a 90,000ft2 manor house with 22' ceilings on the first floor, 18' ceilings on the second, and the equally proportioned bi-level attic (something I forgot, along with tons of other stuff!).  It was built in the 17th century by Christian IV for his son Prince Valdemar, who died soon thereafter.  When Admiral Niels Juel won his huge sea battle against the Swedes in 1677, his 'bonus' was the estate.  Today, it is a major tourist attraction, you pay to visit, it has a coffee shop and the Admiral's descendants - 10 generations later - still keep it dusted without monetary help from the Danish Gov't.  (Who's to say that some of the interim generations were not big game hunters as well, and contributed to the bodies in the attic?)  The slot is equally an attraction for a fabulous snuff box with a miniature painting of a couple having sex on its lid.  Postcards available.  And a museum of yacht models and nautical memorabilia we completely missed!

Quote from: ebb;15531Ariel # 338 (nee Sun Quest) today in the mail received  her Coast Guard documentation and with an appropriate de-naming/re-naming ceremony (to come) will hence forth be known as LITTLE GULL

The association records are revised to reflect her new name . . .

Ebb, very nice name and so appropriate!  Cheers to Little Gull! Looking forward to her re-launch...

Ebb

That's a fine name. The de/renaming ceremony sounds like it may be quite a shindig.

cheers,
bill

Thanks, guys!
One of these days.........

A quick Google of Ebb's namesake yields this: Larus Minutus (http://www.birdinfo.com/A_Images_L/LittleGull_0001.html)

No wonder bird names are so popular with sailboats. Beautiful.

Hey mon......   N  I  C  E!

Has to be an Alberg design.;)

Little Gull?? Maybe I should name mine "Damn Pidgeon" for the bird in the paint booth during primer, to say he was high is an understament, but he's gone now, yesterday before topcoat he was flightless in the booth, I ensured he didnt screw up topcat as he/she did the primer.

Sorry for the hijack

Well done ebb, a fitting name for a fine boat. Saved from extinction

Have to get over to Danmark one of these days

http://www.valdemarslot.dk/index.php?page=55

Hey BonnieJean!   whot hijack?

C'pete,
Verry Danish, advertising your big slot with postagestamp sized views. Oh so genteel and modest.  On the site's menubar, I see there are no Activities listed, and there is also no News.  What's not happnin, dude.  In the Cafe'  you can buy a Pretzel - or a Hotdog or some Pizza - WOW.  Wonder who the tourists are?  Danes? Japanese? Croatians?  

Guess my dought and me saw the "big game" mausoleum befor they spiffed it up.  Being a kingdom the size of Maryland would make the proportionate banging of  Little Gull a rilly appropriate event there. Guess  the little seagull got nabbed in an early tourist trap.

I won't go to Danmark again unless I am with somebody very Danish (I'm only danish in name, I'm a redneck from Long Island), who could show me around.    Might go to Norway.  But if I was going anywhere scandanavian, I'd visit the Faroes, Iceland and Greenland.  Check out  Faroese puffin fricassee - and their pilotwhale pudding.  Definitely get over to Greenland befor it melts away.

But, Pete, you have an eye for the ridiculous, a better eye for the funny and absurd than anybody I've seen.  You'd have a field day in scandanavia.  Hope I get invited  to the slide show after your trip.

As of 10 May, 2007, Ariel 205 became FORMERLY known as Sirocco.  She is now S/V Elii Henry, hailing port, Kailua, HI.  Her new name went on on Memorial Day and her US registration number will be on in a couple of days.

Well,   A W L  R I G H T !:D
Elii - with two 'i's ?
Who be Elii Henry, joe?

Where you putting her name.... stern or bow?

Where you going to "permanently affix" your 3" letters and numbers?

PIX!!!!!  on the Gallery pages!

Well Ebb, Elii be a contraction of my parents' initials, Henry is what I call my dog, whose proper full name is King Henry of Orange.  The lettering she has on her outside now is temporary vinyl white block stick on letters and is on each side at the aft end.  After she is painted in her new color which will happen when time and money permit, the letters will be in a much nicer font, and will be emerald green and will be in the same place.  She is in the middle of a major remodel right now which is progressing very slowly because she is staying in the water ( I sail alot)  until the moment that I can do no more without hauling her.  After she is hauled, she will get bulwarks, new stanchions and lifelines, paintjob, and new standing rigging and will have her outboard well built into the lazarette as she is being converted from inboard to outboard.  I want the space inside for water tanks and storage.

Pictures are required!

Indeed! How dare you post such a "wordy" reply about restoration and such w/out pictures! I think the forum administrator should give you a formal reprimand! ...and not even a picture of your four footed namesake to boot.  Shame shame... :p

Well, Ebb and MBD, would one of you fine sailors like to come fish my camera out of the lake?  I'll supply the beer but you're on your own for air.  The camera should be quite fine as it is in a very strong Ziploc brand freezer bag.  The problem is that the water is about 85 feet at that particular spot in the lake.  But I will continue to work on pics and camera retrieval.
:)

Doh! Perhaps next time you should add some positive flotation to your waterproof bag.  Sorry about the camera!

Actually, I'm going to put the neckstrap on it as soon as I retrieve it.

Now Ebb....I've been looking to see if any new pics are posted of your good ship.....none ! We need updates and pics Ebb....updates and pics !!!!!!!;)

I got a chance last week to see Little Gull in person.

and I must say words can not do her justice, the best I can do is..

Absolutely stunning!

Thanks Ebb

Oh come on!  All you association members over there on the left coast, and not one digital camera amongst the lot of you???

Didgital what?  We ain't got no stinkun........
Actually I have a Canon Powershot to use now, but I'm still trying to figure out how to wind it up?

Wonderful meeting Tim, and he's OK with Indian cuisine. Continental chap.  He's the guy that scored 'Che' from Adam.
Not sure what he's up to, but he may be wanting to do some custom on her.
Talking bout some serious trailer cruising.

Tim came by to pickup up Little Gull's tiller fitting to compare with Che's which is in the water and sailing.  When he brought it back he said he was glad he compared the two.

Seems the rudderhead on his shaft is wider.  It looks  similar, but obviously is a different pattern.  
Makes me wonder if Che is unique and has had a DFO change over, or if Pearson changed the pattern sometimes on Ariels and Commanders?  As Admiral Bill points out, there were/are a number of 1" shafts out there in different class boats.

For instance: Tritons, both East Coast and West Coast, being larger and heavier may have had beefier rudder fittings.  One of them may have graduated to Che.  Or half of one of them.  Che's problem is, as we have seen  in Tim's post, that the tiller half of the fitting - the tillerhead - is missing.

A strong feature of the rudder fitting common to the Ariel (I assume) is that the hinged pieces are essentially a tight machined fit, which cancels play in the parts.  
The Edson nickel plated backup I have is much sloppier than the old Pearson clunker - even after four decades of continual use and abuse.  From that standpoint alone, even though the still available Edson 1" rudder fitting is WAY prettier, I would not recommend it as an upgrade or substitute for the A/C.
Imco as usual.

I'm starting a collection so we can purchase a community digital camera for this forum's members.  We will mail it to those we feel are not posting enough pictures.  Included will be a detailed description explaining how to use it and what constitutes a "good shot".  When we are satisfied with the amount of pictures taken and posted, you will be notified as to who to send the camera to next.  Who's with me? :D

It was a great day for a photo shoot at the San Rafael Yacht Harbor – Sunny with temps in the low 70's.  Ebb had the "building" housing the Little Gull open when we arrived.  Here's a challenge; find the boat in this view . . .:confused:

It's been some time since we last visited Little Gull, and although there is progress, it's more subtle than before.  The "big" visual change is the terrific topsides paint job.  The finish is so mirror like that the ground clutter is reflected in the transom.  Multiple coats were sprayed on to build up the finish, to the point that you can feel a significant ridge between the topside white and the water line bronze.

Here's the water line taped onto the hull using the "paint can and string" method.  The bits of blue tape represent original lines and, well Ebb will need to explain.

Moving to the cockpit . . . Here's Ebb's latest creation – a "Stand Up Tiller."  With all that arc, it will be possible to steer while standing without raising the tiller handle.  :cool:

Here's another project.  Enlarging the coamings to provide better back support (and less water in the cockpit).  This project is still in the engineering phase and the coaming displayed is actually a piece of hardwood veneer being used for visual reference.  The coaming height at the forward (cabin) end is abut four inches higher than the original.

Next up (literally) is the famous Bboorreeggaarrdd Dodger.  Actually, it's more like the windshield system on a '57 Oldsmobile convertible!  And, about as tough, as this very heavy duty structure will be bolted to the cabin for added strength.  

From the back side, you can see the location for the steering compass below the center lite (which will open for added ventilation). All the openings will be filled with Lexan lites.

[Note too, the sea hood covering the main hatch, making for added protection from blue water waves.]

Speaking of port lights,  Ebb experimented with shaping Lexan using his kitchen oven.  From a distance, the results appear acceptable.  Close up, however, you notice a few odd wiggles in the middle and some crazing at the end where the oven's fan was blowing on the material.  Ebb has since found someone to create the proper curves . . . :o

Work below on Little Gull is plagued by choosing between too many good ideas:eek:  At this point, the plan is to have a small dinning table on the starboard side, along with various cabinets, seating and whatever . . .

Oh yes, and the chrome rings up forward are the access to the tanks.

Here's the new electrical panel . . . :eek:

Here is Ebb's 20 pound aluminum bow sprit.  Unfortunately, the photo is limited by the bucket of clamps, which is balancing the sprit to the deck, and the bow being up against the fence in front of the "boat house."

As we were preparing to leave for lunch, Ebb got a call from the plantation and had to zip back to the "office."  

Before he ran, we extracted a commitment that he would deliver more progress more sooner than his latest performance.  His fans are waiting . . . ;)

As usual...the 'Ebb-myster' delivers. Combo of designer-craftsman-engineer-dreamer and poet.Looks great!! Keep at it...and not so long between pics;)

Outstanding photo work Bill, and of course Ebb it goes without saying you are an inspiration.

This is a fun project to keep tabs on.  Keep it up Ebb!

Beautiful work Ebb!
 
  That dodger is gonna be one strong piece of gear!  I think the compass is going to be a joy to use there, I was musing about just that placement.... but could not visualize it... you sure did.  
 
  I think the higher combing boards will work nicely.  They would look out of proportion on my boat, but as I picture Little Gull's overall profile I think they will balance nicely... and sure be nice for leaning against.
 
  Once again, first rate stuff going on... I too look forward to seeing the next update.

SAW-WEEET!  Damn! I'll trade right now.  Personaly, I can not wait to see a full exterior shot of Little Gull.  Everything is finally starting to mesh and tie together and all the nuggets Ebb has given us in words over time are shinning bright.  

Like for instance, the topsides...hubba-hubba.  The high riding bottom paint and raised boot stripe...:D  

And the coamings.  I know that's a touchy subject for some folks out there.  But I'll side with Tim Lackey there, (paraphrasing here) do what you feel will make the boat better serve your needs without compromising safety/integrity.  Offshore sailors repeatedly state a safe, dry cockpit is a must.  I think Ebb's taller coamings and outboard hutch will do just that.

That windscreen is the scource of a lot of envy in this camp!  It fits.  I mean it really fits.  Great lines, great shape, great concept.  Hey Ebb, how did you get the recess cut in for the Lexan?  The compass brace?  Art.  There, I said it!  As fine a line as I have seen on any boat.

Cant wait to see the finished bow sprit.  Are the anchors going to hang there?  Attachment for a cruising geniker?  Similar shape for the bow pulpit?

Really like what we can see of the interior so far.  That is the only fall back of these boats, you just have more ideas than room.  Can't possibly fit them all in or blend them all together.  But, you know how I feel about curves!:cool:

Dig the work, Ebb.  As usual, you inspire and awe me with your craftsmanship.  I sincerely look forward to the day I may be fortunate enough to meet you on the water.  Hats off to you.

Have a archaeologist/writer daughter somewhere on the planet.
But you guys is family.

"Subtle progress."  Bill is being nice,  I've been remiss, or missing at the boat.  Maybe like C'Pete I really want to 'only work on the boat in April and May.'

310)  Following faint remnants of what looked like  an old factory incised line led to this apparent anomaly evident in Bill's shots.  
What line it is/was
certainly was the last line up  I could find  on both sides of the hull - but it had no sheer or bend in it that I could see.  
And therefore I assumed it was NOT the top of the boot.  I mean would the factory INCISE the boot stripe on a boat?
After this horse had left the barn (Awlgripping the topsides) I went back to Alberg's drawing board (pg 144 Manual)
The long blue tape delineates a compromise waterline.  It leaves the extraordinary  width in the bow between the bottom of the topsides I chose and the apparent new raised waterline.  What a shock!  
(338's bronze bottom is not intended to leach copper - at least I hope not!  I added copper powder to a number of epoxy barrier coats and while it may help deter growths the intent is now  to paint on regular anti-foul before launch.  I have planned that the boot-top was to be painted on the bronze barrier.)  
The short tape tics on the centertline show the 'designed line' and the 'raised waterline.' The long tape is my 'adjusted compromise' line.  Load line?  Anomalies are unsolvable problems.
My brain is tired of figuring out what the hell is going on with these waterline!

311)  3rd shot of series shows the huge sweep of the boot-top as it meets the CloudWhite topsides. Seven inch kick to the boot! The curvey sweep is a trick of perspective.  The line actually is eyeball straight - and that was the reason I choose to accept it as a water line.  Assume is the mother of all f...ups.  
Note the two tape-tics again: the lower one is Alberg, next up the original bottom of his drawn boot-top.  On top of that would be the master's boot-top sweep.  The official width of this boot stripe changes on different renditions in the Manual.  But the widest stripe may be on the sail plan (pg 146) - and the 'Freeboard' drawing of the Commander (pg 149b)  The present owner's compromise waterline is the long tape.  What color for this boot?  I'm thinking cloud white!

312) Coamings. We have progressed beyond this stage .  The mahogany has been surfaced out of rough-sawn stock, and  accurate pine patterns created to transfer lines to the new coamings.  
Blue tape on port coaming block is a lower-to line.  
The cabin sides took a bit of filling/fairing to get them FLAT for the taller blocks as the pint-sized blocks cinched up on the hollow cabin sides caused them to be considerably caved inward.  Hand holding the original doorskin 'try' pattern for Bill to show you what the new coamings might look like.  Pretty tall, huh!

314)  This hatch garage is meant to be removable while the dodger remains in place.  Toyed with the idea of having a dorade inspired vent in front of where the sliding hatch stops inside.  Center hole under the hood could enter the  cabin with air supplied by cowls mounted directly on the hood near the lower corners.
2nd shot shows a molded overlap that will be glued to the hood.  Not intended to be caulked, but any water that gets in should come back out through weepholes.  Right.
3rd shot.  Side lights in dodger should provide good visibility forward while sitting.
Waterways for the compainionway slide are original but made taller because of the redesign.  (Those slots on the side of the opening.) The slide will be flat carbonate with no side turndowns like the original hatch.  But glue-on drip-strips may be added on the underside of the plastic for anti-drip insurance.
Would have liked the Plastimo 130 compass mount a bit higher off the top of the slide.  The middle light in the dodger is planned to be opening.

316)  Where's the bunk?

317)  Spoiled by this wide 2X4 ladder over the remodel years.  Top step is about where the kitchen counter is going - angled away from access to the q-berth stowage area.

Promise to put up and shut up!;)

Quote from: Bill;17784Moving to the cockpit . . . Here's Ebb's latest creation – a "Stand Up Tiller."  With all that arc, it will be possible to steer while standing without raising the tiller handle.  :cool:

OK, referring to post 307  
Sent a full sized poster paper pattern (Ebb's Cobra Tiller) to H&L while conferring with the receptionist by telephone.  I assumed the shop would match the curve to existing molds,  but got a call back saying the unfinished tiller would cost including shipping $77.82.  
Well, that's not bad for handmade, so I said, Sure.  She called back and made some adjustment to the price.  I asked her what pattern it was.  She said it was related to some (numbers she assumed I had reference to..) but that it was a custom job.  Had to snail mail the check.  
Haven't got the tiller yet but it's only been 2 weeks. 7/30/08

Quote from: Bill;17786Next up (literally) is the famous Bboorreeggaarrdd Dodger.  Actually, it's more like the windshield system on a '57 Oldsmobile convertible!  And, about as tough, as this very heavy duty structure will be bolted to the cabin for added strength.  

From the back side, you can see the location for the steering compass below the center lite (which will open for added ventilation). All the openings will be filled with Lexan lites.

[Note too, the sea hood covering the main hatch, making for added protection from blue water waves.]

Referring to post 309.
I, ahh h h, hope that 'heavy duty' is correct for the 'wrap around wind shield' dodger piece - BUT it is not strictly very heavy - made as it is with fiberglass laminations and pvc foam - with rather generous negative weight holes cut out for the carbonate lights.  What might be considered too heavy is the sea hood which has the original companionway sliding hatch laminated into it for good luck - and is solid frp.

Quote from: Bill;17783Here's the water line taped onto the hull using the "paint can and string" method.  The bits of blue tape represent original lines and, well Ebb will need to explain.

...Referring to 306
This Tim Lackey method of transferring a dead straight line to a boat is perfect for tight confines as is evident here.  The tent provided the uprights for clamping  the horizontal reference planks. ( a kind of engineered  pine -  made-up of pieces and strips glued together and primed flat beige. S3S,  KD and very stable.  Good pattern wood )  
Tim's system would like a wider foot print to be able to move the string further out to touch more stops on the mid part of the hull for ease of marking.  
Putting a straight line on the hull requires that the boat is dead level port and starboard.  Not necessary for the fore and aft.  So, the approximately 12' long 1" thick and 6" wide boards were clamped  dead level like the boat onto tent  poles at the required boat waterline, front and back.  
Took measurements off our original plans and then onto the boat with story sticks.  Made up yellow nylon string with  gallon weights at each end and draped them over the boards, a set on each side.  Made up string and cans for both sides so that the waterline could be compared. And checked against the original paint job it was: Close Enough.

Tight confines require that mid girth of the hull is located and the string  securely taped to the boat in that exact spot and height. 3 pieces of immobilizing blue tape.  Weighting the nylon string with gallon cans of resin (not sure that the house paint Tim uses is fully copasetic for this in-your-face left coast operation) makes it bar taut and straight as a laser.  You semi  lift the can to move it back and forth on the beam or you might saw through the string.

One end of the boat at a time is done from the mid-point.  Half of the string remains unmoved as a constant reference. If a can is moved too close to the hull the curve of the bilge bows the string down.  Have to be careful to just kiss the hull and lock it in place each time with a piece of tape.  Worked out  every 8" or so. The process requires constant sighting along the  straight part of the line going to the opposite board and visually 'dragging' the straight half part of the string back where the string is being tacked to the hull.     Go back to these single tapes and micro-readjust until a waterline reveals itself.  Time consuming, exacting, tedious - and satisfying.  Description of process also tedious.  Sorry.

Marked the hull with a very fine line sharpie along the string between the tapes.

In other words  that whole section of waterline  from the middle of the boat to either end is taped to the hull.  Have lunch, Take a walk.  Come back, take another look,  move up and down with your eye using the straight part of the string AND the far horizontal as  datum, trying mentally to bring it around the curve.  It is pretty easy to introduce a downward bend in line - you have to keep picking up on the dead straight datums.   Then mark along the top of the string with the sharpie.

  After marking, remove the tape pieces - but NOT the X'ed center - and move the can back to parallel (about 42" out from the center - which of course you had to guess at).  Check the string is absolutely straight.  Then tackle the other half of the boat using the straight part of the string for sighting.  Sight and tape the full length from the center to an end.  That weight-can on the side you are moving and marking will be way over  the other side of the center point of the plank as you tape  the last 8" stations at the bow or  stern.  Hold the string, which doesn't like being there, with a squeeze clamp.  Mark the top of the string between the tape strips with the can  squeeze-clamped way over.

Later when the side was sharpied end to end, the blue tape stripe was added on the new waterline for a welcome visual reward,

That's one way.
There is real magic in getting a straight line on a boat.  I'd guess 98% of the boats coming into the yard have crooked waterlines.  I've seen crooked boot tops on boats at the boat show!

Tim, I know, did it a lot easier,  but then he had all of Maine to do it in,
 Little Gull has but a tight little funky plastic garage in a San Rafael parking lot.  It works surprisingly well where a laser can't go.   Thanks Senor Tim! - enjoy your writing and tips and  consummate skill!
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Kidding aside, Tim Lackey's Triton 381 website is the best resource there is for a plastic classic revamp.  And he has kept it available for everyone.  
He's Casey at the bat for Carl Alberg / Pearson boats.  He is the only one who chronicles the  renovation game inning by inning, play by play.
 For square-one amateurs he's the king of boat projects.  He out-caseys Don Casey on specifics.  His public project logs are classics that stand far above everybody else's blogs on any boat subject.
 Finding information about projects and rebuilding a plastic boat is time consuming and mostly disappointing.  I've come to hate forums.
Tim has a literary style that lifts a chore into an art form.  
This amateur has constantly been thwarted by incomplete information, lack of pictures/close-ups, and questionable methods.  That is why I go on too long  on details -  frustration.  
How-to books are always disappointing to me.  They are information 7-11's.  On the internet Tim is the best friend/instructor any amateur boat restorer can have... looking over his shoulder.

Well lookit that - WOW!!!

A white mirror, the hull! A light, but what should be *incredibly* strong 'sprit (in particular, I like how it'll be anchored to the deck near the edges...)! Curvy-cornered cabinetry, a la TonyG, and just like it should be for a boat going to sea!

That dodger, the lines, the shape and curves - very reminiscent of a Golden Age of Flight, classic airplane windshield - awesome!

Almost like you could have a sliding-canopy bimini/cockpit cover to lean out of while wearing a leather helmet with goggles, silk scarf streaming aft in the wind as you and Little Gull beat to weather! :D

(Which was my plan exactly, so now it's back to the drawing board...) ;):p

Berth? Looks like you have the room to sling a double hammock down there!!! :D

Great work there, sir, and lots of it! Can't wait to see your interior come together more, wondering what delights *that* will reveal...

This is what I resembled when I saw these new pics...

BUY SYSTEM THREE T-88 STRUCTURAL EPOXY ADHESIVE AT YOUR PERIL.

To make these coaming corner posts each side required 3 pieces of 1 1/2" x 6" x 15" to be glued  up into a single block of approx 4 1/2" X 6".
There are not many wood glues available for exposed exterior  wood pieces.  The only wood glue we can truly depend on is Resorcinol.  
It is an formaldehyde powder/purple resin mix that is impervious to everything when bonded including water immersion and delamination.  It needs careful measuring, controlled timing,  controlled temperature, and extreme clamping to be successful.  it leaves a prominent dark purple glue line.  Not something desirable on a mahogany glue-up for the coaming posts at the cabin.  So I thought!

Another is powdered urea-formaldehyde 'plastic resin' glue, mostly tan colored and activated by mixing with water.  
It is water resistant, will not take immersion.  But it leaves a lighter colored or no line at all and is often used for wood masts, spars and laminated tillers.  It also requires pressure while curing.  It is a little more forgiving with humidity and temperature.  Generally these glues have trouble setting under 60 degrees ambient.

I would describe these glues as producing a chemical bond with the wood - while the next choice produces a mechanical bond. That is if it's not T-88.

The third choice is epoxy adhesive.  My bloody choice.  I have used Smith's 2-part Allwood and Tropical epoxy for years without failure.  It says it will glue oily woods such as teak - and it does.  T-88 makes the same claim.  Laminates are put together with moderate pressure so that the glue does not all get squeezed out to starve the joint.  Good epoxy is even more forgiving of humidity and ambient temperature.  It's the only choice when the project temp is below 65degrees.

Structural epoxies are not laminating epoxies which are usually runny and engineered for fabric wet-out.  Adhesive epoxies are stiffer, thicker, and smell mildly of toast and ammonia.  Guess they are low VOC, nearly 100% solids, and are not waterbourne.
It was time to try a fresh system so I ordered SYSTEM THREE T-88 STRUCTURAL EPOXY ADHESIVE.
//www.systemthree.com
It mixes just like Smiths Tropical Wood Epoxy:  it is a viscous material that spreads easily because it kind of likes to hold together.  Quite different than laminating epoxy which flows apart like pancake syrup.  On the freshly milled mahogany there seemed to be quick wet-out . The glue was applied liberally with a toothed spatula to both sides of each joint.  No holidays.  The pieces were smooched together and squared up with clamps at right angle to the glue line and weight was put on top.  Can't remember what weight but might have been tool boxes.  The result IS a consistent 1/3mm glue line.....

DISASTER!!!


The coaming blocks have failed.

THE GLUE LINE IS PULLING APART
Barely noticeable across the top end grain the two glue lines are opening.  So far only the wider top of the post is coming apart.

 Have not yet pried at the joints.  The wood may be moving because of hot weather and drying winds - the pieces have not spent time in the sun. The WOOD at the joints  is not splitting -
just the GLUE is letting go!  
The end grain of the wood is totally tight, not the slightest crack.  
The whole point of this adhesive is to hold the wood pieces TOGETHER

NO MATTER WHAT.


DON'T BUY SYSTEM THREE T-88.
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You have to take my word on this one.
 I've worked  epoxies for decades.
Was extra careful with this project.  Mah baby.
No solvents were used to prep the wood surfaces.
The mahogany has been covered and stickered dry and air dried for 30 plus years.
Honduras is not known as a problem wood to glue.
Freshly planed, milled, toothed for epoxy to grip.
The pieces were sequentially stacked as cut.
The two-part T-88 carefully measured, carefully mixed.
The method used is to turn the two parts together  on a square of acrylic sheet with a two inch spatula/knife.  Excellent and thorough.
The glue was not mixed in a cup.  

After mixing it was allowed to rest for 1/2 hour.  
Then applied to room temperature mahogany.
and the pieces smooched together wet on wet.
What did I miss?

As far as I'm concerned this is a failure of

:eek: S Y S T E M   T H R E E .:eek:
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Good Cod, and I just got started using their waterbourne LPU in the cabin.
And I thought also for the coach roof outside.... maybe it's garbage too?.....

T-88 is probably a good enough glue.
It is that  too much was asked of it.
There just isn't enough glue to wood mass.
Guess it would work better if multiple layers of mahogany were laminated together - say 1/2" thick  planks in a stack.
More glue area might minimize or almost stop the wood's ability to move.
Could say that this epoxy has limits as a wood adhesive.

There is also the possibility that too much of the wet of the glue was absorbed into the dry wood.  Don't know if this can happen with this kind of glue.  Penetrating surfaces would be a  plus and increase the bond.  No?  Providing more tooth by scouring the surfaces on mating pieces  might have created too much more surface area for the adhesive.

In gluing large pieces - much like biscuits or dowels are used in  panel and table top edge gluing  - I could have worked in three or four   splines along each glue face by cutting matching 1/4" grooves and  adding 1/4" splines that  would have increased the glue  area and maybe helped to stabilize the  large pieces I felt I had to use.  
The splines would have to be vertical grained.  If the grain of the spline is the same as the work then the relatively thin strips might split.   I would have to make up bread-slice pieces with  short  grain 90 degrees to the work.  
An easier substitute are 1/4" 5ply Meranti Aquaply strips.  1/4" Meranti made overseas is often slightly thinner 6mm, thereby giving epoxy some groovin   room.

Major pieces that these  corner posts are will require they be made over again.  BUMMER.  I would redo them as described. (See later post.)
 
As a last harrah, mechanical fastenings could be tried to pin the damned post together.  But I know the wood will win and  delaminate in Tahiti.
 
Yet one more desperate idea:
Numerous holes could be drilled into  the three pieces from the inside face and a bunch of mahogany dowel pins glued in.*  
It's a chancey proposition because the main glue-up now has to be considered a secondary and failing fastening - and the dowel-pin quick fix the primary.  
So we'll have to think this through.  Wood dowels look good at the moment because the all important lags - that will hold the corners to the cabin - are going to go thru some of them.
(I'm going to try this method.)

A good dunking in penetrating epoxy. (for ME - this sucker is falling apart!)
And 20 coats of varnish.

Have tossed the T-88 because the stuff can't be trusted..... garbage.

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* found honduras m. dowels on the net at Constantine's Wood Center.  If they fit tight in the drilled holes I'll use the tan glue and have a saw cut relief the length of each dowel pin so they can be driven in wet all the way.  
Constantines has been in business for more than 200 years.  How bout that!
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What gets me is that I might have missed an important step - using a new product.  
However T-88 is a recognizable adhesive type that I've worked with for decades from one manufacturer in particular, but a few others as well.
What really gets me is that this failure trivializes the effort.  It could have been something structurally more important - like a spar, bowsprit, boomkin, window or hatch - that could  fall apart at a bad time - without warning.
If the proportion of wood mass to glue area was too much - and the glue-up began moving - then at least the adhesive should have pulled wood off the glued faces.  Only the glue is cracking as the wood is moving (the tiniest bit).

Mike, who runs the estate shop here, recalls that in some System Three literature there is a suggestion that prior to using T-88 Adhesive a System Three penetrating epoxy should be used to prime the wood to be glued.
This not correct.

For all intents the failure of the glue actually has the look of a starved joint.
Even though we have a requisite glue line.

A Technical Data Sheet for T-88 states:
(no mention of wood moisture content)
"Glue line thickness is not critical and clamping is not necessary...
"Oak is a highly porous wood with a strong tendency to absorb resin and yield starved joints of substandard  strength.  Preferred practice is to apply a liberal coat to both surfaces and without mating allow the parts to stand open for 30-45 minutes.  Dull spots indicate complete absorption and should be touched up... then assembled and clamped with minimal pressure - just enough to ensure contact.  Or the oak can be presealed with a thin coat on both mating surfaces and cured separately, then sand lightly, apply fresh T-88 and join lightly."
Teak surfaces require vigourous wiping with lacquer thinner and while still moist dried with rag.  Repeat if the surfaces don't have a whitish color "indicating the extraction of surface oil."
My ancient dry honduras mahogany could be considered porous, I suppose.
I did not do the 1/2 hour open time to see if absorption was happening.  However, there arguably  was plenty of glue  applied to both surfaces and a  mild pressure was continuously applied while hardening that might have closed nano gaps caused by liquid being absorped by the wood.  The block when dry had an even glue line all round.   This indicates no glueless areas caused by absorption.  Wrong.
The problem starts to be noticed at the large endgrain area (the top of the post) and there are indications (from the cutoff wedge pieces used outside  to prop the mast) that the wood pulls away evenly all along the glueline.

Smith & Co.'s Tropical Hardwood Epoxy (Jamestown) requires NO PRETREATMENT to stick any kind of wood together permanently. From Lignum Vitae to Teak to Mahogany.
You have to know something about the glue.  End-grain gluing is ALWAYS a problem with any glue. This is not end grain gluing but matched flat to flat grain.  But Smith's doesn't need a crutch.

Now, to be absolutely sure we would need a fair comparison in a second  post glued up with Smith's Tropical.



SO NOW, LET'S OPEN UP THE JOINT:
I forced a chunk of the laminate apart on one of the cut-offs with a stiff-blade putty knife..  These are the large 'waste' pieces now disintegrating full time in the sun.  The wood has 100% pulled away from the joint line.   Yet the glue did not want to let go right away.  
....Inside the mating surfaces show visually and by feel that the adhesive was evenly distributed on both surfaces.  But one surface shows the layer of glue - the mating surface shows  no sign of adhesion!  
The only conclusion is that the glue was widely absorbed on one side  leaving few areas of connection.  
The glue line turns out is essentially a figment.  
Even though there is a apparent  visual line of glue
one side or the other side seems to have let go!
There is no solid connection of wood to glue to wood except  one small area WHERE THE WOOD RIPPED OFF FROM THE MATING SIDE. Quite odd.
This could be a lack of experience with both materials on my part. We've had a hot summer here and the wood is very dry and has very low moisture content.  I didn't put a meter on it.
Taking the 15X loupe (Lee Valley) to the glue lines shows some lines 'sticking' intermittently to one or other side.  While other lines have separated a complete length from one side.  
I remember when the T-88 was mixed it didn't feel like the thick body of Smith's epoxy I'm used to.

I don't believe the Smith's Tropical epoxy could have just disappeared like the T-88 did.
Why one identical mating surface accepting glue and not the other?  
Why one surface appearing not absorbed (evident layer of glue) and the opposite surface starved?  Insane.  These are identical sequential pieces.
Because of the weirdness of T-88, my goof or not, I'm sticking to the other product I know and trust.  I'm positive I could never force a Smith's joint apart with a PUTTY KNIFE.
Smith's CPES, a penetrating sealer, is not a recommended surface pre-treatment for Tropical Wood Epoxy.
To be absolutely fair, the pieces could be primed with thin epoxy and allowed to set.  Then the block would be sanded and assembled and glued with structural epoxy.  THis is probably the way I should have done them.
_____________________________________________________________________________
THE FIX IS IN.
Mike suggests that with a wide thin resaw blade on the Laguna bandsaw we could easily cut along the glueline - ERASE THE JUNK ENTIRELY and then stick the block back together with another glue that has balls.  
Minimal dimensional change.
Some cross dowels will be needed to key the blocks from sliding when gluing.  I'll drill those in before separating the blocks.   Next time:  RESORCINOL.
Plastic Resin (urea-formaldehyde) will not survive soaking or swell/shrink heat/cold cycles of the coaming post environment.  Epoxy has an elevated temp inadequacies and similar problem with high moisture or wet that coaming posts are subject to.  Resorcinol is the ONLY glue for the job. R. is the ONLY glue that survives BOILING tests.
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Type into your search engine APPENDIX C SUPERIOR ADHESIVES FOR THE MILLENIUM.  This is Larry Pardey's condemnation of epoxy and its major purveyor's.   It's a great article, from a book whose title escapes me.  A professional  woodworker's perspective.  Epoxy has its place in layup, but never as a wood glue.  The tropics will destroy epoxy in a couple seasons.  Really can't use it in any exterior wood glue up. Guess I got lucky!

Ebb....I just spent about an hour going through your pics. Hope to steal a few ideas from you.As I looked at the date of the last ones I realized..we need an update  More pics please :D

I drove by Little gull last Sunday, and if I had my camera I would taken some pics, because I have been thinking the same thing.

Back on page 11, Bill showed us Ebb's "engineering table". Wonder if the lack of updates indicates too much time at the table and not enough on lil gull ?  ;-)  Only teasing Ebb....you are creating a masterpeace...extremely well thought out and engineered. Now...about those updates ........

As I walked by something caught my eye and I stopped.

A crane fly was caught in a spider's web
It furiously tried to get untangled, beating its wings, bouncing rhythmically in air.
Each time the spider approached the fly became more frantic making the spider back off a little.
The crane fly was more than twice the size of its captor.
It seemed to be tiring.  The bouncing stopped.
The fly quietly and deliberately used a free leg to strip an invisible sticky thread from a fouled leg as the spider came closer and closer.
Just as the spider was ready to pounce the leg came free!

But the fly was still caught, it  helicoptered its wings again and broke away,
landing close by, seeming to shiver.
The spider remained suspended and still poised to wrap up the catch of a lifetime.

Watching the drama, I  thought about helping the flier get loose from the trapper.
Wondered if that would change the course of the universe.

I was sure the fly wasn't going to make it.:D

______________________________________________________________________________________________
Making some progress inside.
Photo soon?

Ebb

just want to say wow,
like to see more pics, and just amazed
Tim

Ebb has submitted a number of photos for review and approval for publication by the editors :rolleyes:  The editors take no responsibility, liability or any other 'ability' for that which follows . . . :D

The ketchup slide box starts as a simple stitch-n-glue closed box

Easy Chair with side locker

Easy Chair in foreground with locker and slide box.  Background shows galley without sink counter - sliding panel cupboard.

Starboard dinette lockers with lift lids.  Insulated hull with vinyl fabric. Uncovered Ensolite insulation glued in on top of hull.  Top of photo is the unfinished cabin side hand rail.

Port side,  left corner of foto is galley without sink - and easy chair.

Starboard side,  dinette without hinged table.

Stub bulkheads glue up for cabin furniture.  Easy Chair.

Interior hand rail inserts glued thru cabin side.

Compression beam being bolted thru the deck. Compression beam series of thru-deck bronze bolts.  Center three go thru previously epoxy and Xmatt reconstruction directly under mast.  Outer bolts pass thru composite balsa core with classic hockey-puck treatment - oversized holes and undercut skin.  The original unglued  support beam was locked in place with only two #16 bronze screws driven thru the circular mast-step into the beam under  balsa-cored deck.

EDIT (11/28/11)
This date reference doesn't have any significance, except to record that the cupboard sliding door locker at #336 - pg17 on this thread
 has an  'how-it-was-made'  confession  over at TonyG's Gallery:  Fruits Of My Labor - pg25 - #494.

Clarification.
Photo at #341.    Those red thingies are right angle pieces of fiberglass ("electrical grade") material from McMasterCarr.*
The bottom flange sticks out on the inside of the cabin and a flat piece of the same material is cut to the cabin curve from bulkhead to bulkhead and glued on top, tying them all together.  What follows is one way of adding interior handrails without using thru-bolts.

They are not glued in when the photo was taken.
However the hollow between liner and cabin molding has been filled and the vertical sides chamfered. An  inside the liner donut with a square hole.
 
When prepping / wetting out  a clip for inserting into the hole, a cut-to-fit rectangular piece of glass is positioned like a scarf around the upright flange so that the fiberglass gets glued to inside of the liner when the clip is pushed into place.  
Fiberglass tails are brought outside, pasted to the sides of the hole.  Then the hole  filled and  flange buried.  After setting,  the filler was faired and  pieces of fabric  sanded away.

 
Interesting that the  space  is different in each hole between the cabin and the cabin liner.
The space gets wider  (about 1/4' to 5/8") toward the rear of the cabin as witnessed through the progression of holes.
This converging space between liner and cabin is pretty equal port and starboard which would mean that the liner is centered pretty good in A338.
ALSO the further forward toward the mast the thicker the cabin sides are laminated.  There is  less apparent space separating cabin and liner.
Also, the molded curve of cabin into deck, right there at the deck where the Fein tool was used to cut in at deck level is very thick, very substantial and very hard.
Smoked at least FIVE  K-blades!  20 bucks EACH.

After cutting the square holes and exposing the inside,
 there is barely enough room to sort of prep the inner surfaces that have been waiting 40 years for this event.  But imco it HAS to be done.

Since both cabin and liner were laid up in female molds we have to assume the last polyester resin coat put on in 1966 had wax in it so that it would cure hard.
This wasn't the place to use a solvent to kill any wax.  So  carpet-taped pieces of 40 grit sanding belt on the ends of doorskin strips were used to scratch things up inside  best I could.


I've said this too many times:
imco FIRST priming surfaces with liquid epoxy that will be filled with thickened epoxy is essential for 'secondary' bonding to bond.
After priming - mop it up with a rag if it's really wet - SCRUB on some of the thickened stuff (toothbrush in this case) before actual filling to help get the old and the new to like each other even better.
Sides, top and bottom are filled with mishmash using flexible foam rod for dams.  This is all done at the same time.....But you needn't do all the holes at the same time!
When hard, the holes were cleaned up (that's the stage in the photo at #341) and a slot cut in the liner through the bottom of the hole for the angle clip.

With the holes  prepped for the second time  the clips were inserted.  
With the little piece of fiberglass bridle and the wedge shape of the second fill, can only hope they are solidly implanted and amalgamated with the cabin.
I use the best available LAMINATING epoxy almost exclusively - for everything.  Structural projects like this  stretches the intent of the epoxy, which is really to laminate fabric together.  However, imco NON-BLUSHING good epoxy is good glue.**

The holes on the outside are disappeared now.
You'd never know all these words took place there.

Another set of right angle pieces will be glued under each projecting flange inside - upright and facing the cabin side. Just to make absolutely sure, will glue AND machine-screw  the clips through the layers together.  
Mahogany rails attach to the uprights.  
A lot of weight will be put on this system at times.
It looks like grab rails over at the side like this will get used not only for trapeze work but handing the body in and out of the seats/berths.  An adult will be able to negotiate the accommodation with a hand on each rail, arms out-stretched.  I think there is more ERGO in the dynamic of having rails at this lower level.

We'll end up with closed channels under the windows.  No other overhead rails are planned.
Dang, hope this all makes sense.

Haven't turned up another joker yet who's added  railings this way.
BUT this is how aye did it - not how IT is done.  
Critique appreciated:D
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*Hammer tested the strength  of this red colored commercial polyester fiberglass angle and sheet.  Also tested glue-ups.  Looks like it's made with glass mat and perhaps pressed or rolled.  Could be extruded.  Epoxy glued pcs held and seems plenty strong.   Angle material  is  3/16" - the sheet exactly 1/8".
Smells sweet when cut, but not the usual styrene scent.  Used lacquer thinner to remove wax or manufacturing residues  and scoured surfaces before gluing.  Could have/should have used TSP or a citrus remover.
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:mad:**If your MO  working with epoxy in a renovation is  to stop - let the epoxy set - and then go on to the next step which often requires gluing epoxy to  epoxy - then  blushing epoxy cannot be used in the type of work described above.  Blushing epoxy requires washing  grease off with detergent and warm water after every set.  
Explain to me how that can be done in the method described above.  
There is NO EXCUSE for a maker  of epoxy in 2010 to sell you stuff that BLUSHES.  OR has any SOLVENT in it.  
And by that score it is IRRESPONSIBLE  for that formulator or the VENDOR to sell you  hardener with formaldehyde in it.
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The square holes in the side of the cabin and the slot the clips are inserted into were cut with a Fein Multimaster (sold to home owners).  It comes with a dog-leg "E-Cut" blade which has small teeth on its leading edge and is able to plunge cut STRAIGHT into materials.  I had to buy blades at a local hardware at about $60 in a three pack.  If memory serves,  used at least 6 blades to do the job.  I think they were labeled  'bi-metal'  but the old frp smoked them!!!

#342
I can tell you what I should have done with those four wide out bolts, maybe all six.

I could have dished-out the hockey-puck tops  like we do for any hole repair.
Then epoxied  two or three disks of fiberglass (widest diameter first) into each dish so that the edges of the new glass overlaps the venerable polyester deck.
Then redrilled the holes through for the 3/8" SB carriage bolts.
Tightened jam-nut and washer onto the new fiberglass.  
(Note to self: Jam nut and washer measure 1/4" thick.  Make sure nut can be covered with filler.  Use 6-8OZ glass fabric for disks.   Keep the dishing as close to the deck surface as possible - don't gouge too deep.)  
Bolt ends get cut off with  grinder right at the nut after assembly.
 Everything fits perfect of course,  nuts are JUST  below the finished surface of the deck.
Then fill what remains of the  dish by covering the nut with chopped-strand and epoxy and grind flat.  Nothing shows after filling and fairing.
The fabric disks that lap the old deck hopefully engage the tough old cabin skin of the deck composite outside  with the strongback inside.*
Nuts and washers are really on the 'outside' but just happen to be in a convenient dip that just happens to be filled in.

That's how I shou:odadunit
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* The composite has a top layer that seems to be about 3/16" to a 1/4" thick.  Mid layer is 3/8" end-grain balsa.  The inner layer (NOT the liner) is 1/16" or less in places.  Estimate the composite generally to be 9/16" thick.  The foredeck, where it was cut out for a Bomar, is exactly that.  Haven't had the boat totally apart for investigation obviously, so this is general assumption - some places it's thicker.

OUT     STANDING!!!  Truley masterful designing and constrution, Ebb.  You are really getting the most out of one of these 'smallish' hulls.  Little Gull will be inspiration for a great many DIYers to come.  Mark my words and just you wait and see!

The hand rails are a great design with a drip sill incorporated into a very stout and sleek form.  Top notch woodwork waiting to go on yet I'd bet.

I, for one, am in LOVE with your diversion from the typical 'hamster home tube' interior when you included some angles and curves.  And an easy chair!  Man oh man you've got it right on the head.  If no one else notices look at all of the space behind the backrest-nearly paralell to the hull.  Or the undershot base that gives the feet somewhere else to go if they want.  It's a fun journey to go back to page one and follow the progres you've crafted.

The emotions, Ebb, it's a privledge to experience your work and yet you make me feel pretty inadequate:eek:  Well, keep it coming.  I'll just have to toughen up.

While perusing some of the usual sites I ran across this photo that depicts the growing popularity of comfortable seating.  I am speaking to Ebb's 'easy chair'...  I'm calling shotgun!!

Man, that does look AT HOME, doesn't it?
Look at the space in that cabin!  And that sweet little burner!

If anybody's noticed, littlegull's easychair (photo#338) will have to have a hinged half seat added.
But it'll swing back down to clear the aisle.
I'd like a bit of a bump more cushion (like Tony's photo shows) along the front of the seat to make our easychair a bit more posh.  
This 'chair' (HAD to be renamed!) is built below the original settee level to allow my head - just barely - to lean back under the deck.

The Ariel cabin is so small that lighting a candle will take the chill off!:rolleyes:

Ebb - She's looking spectacular.

Q: Where are you sleeping at? Waaay earlier in the thread, you had an area to starboard, partly tucked under the cockpit seat, that was to function as a quarter berth - and which isn't shown in the latest photos - is that your slumber spot?

And after the past couple weeks, I have to tell you - it takes more than a candle! An oil-filled, radiator style heater is sufficient, however, for when temps get as low as down into the 20's. ;D

Hey Kurt, good to see you again.

Around the aisle at dinette seat and V-berth level is now rimmed with a brown snake of continuous mahogany cleat that  will hold the usual filler boards that make berths out of seats.  Cleats are 1/2" lower than  surfaces to take the filler boards.  I'm thinking, without testing yet, that cushions can be kept in their place with velcro without added fiddles.

 At the moment it looks like the dinette will convert to the main single berth.  The table will hinge up easily to be out of the way and three boards in a canvas sleeve can be pulled across the foot well.  They will FOLD and house in the narrow space  under the center side locker visible in  starboard interior fotos.  Not made yet.
The width of the sleeping area at the dinette seats will be tight for a big frame like mine - alterations are always possible.  I'll have a canvas preventer on the open side. - which could add a couple more inches width.

The V-berth  'aisle' has the composter toilet.  It will have a cushioned lid over head necessities at the forward bulkhead,   And the cushioned back of the easy chair will be removable and used to top the wider half of the space up to the break.  The whole V-berth aisle IS the head and we'll have a privacy curtain.  That's the easy part.
The widest part of the aisle back to the galley is difficult at the moment to figure how to support boards to make the double wide option.  But I restrained the builtins to one main sleeping level based on the V-berth height.   Frame pieces to suspend the boards, the boards themselves and where to store them, and the configuration of the pads/cushions that will have to puzzle-piece together for sleeping on.... will just have to work themselves out!  Are there any sea-specific upholstery gods to appeal to?

The head will be accessible by lifting the top(s) off.
The optional wall to wall double berthing will end at the galley at an awkward angle.  But it will leave good standing access in the galley - and for climbing out and in the companionway.

The quarter berth, not lined yet with insulation and fabric cover is too small and too tight for me.  You'll see in earlier fotos that it had to be stepped DOWN from the dinette seat level even  to make partial knee bending possible.  
It will be great for storage tho.  
Maybe not great - as I still intend to seal off the starboard seat locker, leave the lid openable in the cockpit for a shallow tray.  That means sail bags in the stern of the q-berth will disappear for years.
Access to the back from the interior will be a royal head banger!

Access to the head, while the bed is made up, is something I have considered much.

Compromise, compromise, compromise. One day, it'll get Perfect. Har. :)

I did a visual, to see what it would look like, posted below. Your choice of fabric color will likely be much better. :D

Kurt, THAT'S fantastic - how you do that?

So, from what Kurt has there, we can see how the double wide will work by extending a line down from the angled arm of the chair,  thereby filling in that whole area, including the chair seat at the 'arms'.  It would leave leg dangling room at the gallery to get up, dress, make tea, or climb out to the stern rail.

I guess if two were sleeping there, one would poke the other and get them to curl up while that mid cushion up front was removed for access to the composter.
It's a bit of a trip to imagine how this actually would work!

If it was a marina situation, I'd probably have a portapotti in the cockpit.

OR
The cockpit can be converted to a double under the stars or under a bimini and the whole downstairs left in its normal state for whatever ablutions are required in privacy.:rolleyes:


That would be preferable.  
So at some point, and with some hopeful expectation,  energy will be spent on getting that right.  
The bimini option - with side curtains - adds a huge THREE-SEASON ROOM to an Ariel or Commander.  And should be seriously considered in any small cruising boat remodel.
This versatility will also work for a couple with kid(s).

Ebb - I'm using GIMP for the imagery. As to the 'how', it isn't really hard, with a couple lil tricks, and a good image manipulation application:

1) Opened your/a photo image in GIMP. Added a transparent "Layer" on top of the image, and a second plain white Layer behind/below it. You can turn the visibility of any particular Layer on or off, whenever you want.

2) So the top Layer, imagine it as a sheet of clear acetate to draw on, with your photo as guidance. I drew on the outlines, and once I had them done,

3) I turned off visibility of that middle, photo Layer. That leaves just the clear top layer with some colored lines, showing against the white bottom Layer (...the only point in having the bottom, plain white Layer is to make it very easy to see the top Layer lines, when I have the photo 'invisible'). The colored lines have defined the 'cushion' shapes against the white background below.

4) Then, still on the top Layer, I selected the shapes inside the lines, and filled them in with color.

5) and, last - made your photo Layer visible again before saving. That's all it takes!

So, if I got it right with the extra area, your salon-as-a-bed :) will look like this, then:

Quote from: ebb;20843The bimini option - with side curtains - adds a huge THREE-SEASON ROOM to an Ariel or Commander.  And should be seriously considered in any small cruising boat remodel.

You got that right, brother.  With limited cabin space allready allocated to pulling double (if not triple) duty, any cockpit that allows you to fully recline has to be seriously considered as a berth.  Undoubtedly it is an added expense to make a convertible cockpit that needs to be weighed against the benefits in some sort of cost/benefit ratio.  Factor into that equation how frequently one may actually use it...  But then, seriously, how cost effective is this 'boat stuff' when viewed with a strict monetary perspective?  As far as I'm concerned, it is the easiest way to make a split-level home out of a Commander or Ariel.

A big berth below for those rainy days or when you just wanna hang out seems like a real winner also.  I keep thinking 'where are we going to store all these pillows?', but where there is a will there is a way.

apropos GIMP, Kurt, my daughter explained it to me.
She said I'd never be able to do it.
I think it'll be like tyrying to fly an airplane.


Hey Tony,
About that cockpit well conversion to sleeping
Wonder if aye will care what any cos'facta ratio was
when I'm flat on my back  in the Tropics looking up at the stars.

I'll make some cockpit gratings strong enuf to span the well at seat level -
bring those electric BLUE KURT CUSHIONS  up from below - and retrieve  that last can of ginger ale from the cooler.....
and 'Here's To Ya!' the whole damn universe.

I SWEAR,  that's all I want!
EVER
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check out //www.youtube.com  The Seventh Skol
great animation
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I know why they are laffing in picture 354...
He's just hit his head AGAIN on the cabin rail while leaning back!

Quote from: ebb;20846Wonder if aye will care what any cos'facta ratio was
when I'm flat on my back  in the Tropics looking up at the stars.

Zactly!!!  I sat on an old rickety dock every night while down in Belize just amazed by all of the stars dipping to the horizon while everyone else sat at a bar just like they did Stateside.:confused:  It was never more clear that this boat is a portal to real life rather than some machine or posession as many unfortunate people view them.  I like to think you can either live on a boat or live with it.  I prefer the latter.

I was thinking the same thing with the flooring grate resting on small risers in the footwell during the day and on cleats at night.  It can't just be pretty-it's gotta pull double duty too.  Wanna put a canvas liner in the footwell to have a bath every now and then too.  What do you think about that?

I got a good price on what seemed like a huge roll of 200 Polar Tech fleece that produced 6 blankets.
Picking one blanket up folding it small standing made a tidy rectangular brick.  With another stacked on top I asked the seamstress at the dry cleaners to makeup zippered bag/cases out of some bright printed PT fleece.  What resulted are three firm but comfortable soft cushions, each with two blankets, that will decorate the dinette side.
Many cruisers seem to do versions of this.  You can make up cushion shapes for sleeping bags, clothes, towels/rags, would think nearly everything, maybe even the laundry bag could be disguised as a cushion.

PolarTec (formally Malden Mills) seems to be perfect for a boat.  Water falls out of it, drys quick.  It is relatively warm when wet.  It has a wonderful soft feel.  It doesn't get pulled out of shape, so it is good for covers and cases.  It comes in great cheerful colors.  I won't buy any foreign fleece - you don't know what's in it, there might be outgassing of some sort, far east manufacturers have a history of poisoning products.  True Polar Fleece is made from spun polyethylene NOT polyester blanket or work jacket liner.  Chemically they are nearly the same.
But in a loft fabric the PT is way superior.

Mattress and sit cushions are a special situation in Littlegull.  All flat surfaces have access panels and lid keepers that are not flat.  The V-berths have access plates.  Think that the 3/4" open 'horsehair' stuff*  I've seen might make a good first layer.
It's intent is to get air circulation under mattress.  It has to be a rugged material to stay springy under butt and body print.  Haven't read about it recently.*  On top of that a closed cell foam in a sunbrella type fabric will be used.  Talking about double duty,  That's major positive lifesaving flotation.
Closed cell foam tends to be firm,  and it's too expensive to be very thick, but indeed where there is a will there is a way.  Pillow, cushion, sleeping bag, blanket can all be used to soften a spartan pallet. This isn't the suburbs!

Seattle Fabrics, Inc, Outdoor & Recreational Fabrics seems to be a fantastic source for cargo netting, hydrostatic water repellent polyester (WeatherMAX 65), coated and uncoated nylon (Master Nylon), vinyl coated polyester and neoprene (coated mesh), and urethane coated ripstop tent material.  I bought sample packs of each.  They have Sunbrella and other rugged outdoor fabrics.  What their prices are I haven't compared.  But obviously they can provide appropriate fabric and thread (use Goretex thread with sunbrella) for any conceivable project.

Making a TUB LINER for the cockpit well seems simple enough.  You'd have a tube sewn into the aft end of the liner for the tiller to slip into - to stretch out all the way in your tub - and to have four sides.  You'll have difficulty making your choice - but a silver 4oz, 140 Denier with 1.5oz  urethane coated Super K-Kote Ripstop, 60" wide, $9.50YD - would stuff into a small open-mesh sack.  Might want heavier material. Don't know about soaking or having that many gallons of water.  Yet with privacy curtains the basin might sub in as a SPA!  I feel that a pullout shower hose would be my choice in the cockpit if I made electric hot water. That is very remote.  This isn't the suburbs.

 A good quality 4gal 'sun shower' can be filled from the tea kettle, hung from the boom, and a GI sitz wash in the unlined cockpit is how I see it.
Two bags full would be unparalleled luxury!:p
Managed to score a 2gal s.s. garden pump-up pressure sprayer.  Too big to store easy, but we'll try it.
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*HYPERVENT
horsehair stuff is Hypervent Marine.com.   Called them up because their website was not updated.  It shows a black plastic wire mat material but refers to it as white. "Yes, we are in business." Asked the owner if buttloading was a problem as in a seat cushion where  it is depressed in the same place all the time:  "No memory, no problem, very tuff stuff."   39"W, $12 linear foot.   Defender has it for $9.33 a foot by the yard.  
  Hypervent is made from Nylon 6, is 3/4" thick and comes with a scrim material on one side.  This allows taping pieces together (indeed, hinging them) and perhaps incorporating hook and loop fastening.  Haven't used it yet.
This stuff is NOT 'DryBunk' which is an absorbant foam underlayment that you have to drape on your lifelines to dry out - along with your sleeping bags.

Ebb,
 
Thanks again for the grand tour of Littlegull today.  Rob and I are thoroughly impressed and inspired by the work you have done on Littlegull.  The boat looks even better than the pictures in this thread.  Thanks again also for the lead ballast!  I will put them to good use on my Triton.
 
One thing I forgot is to bring a camera so that I can post the pictures to share with the other forum members but most of them are already documented here except the your more recent work, like the galley countertop.  When the Alberg Group comes up next month I will remember to bring a camera.
 
Again great job!  Keep up the good work.
 
Ray
Triton106
Blossom
Alameda, California

Thanks Ray,
It was a treat to discuss with you guys the changes and reasoning behind them.

See you at the  San Francisco ALBERG Fleet Sunday meetings at Leila's Caffe in Berkeley.:cool:
(next meeting is May 9th 2010 at 9AM) Commanders and Arieleers, come on over,   check it out.

Happy new years Ebb.

    Hope your healthy,happy and are finding some boatyard time as well. There have been no recent posts here and with the new year comes a formal request for an update complete with pictures of Lil Gull. It has been far too long and as the saying goes..."inqiring minds want to know".
   Take care   Have fun

Thanks Frank,
Sometimes I feel like a boxer whose corner men are trying to get him to listen - stop the bleeding around his eyes - to send him back out against a superior opponent.  That oponent in this case is Time.
And it's the last couple rounds before the lights go out and The Champ is declared the winner!
And I'm glad to have you and all the guys coaching in my corner.
Maybe we can beat this one?  Hah!

First monthly Sunday breakfast meeting of the new year (2011) with the
Alberg Fleet of San Francisco.

One of the things  we do at Cafe Leila is go round the table and report what's  happening with the boat.
Brought a show and tell which was a not yet assembled lexan "pull board" for the two stacked Shurflo pumps that will live in LitGull's narrow sump.  It proved productive.  Got a bunch of tips from other narrow sump challenged owners and visited Mike's Triton in Brickyard Cove Richmond to see his bilge puimp set-up.

Hopefully I'll get it together soon and post some pics here.

Have a great productive year!

Could someone please PLEASE post pics of Little Gull before Captain Ebb sails off into the sunset??  Lots of promises, but no pics - zippo - in the last 2+ years!?? Come you guys out West, it's not like you're buried in snow or sumthin' and can't get to the boat!  :)

Quote from: mbd;22678Could someone please PLEASE post pics of Little Gull before Captain Ebb sails off into the sunset??  Lots of promises, but no pics - zippo - in the last 2+ years!?? Come you guys out West, it's not like you're buried in snow or sumthin' and can't get to the boat!  :)

Wow Mike, I am sorry.... I took some when I was out for a visit last... (?) november?  I will see what I can do. ;)

Much obliged Craig! Hope you took lots and lots!  :rolleyes:

EBB, You are a true master. its funny how artists see things differently than other artists and you hear the phrase "it is what it is "but you you made your vessel what it should have been it truly is a labor of love and an obsession of a perfectionist . My hat is off to you sir you have done a beutiful job on her

Ebb, I have been quite impressed with your efforts. I especially was attracted to the new aft exiting cockpit drains. Could you elaborate a little more about them, pipe size, problems encountered,etc. I am currently embarking on that refit and could use any advice.

Thanks, Garry
Arion, Ariel #371, Jones Creek, Baltimore,MD

Because he told me about the pics back when he took them, and I have too been eagerly awaiting a viewing :), I have a mental image of Craig sitting at home, in the middle of a pile of pictures of "Little Gull", muttering:

 "Mine, mine, yes they are all my pictures, my preciouses, yes, we can't be letting the Ariel site be seeings them, Nooooo, they gets the nasty ideas from Ebb and *steals* them, no, they are mines and Roses and ourses alone..."

(http://www.faithandgeekery.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/gollum.jpg)

:D :D :D

(Gollum image came from, interestingly enough, "faithandgeekery.com" :D )

Busted.

.... I have checked all 3 hard drives I have used since last November... and the 2 memory sticks.  I have lots of pictures, many I took on that trip...

Lil Gull does not appear in any of them... Not sure what gives... ?  

Sorry guys.

Craig, is really going to come down to money?  Really?

These do require a photo for explanation.  I'll see what I can do.

First of all, do you need deck level waterways off the boat along the sheer?
I put them in, three to a side (probably should have more) because litlgull now has an extended height toe rail.
This is a 'standup' toe rail like a bulwark rather than a CAP RAIL.
Caprails which are trim pieces you attach to the top of the existing molded toerail
are an addition you find on the Alberg Triton.

Cap rails on an Ariel would not imco raise the level enough to cause a water problem on deck.
Talking about taking water aboard and getting its weight off the deck pronto.
If you are adding something like the upright rail A-338 has, then this is what we did.

As I say I'll find some pixs.
Tony wanted to see thse scuppers close up.  If I can't figure how to email them to him I'll snail them.

PreMADE SCUPPER LINER
BEFOR the wood rail was bolted on the toerail,  the new scuppers  were rough cut out of the existing molded fiberglass toerail.  
Shocking!!! When you do this you definitely are opening up the boat, you can see right in.  Inside you can see right out!  
You have ofcourse a model of what you are doing - so if the scuppers slant as they do on litlgull, cut the toe with that in mind as close as you can.  
(I'd first make and have to hand the scupper liner/shell.  Not sliced yet.)
Sawsall the toerail with a stiff small tooth bimetal blade fot the down cuts.  For the cut along the deckline, a jig saw with a straight cut small tooth bimetal (hacksaw type blade) is also good.]
If you have big curved corrners in your scupper like litlgull's no need to duplicate that in your rough-out.  Thickened epoxy.
And you can measure just how wide you have to have your new scupper liner chunks.  (At least two inches because of the toerail to deck cove.  At deck level)
Previously I had made a nice full rounded edge mold of some length - say two feet, always make more!
It's a very smooth ciabatta or bagette shape about 1 1/2" tall and about 4" wide.
Only the edges on one flat side needs the router with a big roundover bit treatment.

When ready to make up the fiberglass liner put the prepared form rounded side up on a riser (less wide than the form) so that you can easyly tightly wrap it on top and sides.  Staples, tape to the riser.
If you cover the curved 'bottom' and the sides with 1/8" lay-up of fiberglass, you'd probably never get the glass off the mold.  Even with your 'mold release': seran wrap or mylar.
So the mold form is made with three equal width pieces running  the length of the mold.  When done you knock the center piece out and the form collapses.  Obviously the three piece form is not glued together.

The inside of the fiberglass crust you make will be nice and smooth.
You have layed the glass up on seran wrap which epoxy won't stick to.  Using the thicker mylar film will give you an incredibly glassy surface. Epoxy doesn't stick to mylar.
You'll be able to use the form again, many times.
These scuppers go on the boat OPEN side UP.

You won't cut them at 90 degrees because you want the scuppers to slant aft.
The scuppers won't scoop when your rail is in the water that way.  And it looks cool.  (25 to 30 degrees.)
You cut the crusts oversize and trim them  to fit the original toerail profile after you've glued or tacked the pieces in.

You will have 'rough cut' your toerail cut outs into the boat so they are exactly at deck level.
When you position the scupper liner it will be epoxied in so that the thickness of the lay up is above deck level 1/8".  Or the thickness of the scupper shell.
This means that big water will go overboard just fine, and the morning dew will collect and descend the thru-deck pipe scupper that Pearson put in just for that purpose  (if your A/C has that feature) but that tiny 1/8" rise keeps it from dribbling  and staining  the topsides.  That's the theory.
After glue in wipe the globs and squeeze out away with alcohol/paper towels..  It will make it easier to carve the oversized liner back to the original toerail profile with your dremel and carbide burrs.?
Any imperfections can be filled with fairing compound.*

Photos show a very clean look to the alteration.  The backward slant of the scuppers are all exactly the same.  Since that show surface (the inside of the shell) was never worked on and is the same as all the others and pristine.  
Your caprail or toerail extension bridges the scuppers - so you will have remember to varnish underneath.

You may feel that you should reinforce the scupper liners from underneath with added strips of X-matt.  Prop ply pieces topped  with mylar  underneath the holes with slightly oversized wet strips of X-matt to make a bottom.   Mylar topped jigs should fall away after set.  You'll be extending the original deck out to the hull at the inside deck level - there will be a little filling to do.  Can glue a bit of backing in the side holes so that when you glue  the liner in it isn't  suspended in the hole on  thin cutouts.  Depends on how you approach this upgrade.


You may discover that the new scupper will itself do an excellent strong job closing the hole.
There are a hundred ways to do this project.  This is sort of how it was done on litlgull.
Some may recall that litlgull's toerail cove INSIDE was filled with strips of wood and mishmash to the inside level of the deck molding.  This made bolting the standup toerail a little easier and arguably stronger.
 When I violated the old toerails I already had sufficient 'backup' for glueing in the scupper liners.
Hope this helps.
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*fairing compound.  You can make your own or buy West System's 407 powdered fairing compound.  They also have a 410 fairing material, don't use that.  The 407 is a structural formula of fumed silica and phenolic microspheres.  When mixed into two-part laminating epoxy it looks like a chocolate brownie mix.  Mix into any brand two-part epoxy.  Sets hard but is fairly easy to sand and fairs to feather edge.  It will withstand a hot deck and can be used below the waterline.  
 Won't say I'm in the business of recommending, but the 407 is the ONLY PRODUCT of West System's that I will use.
[MSDS for Malaysian phenoset microspheres admits to trace amounts formaldehybe.] Dust mask.

The following photos follow up on the above scupper discussion.

#1 shows a cast bronze quarter plate for a split back stay.  Note that the toe rail gutter is originally and still open at the stern.

# 2 shows the port bronze chain plates.  They are tilted to the angle of each shrouds.  Fastenings are 1/2" strut bolts.

#3 shows a port scupper. Note that the scupper slants aft.  Scuppers are a separate liner that is glued in place.

#4 shows the three scuppers on the port side.  The wood rail closes off the top of these openings.  Not made for leading rope.

w e l l . . . . . .
What led  to such chunky rails was making a wide allowance for the big hole in the top for the 3/8" hex bolt, washer and socket wrench.   So while I went with 1 1/2"  to cover the molded toerail I thought couldn't chamfer much more than leaving an inch width on top.   There's a full inch for the long bolts up front but that inch  widens as the rail height gets shorter as it goes toward the stern.
Rails were to be rounded.  Allowance for that also widened the top because you don't want to round in way of the bung holes.

Don't know why but when I spied  down the newly installed rail from stem to stern
a HUMP  appeared in what should have been a deadflat LochNess shot.  It wasn't a true monster because the old jack plane  only took a few shaves to get it straight.
But then I took to measuring port and starboard sides to get them absolutely the same.
You know, measuring the sides at one foot intervals along the whole tapering rail  
The rail is about 4" tall at the bow and about 2" at the transom.
Then I thought a TINY TINY bit of curve in the  rail sheer would look sexy.  
And it only took a few shaves.
But both sides HAD to be the same.....
So before I woke up they was shaved down to the bronze carriage bolt tops.  A half dozen bungs on each side  now were reduced to paper-thin disks that wafted out of the holes.  Ahh mean STUPID!

So now I've got to put  a cap on the rail to cover my excesses.
Already got most of a thin cap rail milled out of IPE which I won't varnish OR oil.  Just another damn consequence...
Very well might paint the new toerails
so I won't have them always nagging at me.


#1)   The backstay quarter plate is extra long because the transom was going to be dolled up with a fancy log of varnished mahogany.
But I'll forgo that I think because now I can SEE the error of putting any more weight where the hell you don't want it.

Really GOOFED on the rails.  It looks to the eye that the  rail leans outward.
I thought I switched port and starboard when the rails were straight before mounting.
But it is a  problem that becaime more evident as the truncated rails were sprung into place, bolted and tightened up.  You don't know how hard it was to bend those suckers.
I could hire a WOODWORKER to pare back the outside of the rail - in place.  Straightening up the apparent lean would make the top less wide AND make it easier to fit a narrower cupped caprail.  Don't trust myself.  
There is also the consideration that the outer surface of the rails are now IN TENSION from springing them and may not like to be shaved.  Grain might want to pop loose, dunno.  Seen it happen.
Can't afford to hire. And if I put on a  IPE rubrail and PAINT the toerail another color besides white.....
the problem will go away!  Yeah right!

#3 & #4)   Notice in the scupper shots that the toerail wood and the toerail plastic show  a higher seam than where the deck to hull seam used to be!  About an inch and a half below.
That old seam has disappeared (we hope).  At least I don't see it there anymore under the Awlglitz.   Note that pricelss sweep only the painter sees on the inside of the scuppers.  Like that stuff!
Untreated IPE for the rubrail here.
Everything is bedded with butyl.


Want critque PLEASE.  I'm not here  with  thumbs in my armpits wiggling my fingers.
"Ebb, you take that stoopid rail off the boat.  How many pounds you got out there?
Fill in those nasty scupper thingies too... you'd be sailing by now if you didn't mess around with all this dumb sh........":D

Nice work Ebb.  

How about a long genoa track on top of the toerail?  It could go from the shrouds to the transom.  Nice for when you are drifting through the doldrums and you're flying everything including your nightshirt.  

You might not need to put a cap on the entire length of the toerail.  Or how about a bronze striker plate as a cap.  

Being able to mount stanchions tubes against the toerail is a big plus.  

What about your anchor chocks?  Such great choices when you have a toerail.  

Ben

Ben,  You are absolutely right on about not having to cap the whole length of the rail.
I didn't SEE that until you mentioned it.  But niow it's mine!
I screwed up the front third of the rails. so a wooden cap could be applied from the front to the chainplates.
The chain plates cut into the rail.  I feel I have  to cap that area of the rail but I will wait until the mast is rigged to see where the plates end up.

Might fatten the rail up where the three plates dig in and make up a wider cap to dress it.
So the capping could end there.  Aft of that could have  T-bar for the gennies.

Need help with that.  I've read discussions where choices are mentioned:
Track on the rail.
Track on deck beside the rail.
Track curved.
Track straight.
Track on the deck by the cabin.
Track at a slant pointing at the stemhead.

These tracks will take tremendous loads and have to be in the right place.
It will be a PITA to nut the bolts in the aft part of the boat.  Smoke and mirrors.


I've salivated for years at Herreschoff inspired inrail hardware.  Especially dapped in mid rail chocks for leading the spring lines.  Or skene chocks at the bow and stern.
There's no way around it,   I'd have to make models of what I believe is correct for leading lines off the boat.   - with the idea of getting them cast.  The bronze in-rail chock I've seen has sharp edges.
Catalog skene chocks are completely stupid to me unless the warp is led from directly  ahead.

And ofcourse lines at the bow come aboard at all angles.  Even  Davies chocks (see the catalog at greenboatstuff) and chock/cleats are not correct imco.  All this hardware available has hard abrupt edges that will saw through  nylon in a blow.
The only bronze skenes I've seen that Litlgull could wear are the ones Tim Lackey has on his Triton 381.   Aren't available anymore.
Have to see this stuff from the chaffing gear point of view and the illogical angles that rope comes aboard a boat.
The position of chocks on our rounded transom  also presents a potential chaffing problem because of  cleat location.  Could use skenes here but you'd immediately have 'sharp' edge problems.  
Some of the original Pearson cast aluminum cleats (chocks?) have a nice plump character and might be translated to hollow bronze castings with soft corners....  Dreamer.

Man, she's a looker, Ebb.  Thank you Bill for adding these pics and thanks Ebb for the explanations.  If I remember I milled our mahogany down to 2 3/4" high.  It's been a few years ago and I can't say for sure but I know I didn't have the guts to go 4 inches.  I probably should have though it looks right to my eye.  I was planning on running the lead tracks on top of the rail starting from 14"-18" aft of the midship chocks back 6 feet as that is the length of the tracks I have (again, if I recall correctly:rolleyes:).  I worry incessantly about the stress but everyone has told me if you use the proper sized screws to mount the tracks it won't come off unless you're doing something stupid.  Which I may do.  I'm thinking lot o' bedding to ward off rot.

I got six bronze rail chocks years ago in anticipation of finishing her earlier.  Yeah, we all know how that is turning out.  I'm hoping the rail doesn't 'spring apart' when we start cutting into it to mount the chocks!  I got the C232BP's.

Hey Tony,
THERE are those bronzes!
How could you not like that 'mid rail chock/cleat' fitting?
It would schmooze nicely into the new wood rail.  On lit'lgull's rail there would even be some wood left UNDER the chock.

Looking at the 'Bronze G Chock' you can't miss the hard edges.  Imco this applies to the herreschoff midrail.
I've not taken these but similar skene's and tried them on the transom with a natural lead from deck cleats.  I could not find a fair lead through the skenes that imco didn't have  chaffing problems.

I got a couple of those Panama Canal chocks from Spartan and tried them on the transom.
(Can't locate them right now in the garage - time to do a complete inventory.)
If I remember they seemed  kind of GAWKEY - awkward - even though they'd be useful.*
The fitting is tall for its base.  If these were mounted to the curve of our transom and the cleats were in the usual place (in the middle of the space between the locker lid and the toes rail) the lead of the line through the horns would be across two corners of the fitting.  The corners are rounded sort of but not enough for me.  Could mount the chocks more in line with the cleat but imco that looks wrong and becomes a fastening problem inside the lazarette.  I'm still looking for the right fitting.  Something more rounded and plump and easy on rope.

The fittings could be altered/rounded with files and burrs.
But then it occured to me that these fittings are tight within the designer's concept and any rounding would possibly weaken it.  Had to metally discard them.  Even though I really liked that midrail......snif.

We protect rope with chaffing gear.  BUT  chafe protection imco BEGINS with the chock or cleat.

I got some well rounded stainless chocks at a boatshow once.  They kind of leaned and were extreme deco -  and you could figure eight a line across the horns like a cleat if you had to.
When I got them to the boat they would barely fit on the transom rail and looked like they had been canabilized off a power boat.  Couldn't stomach it.

Hope the rail scupper pix are useful.  Don't remember if I took any chop and slop pics of the process.  But there must be enuf clues in the verbiage.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
*We've just had that Japan tsumami  find its way ACROSS THE PACIFIC into a couple harbors here on the California coast that made the news.  Crescent City harbor  was mangled pretty bad.  Santa Cruz harbor, which is essentially a marina, had a sudden two foot surge that sunk twenty boats damaged hundreds more and tore docking apart.  Ariels apparantly OK. (See Discussion page for videos.)
Murphey's law always applies to boats - if it can it will happen.
All lines leading to a boat should be through CLOSED CHOCKS.  One wave, One twist, turn, nod of the boat can panama a rope out of an open chock.

Henry Nevins' boat Polly II had these beautiful chock.  Cast at the Nevins foundry no doubt.  

(http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u72/Parlordoor/m247885-r.jpg)

Owning your own foundry might help.  How about having a size appropriate set of these made?  They look good on the Formosa 51.

That hardware installation looks bollocks to me.  
Stating the obvious: would anybody lead line overboard with knife edge  like that?  Tear the chaffing gear to shreds.
It says alot about the designer, builder, and  the idiot who buys it.
Greenboatstuff shows a Davey and Co bronze version of this bollard.  Smallest size is 12" and will set you back $578.  Not including S&H.
 
Davey has a beautiful open top horney cleat #1078 -chock/cleat - that comes in four reasonable sizes.  Prices start at $33.  They also have small well rounded bronze bollards #1126 in four sizes, starting at $47.
Befor you order from greenboatstuff ask if they have it in stock, otherwise it'll be months.  It happened to me.  The web site takes a little getting used to, also.

I can see these bollards being used at the bow and stern INSTEAD OF SKENE CHOCKS on our boats.  Have not actually tried them.
Lines in both locations, depending on the size bollard, would be 'corner to corner' through the bollard.
The bollards posts are round - EXCELLENT!  And the base is rounded - EXCELLENT!  
Have to allow for line size and chaffing gear.

I haven't got one in my hands, BUT the question arises:
can the bollard be drilled for a clevis pin across the top, or near the top, to capture the line?:cool:
Being bronze it may be a reasonable alteration.  And the loose pin  used only when needed.  Like  going through the Panama.  Or leaving the boat untended.

Could fancy it up with one side of the bollard  being threaded and the pin screwed into place.  No cotters.
It only takes more time and more money!
Davey & Co. does custom work.....
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________'
Later edit:
Brits being weird Brits, there is nobody in the UK including Davey that gives the dimensions or a dimensional drawing of these bollard/chocks -
except that they are so many inches long and one assumes that refers to the base (rather than the opening between the posts, which it could be) - and the width of the base.  One might extrapolate enuf data to make a somewhat acciurate drawing of the fitting.  However fine tuning a size to the bow toerail (they'd have to be mounted somewhat inboard imco because of space limitations in the forepeak.  The width of the base is an important consideration.  The bollards are highly sculptural and making a model would be difficult.  Greenboatstuff is no help either, better ask what their return policy is?

Have you seen this chock?

http://www.historicalarts.com/products/show/681

(http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u72/Parlordoor/681_large_00681_20061101082026.jpg)

Or this one?

http://www.historicalarts.com/products/show/682

(http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u72/Parlordoor/682_large_00682_20061009163124.jpg)

Thanks Ben,
Had forgot about the Rostand collection.  Visited that Historical Arts site a couple times but don't find it too visitor friendly.
But I think both fittings are worthy of further inquiry.
Must say my first take of the SELF-LOCKING BOLLARD CHOCK was more like seeing a Victorian sausage making tool than a rope cradle.
No. 2447 (comes in 5" and 6" length)  the base of the larger one is 1 1/4" wide.  Estimating:
  The height inside the chock is 1 1/2".  It is just under two inches wide at the thinest point of the bollards, which are about 1/2" wide there.  Stated rope size is 'UP TO 1".  The blade keeper is 1/2" wide, but there is no way of knowing how thick it is or how it is closed and opened.  Would assume 5/16" FHMS bronze fasteners.   Imco this fitting is  light to medium duty, kind of pretty but not robust.


Ole fisheye wants to see the locking mechanism of the keeper befor even asking about the cost
I mean if you bend the blade off a little nipple or somthing like a cabinet latch, it becomes problematic.
I'm trying to imagine streaming a drogue off the stern in a howling storm.

The bollard itself is beautiful.  Looks like the pattern was lifted from an already well used original!

Hey Ebb, it looks like Deep Blue Yacht Supply (http://www.deepblueyachtsupply.com/deck-hardware/skene-type-chocks) carries chocks similar to Tim Lackey's. I got my mooring bit from them and was happy with the company. Buck Algonquin - you can get them in various sizes and bronze too.

Geeze, Mike.  I wish I had known about DBYS before I jumped...  Those mooring bits look much more substantial than the one we bought.  And now I'd feel bad selling it to someone else because I know there is a better piece at a better price out there.  Who ever would have thought it would be this tough to have a conscience.

Ebb it's dang near warm enough for me to break into deep storage.  I'll take some close ups of the mid-rail chocks so you can get a feel on the curves.  They are not as smooth as the locking/captive chock Ben posted above.  Thems smooooth! I wonder, can one file and polish burnished bronze?  That may be a way to 'soften' those edges (which are getting progressively knifeier with each passing minute in my mind).

Mike, Good BuckAlgonquin source there. Thanks.
Tony, imco you definitely can mess with bronze.
Can file and grind hard edges rounder and buff them back without sneezing.
I wouldn't try it with stainless.

Thing  I discover is it is too  easy to think up an upgrade.
When I get into the new project, IT takes over.  I stop thinking.  Little problems happen.
And the unretrievable seconds disappear into months and years.
Tim Lackey's skenes are almost perfect.  All he did was get lucky and bolt them in place.
There is nothing he had to do to make them better.

The HA Rostand shenes are fine for casual tying up.
Without a straight-on view of the fitting the dimensions can't be extrapolated.  But they seem rather flat. (While Mike's Buckaroonie looks quite round inside like Tim's.)  Casting looks strong and handsome.
BUT there isn't much room in the Skene Bow Chock for a chaffing wrap on the line,  maybe the 6" size has to be used.
I'm convinced that warps and rodes should be at least 5/8" six or eight braid specific anchor line.
And the type of chaffing stuff should be something that disapates heat and lets in cooling waterm - not sure what that stuff is.  
It isn't hard garden hose but something more porus and probably thicker.
The bollard looks OK - in the straight on picture - but what happens to the space between the horns when you turn the fitting?  If a line is coming off a cleat at an angle to the chock, how much
of a twist in the chock cancels out the space for the line, wrapped line?  The line can't make a jog through the horns.  Has to be fair.

I'm serious about decent leads off the boat and I may have to take the TIME
to make a clay model from the photos because vendors don't ever give compleat dimensionss of fixtures.  Probably because the manufacturer  doesn't think e nwant it either.

Have a picture on the kichen wall that came from the cruisersforum site years ago.
http://www.cruisersforum.com/attachments/gallery/1/0/0/cleat_origin..
That won't come up, but it is a cleat/chock combo that is attached at the RAIL.
The cleat is on the inside, lower than the chock, and sideways, horizonal with the deck - the chock is on top of the rail.  It is a single molded bronze fitting.  The base of the cleat turns the corner up onto the rail and becomes the rounded throat of the chock.  Nice.  Sculpting coud be bollarde/rounded better.
 
The rail on the A/C is probably too short for this fitting from a larger boat - but it's clever. If you are onboard with the concept,
our rail (with maybe a wood cap) could have a nice rounded bronze skene-chock on it - and a strong cleat  mounted somehow very close with the chock but bolted through the deck.  Wanna try it?  Problem is the pull is UP on the bolts rather than in shear as in the mystery dual fitting.

The mystery fitting is shown with a rope eye around the cleat led thru the open chock.
The plaits of the eye splice are overboard, free, and not rubbing on anything.
No wad of chaffing gear is needed except for, say, leathering the eye maybe
because there is no line to stretch and wear from mooring cleat  to a rail chock like we normally have.
What's great is that the line is instantly available by slipping the eye or undoing  turns off the cleat.
It's impossible to imagine the line crawling out of this fitting.   Somebody was thinking here!

The A/C bow could have nice rounded bronze chock/cleats if you can find them.  Warps could alternately lead from inboard mooring cleats or samson post to opposite sides:  EG port cleat to starboard chock, to get a better fairer lead off the boat.

Wouldn't the "fairest" lead be straight over the bow? Why not set up an anchor roller or something similar on your stemhead fitting to use for a mooring line?  You could capture the line with a big enough u-bolt bolted through the deck for extra security. It could do double-duty to contain your anchor line when not on a mooring.

Aye! It would be, Mike, the fairest lead.
This boat  may have another piece of lumber or aluminum up there on the bow.  The lead could be from an inboard samson post. It's going to be complicated losing weight from the bow, but it's serious now!  IE, litlgull will have drastic measures to remove weight from the bow.

But I'm also prejudiced against using the anchor roller channel as a fair lead for rope.  For anchoring.
That's certainly what they have become, especially the longer ones that  bolt to a good piece of the deck and  become a short bowsprit.  Strong enough to take the weight of the boat.  O sure!  But structural and load data for a ULB-3 doesn't exist.

Really don't know, do I, but in a blow the only secure lead off the boat  will be over a big bolted chock on the rail. not the anchor housing.  Afterall it's only sheet metal:eek:
Don't remember where I got convinced, but an anchor roller's only job is to launch and retrieve its anchor and  lead chain.  After the anchor is set its warp and chaffing gear  moves over to a rail chock.  Move the warp back into the launcher when bringing it back aboard.  Should be able to reach over and pick it up and move it....no stanchions or pulpit tube in the way.
 
And the anchor  ought to be removed from the launcher whilst underway.  Of this I've been persuaded.   Is this a Pardey thing?  Nope, it's a weight thing.

That anchor and roller gear will weigh in at 35/45lbs  out there on the nose.  Plus the weight of a second anchor and any chain and rode in the forepeak.
The mouth of the  roller should lead rope fair but it doesn't. The bugle is only designed to retrieve chain and anchor from straight down or straight ahead.  It's also possible to bend the roller especially if it is cantilevered without an added strut. More weight.

There recently was a UTube video that showed an untended moored boat dipping and lifting its bow in  a blow.  The boat danced and dipped in a wave and came up with the mooring rode caught in the anchor fluke housed in  the roller.  Then the bow of the boat started tearing itself apart.  And pulling the boat under.  In this case the boat was moored and the anchor was the boat's anchor ready to be deployed.*
 Lesson one: It's nice and tidy to keep your anchor where any line off the bow can hook on to it.  It can happen even  in a marina.  There was/is a picture that showed the very thing happened in a slip.

I'm convinced that IDEAL leads from a chock off the rail should be universally fair, no sharp angles.
Should lead fair at any angle: aft - forward - down.  Down and to the side. sideways at any angle.
UP?
Of course, YES to that.  That Rostand bollard with the blade closer would be hard, me thinks, on  nylon surging in a rising Panama lock where lines lead up to the canal sides far above. Or a pier or a wall in a big tide harbor.

If you are going to fair lead the painter through the roller, maybe the keeper loop over the channel should be better thought out and stronger than the flimsy looking bars and straps that came with store-bought rollers.


*There is a strong case for anchoring - if we insist on keeping the rode/chain in  the anchor-roller channel - by using a simple piece of gear called
THE TURTLE.
[Reese Palley, There Be No Dragons: How to cross a big ocean in a small sailboat. Sheridan House 1998, pgg 116/117]

The Turtle is a short piece of nylon line with a chain hook at its outer end,
connected to the boat AT OR NEAR THE WATERLINE to an eye or special strong bronze fitting.

Take the tension off the anchor roller by hooking the chain or rolling hitch to the warp and have the turtle take the weight of the chain.
No chafe on the nylon. As we might get if rigging a bridle at deck level.
We've lowered the 'lever' effect of the anchor rode by taking it off the bow and putting it nearer the waterline.
Thereby inncreasing the scope.
And if we are using all chain rode, we've cancelled the noise the link makes in the roller.
A decklevel BRIDLE can be used to take the weight of the warp away from the anchor roller.  It, itself will have some chafe issues when leads are not symetrical.  It is rigged too high on the boat to be really useful in worsening conditions.

Hey Bill et al,

Here, finally, are some pics - in series - showing the boat's new pump board installation.

A piece of leftover 3/8" Lexan with a shelf added to hold the high water Shurflo 1500 8Amp,
and a couple small bronze screws (can't be seen) to hold the screen clip bracket on the small Shurflo 1000 3.75 Amp.

The small pump is mounted on one side and at the very bottom with its hose pointing aft "through" a 'L' shaped hole in the pull-board.

The pump and attached hose can be lifted off and removed from the unit.
The large high water pump is fitted to the board with its hose also pointed aft and held on tightly  with a nylon tie.

Assume the small pump to be replaceable - and the large expensive pump never used.
 
The WaterWitch digital sensors are screwed on to the board with their wires blue taped.
There is no room in the Ariel's narrow bilge/sump for traditional float switches.  At least not in what litlgull has behind her ballast.

For the big pump  WaterWitch has a high water alarm with a stand alone buzzer and mute fixture not shown.

Following photos show the method of making a slide holder for the board with epoxy.

The white rectangle mold is made with polyethylene sheet material.

The bilge hull sides are prepped.  The mold's two ridge shapes filled with epoxy mishmash and glued to the sides.  Not much pressure is needed to hold the molds while curing. I used balled up plastic film, jammed down in!

Because of the truncated mold shape the mold pops right off after the epoxy is hard.
 
Turns out there is just enough space to set the board in its place
It is held quite firmly when housed.

Now we have to hook up the various wires and run the hose.

Both pumps use same 1 1/8" Vinyl hose.  Small pump hose will exit into cockpit.

Large pump hose will exit high up on the hull, with syphon break loop.  Not sure just where,
but the hose for efficiency has to be as short as possible.

Now that is a sweet setup. :cool:
 
I was planning on the dual pump setup on Destiny and I really like the way that is set up. Easy to maintain which is something that will be an ongoing thing with the small pump.

Ebb,

  Very nice work!

You have the same system as I have... except;

I use an Atwood 750 for the small pump
I use a Rule 2000 (Gold) for the large pump
My buzzer is mounted up near the companionway (it is loud enough to hear in a hurricane... you can test it and hear it from the parking lot in the marina).

And (as usual).... ;)

Your install is about 100x neater, cleaner, and more photogenic then my install. :)

For more discussion of this, and the thinking that lead me to the same system you have here see this thread (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php/topic,496.0.html).

Craig,
SailFar is indeed a lively one with great posts by many sailors including yourself.
One day when my credentials are in order I'll see if I can rejoin the  SAIL FAR community.
By then I will have learned not to talk at length - but in short.

Don't know who gets credit for the bilge pump pull board idea. It's  now OURS!  Imco it is a great solution for our narrow bilges. Happy to add two more cents.
Like great music tunes, we can build on them and improvise.  (I'm on the slide whistle!)
Capt Pauley has a version.  Don't know about MaineSail.
More the merrier!

Maybe my contribution to tidying up the  sump is a method of making the slide board holders that are merely mishmash* cleats  pasted onto the sides of the bilge.
Rediculous simple to make if you have the polyethylene sheet to construct the molds.
The three polyethylene rails that make the mold-form are 1/2" tall. The width at 'top' 1/2". The base 5/8".  Tablesaw blade set off square a couple of degrees and the material just run through to make these forms.  As cast, the ridges are 1/2" wide at top, the 5/8" width is pasted to the hull.  The space between two ridges is those dimensions inverted.
 Cut extra 'rail' pieces and used them as inverted spacers.  To build the mold-form, screwed 1/4" polyethylenne to the 'bottom' wider side of the rails.   The pics above should be helpfull.
Dropped the spacers out and cut the long mold in half, cut 45 degrees at the ends of the two forms on the chopsaw and screwed on short 1/4" thick endpieces to tie the form  together.   The forms you see in the fotos are about 12" long.
 This was made from 1/2" and 1/4" scrap at hand.  Could use thin ply for the 1/4" piece with release material on the inside like seranwrap or mylar.
Certainly is possible to make this simple form with plywood and wood strips using wax as the release.   Polyethylene sheet is available from TAP Plastics and McMasterCarr.  5/8" #6 woodscrews.

When seated the pump pullboard is jammed tight - when it's lifted, it very soon is free of the confines of the new guides.
This is good because the pull board wants to be tilted and even turned out of the hole ASAP.
There must be a dozen more ways to hold the board, whether plastic or wood strip.


The bilge in the Ariel gets narrower going aft - that means the pull board is at a shorter angle than right angle to the hull sides.  I got lucky in this improv because it worked out that there was just enuf room for the 3/8" lexan to track and end up  tight in the slot because of the truncated  shape of the space between the guides.
It also turned out that the sides of the keel way down in there are pretty straight and the straight molds fit flat.
[The polyethylene strips that make up the mold are quite bendy. Imco it would be entirely possible to bend these molds against  mildly curved hull sides.  You'd need a good way to hold them when filled with mishmash solidly in place against the hull until set.]
Used doorskin 'L' jigs to hold and position  the molds where they had to be,  And relative to each other.....  got lucky!
Used some "60 Second" Devcon blister pack epoxy - havn't seen that stuff befor - couple dabs
and the doorskin jigs were stuck in place.  Pretty good glue that:  after set, the ply pieces were popped off with a chisel and the carbide scrapper got the 60 second off.  Right....longer than 60 sec.
 
How often do we get to hand hold an epoxied piece in place long enuf to have it set?  60 secs  gives a bit of sliding adjustment time to get the jigs just so.
Could have used good old double side carpet tape but risked it pulling away at the wrong time!
There is just enough outward lean to the hull sides  so that the goop filled molds rested in the minimalist jigs nicely without having to be jammed in place.
But still pushed in a large ball of used plastic film  between the molds.  Nothing moved.

Thanks Jerry!
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*mishmash:  a fairly stiff mix of 2-part laminating epoxy, chopped strand, and fumed silica.  Befor positioning the loaded molds on the jigs, scrub the prepared areas with a bristle brush and liquid epoxy.  Not too much, just prime.  If it is wet, wipe it 'dry' with paper towel.  Insurance that
the guides will bond to the hull.  If you've slathered the temporary plywood jig holders, pop them off before the epoxy fully sets so that they don't become permanent!
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Went with Shurflo because around the net there aren't many complaints about them I could find.  The 1500 on the board has 6' of head
Recently Practical Sailor did a comparison test of submersible bilge pumps - Shurflo came out on top I believe.  Surprisingly so did a Rule.  The philosophy of the two pump pull-board  is a good one (altho my interpretation may be off).  And the concept seems to be specifically designed FOR the Ariel/Commander sump area.   Any Alberg.
A smaller, cheaper pump sits close to the bottom and does all the menial work.  It's not THAT cheap but certainly cheaper than the bigger one mounted above it.... that is set up with a highwater alarm that has a remote dial and mute button.  
In theory the big one is the standby and will always be fresh and eager when needed.  It would be possible to to mount an even larger pump, but I worry  what the draw would be - not that it would matter when trying to stay afloat in the middle of the ocean.
I can't see WHERE even one traditional float switch can be put into our sump?  That's why we went with the WaterWitch system.   Both pumps should have a manual toggle over-ride in case the WaterWitch sensors don't work.   There may be other digital systems out there.   Hoses from a couple manual lift pumps also need access in those tight quarters.  There's only room for hose ends in litlgull's sump.
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If the smaller Shurflo's exit hose is up into the cockpit,  that hose can have a little bit of out-of-sight-out-of-mind location to it.
BUT, the hose that leads the big pump overboard, no matter where the thru-hull exit is in the topsides,  it will have a vacuum breaker and
also an accessible SEACOCK to shut the hole.  Where and how has not been easy to solve.  Has to be visually recognizable and easy to maintain  & work the lever.   Probably the cockpit port locker which gets fairly regular use.

And grooving with FREDDIE NYLON'S PLASTIC STUDS:
Changed horses midstream [again], assume it is an improvement.

[It's important  that the description here won't make much sense
unless it is realized that the window openings were previously prepared
by filling in the surrounding space between cabin and liner with epoxy paste.*]

Thought that 1/4", 5/16"OD, barrel nuts (sex bolts) in 304 and 316 from McMCarr was the way to go to mount  slab-on Lexan ports to the cabin sides - no hex heads, nice shiney round heads inside and out.
Had the lexan cut, rounded,  sanded, prepped, and drilled with 5/16" holes -  matched to 5/16" holes drilled thru to the inside of the cabin where the barrel nuts would be.
BUT then it FINALLY dawned on me that  poking  machine screws through sticky butyl taped lenses and marrying them up  inside with  barrel nuts wasn't an option - what would keep them from turning?  My arms weren't long enough.
And the nagging problem:  how to paint  the cabin inside with  50  blingy screw heads  poking out around  the four lights.....wasn't going to paint over them, was I?:o

So the natural choice became 1/4" 304 T- NUTS - which also happen to have a 5/16" OD barrel that is 1/2" long but with a 3/4"D  flange on one end and really sharp stamped spikes at 90degrees around the perimeter.  Not so sexy.
Nasty little buggers...... but could be POTTED WITH EPOXY into the cabin wall.
Found a  counterbore from McMCarr (cat.pg.2458 - a short 3/4" bit with a 5/16" interchangable smooth pilot that would, and did, precisely counter-bored the inside 5/16" holes into 3/4" diameter holes.
- drilled out each location stopping the countersink just at the cabin molding!!!:eek:  Used a sharpie pen to depth mark the bit, and drilled easy-does-it.

 At this point plain nutz,  prepped EACH T-nut with  Dremel sanding disks, scuffing up all reachable surfaces so that the epoxy gel filler had more surface area to stick to.  Made up some temporary thread protection by screwing polyethylene** all-thread pieces into each barrel - loaded up each of the 52  fittings with gel using a 2oz syringe (TAP Plastic) and pressed each gooper into its perfectly sized hole.
Was going to use the plastic all-thread pieces to position  T-nuts exactly in the hole relative to the cabin exterior - but normal s.s. nuts proved to be too tight to turn onto the plastic.

Cabin sides - previously filled with epoxy goop between the cabin and the liner -
have some  variation in overall thickness around the window cutouts.  T-nuts with a 1/2" length barrel worked for almost every location (also had some 3/8" barrel length on hand, just in case) - and stayed exactly where they were pressed in wet.
The T-nut flange in almost very hole inside ended up slightly below the surface of the liner inside.
The holes are now disappeared and the surface,   faired with goop and 407.
There's NO telltale around the window openings (What stinkun T-nuts?)  and there is instead an uninterrupted new coat of white primer.

Will mount  Lexan with 1/8" offWHITE butyl tape.   Squeeze out is inevitable - and necessary.  Controling squeeze-out has to be done by introducing O-rings or washers around each screw as the lexan is positioned for the install.  The light bronze tinted lex is clear - the butyl is white - and nearly all O-rings are black or red.  Maybe 6/6Nylon washers, which are white.  An alternative are 1/16" thick and fairly narrow polycarbonate washers (from McMC) that are clear, more durable, more pricey, and maybe just mo'betta.
Screw length has to be watched. T-nuts are open on both ends.  
Could turn them in and run them out the now blind  end into the cabin - will try to avoid this as the butyl tape is squeezed to its final thickness.
  Each fitting had a piece of  plastic all-thread screwed in that  filled the entire barrel thread to the bottom of the flange - keeping epoxy out.  The  plastic studs also provided an indispensable 'handle' for holding, gooping and positioning.  And also, screwed all the way into the flange allowed filling the shallow dips inside with epoxy gel.  Hard to figure how this ballet is done without these so convenient plastic allthread studs.

Wanted to use a nut on the allthread outside to draw the gooped up T-nut into alignment  - wasn't possible.
But it seems the process worked anyway.   After  epoxy set every  piece of plastic  backed out leaving  clear thread all the i/2" way into the flange and the cosmetic evidence of NO fastenings around the windows inside.  The counter bore allowed the T-nuts no wiggle room  to move out of alignment.  Some are probably out of square - a little.  Have to assume Incurable Curmudgeon drilled the original holes square.
Anybody want any virgin sex bolts?
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Don't know if this really wants pointing out.  
Recently had a short exchange at an Alberg Fleet breakfast with a new Triton owner who had just epoxy glued his polycarbonate slabs to the cabin sides!  
Certainly simple and direct....I think.  
Conceivably the immobilized polycarbonate - which is more flexible and gummy than the cabin - could move with heat and cold and stay stuck.  If  acrylic is used it will shatter,  imco, without question.  He had visited a circumnavigator's yacht and seen, first hand,  lexan lights that were glued on that way - and  said to have gone around the world with nary an errant leak....
Only the French can do stuff like that! :D
If your cabin is 1/4" fiberglass laminate and you cut some holes in it to let the light in....
you might glue some 1/4" polycarbonate over the holes to keep the water out - and hope all movement and flexing will equalize and keep the windows in place.
 I still don't think it'll work on any Alberg.... and said so.

The receiving T- nuts potted into the cabinside in the above ap are as immobile as the cabin sides.  The 3/8" plastic lens floats on a pad of  ever flexible butyl  tape.  
1/4" PHMS are screwed in through slightly oversized 5/16" holes in the lens  with a fat EPDM washer under the head  against the plastic.  Could almost argue these screws, or rather the plastic lenses, are  'floating' .
Have to hope there is room enough in the thru-holes for the lexan to breathe a little.  Maybe no.
 I guess we'll have to see what happens.
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*     The window openings in the cabin of A338 some time ago  had their perimeters filled - the very approximate 1/2" space  between the cabin  and the liner inside the cabin - with epoxy mishmash.  
This fix isolates the window openings from any water intrusion into the liner which exits inside over the shelves at the hullsides in as-built Ariels.  
This process consequently  stiffens and supports the cabin sides in way of the huge openings.   Upgrade has been described here and in other threads.
**  Mentally stuck on this material.  On going back into the McMC catalog discovered there isn't any polyethylene threaded rod.  So it has to be Nylon.  Epoxy doesn't stick to this material either.  I found the 6' long threaded piece sticking out of a tube in a corner of the shop and just ASSUMED.  Easy to cut, of course, but very hard to make it easy to screw into a nut, the end has to be clean and trimmed just right.  This material also comes as STUDS in the McMC catalog,  Suggest that, if you thunk this single-use method of keeping the threads clear of glue is worth it,  you spring for the studs.  They easily screw into the T-nutz.   1 1/2" would be my choice.

Update.
This IS the easy way to mount lexan lenses.
And it may not be the best waterproof way - have my doubts because I cheated on the number of fastenngs - but maintenance-wise it IS the only way,  because the windows can be removed in a trice, recaulked,  replaced  without really sweating it. 3/8" p.carbonate is very stiff stuff,  it looks impossible to draw fastenings tight enough to bend waves into the sheet.  The system does not call for bonding, fastenings are not torked.
Butyl tape comes onsite in a cooler after being unrolled cold from storage in the fridge at home, cut to approximate length with Fiskars and rolled back up into a loose roll..  Still sticky when cold but not sticky sticky.

Place lens on a packing quilt inside up, unroll butyl around the perimeter bearing surface.  Use an awl to locate and open  holes in the butyl - and from the underside (outside) press thru  1/4" PHMS  that each have a 3/32" thick EPDM washer pressed on against the head.  The 5/8"D rubber  washers seat into a 1/16" deep counterbore in the plastic.   EPDM  is very squishy under pressure and needs the countersink rim to help keep  its shape.  Doesn't always work.  (PHMS  can of course be backed out later and a s,s, washer added on top of the rubber one to get more even  pressure.)

The tape is getting warmer the more time it takes to push the screws thru.  But the screws get more-or-less stuck to the tape holes and the 1/16" thick clear polycarbonate spacer washer can be dropt over the threads and pressed into the butyl.  The piece can be rotated to work on - or break for lunch and left unattended - there's no viscous tube goop to skin over or make a mess!  Don't need gloves.
The lens can be picked up, all pieces stuck,  and taken to the window opening.  Two nylon studs partially screwed in on the bottom row serve as locators to position the lens.  Again, NO MESS!  Then feel for the T-nut and happily turn each PHMS home.
Miscalculated what the finished length of the screws was to be, so had to changeout longer  for shorter, ending up with 3/4".  However if hard washers need to be added to cap the rubber washers, the longer ones (7/8") could be back again.  We'll see.

Must go without saying that all the time the windows were handled:  marked, cut, routed, sanded, drilled and scuffed, the protective plastic films inside and out were carefully left on the pieces.  Film got a little ratty and corners came unstuck - but the polycarbonate has to be kept covered during the whole process.
This is especially the case  when the plastic is tinted or UV treated (which means it has an inside & outside)
- a scratch on this techy sheet  canNOT be buffed out.

As the fourth window was being attached, it happened that the very last screw (really!) did not meet up with its inside partner.  It was an empty hole.  NO T-nut.  WHAT the hell...  
Couldn't believe it.   Did ALL the holes.  So I located the well-used and pretty dull counerbore* and began to drill in the 3/4"D T-nut bore I had somehow missed.  Peeked thorugh the hole and saw that it matched the hole in the lens.  But immediately hit hard shiney metal and DIDN"T bust a carbide.  The T-nut was there alright,  but off by a half an inch or so embedded like an aching wisdom tooth.  Still shaking my head, that second hole: what happened?
Got it out. Royally screwed up the integrity of the surrounding liner, filler, and ancient cabin polyester -  regooped it, rebuilt it, redrilled it, repotted the T-nut - and now the repair awaits  primer and the remounting of the fourth lens.
Damn refurbishing gods, how do I get on their wrong side?
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* This counterbore plus one pilot costs about $50.  Found at the bottom of pg 2458 in the online MMCarr catalog.  Like a champ it drilled more than fifty 3/4" wide holes 1/2" deep in the old cabin liner and new epoxy filler.  That would add up to about two feet of solid polyester, glass and epoxy for that HSS bit.  
BUT the four flute bit can have the flute bottoms hand honed  leaving the  sides untouched - as sharpening them would change the counterbore's diameter!   For its use on the boat here, its exact diameter bore contributed to the success of the job.  It is conceivable that in the future more T'nutz and PHMS may have to be added to make the lenses more waterproof.  With a steady hand,  extra fastenings can  be drilled for IN PLACE.  Disassembled, fine tuned, rebedded,  maybe TefGelled,  and returned to the cabinside.  Extra work but  do-able.
Might describe counterbores as flat bottom countersinks.  The bit leaves a clean flat surface exactly at 90 degrees to the pilot.
[Now have added more pilots and a 5/16" to the  5/8" counterbore (used for the EPDM washer) so that adding  fastenings later with the lens in place can in theory be done.[

TEFGEL
[recently Forespar introduced their teflon anti-corrosion product: (not KY for stallions)MareLube TEF45 - 45 refers to their formula having 5% more teflon than Tefgel (making it 5% better obviously!] ,  
must be considered to ultimately waterproof this system.  PHMS are 316, T-nuts are 304 - in salt they should be isolated.  If any screws get backed out they may get TefGelled.   But the butyl should perform as hoped:  stay forever sticky between the lens and the cabinside, won't let any water under pressure inside (doesn't get displaced),   EPDM washers form a seal under each head,  and butyl squished in around threads creates the waterproofing.....want to assume the embedded T-nut is far enough removed from exposure  not to need any extra protection.  Famous last words.
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Bills next post won't make any sense,  because there was an idiot's post here, must have been mine - fortunately now erased.   Hope this cabin window stuff is credible.
Apologise for exercising Bill's incredible patience!!!!:D

Ebb, you were able to edit a long post (#391) at 6:41 AM today??  I just edited your 7:37 AM long post (#392) with none of the problems  you describe.  Maybe the problem is with your computer or LAN?

CABIN WINDOWS
Approached the decision of 'slabbing-on' polycarbonate windows rather piecemeal.  Only now, after the four lenses are installed, is there a whole picture - and how it might have been done better and less awkward.

The pan head machine screws bother me  - now that the job is done.
The 316 PHMS  come from McMasterCarr.  Precisely made.  Big heads  flat rounded.  Rim around the bottom of the head is also rounded slightly.   That makes them stand out like military buttons, even directly on the rubber washers.  They look like they are adrift from the work & not snugged up properly.  When focused on other projects around the boat these 'proud' fastenings seem to grab the eye...  Annoying.
 
Know  same  RHMS size with  phillips eyes are smaller in diameter and completely flat on the bearing surface.  Even if they are a bit taller than the pans, they'd appear tidy - their smaller cross holes less significant than the pan's extra large.  Less head diameter dictates  metal washers added on top of the 5/8" rubber ones - imco they are needed anyway under turning screws to protect soft rubber from deforming.  The effect would be compact, integrated and correct.  Ahdono about professional - shuda done it the first time.

THUS & SO
This IS about aesthetics:  Too expensive now, but 1/4"  316  HEXHEAD capscrews for the lenses would have been pretty nice.   We think of hex heads as a meat and potato fastener,  but when you open the white boxes  from McMCarr they bling like metalic crystals.  And about as pricey!  Each set, nut-washer-screw,  perfectly matched.  The heads, especially nice,  are half the height of the PHMS,  much classier and have no EYES.   The dodger should have been installed with these too.  Faceted heads in small sizes are much less busy  than  cross-eyed attention grabbers.


MAST
More practical:  After the experience removing #8-20  RH phillips sheet metal screws from the mast track - spinning power bits round in  defiant heads with the cordless hammmerdrill ..... making it necessary to grind them off and drill them out....  came upon the great notion...  that the screws being trashed were not only softer metal than the bits but also not a smart design for turning.
Potted LED blinks on in cortex: what's the point of driving one hundred hole-in-head screwpins back into the track again,  when some day,  for sure,   they'll  ruin another fool's day?
Got a better idea?   S u r e .
#8-32 316 HEX  machine screws. (1/4" W head, less than 1/8" H)   Perfect fit in the channel of the old 7/8" s.s. T track.  Including the driver socket.
Not only will they look better  but use a common driver that's designed for metal work and comes in choices.  Why do we insist on using a POINTY bit to remove these dreaded embedded agitators when a nut driver or wrench  or socket will do a much better job with a SIX POINT HEADLOCK!:eek:

And rather than appearing SO yachtsy fartsy with knobbly jewelry, suppose we use practical  hexheads wherever we can.
Saw photos on the net of a gooseneck mast plate up-grade newly mounted with cap screws.  Way more macho than cross-eyed roundheads.  
Goodlooking 316  1/4-28 capscrews!  Come as short as 3/8".  Standard head:  7/16"Wide  but only 5/32"Height.  
With the price of anything 316, slim hexhead capscrews will have the same practical look as jeans by RobertoCavalli.

[EDIT - correction]
The full range of STAINLESS 316 HEX HEAD CAP SCREWS is available with narrow(fine) thread: 1/4-28 - 5/16-24 - 3/8-24 - 7/16-20 -5/8-18 - 3/4-16 - McMasterCarr pgs 3145-3146.  They come fully threaded and partial threaded.  Partial means that the threads are stopped and a certain number of inches on the shank  are not threaded.
 
MAST THRU-BOLTS
Imco Correct  length for the 1/2" bolts for sheave and spreaders/shroud tangs makes sure that unthreaded shank rests in BOTH holes in the mast.  No fine thread  partials  come long enough.  (mast is 3 1/2" wide, OD - adding washers, plastic spacers, tangs figure 1/2" more plain = 4")    Have to use 6 1/2 - 7"  partial thread standard bolts, which have  long enough unthreaded shanks  for this app.
The shank must bear clean and threadless on the 1/8" aluminum wall in the  holes on BOTH sides.  That's the trick.

A HSS die will cut more thread if needed to  enable torqueing the nut (when all the washers and tangs are on the bolt) to close the assembly WITHOUT SQUEEZING THE MAST WALL.  Looking to wrench the nut TIGHT against the end of the thread  -  yet leave all hangers with a skoch wiggle room.  (currently hexhead 1/2" 316-13 partials from McMCarr:  nom 7" have 3 7/8" untreaded shank)
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A bit on our ALUMINUM CORROSION.   Please correct me where I'm wrong ! ! !

It's an assumption that fine thread hexheads of any size will be easier than fine thread slot or philips to back out.  Don't know a soul who's using hexheads in hisorher mast track.  And the next scheduled track  removal maintenance for A-338 is around year 2057.
Another law of unpainted, anodize-long-gone, 45 year old mast disassembly....  is that the finer the thread the LESS corrosion is found in the aluminum,  the more easy  to loosen and remove.
The wide thread #8-20 sheetmetal screws Pearson used in the mast track installation created white powder and crevis corrosion* in every one of the hundred-plus holes.   The track was literally 'poultice' welded to the mast - while the old  s.s. screws that did move came out with sharp threads, there was no significant thread remaining in any aluminum hole.  Imco the track was ready to fly off the mast.  
My experience suggests that if you are the first fool to restore your mast, TAKE IT ALL OFF - INCLUDING THE TRACK!
Finer thread means less  molecular-space for sea water to stagnate.    BUT even a perfect threaded 316 screw in a  perfect tapped aluminum hole will have spaces in the corners of the thread that need filling.   Lanocoat (anhydrous lanolin) is a  traditional waterproofing for threaded fasteners.

*this crevis corrosion (sometimes talked about as 'gasket' corrosion) is a lesser evil of the SAME vigorous oxygen deprived corrosion we find bubbling under painted aluminum spars.
Believe it's been shown that the real nasty can occur whether the mast is painted, anodized  or conversion coated - whether the protection has been breached deliberately or by accident.  The breach when moist creates an immediate anodic condition in relation to the coating which becomes cathodic.  And a measurable voltage 'charge' is born that causes exchanges of electrons and there's your corrosion!  Molecular moisture will stagnate, get sour, and the pH  separates producing an acid/base reaction that will change Na and Cl into a more corrosive solution.  Double whammy!!   Visual evidence depends on unique potentials in the package of chemicals on the mast, so it's not predictable - but can possibly be horrendous.  Use a barrier grease on anything deliberately piercing the mast - including pop-rivets.  (S.S. pop rivets must be 100% stainless, otherwise you have to punch out the steel mandrel which then weakens the fastening.)  Using aluminum pop rivets is dangerous for the same reason AND they are 1/4 the strength of s.s.   Favor tapped in fine thread screws.

TEFGEL has the rep for being the most dependable corrosion block for dissimilar metals.  40% PTFE.  No silicones, no petro solvents.  Apply to BOTH surfaces leaving no voids for water to capillary into fastenings and bedding surfaces.  Does not increase resistance used on electrical contacts.   Prevents galling of s.s. screw threads driven into s.s matrix.  Won't 'cold' flow like lanocote.  Use on O-rings, ball & sleeve bearings as a lasting lube.
Get a 2 or 4OZ jar. You'll be using it!  Cleanup with mineral spirits.
*CREVICE CORROSION, as a result, refers not only to the valley made by an accidental scratch in coated Al  - and also to each fastening crater hole -  but also refers to the crevis produced by two pieces of metal bearing cheek-by-jowl together. Plastic film or sheet rubber as an insulator is not enough imco, we must keep water out of the interface.  Tefgel doesn't oxidize, never sets, always sticky.
[My argument against using tube synthetic rubber like polysufide under fittings applied to the mast (OR stanchion bases) is that while the material sets up and gets flexible... it's no longer sticky.  Therefore if the bond fails (which happens often enough)  a crevis situation is born and water is DRAWN in.  However, if the rubber is a type like butyl tape:  never sets, never gets hard, then water has a better chance of staying out.  Will use 20milSPVC pipe wrap AND butyl (or Tefgel for tight fits) as a extra assurance barrier for metal-to-metal or non-metal fittings.]

MINI NYLON BRISTLE BRUSHES  (set of five, 1/16" to 3/16", 4" long, ring mounted, $3.95 - from //www.micromark.com) *  will get TefGel INto the threads IN screw & bolt holes....INsuring that no hidden space is left for water to electrolyte and waste our ancient and elegant masts.
Imco, shipping prices are getting so outrageous that catalogers will put themslves out of business.  Local hobby,  train, toy shops, gun stores, auto paint stores for these brushes.  Blisterpak brand is Hawk or KingSun.  Tiniest brush will get compound into the threads of the tiniest screw  hole.  These are miniature bottle brushes. *(Try //www.utopiatools.com/Mini-Brush-Set-Nylon-Bristle)
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Find the Tech thread 'Mast issues and renovation' for current activity on the stick.

Hello Ebb. Long time no post :-)  Hope all is well in your world. Can we have an update?

Hello Frank,   long time!   And we could do with an update from you as well - hasn't it been as long?   A shot of your NEW retirement cottage,  some improvements to the Flicker - and likely works on even smaller craft!  Could use some inspiration.....

Woodn't bore you with the usual impairments and disfunctions last year - admit I did
more shuffling than hustling thru this mortal coil.   But here it is February again - after the longest
series of freezing nights and cold days noticed robins bathing in the fountain out front in the morning sun -  that's a sign of spring in Coastal California.

So I'm fairly bouncing up the ladder at the boat in San Rafael.  When I'm there.:o
Bill is on my case!  I have no cosmetics to photograph.

So what might happen is that we can post some shots of the mast reno, so far as it's gone.
Also made some thin plywood cases for mounting/protecting naked modulars of a Specter Ventura acquired years ago.  Have to reacquaint myself with Specter, whose shop is around the corner in San Rafael.... I turned in the membrane, at their suggestion, to come back later and pick up a fresh one when I was ready....  but only the shadow knows when ebb is ready???
But will stop by and see if anybody remembers me!    Fitting a desalinator into the Ariel is
a bit like building a house on your head.....
I'll have photos of some of THAT.

LITTLE BOXES
So, I've been making these cozies with 1/4" or 6mm meranti - somewhat like stitch & glue.  Boxes are all about right angles, merely
introducing  short sides to  long with epoxy gel.  No stitches, just hold shapes together at right angles with square chunks of wood.
Keep the squeezeout minimal.  Position on a flat mylar covered surface.  When set,  run a clean fillet on all inside corners with more gel. Let this set.
 As always use laminating 2 to 1 no solvent epoxy.
Now roundover the outside corners with the router.  Clean it up  and scuff the surfaces,  laminate  6oz woven fiberglass cloth inside and out
by laying on the dry material.  Dab with loaded brush.   Pliable plastic spreader excess gently away.   Trim cloth with orange scissors as you go, try not to lap the cloth, it'll be hard to sand flat.  But it can carefully be done.  Or lap seamlessly over to an edge where it can easily be trimmed when dry.  Don't try to cover the edges with fabric.
The major deal - as with stitch&glue  - we are using  the fabric to integrate the joints.  NO fastenings.  Elephants can sit on these cases.  
When you paint, if you haven't filled the surface, the result is a very nice industrial texture look!
However,  for other projects you can transform  thin meranti by skinning both sides with 6oz - and proceed as if it were normal plywood.
The stuff is maybe 1/16" thicker and has doubled in strength and hardness,   Still easy to glue, but it's  elevated into another kind of hard stable material.
Painted on a coat of Aluthane which makes strange cases even stranger looking,  like cast aluminum or sumthing!

If I could do it all over again, the whole interior of litlgull would be done this way.  'Cleatless' will rule!  
While gluing little boxes for a desalinator isn't exactly exciting - the method is note worthy - sure not the first doing this - often  reinvent the wheel!
The transformation of filleted  meranti,  glass & epoxy into a synergetic construct is amazing!  Unbelievably stiff and strong.
Stitch & glue is a game changing method of building watercraft.  Filleting panels & skinning with fabric is the same game.  If only I'd been aware - the whole interior of A338, with all its natural planes and angles could have created with 1/4"& 3/8" ply and glass, hardly any bloody cleats anywhere to complicate vertical to horizontal tansitions.  Half the weight of what I've burdened litlgull with!!

M-1
Spent some time looking into polyether-based adhesives and sealants - some of which are now building trades GREEN mainstream.  
Recently used ChemLink's silyl terminated polyether 10oz tube M-1,  filliing a seam on the cabin sole.  Very reasonably priced. $6, I think, local roofing supply.   No smell, no solvents, essentially no VOC, non flamable.  No UV problems, won't get yellow,  moisture cure,  said to have strong adhesion to virtually all surfaces including a number of plastics, excellent flex. excellent durability.  Only polyether that is 3rd party (LEEDs) certified Green.   Alcohol cleanup.  Blue tape masking pulls off leaving a clean line...after partial set.
My focus is on its ability to be used underwater.   Solvent based 3M4000 silyl terminated urethane  polyether advertised for (immersion) thru-hulls and requires toluene or acetone for cleanup.  Both these products will bond thruhulls to fiberglass - which I don't think is a good idea.
And M-1's ability to be used as a truly allpurpose caulk, sealant, adhesive  remains to be forum confirmed,  but it's looking real good.  Will not be used for thru-hulls either.  [Plan on well-known construction butyl tape, under the flange only]
M-1 not marine marketed like the 3M polyether at three times the price.  
(Research ChemLink's Duralink an extremely elastic sealant/adhesive for on-deck metal to frp fittings like stanchion bases, cleats, pads, track.  Butyl shouldn't be used on fittings that might move in use.  Super stick
butyl tape like MaineSail's Bed-It could be used for stanchion bases and other under-stress fittings. imco)

Out of the tube gun, it's clean, non-viscous, easy to tool.  If I remember experiences with polysulfide, the messiest unfriendliest most unforgiving tube rubber on the planet,  M-1 is 180 degrees from polysulfide in handling.  Works clean rather than messy.    M-1 bonds to stuff,   it's not a bedding compound.
Won't it be great to reach for one type of goop where 4 or 5 used to poop?

Promise activity here with photos ASAP.

1st off...GREAT TO HEAR YOU'RE ALIVE AND THE PROJECT CONTINUES!!!!!!!!! I and I'm sure "WE ALL" are all looking forward to pictures!!! I'm checking in from Green Turtle Cay Abacos....Ebb....ya gotta get going! Looking forward to ya sailing in here. We have rum to drink, stories to swap, ideas to debate. Looking forward to the pictures. ;-)

So glad to hear that your wonderful little ship is making her way closer to being launched!  

Faith is tugging at her lines, I am suffering away my days doing charters here in the Virgin Islands.  I left the US on Thanksgiving day, and have not been back since.  I am onboard a Pearson 424, and expect to be back (if I come back) some time this year....   This ship has been very good to me, but I sure miss Faith.  Can't wait till we are all out here together!

Strange how a sailboat can
represent at the same time
the comforts of solitude
and the pleasures of company.
...............................................................................................................................
Author Unknown - from my daughter's blog
teapot = sailboat:D

So true.....That said....I'd love your company out here  :-)

OK guys,  aye am with you..... in thought if not boat!
 I have the hippocampus in tow.  Often called reptilian,
mine is actaully a potamus,  almost impossible to lead out
of the marina.:o

Just reviewed your work....for the 100th time. As I posted back in 2008.....

  ""As usual...the 'Ebb-myster' delivers. Combo of designer-craftsman-engineer-dreamer and poet.Looks great!! Keep at it...and not so long between pics""

So true to all of the above.  

Along with revisiting this thread, a couple favorite haunts of mine include the threads for Revival, Faith, and Uhuru.  By no means am I limited to those.  Grace, Princess, Maika'i, and YTBN C147 are but a few other threads I like to read over from time to time.  They are not only inspirational, but also a marker of a great time spent in the company of great people.  This forum, along with its members have definately shaped my life these last years.

Thanks to all of you!

Your timing is great Tony. I just reviewed yours as well (and copied several pictures). You do incredible work as well and to have ripped out great work to start over shows far more patiance than I pocess !!  I truly admire the both of you.
I'll skip over to 215's so as not to hijack Ebb's.

(Enlisted a photographer friend to compress a number of litlgull 'process' photos
to send to Bill for editing and ensertion into the gallery.  Progress on boat.):o

ebb
 
Really looking forward to seeing the photos. Can't wait :)

(http://C:%5CUsers%5Cebb%5CPictures%5CComposites%20for%20Ariel%5CComp_1%5CComp_1.jpg)

These six photo composition pages all loaded smaller than meant to.
[  OK, screwed up.  This is a first try at posting photos.  This a group of six compositions.
They all loaded together like newborn puppies.  So you will have to bear with us on this.   The first Comp 1 is the first three photos, which I was told I had to text before blindly uploading.  microsoft medieval managing]


Notice the 1/2" wood dowel in the top photo in relation to the level balanced on the track-flat?.....
That's how  w a y  off Pearson drilled holes for the spreader sockers & lowers..!

Next two shots show a sliding box jig marked with center-lines and hole locations.  Multi-purpose.
The interior dimensions are straight lines, obviously,   makes it real easy to find, for instance,  the center line of the mast extrusion.  Sides and front!  Can be used to lay out any straight line along the mast, not just centers.
 
For example: not only were the factory spreader cup brackets crooked HORIZONTALLY - as seen by the wonkus dowel -  but also VERTICALLY.  Top bolt not in line with the bottom bolt.  And not only that:  the brackets weren't 'installed' on the centerline of the mast!  Too radical to fix THAT.  Can't blame it on a DFO,  only four bolt holes showed when the mast was taken apart.  Can see on the left foto of the box jig how OFF CENTER the oversized bolthole is.  A compromise fix -  because of the midmast concentration of fittings and holes.

There aren't too many 1/2" holes in the mast,  guanantee matching 90degree guide  holes in the sleeve jig were drilled on the drillpress - 3/4" ply sides stacked - before it was assembled.   Obvious, but it works.
Photo on the right shows how the top pair of  crooked holes were fixed OK by offset drilling using the jig with more alined larger ones.  The larger hole fits a 3/4"OD-1/2"ID s.s. compression tube that the bolt for the lowers slips thru.  Cut & polish the ends square for washers and tangs to seat on!  
The tang's bolt  in the tube can not be tightened so much as to deform the mast, because thread-end provides refusal.  The tube also is a bearing in that it  increases surface area for the active  pulling on the bolt by the four lowers.   Thought this a good solution because the new spreader bar, just above the lower shrouds,  floats in its thru hole - using the slip-on spreaders mounted tight against the outside of the mast to keep the system from shifting.

Sleeve box jig is also a pattern for routing the  2"R quarter circle (out of the front 1/3 of the 6" length of the mast section)   for SantaCruz/HuntingtonBeach FORWARD mast lowering.  Jig also locates the off-set 'hinge' bolt that the Ballenger tabernacle requires.  The mast rolls on its bottom for which  a 3" thick G-10 insert to share  mast load is provided  (not shown.)   Tabernacle is the essense of simplitity.
.....................................................................................................................................................................................................

Next four same size mast shots, from left to right:  
1) Shows bar that hollow airfoil spreaders slip over.  Also the new 3/4" tang-bolt hole for the lowers.
2) Shows the new Louchard Delrin sheave and new welded  sleeve being fitted.  Darker gray is  reconstruction material on the track side of the mast at the head,  and metal filler used to fair 45 years of squeezing & corrosion by the sheave bolt nut - that also  tangs the upper shrouds that keep the mast up.
3) Opposite view of the sleeve.   Jig was used at the mast head to check Pearson's hole drilling and slot cutting expertise.  Good job there!
Helped layout the widened slot on the front side of the mast.  Track flat side widening is a no-brainer.
New sleeve (with welded top & bottom pieces) bears on mast, provides extra support for the hard working 1/2" bolt.  Imco, sleeve improves  structure at the top of the mast by supporting sheave where the bolt load is.  Except for the bolt, no other fastenings to keep it easy to disassemble for inside access.
4) Prepped mast mid-section just befor painting.   Shows filled upper bolthole, and location of new spreaders in relation to the original double bolts.
....................................................................................................................................................................................................
Next group: two shots of  mishmash molding set-up for  winch bases - cheekblock bases - and inside/outside electrical  fairing fitting  (meant to created a waterproof wire continuity thru mast and thru deck (not shown.)  mylar and p.ethylene dimensional sheet provide mold release.
Shot with blue tape shows already hard inside/outside cookies taped together for drilling.   The hole saw (actually two holesaws) were used (not on the mast there!) to make the thru-mast pad rings for the white Maralon thru-hull.
...................................................................................................................................................................................................
[Sorry about the size. Zooming to 150% helps with the photos.]
Set of five showing the ballet of getting the famous Wichard Solent Stay Tang INTO the mast - thru that narrow slot.  The two part butterfly tang is ingenious and French and customizable all at the same time.   If anybody is interested in this, maybe we can figure out how to enlarge this set.....
1)  Where to place the extra forestay?  How we gonna run the fall from the masthead sheave?  
2) Shows that when the tang is slipped into the slot,  both  flanges have sharp corners bearing on the mast inside that must be rounded over.  Stainless wins over Aluminum every time.   (A good portion of this fitting lives permanently inside the mast - any grinding must be buffed to a high polish to reduce chance  corrosion that can't be seen.)
3) Showing that result.  
4)  Helpful scale drawing shows the tang as it will be when inside the mast - to accurately locate the offset for eight fastening holes that have to be drilled into the mast from outside.  Fitting comes with holes already drilled in the flange(s) - they were redrilled and tapped for 1/4-28 machine screws.  Holes in mast drilled for a slip fit.
5)  Made easy hole drilling..... missed one anyway!
   
The diameter of that large hole for the stay  (have seen pics of this tang with  smaller diameter shackle pin  holes) is 18.43mm[23/32"]
It requires a bronze bushing for any normal sized shackle or clevis pin. My rig terminates in 7/16" pins. Catalog McMasterCarr: 7811K17. Alloy 660 Sleeve Bearing for 12mmshaft[15/32"].  18mmOD[23/32"]. Bushing length is 15/32", actually this 'width'  fits snugly inside  7/16" strap-toggles. And  bears well enough in the 1/4" thick hole of the tang's double plate.
Tang connecting pins, shackles, toggles will always hang straight.  Good for a Solent stay that will be loose and tensioned intermittently.
Imco, the concept genius of the Wichard stay tang is how it  mounts INSIDE the mast - depending on no outside mast fastenings to hang it.  Does want those  fastenings to lock in the narrow 2-part tang,  and keep it from being pulled down the mast.  Consider the Solent a backup forestay.
....................................................................................................................................................................................................
Last three (reduced size) photos show the roll & tip mast.   Numerous Aluthane and System3 WRLPU coats result in  little buildup.   Mast could almost be a new anodized stick.   Little shot shows chain dragged thru the interior on the track side to break off worms from track hole filling.  Some  idea of a successful refurbish of the multi holed flat - and rebuild to top of mast.  Jib-block tang won't go back there, unless a new design is made that gets support from the sides of the mast - it's not full  restoration.

Comp 6.
This set of shots shows a number of Specter 150/200 Ventura desalinator modules fitted with
hose specific plywood mounting cases. They are meant to help protect vulnerable units from damage
and also hold connecting hoses in a way that won't allow kinking or pulling, with best access to hose clamps - & filter changing.
Left side, un-assembled. Right side, ready to be mounted vertically on bulkheads in & around the forward dinette seat locker.

Imco the construction style of these cases generates from the facinating & unfamiliar STITCH&GLUE method of kyack and tender building (Ken Littledyke INV, see wikipedia).....
Where thin high-grade plywood is assembled by bending precut shapes and binding their edges by butting them together and holding them with wire thru adjacent holes.
The resulting wire stitched compound shape is epoxy-gel glued at a number of strategic places to hold the intended shape. Then the stitches are removed, the weld points cleaned up, and the full length of the butted seams filled and filleted with thickened epoxy. The filleting is deliberately kept smooth and fair. Cure until firm.    Then the whole surface of  BOTH SIDES of the 3D shape gets covered with light weight fabric, usually 4 - 6oz fiberglass. This technical quantum leap makes very strong monoque structure for its weight.  [an experiment with the method at:  TENDER by EBB - Or The WayWide (sic)  in  Technical forum]

DESCRIPTION
Top two photos.   End of system diverter valve:   with many choices for in/out tube connect.  This simple (no 'off' position) p.propylene valve is the sampling tap AND the product water on-route from desalinator to storage.  Brine waste is led  directly overboard thru another fitting, usually to a valve at a thruhull.

Next object: primary strainer for incoming seawater.  First module after the saltwater seacock.
(Center bottom: thru hose  fitting for mast electrics (nothing to do with desalinator) with the fairing plates Aluthaned,  ready to install.)
Middle: 5 and 20 micron filters,  at the moment without a cover.
 Little black pig is the accumulator which provides steady pressure from the (black) pump shown

in the last picture:  Inlet seawater pump module.   Fresh water charcoal filter for system flushing - service valve on the center white metal frame - and black feed pump to micron filters that deliver clean salt water to the Clark Pump Intensifier, ie the reverse osmosis membrane that makes the drinking water. (not shown, as this much larger mod is installed on its own dedicated shelf in the V-berth.)  Where the hell to put all this stuff?
Boxes are strategically cap-screwed inside the forward starboard seat locker walls - with nuts on the inside.  Modules are similarly mounted to their case, allowing removal of both at once or just the module.  Pressure hose is reinforced clear vinyl - stiff and not very friendly.
Inlet pump module needs air circulation & access - so it's installed athwartship outside the forward seat locker in the dinette kick space.  Sliced off corner fits against the hull.

3 SECRETS
These little boxes are all right angled - require no stitching and no fasteners.   Pieces are propped together with blocks of lumber or anything handy - for initial gluing.. The idea is to get a predetermined 3D shape by buttering edges with small amounts of thickened goop, letting it set. When you stick together 2-3-4 sided open units, you can easily pull  generous (approx 1/2"R)  fillets on all inside corners - using a 2oz plastic syringe to apply controlled worms of thickened epoxy.  The COVE FILLET is the first secret of this construct.  The glue is 100% solids, no-blush, 2:1 laminating epoxy,  mixed with fumed-silica.  Slow hardener. (TAP Plastics, Premium Laminating Epoxy)

The second secret:  After full or partial fillet cure, lay in a SINGLE LAYER OF FIBERGLASS coverng the whole inside surface to tie flats and verticals together. Use a pliable (green) spreader to keep the amount of liquid lean and press the fabric onto the plywood.   Butt join fabric pieces on flats when you have to.   Arrange cloth at 45 degrees (diagonally) to get it to turn corners.  Isn't easy but sure is a lot of fun. Cure.

  [Difficult to explain how to apply cloth.  Cut to very loose fit - arrange it in dry - then stick it on - wet it out - by  dabbing with loaded brush.  Try not to pull weave of fabric too much out of shape while teasing it into corners when going from horizontal to vertical.  Get frisky with  Fiskars cutting out 'V' darts in corners.    Cut wet fabric for accuracy.   Gently pull it off the wood, cut out the offender,  paste it back in place.  
OR make a single cut into the corner - down the middle of too much fabric - and just lap it over on itself,  covering over the cove fillets.
 Light weight fabric has very little thickness (1/32") when wet,  and lap joins pretty much disappear... finessing cut edges by gently poking with the brush-tip.  Make sure fabric is squeegied tight to the surface of the ply, and itself.  Don't forget to wipe the  epoxy off your zizzers!   Isopropyl alcohol 91% RiteAid.]

After rounding corners and edges, etc. cover the whole outside in a single layer of cloth & epoxy. Let the fabric flop over edges, don't attempt to turn the fabric trying to glue it onto a narrow edge.  Run cloth over holes - cut fabric out after set and round holes and edges smooth.  Slice off cloth overhangs when dry to touch with utility knife.
 
Let  pieces cure. Detail sand and shape until satisfied. Don't worry about edges not covered with fabric, won't matter. Fill the weave with a second coat of epoxy gel  if desired. Leave no ridges.  At this time touch-up/seal raw edges with liquid epoxy.  Cure. final light sanding overall and paint.  
What you see in fotos is one coat of Aluthane - no primer.  Because the cases are quite detailed, they look like they might be cast aluminum metal!  
The method:   covering with glass inside & out over reinforced corners makes an amazing structure, stiffening thin ply,  making a seamless cohesive object  stronger than any traditional mehod, imco!  
The third secret is 6mm or 1/4" MERANTI BS1088 HYDROTECH.  Make sure your maranti has the British Standard stamp.

[ I think this technique, including form-fitting to hull curves, using the materials described here, perhaps  a  size up of plywood and fabric,  (if it hasn't been done already!) can be used to fit out  a 23-30ft cruising sailboat.  Wish I'd done it.  Many other uses aboard:  light weight  bins - lockers - panels - shelves - Dorades - containers of every sort (including lids) can be prefab, primed & painted.    If conceived modularly, interior furniture can be installed with fasteners,  rather than  permanently glued.  Nearly everything can be designed removable.  A racer day sailor can be transformed into a tricked out weekend camper.   And back again.:D]

Ebb,  I am in the process of moving east this next week and it just occurred to me that you are just over the bridge.  Are you going to be around the boat on tuesday 5/28?  I am actually going sailing on Tuesday from Sausalito and could come over to take a peak.  Can you believe I have never been sailing on the bay in nearly 14 years of living in SF?!  

Anyway, if you are going to be around and willing to compare notes I would love it.  If not, its no big deal, I can still enjoy your work from the web.

Best, matt (carbonsoup, A97)
matt@carbonsoup.com

Capt. Carbon, be great to meet with you.
The boat is up the SanRafael Canal,  a good way from great sailing on the Bay,
especially if you're leaving and this is it.

The boat's not back together,  it's a mess,  altho I'm trying.  
We are a poor substitute for a day of sailing on the Bay.
I bet it would be easier to drive up from Sausalito to the SanRafael Yacht Harbor
than sailing or more probably motoring in.....and all the way out again.
And the tides maybe not cooperating.

If it is this week end, and you really have to see this landlocked vessel,
  it may be better if you tell me when you can make it?
I'm probably more flexible.  Maybe do it Monday or, better, afetr Tuesday next week?  
Or this Friday (tomorrow) around noon?  Or like early Sat AM befor sailing,  or after?
I am up against a renewal deadline for getting the old Dodge truck smogged,
so I have to spend time doing that also.

Send me a phone number on the private message channel if you wish.

EXAMPLE:

25°C......................77°F
x 2 = 50................-32 = 45
- 1/10 = 45...........+ 1/10 = 50
+32 = 77°F...........x ½ = 25°C

............................................................................................
Challenge is to find an instant step conversion. C to F:  
(found on internet - if I locate the source again,  I'll post it here.)  
F to C:   Harder but doable.
Can't think in Centigrade, I'm a Fahrenheit fan.
............................................................................................
C to F:   double C → minus 10% → plus 32 = F   (accurate)
F to C:   F minus 30 → plus 10% → take half = C   (close enough)

............................................................................................

F is literate.
C is laboratory:  at zero water freezes,  at 100° water boils.

F zero,  it's too frikking cold even in Denmark.  
At two digit 32° it's freezing,  but you got a chance.
At F 100°,  it's getting into a 3-alarm heat wave
(while in C scale,  it'll be 37.5° - close to freezing in my book.)

Fahrenheit is a finer tuned scale and more expressive.
98.6° is normal human body temp.  104° it's heat stroke or fever,
a 5.4° spread.  For emphasis, it  crosses  a two to a three digit gradient.
Celsius,  it's 37° and 40° - a 3° separation. Fahrenheit says it way better.
 
Holy centigrade!   it's going to be over 37.5° today!  ....no, rilly?.....:D
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Fahrenheit is actually a guy's name.  Argument is fortified  by 'soul'!
Centigrade, could say, has some life... as in centipede, not souled.

:confused:

Quote from: ebb;26545EXAMPLE:
In tech school we were required to learn this and also conversion to Kelvin and Rankin. And we had to learn that and a lot of other formulas without the use of a calculator. And I've never needed it since. Nowadays all your digital thermometers will read either and your cell phone has an app for it. Another cool app I found useful is the inclinometer app which allows you to get the pitch of a fan blade or the pitch of your deck surfaces.
25°C......................77°F
x 2 = 50................-32 = 45
- 1/10 = 45...........+ 1/10 = 50
+32 = 77°F...........x ½ = 25°C

............................................................................................
Challenge is to find an instant step conversion. C to F:  
(found on internet - if I locate the source again,  I'll post it here.)  
F to C:   Harder but doable.
Can't think in Centigrade, I'm a Fahrenheit fan.
............................................................................................
C to F:   double C > minus 10% > plus 32 = F   (accurate)
F to C:   F minus 30 > plus 10% > take half = C   (close enough)

............................................................................................

F is literate.
C is laboratory:  at zero water freezes,  at 100° water boils.

F zero,  it's too frikking cold even in Denmark.  
At two digit 32° it's freezing,  but you got a chance.
At F 100°,  it's getting into a 3-alarm heat wave
(while in C scale,  it'll be 37.5° - close to freezing in my book.)

Fahrenheit is a finer tuned scale and more expressive.
98.6° is normal human body temp.  104° it's heat stroke or fever,
a 5.4° spread.  For emphasis, it  crosses  a two to a three digit gradient.
Celsius,  it's 37° and 40° - a 3° separation. Fahrenheit says it way better.
 
Holy catfish!   it's going to be over 37.5° today!  ....no, rilly?.....:D

Ebb....UPDATES.....pictures..... WE NEED UPDATES AND PICTURES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


:-)

Frank, how are you doing!

Oh Boy,  miss the energy of way back then....
But I am stirring the stew.  Ordered sails from the finest sailmaker on the planet.
That alone is a huge boot in the butt.
Now have too large, but to hell with it, Hayn rigging....from Rigging Only.....rig da blinking mast.

Ready to fit the mahogany coamings.  Still agonizing how to mount the winches.  Whether to cap or not!!

Have an enormous urge to paint the mahogany bulworks with the same grey paint that's on the boot top...
(can do that later...right?)(lemmie see, seal w/ epoxy, fill the grain, 3 coats of varnish...then paint!)

You once told me the secret was to finish EACH project, only then move on to the next...

I have seventeen of them going like spinning plates.  Ooops
Many have fallen, couple broke,  and may have forgotten how the hell I ever got them spinning.
It's always been like this....
This time I'm getting there.  Have to....
Gotta quit the job.  
Ree diculous,  I'm two decades beyond retirement.   Getting out of jail without a 'free' card.

Holding the bright image.   Feel the tiller in my hand.
Pushing off....oh man... the boat is coming alive..
Pull the hat down, adjusting the shades, here ah come!
Really.

[ Holding the bright image.   Feel the tiller in my hand.
Pushing off....oh man... the boat is coming alive..
Pull the hat down, adjusting the shades, here ah come!
Really.[/QUOTE]

Keep THAT image Ebb!!

Get motivated. Learn "acceptable tolerances"  :rolleyes:

I just sailed into HopeTown (Elbow Cay) from Marsh Harbour this morning.
Nice wind, blue green water...shorts-no T shirt :)

Ya gotta get your butt over here!!!

Keep the faith buddy!!!!!

Remember...I'm flying in for launch day!

PS....Ebb...you asked how I was doing...

Bad knees, awful shoulder, deaf on left side....but....

http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?topic=4455.msg49675#msg49675

For the first time ever on another computer, another location...
still in the same county....but I'm getting the idea!

Probably will feel too embarrassed or too harried when splash comes.  
Probably sneak it in on a foggy morning,  me & the crane operator.
...after what I've done to her, will litlgull  even float on her lines?...

Frank,
Used yer blue line and followed you & yer float through a couple pages,
a couple far away estuaries and a couple eateries and a couple  where?
 harbors  and a couple minutes on what I understood is a ComPac27?
...couple nice there too!!   ah h  h yes... guess I've been out of touch!

OK ok, one of these days, some anchorage, there'll be this strange little
sloop/cutter...you'll recognize it as an Arielberg ...with  aluminum nose.  
And this old guy is sitting there complaining about some damn  thing
probably:
....Hey, Frank, whot hapnin?  
Hey, Ebb, you finally made it...

(continue this later, gotta go congrats a friend who's just
successfully made it out of surgery......):)

Her's was a rotorooter - a clotted artery, a slowing that stops  people dead...
like littlgull's lifestyle of plastic prosthetics clogging the way to a place in the sun.

LongJohnSilver got along fine with a plain wood peg (wonder what wood?  
 was it silver bound?)...I could've upgraded a rail at a time... and gone  sailing...
My friend is real,  the Ahreal has no anthropomorphic flesh &  blood comparing
with her,  except to me...and she, the 26ft one,  speaks more to primal breath...

When I said soul, clapped  my chest - the seat of the breath, the gift of life.  
The boat's sails likewise breathe in the planet's gift  of life.  
More than a bit scared of foul & fair winds yet to come,  I think.  
Way more afraid of hospitals, 'senior care',  druuugs, and white collar clones.  
And the last ten or twenty consigned to professionals...
It's time to head offshore... time to get some of that ocean air.
_____________________________________________________________________

I have a feeling my boat
has struck, down there in the depths,
against a great thing.
And nothing
happens! Nothing....Silence....Waves

-- Nothing happens?   Or has everything
happened
and are we standing now,
in the new life?  
Juan Ramon Jiminez  (from A.V.)

If he won't post his recent progress, at least he can share this:

"My first boat was a 29 foot, gaff rig, reeving bowsprit sloop named SKUA.  She was given away some 20 years ago, and never heard from again! The boat was all original from the rubbing strake up. Thought you'd like to see her ... bears some little resemblance to the Ariel, doesn't it?"

{Pg21 #420}
SKUA was donated to - what they said was - a sailing school for 'disadvantaged' kids in
Alviso / San Jose.  May have expected new owners to come back with a Hi!  and a few
photos of happy young urban sailors pulling  ropes or something.   Eventually  looked up
the school on the web,  discovered the guy who signed the papers had a very abrasive
relationship, not only with Alviso locals,  but with various bayshore restoration agencies,  
and the all powerful BCDC.   They dragged him into court and punished him with huge
fines for dumping riprap on his shore front.
Photos, also found on the web,  revealed the school office to be a dilapidated  trailer,  
and a marina totally overgrown and disappeared into a sea of rush and cattails.
   
Drove down there once:  trailer was gone,  found a 'no trespass' sign that also identified
the vacated mess as sailing school property,
abandoned plastic boats in the photos were gone.

......................................................................................................................................
Skuas mate for life.  They are found at both poles and are pelagic.  They eat penguin
chicks whole.  They don't fish,  they take it away from specialist birds.  Kind of like
politicians,  and amateur boatbuilders.  
They are  fearless, will attack humans when they go near their young.
 
There be no sea hawks,  but if there were,  they be skuas.   They are ends-of-the-earth
creatures.   When polar explorers see a bird,  it's likely a skua sailing  by.   Back then,
seemed like a great boat name for embracing global adventures and the future together.  
When our single chick turned 18, divorce made it  a relic.
 
Took the boat out on the Bay... alone, stupidly... without an experienced sailor to chat
with. The narrow bow and beam,  and long heavy bowsprit seemed wrong for offshore,  
it's long straight  keel and shallow draft gave it an uncomfortable tippy motion.  
But the boat was a memento of a broken 30year partnership - couldn't raise  sail without
ache in the gut.  Tried to sell it.  One guy came aboard, sat down with me in the all
teak accommodation  below,  and told  me all what was wrong with my apprentice ship.
 
Historical photo in the previous post reminds me -- when I see those strangers:  new
owner  and his buddies on  deck,  they  had just picked up Skua in Sausalito and were
headed south to the bottom of the Bay -- remember at the time  having a feeling  that  
something wasn't right.  The clowns  didn't have  a sailor's curiosity  to hank on the staysl
and spread that glorious gaff main!  
 
Man!...cutter still looks pretty cool!    
And in a couple winks,  she was gone like a bird.   The link broke forever. Without a trace.
 
......................................................................................................................................
Jack Boyce and Joanne Kyger, who had property in Bolinas, were building a house,
saw my ridiculous and isolated predicament (beginning to work on the hull at 10thSt in  
Berkeley), and invited me out, lock, stock and barrel to build the boat there, with friends,
without rent,  at the end of their driveway in rural California.   It became more than 30
years of awakening,  working for Bill Brown as a gardener,  love, marriage, finding
carpentry,  curmudgenery, fatherness,  and divorce.

 Boat itself could not have been built without the support, patience,  advice, and genius
of yacht designer   Lauren Williams.

Nor could the Skua have made it out of the ......  Lagoon without the lip and tips and
hilarious weekend lunches at Ed Letter's Marine in Bobo with Babe Lamerdin, John
Linderman and the Elizabeth Muir.  No one told a joke better than Babe, and John
could recite every twisted limerick ever conceived in the cerebral cortex of the human male.

And later on,  the guidance and teaching of Donald Goring at Lee Sail Loft, Alameda,  
who so generously laid out and cut on his loft floor the Egyptian cotton we brought him  
-- and taught the  EX the marvelous exacting art of sewing and roping a gaff mainsail.
 An amazing achievement  -- that huge sail -- every stitch, rat-tail and cringle  by hand !!
Jib and staysl, too!!  

 Quite possibly never thanked her enough...
Nor the extraordinary sailors who shared their time and passion and know-how with us...

masking tape paint peeling trick
MAST focus: OK,  So the new sailtrack holes are just done and tapped for 8-32MS.

The old bronze track has a 3" jog between holes -- the new Schaefer s.s. track:  2 3/4".
Could not avoid some ten old holes showing up in the 26 feet of new track cable-tied
to the mast.  These voids really can't be redrilled for a larger screw.  Theoretically
possible, but they don't show up exactly on target, centered in the new track -- or they
 happen to be wonkus corroded cavities,  filled with LabMetal,  that aren't  smart to tap.
 
Drilled the ten holes at each location offset about 1/2" above.  First, wiresize #29 for
the 8-32 tap, in cobalt, thru both track and mast, then wedged up  track in place and
carefully opened  the new sailtrack holes to match Schaefer's.  Then tapped the offsets.
Made a pencil mark at all filled & blank locations on the mast, to avoid them,  actually
by temporarily taping the old track back where it had hung out for the last 50 years.  
Got a perpetual GaryLarson 'My brain Is Full' coffee mug, for that!

Stuck a small piece of blue tape at the 10 offset holes as  eye markers.  New holes
drilled and tapped spread out along the length of the new track... job done.  
(Schaefer track also has 10 more holes and fasteners   than the old.   That's good.)  
Thumbnail the blue tape....peel back the pieces, ...and...they

ALL LIFT OFF WITH GRAY ALUTHANE  COLOR STUCK TO THE TAPE !
Holymoley,  it's a very thin 'leaf' of  mast -- touch an edge and the gray LPU flakes.

This is your everyday non-aggressive 3M blue stick-and-peel masking  tape.... How
can indestructible Aluthane be lifting off?  ...Water Reducible LPU? ...seems lifeless.  
 Must have cut the product too much.  But if it failed,  how did  tape pull Aluthane off
as well?  Seems it lifted only the micron contact  bond the LPU made with aluminum
paint. Yet multiple clear coatings cured with no cohesive  strength.  
This is a 100% system fail.

This contact bond makes it difficult to scrub the clear coat  off.  Various Scotchbrite
pads, water,  solvents...and hard work removed some   failed coating...but...  Tried
the heat gun,  that didn't work.  Scrubbing with maroon pads also created streaks of
raw aluminum... as did mechanical sanding with the ocsillating Makita.  !@#$%!
Thought about using blue tape as the remover.   Expensive. And not realistic. Not
Funny. NONE of this is realistic!  Especially scrubbing and sanding!    @#$%!

Blame !@#$%! SYSTEM 3 for this failure?  Had mysterious problems with a 2-part
epoxy product of theirs that cost a lot of time to fix,  plus a kind of grief in loosing
trust in a greener company.  {System 3 --T-88 Structural Epoxy --pg 17 #325.}
 
Water reducible linear polyurethane is a huge achievement in the war we must win
over  global terrorist chemical corporations killing our planet. We slaves approve  
and support them at every opportunity... while they and their armageddonist
brethren relentlessly diminish all life.  Played  too loose & free with System  3!  
Have 5 quarts of their WR-LPU colors  ... that now will never be used on Littlegull.

The mast has been curing on burritos outside in the weather, like me not doing much
work.  There are endless variables leading to coating failure.  Intercoat  adhesion:
like perfect coats, weaker or stronger,  applied in the wrong order.
Coating thickness, cutting it too much. (Never heard of  failure in thinning varnish 50%
... but varnish is usually oil based, not water reducible urethane.)  High heat,  low
humidity,  sun spots...  ... Wisecrack that System 3 is too provincial for us down here in
Temperate-ville,  being manufactured up in cold damp overcast Washington state.  
 
Technique also might be a cause,  the usual::  sterate or latex white sandpaper,  tack
rag,  solvent  uncleaning wash, soap residue, or interpreting instructions wrong: stroke  
left  to right, not up and down.  Yes, but WR ClearCoat operation was rolled on in a
single uninterrupted series.  The price to pay for more shiney and more longevity may  
not  be worth the price,  if a system is so picky that a non-professional  optimist can't  
expect  decent results from the time, effort, and high priced investment in  what is
essentially  a "cosmetic coating for a recreational vehicle".  Only Awlgrip has the moxi
to be a chemical warlord in the shipyard...  We Normals want paints that are forgiving.

MY ASSOCIATION WITH ALL SYSTEM 3 PRODUCTS IS TERMINATED

________________________________________________________________________
Think about how stupid the average person is
and then realize that half of them are stupider that that.  George Carlin

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

LATER EDIT.  Ebb's first attempt at uploading pics from the pic file... frickinhuge!!

2nd pic shows a green tap fluid I can possibly recommend.   Assume it cleans up with
soap and water or isopropyl without leaving an evil residue.  'SAFETAP ULTIMA:
Environmentally friendly, biodegradable, non-staining and odorless.  Looks like a
transparent viscous oil, yet leaves no oil on the work.*  Contains no oil, no solvents,
no sulfur or chlorine and NO SILICONES.  Works on all metals, but especially good
with aluminum'.  MSDS is useless for ingredients, as it has no hazardous ones,  the
Technical Data Sheet has all the hype just mentioned,  but no words recommending
squeaky cleanup.  Of dozens, not a single vendor or forum have anything to add
beyond the manufacturer's BS, concerning the actual use of this product!*  Safetap
does us no favors:  The hype doesn't clue us as to what in hell the non-oil fluid is!  
More important, the manufacturer never lets us know what to clean it  off with!!  
Oh wise one, what's that all about?  Why keep it secret?


That piece of blue is a reminder marker for drilling new holes, mentioned in text.
A tap drill has just made a new hole in the mast  1/2" above an old hole that is way
oversized for any screw.  Hole in track is then propped up with scrap polyethylene  
sheet and redrilled to match Schaefer's.    Notice -- on right  the end of the  original
Pearson bronze track -- one side of the 'T'  drastically reduced from decades of
uneven wear.   Photo shot before discovering the bluetape peel-away surprise.

BROKEN HAND TAPS
(Most good tap and die sets are 4fluke HSS.  Tap thread cutting is done with a bore
that has four thin ridges of cutters and four proportionly wide flukes that collect the
cutting waste.  In smaller sizes we use: #6, 8, 10 12 & 14,  the taps are fragile and
will eventually break in your work.  McMasterCarr has upgrade taps & dies for  various
metals and wallets.  Also, you should have a set of Walton TAP Extractors in your
kit.  They work by extending 4 hard wires down into the flukes of the broken tap in
your work....  which you adjust  and turn to dislodge.  They really work well getting
the jammed tip out... once you get the pins inserted.  In a perfect world,  I'd have a
set  of 3fluke tap  cutters, which naturally have a stronger column.
Check out McMasterCarr's stubby cobalt tap-required wire size  bits  for drilling  soft
& hard metal... haven't broken one yet!)

First pic shows a piece of masking tape that has lifted what appears to be a large
flake of all 8 WRLPU coating layers -- plus what appears to be the last coat of  the
moisture cure aluminum-filled urethane 'primer' that preceded the lpu.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

'Official' SAFETAP REMOVAL  Painting finicky aluminum requires careful prep.

*So I called up MSC Industries that catalogs Safetap, from whom I may have
ordered.  Spoke with a very helpful gal who like me could find nothing on what is
officially used to clean away Safetap.  She gave me  itwprobrands customer service
email.  customerservice@itwprobrands.com  
Obviously some huge conglomerate with no time for the unwashed.  LO, after a
brief compliment, mentioning my tapping 100 holes.. got a nearly immediate email
back from Jada, who said,  isopropyl alcohol is adequate for removing Safetap.  
But recommends an LPS aerosol product called EFX.  
http://www.lpslabs.com/product-details/609.  
Naturally, smelling a rat, looked up the MSDS on LPS EFX and discover it's mostly
N-heptane:   who knows, a not too horribly toxic, extremely explosive, petroleum
solvent.  BUT, the can   is under pressure and can blast 'not-oil' from every hidden
crevice.   Page 1 of the 10 page MSDS has a FIRST I've never seen before!... a
 
"PLAIN LANGUAGE  HAZARD SUMMARY".
 And so it is.  How about that!   Imco, Very cool.

*   ( not cool,  is that the highly poofed environmental/biodegradable product has to
privately recommend via email a nasty volatile petroleum solvent to guarantee
Safetap  contaminated  surfaces are cleared completely for painting prep.
Especially important for galvanic aluminum, for which this product is recommended.  
Nothing in the product hype or the technical data sheet about removing  all traces
before next process.  Confusing  that SafeTap deliberately ignores this vital step.

There are a number of safer environmental degreasers (like EMERGE: no TSP,  no
 phosphates, etc) available -- none advised here.  
SafeTap seems to be  so embarrassed that they must lie by omission.  
Do not 'seem' to withhold information, because this is what they actually do.)
Imco, offensive & improper.  Looking for another 'environmental' tapping fluid.
 
"Like all valuable commodities, truth is often counterfeited."  J.C.Gibbons

Ebb - did you have your window frames anodized? If so what anodizing process did you use?  C-025 Bisquit - Phil

Capt BisQuick suh,  Not quite sure where we are with the originals from A-338.
There is too much background to reiterate here.
Went the powder-coat route with the big windows... and later decided not to use them.
Altered them to take thru machine bolts (outside to inside) because the bitty #6MS
blind holes in the frame of the original were corroded,  and I didn't like their flimsy
nature.   Those large lights translated to  aluminum were a bad idea.  However, to
make them work I felt  the cabin sides had to be stabilized.  Some of that story is here.

The two  forward opening lights are also aluminum -- and I also had  them coated in the
same  "bronze" color polyester powder,  that I didn't get charged extra for, because they
happened to be using a batch that week. There are many little  pieces,  
Miller Powder Coating (Rohnert Park) did a champion job.

BUT, the polyester adds thickness overall.  I ended up with the all important exterior trim
ring unable to slip over the frame.  Can't grind the coating off to make it fit... because
the aluminum will have a fit... it'll corrode because it won't oxidize properly.  But as an
experiment will grind the coating edge open so it slides over the spigot...  touch up the
wound with an artist's brush and some of that Aluthane -- see if it works, see if it lasts....

Once you've coated aluminum you can't afford a scratch,  because aluminum will start
to bubble & creep.   While a scratch on raw aluminum will heal itself, coated aluminum
when scratched will create enough electric potential difference between  scratch and
coating in water and salt to cause corrosion.   Even tho our mast and fittings are marine
Almag,  observation shows plenty of opportunity for our alloy to corrode.  Yet, some
ancient almag cleats came off with no evidence of bedding compound...leaving a pristine
anodized footprint like the day it was  screwed on 5 decades earlier..  Some were
intensely corroded along with the screws and holes..
Anodize is best and  safest for new  aluminum.  It's a beautiful translucent,  porous,
chemical bond oxide finish, yet when scratched may still create potential to corrode.  

Would just start phoning around,  maybe the internet,  for an outfit that does small jobs or
marine work.  Aluminum masts are still popular these days, so you have to find somebody.

Anodize comes in hundreds of colors.  If you don't like the aluminum look, maybe there's
a bronze or brown  that will be perfect -- especially on some of those original beautiful
sculpted chocks and cleats they did back in Holland 50 years ago.  While both systems
are environmentally friendly, anodizing is a passivation process done in huge tanks,
and may not be available for small projects.  

Good luck with your amazing project!~!:cool:
http://www.anoplate.com/
____________________________________________________________________________
Aluthane, the aluminum filled moisture cure urethane, mentioned previously, could to
some extreme, be used to coat your aluminum fittings.  Haven't done it**, we need a
guinea pig! Aluminum, in current practice, cannot be coated with any foreign substance,  
without precise highly toxic two part chemical washes, and toxic tie-coat primer.  
SO THEY SAY. However, this aluminum filled urethane  has, or should I say, is gaining a
rep for bonding with any metal, and many other materials.   Whether it will take  the place
of chromates  and primer remains to be seen..  
Am hopeful. This guinea pig has bonded with his original Pearson mast.
 
Coating has some quirks :  It goes on very very thin,  if the surface to paint is smooth the
result will be dull,  if it's rough, the coating appears shiney and bright!  If you returned the
lid to the can with but  one drop of liquid in the moat, the lid is welded there forever,
cannot be pried opened. Partial cans will skin over. Skin fractures when lifted,  want a
fine mesh paper filter into a new container.  CO2 or argon toppers don't seem to give
even an extra day! A different animal, this ALUTHANE.  If I had  mangy cleats,  I'd dress
them in this urethane  ....There is a learning curve to working with it:  even roll & tip
requires practice, it's so fast.   Like other  'moisture cure',  once you open it, it starts to
harden.  Try to save it longterm for later, you come back to an aluminum hockey puck.

**except for the mast, where the coating seems almost  fused with the old aluminum.
___________________________________________________________________________
:confused:   Instead of tediously grinding failed coats off my poor old mast, SOY-GEL will be tried
instead:  it's a safer remover,  non-toxic,  bio-degradable low-VOC  gel.  FIRST OF ITS KIND.  
Probably digest  the Aluthane also!!   Should be interesting.  ..Stay tuned....
chubble chubble wheeek!
____________________________________________________________________________
We have a 100% green Metalco Anodizing, Emeryville, Calif. that specializes in clear,
bronze,  and black anodizing.  Haven't contacted them.

later EDIT: Talked with Metalco about bringing in projects.  No problem with 6061-T-6
with any welding done using 5356 filler rod... for clear anodizing.  Or Almag,  I'd guess.
Believe their process is a  sulfuric acid base,  but they produce no toxic waste, and  the
plant is near residential neighborhoods.  Most anodizers use sulfuric acid which produces
the clear coat we see on masts and booms.
Sulfuric acid hardcoat triple dip oxide process thickens overall dimensions, and can
also repair worn surfaces.  Type I chromic acid  process produces a very thin anodize that
does not  thicken the work, but doesn't provide much abrasion resistance either.
Would be interesting to see what happens when some well preserved Ariel/Commander
Almag chocks and cleats get treated to a nice bronze hardcoat anodized process!!

:eek: TRIAL OF SOY-GEL  PAINT REMOVER.  Tale of two strippers.

W-a-y past my project sanding days.  Orbital Makita and  Bosch disks didn't really
want to off the failed System3 WR-LPU clear coat...  Looked around the web:  found
this yummy SOY-GEL stripper. Local paint stores don't have it.  Nor online marine or
paint suppliers.  Got 2 qts - and a bottle of recommended EMERGE degreaser - from
Rockler ($70 incl S&H). Brushed  it on thick as it would go per instructions, covered
it with plastic film,  watched the surface crinkle in some places,  but not all over... for
a couple days.   Pulled the film, spent hours, a whole day,  scraping the clear coat
and a little of the Aluthane off.  Wash down with detergent and nylon pads......
Turns out this was  stage one of the 'process'. (2qts for 44sqft  of mast surface.)

The  coating didn't turn into cottage cheese,  as the product video shows.  In places it
lifted bubbly skin of still fairly tough coating... and at others just ignored it.  Now
committed  (what nut house is this?)... figured I needed at least a gallon more gel.
Rockler took forever getting  to me.    Lo and behold:  found it in McMasterCarr, who
delivered a gallon next day, pronto. ($90 incl S&H)!!!
Slopped on  2 more heavy coats, with 2 more episodes of scraping layers of sticky
skin that the stripper merely lifted rather than convert into that more appetizing
cottage cheese, magically wiped off with handfuls of towels  the video shows. Each
installment also got scrubbed down with detergent and nylon pads....  The Soy-Gel
leaves a kind of oily residue.  Used non-toxic Emerge degreaser after 3rd scrub down.

Realize we are talking about removing urethane.  But it's advertised to easily do that.
Realized at the beginning that using a stripper would probably mean taking all coating
off, because the action of stripper is to degrade whatever it penetrates.  Penetration
was and is an unknown.   In this case: dashed expectations,  disappointing experience,  
a lot of work, lots of bucks.  Been  smarter to grind off the bloody failed LPU  leaving
most of the Aluthane.   Got taken again, by my brain pilot,  who seems to be loosing it...
But it does show just how tough the metallic Aluthane is. That's one lonely thing.

Stripping paint asks for trouble.  Depressing! ....this event also degraded ALL the
Lab-metal repairs on the mast! The naked and now reversed mast looks horrible,
quite literally, back to its original painful state.  Old pits,  corrosions, forensic voids that
Lab-metal compound transformed to like-new again, turns out nothing more than a
cosmetic  facial...  like those fem-crèmmercials on tv... same old face under the paste.
Alvin, an old welding  products company (1950s), produces helpful cans of heat-proof
lotions  and this particular rather toxic "metal repair" paste... I did have fun with it.
Even tho it's high heat paste,*it still is  epoxy.  Which Soy-Gel destroyed!!!


MECHAICALLY FILLING MAST TRACK HOLES
Used the compound to plug the hundred+ old sail track holes.  None survived the
remover, all softened  back to paste. :cool: >Using a #1 drillbit,  found bright metal in
nearly all the old holes for a 1/4-28 tap - which cut  3 1/2 threads in the mast's 1/8"
thickness.   Now  plugged with a tiny disk of aluminum all-thread stud.  McMasterCarr
came through with 1" 1/4-28 aluminum 6061 all-thread studs! ($6.61 for 25)
Piece of cake.  {I know:  seen that guy do it with a die on a long piece of all-thread!}
Art brushed epoxy into new-thread holes and ends of the studs,  inserted each into
its final  resting place, gave each 3.5 twists -- let them cure, ground them off flush.
 
Somewhere else on the planet  1" 1/4-28 aluminum studs are being used... for what?

Can not recommend Soy-Gel.   Besides being a botch and odd performer, weeks
of work:  on a boat, do we ever want to use a paint stripper that eats epoxy?**

It has that one good thing going for it: it's kind on your skin (found  it does a good
job painlessly removing oil from the skin of my hands).  It is a paint remover:  clear
colored,  nearly  odorless,  makes it easy to track.   Gets on gloves and places like door
& tool  handles,  easy to  pick up by accident, carry to  other places, like eyes and
pets and food.

Bye bye Soy-Gel.!   But it did not touch the Durafix repairs.  Notably,  that white
death oxide disaster above the shevebox where the curved tang for foresail blocks
originally fastened.   Mast metal... just gone.  In that space,  created an awkward fill  
using 730F aluminum alloy  sticks and Mapp gas.  Embarrassing to see it revealed
again, yet looks  like the alloy managed to 'weld' the sides of the missing track-flat
together... like it bridged to good aluminum on each side.    Nothing will  attach there.  
Mid mast, two large  Lab-metal filled holes also fell out.  Have an idea (o-oh!) how
to get them filled... permanently with Durafix.
___________________________________________________________________

**All paint removers are bombs.  Destroy everything down to the ground.  Some
are fast, some slow, some are advertised as gentle on the original gel-coat.   We
are well past that issue now.  Most skippers have removed all their old bottom paint.
And then waterproofed the old gel-coat with an epoxy hardcoat barrier.  There are
dozens of removers.  Toxic, caustic, new gen -- all chemical.  There is no chemical
stripper that will not attack epoxy. >>There's one:  DumondPeelAway,  which I
once used on litlgull's bottom... life changing experience never to be visited again:

Red can PeelAwayMarineStrip (NOT "SafetyStrip".)...watch your colors....is the
non toxic, non-carcinogenic, zero VOC, non flammable stripper  that will non remove
epoxy barrier coat, if you don't leave it on too long.  PeelAway paste is  troweled
on, covered  with 'laminated paper', which combines with "30 coats"  of any  paint.  
That is then troweled off.  But some areas must be done over,  not all comes off.  
Ran out of paper-film, plain plastic doesn't work as well.  Days, weeks...real bulky  
mess under the boat.... the result,  if  you did put down black plastic under the boat,
is like dealing with a couple dead horses.  If not toxic, it looks toxic...  heavy, sloppy,
slimey,  sodden, disgusting  mess... that has to go to the dump,  if you  disguise it.  
Then you hose and scrub down, neutralize with Citri-Lize and hose it again.   $$$$
Ariel bottom wetted area = 250sqft = 5gal + extra paper.  (Had to get more...)
Two gallons troweled on the Mast may have been more sane... doubt it.

Nobody on the web likes PeelAway -- except Practical Sailor -- who in 2006
compared it with nine others using a one square foot(!) layout sample for each....
on an actual boat with "several layers" of anti-fouling. Practical Joke for the  DIYr .
google: Past Adventures With Chemical Strippers - Practical Sailor. Half fast!
 
The yard requires a vacuum sander - this method probably  is the cleanest  (not
the quietest) way yet -- requires expensive equipment and  young arms.[/I]
_____________________________________________________________________
*Alvin Lab-metal MSDS http://www.alvinproducts.com/
"Section 2 Hazard(s)............................................... Aluminum Powder 51.98%
..............................................................................Methyl Ethyl Ketone 9.77%
...............................................................Toluene (Haps) 8.94%"   =  70.69% "

(separate can...Lab-metal Solvent:.............................. 52% toluene, 48% acetone)

70.69%...no mention what the remainder is.  Somewhere in the lit we see this clue:
"there's no need to mix two parts of the repair paste".  Regular Lab-metal repairs can
be powder coated to 425F.  Also available,  is a separate super heat resistant  Lab-
metal  that will  take over 1000F!!  Because of this durability, the missing binder didn't  
register as a one-legged epoxy  to  my po' little gray cells...  Never mentioned in the
MSDS,  the Data Sheet or Brochure that the  missing  percentage: 29.31%,  is actually
non-hazardous epoxy or epoxyester... which  !@#$%! SoyGel  sucked the life out of..  
WOW, do I make a mess of things!  
http://www.alvinproducts.com/   Just above JayLeno click:  Powder Coaters Click Here.
You'll find a YouTube and a couple important tips about solvents,  the product tag is
 'epoxy putty'. Find lists for its uses, but nowhere does it say what can be coated
over Lab-metal.  "Acetone & MEK will soften hardened Lab-metal."  Both of these
are ketones. Ketones are the hot side of solvents and lacquer paints:  the aromatics.  
Aliphatics, generally not as lethal and by  default may be OK, enamels & coatings
that use mineral spirits, VM&P naptha & hexanes. Gasoline and kerosene also aliphatic.
____________________________________________________________

"Writing, I explained, was mainly an attempt to out-argue one's past;
to present events in such a light that battles lost in life were either won
on paper or held to a draw." Jules Feifer

GulfCoastPaint MCU--100 PRIMER/FINISH  is its other name.  It's been discovered by many
 skippers, primarily because it is available in quart cans from epoxyproducts.com.  Some of
mine here,  it is an extraordinary coating, very different from any other we use around the
boat, requiring imco an application learning curve (see post 424 for some surprises.)    
It is an industrial paint so maybe we can expect excellent  longevity and weatherability.

Aluthane coating  is both finish and primer -- perhaps the manufacturer is  not entirely sure
what this coating can do.  You can print out a two page 'brochure' from their site, 1/2 of
which are photos of gigantic industrial plants.  But it's already obvious that this coating is
a marvel, a big deal, and yet to find its full potential.  I picked up a readable inhouse safety  
data sheet off pauloman's epoxyproducts site (but don't know how.)  It is here we find the
three (there may be more, Stirling seems to have one like this) commercial names for this
aluminum paint revealed: Gulfthane, MCU-100 Primer/Finish, and ALUTHANE.
It's gotten  around in other circles...

PRODUCT DESCRIPTION
"A one component, Moisture Curved Polyurethane Aluminum Coating.  Has excellent
adhesion to sound, tightly adherent rusty steel, and other marginally prepared surfaces.  
This low viscosity, high 'wetting' coating undergoes a rapid molecular weight change as it
polymerizes into a high molecular weight finish which provides excellent corrosion and
abrasion resistance. Its resistance to creeping, undercutting, and blistering is superior to
epoxy primers. MCU-100 is also a barrier primer or tie coat to prevent lifting of strong
solvent top coats over conventional coatings, and most chemical coatings.

PRODUCT FEATURES
1. Primer for all types of surfaces.
2. Excellent 'wetting out' properties over sound, rusty steel.
3. Fast recoating, 1-2hrs.
4. Cures down to 18F on dry surfaces.
5. Excellent corrosion resistance, passed 1,200 hours in salt cabinet.
6. One package.  Easy to use
7. Outstanding abrasion resistance
8. May be topcoated with most generic type coatings
9. Very good weather resistance.
10. High heat, up to 400F dry.
11. Excellent as a barrier coat over lead based coatings."

SINCE WHEN ARE URETHANES CONSIDERED PRIMERS ?
This should open up possibilities for any doubter.  As a 'primer', still not sure about how
one goes about adding a series of 'generic' coats to polyurethane... which I always
assumed was the final sweat achievement . Peculiarly, this kind of utilitarian MCU  rolls
on very very thin like LPU, but isn't bling.  NO mention of above/below waterlines.
Abrasion resistance may suggest rubbing down with nylon/grit pad. *
TECH DATA for thinner is an inhouse 'SA-50'.  MSDS reveals xylene is a major ingredient.
Certainly didn't need thinner when doing the mast.  Most sustained use I've had with it.

Now,  prime use for this urethane has been for dressing corroded steel pilings in water.
Do we assume salt water?  Which as we know can entirely erase steel from the planet.
In coating our boats we are always aware what primers are OK below the waterline.  
There is no caution that this primer cannot be used underwater.  No words to that
effect.  Many a neglected aluminum skiff has been born again with a single coat of
Aluthane. (Later EDIT:  Just talked with manufacture's rep at GulfCoastPaintMfg, the
makers of MCU-100 (Aluthane).  He didn't know why we cannot use urethane paint
underwater.  He did say that any urethane, including LPU, can be topcoated with any
other paint system.  Therefor you can say, it's a 'primer'.  However, he would not advise
using Aluthane as a primer on the bottom of a boat, even if topcoated with a twopart
epoxy OR a hard bottom paint... but didn't know WHY?  Don't like this kind of mystery.)

If you like a galvanize look, this coating will look exactly as you rolled it on 10 years
later.  Don't know that totally for fact:  took a couple rusty hardware store thin sheet
metal  horses,  the kind that start rusting out the door... had some Aluthane left over,
hurriedly rolled it over dirt,  dust, rust, bird droppings and spider webs.  Transformation
is still  a minor miracle: bird droppings still encapsulated,  and today, years later, they
look just painted.  Amazing to me is that an aluminum filled paint is used  directly over
and within the rough rust on steel -- and yet doesn't create a battery... these two are
in no way close friends around the galvanic table.

Assumed that polyurethanes are always two part.  Here we see one-pot referred to
as 'poly'.  On a molecular level urethanes are films made of polymers  fused together at
highly reactive poly-isocyanate sites, forming strong bonds known as chains.
Moisture causes the reaction that creates amines which combine with  isocyanates that  
cure into urea that bonds chains together  The process releases CO2.  Isocyanates are
hazardous organic compounds of 'functional' (reactive) groups of  molecules that inter-
react with other groups to form a specific chemical --a simultaneous phenomenon
called 'hydrogen bonding' occurs between the chains of  molecules that further increases
film strength -- as we see in the list of attributes above.  Pretty amazing stuff,  but this
says this one-part aluminum filled primer CURES rather than dries like regular 1-part.  
Who's going to try it as a tiecoat primer.    "metalfilled paint PRIMER? You're kidding."  

Begs the question: why can't polyurethanes be used underwater?   "They cannot."
 {google ignores answering that one!!!}  Why not amazing Aluthane? Assume,  with
continuous  immersion in salt water, coating dissolves.   What's with this chemistry?)
There are many thermoplastic polyurethane elastomers, plastic rubber, goops, caulks,
sealants, adhesives,  tank linings and dips - some filled with glass spheres or fiberglass
- that can be used underwater.  These are the only p.urethanes that can be designed
for total immersion use.   None of these rubbers are  hard  coatings.


Seems, ebb has learned one thing... Alutane is devitalized with a certain chemical
paint stripper. The thin tough multicoat didn't die without a fight, came off with putty
knives  and carbide scrappers in obstinate strips.  We'll use it again -- with a new green
pre-prep  called PreKote* which replaces the toxic heavy metal acid & alkaline
conversion  washes --  And this time it'll be the FINISH coat!!  Love that galvanize look!

*from AircraftSpruce.  PreKote SP is a trademark of Pantheon, an aerospace tech.
 It provides this interesting solution that produces "a polar/non-polar molecule that
attaches itself to permanently embedded contamination and attracts the {next} coating.
In contrast, traditional conversion coatings containing heavy metals such as chrome or
zinc  have no  mechanism by which to attach themselves to permanently embedded
contamination, resulting in coating failures such as blisters and outgassing (pinholes)."
 
Again, using aluminum filled LabMetal   on the mast, and hope that this PreKote
treatment will give due consideration to my contribution of  filler & fairing bonded
'contamination' on the aluminum metal mast, and myriad 50 year old embedded oxide
defects.  PreKote SP is not a toxic conversion coating, and does not permanently
change the metal surface... it is an integral part of a coating system.  It must be
overcoated.  And I hope it strongly embraces my coating choice, Aluthane!  As far as
exposure  to solvents, carcinogenetic toxics and contaminated water runoff goes, this
pre-treatment is a huge responsible step toward  greener painting  of aluminum ( and
a number of other metals and surfaces).  Been around  for  two decades...  wish I'd
read up on it before I chose to use the insane  chromated stuff!!  Tested by DOD
and the USAirForce, given their blessing.   No idea what film chemistry PreKote uses.

Read every word I can find on what Pantheon Enterprises says about their PreKote.  
Can't find a single word for its use under water, or total immersion.  They do not say,
Do not use Prekote underwater.  Don't use it when  painting your submarine.
(Interlux has a very different hibuild, above-waterline, sanding primer called Pre-Kote.
It does not carry  a registered trademark)... imco.     //www.pantheonchemical.com

EXACTLY WHICH SCOTCHBRITE PAD?
The whole reason for using a pre-prep on aluminum is to remove all traces of oxide
and other contaminates.  PreKote as an alternative to acid/alkaline heavy metal wash
is a godsend, if it works (haven't used it yet).  It has a very specific method for
application  that involves scrubbing the aluminum surface with a specific nylon pad.  
Instructions given for using PreKote on your aeroplane are in military specs.  But
there's a footnote stating MAROON 3M scotchbrite aluminum grit nylon pads
may be used.  BUT cautions to use no other brand. Instructions are so specific:  
ONLY the maroon 7447 scotchbrite pad may be used, NO other pad color either!!  
Other pads may leave behind oil, soap, rubber or the wrong grit  in your substrate.

A little pop to retain...  for all other surface preps...  for any coating.   MAROON !
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"I woke up after a night's sleep to the tune of a robin on the windowsill.   I realized it
was Spring.  It was time for Marlow to take a long easy weekend some place... some
place where surf meets sand."  Raymond Chandler, The Last Laugh,  OldTimeRadio

Speaking of updates..

Ebb buddy....

Update and pictures please

OK....pretty please ;)

Frank,  I've been lucky to get Louie to give me a hand painting the deck.  Primer is on, nearly
completed, ready for Epifanes MonoUrethane.  Then, to Louie's disgust,  the deck will be
 taped and KiwiGrip applied.  We'll do a competent job, but not concourse.  No time left,
 have other unintended issues changing my course.  So if I sneak thru,  I'll be in great shape
 to take the tent down and rig the mast with Hayn.  Easy to say, but It's happening.

Wish I knew how to take pics with the iPhone and post them here.

Beginning to throw away, get rid of,  a bunch of the stuff that's stuck to me over the
 decades.  Good sign.  Have to be in a retirement mode to make it happen.  Would like to do
 it without depending on a storage locker.  Tons of books, that's the hardest.  But you see,
I have to trick the old curmudgeon to accept the fate of freedom.

Pix coming,  promise.
! ! !

You will find purging SO FREEING!!

Hard at 1st....but it gets easier as things dissapear.

So glad you're in that "mode"

Remember my promise....

Frank, Can't wait.  Things are already disappearing:
 In fact my box of counterbores has disappeared.

{......days pass...who stole my counterbores....
!@#$%!
what the  hell did I do with them??}
(well, they didn't walk off because they got bored,
no, they found a fancy new apartment in one of
those yellow plastic see-through-top, movable
dividers, small parts tray/boxes... all along in plain
sight!)

Hope ebb don't forget to Purge
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"... my purpose holds
to sail beyond the sunset
and the baths of all the western stars
until I die."  Ulysses Tennyson


To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

And this gray spirit yearning in desire
To follow knowledge like a sinking star
Beyond the utmost bound of human thought

Ebb,
dump it, man!  As model citizens we have WAY too much stuff in general, and, the challenge of doing things with less is kind of rewarding (except when you botch a job and know you could have done it better with the "right" tool) when it works out good enough to get the job done.  As a side note, I just worked on a boat yesterday that was packed with so much stuff that the owner didn't even know what was where. It felt like I was at a crime scene! Glad we won't have that problem on our little boats.  "Less $#!%, more substance" is my new mantra-let's see if it takes hold...

One of George Carlin's famous comedy shticks, great performance poetry.
{It just naturally fell into quatrains when I texted from his performance}
There is this partial near the beginning:

"....... That's all you need in life, a little place for your stuff.
That's all your house is, a place to keep your stuff.
If you didn't have so much stuff, you wouldn't need a house.
You could just walk around all the time.

A house is just a pile of stuff with a cover on it.
You can see that when you're taking off in an airplane.
You look down, you see everybody's got a little pile of stuff.
All the little piles of stuff.

And when you leave your house, you gotta lock it up.
Wouldn't want somebody to come by and take some of your stuff.
They always take the good stuff.
They never bother with the crap you're saving.

All they want is the shiny stuff.
That's what your house is, a place to keep your stuff
while you go out and get...  more stuff!
Sometimes you gotta move, gotta get a bigger house.

Why?   No room for your stuff anymore."   ......
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


"Gotta get a bigger boat !"

Wish I was CommanderPete, I'd post a photo here of a sail-around-all-the-
time cruiser with a huge jungle jim of shiny cruising stuff hanging all over
it,  chrome pipe, dodger, bimini  and bikini kinds of stuff...  
Stuff you gotta have for modern voyaging.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Today, littlegull's cabin top and deck gets her first coat of Epifanes MU 3125.
The namby  gray of KiwiGrip$$$, will be rolleed in islands on top of that.
Picked  the monourethane from a cloud of color chips, thinking it had a touch
of gray, but it's called Alpine White.  Deck, cabin, cockpit and probably the
sunbrella will be shades  of white and gray.  No plan really.  Staying away
from beige and blue.  Down below, light blues,  the lightest red (not  pastel
faded  with white which becomes pink) if it can mixed.  Perhaps Epi MU
cream on the cabinets with saten frosted mahogany,  but that's a way off,
I'll be almost home on the boat by then!!

Experiment with  Interlux Flattening Agent for One-Part Finishes.  One part
urethanes, enamels, varnish,  It's added to the final coat. 1to1 produces a
satin-gloss, with high as 3parts to 1part paint producing matte.  Epifanes
doesn't do color satins.  We have to mix huge quantities of this agent into
the paint.  Doesn't seem kopacetic.  Into an already fully realized product!
Tip came inhouse, likely Epifanes, through my vendor: SMSDistributorsInc.

Just that much closer to sailing around all the time.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


LATER EDIT 3 unpardonable quotes for 2017:

For if there is a sin against life,
it consists perhaps not so much in despairing of life
as in hoping for another life
and eluding the implacable grandeur of this life.  Albert Camus

I shall tell you a great secret, my friend,
Do not wait for the last judgement, it takes place every day.  Albert Camus

The most unpardonable sin in society is independence of thought.  
Emma Goldman

For the young person, it is almost a sin, or at least a danger,
to be too preoccupied with himself
-- but for the ageing person,  
it is a duty and necessity to devote serious attention to himself.  Carl Jung



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 
HERE'S TO TIME FLYING

3/22/17,  Joanne (Miss Kids) Kyger dies.  Poet emerged 60 years ago from
 the 'male dominated Beat  Generation'.  But not beat -- a force since,  in so
many lives. Surrounding  herself with poets, painters, cats and intellectuals
-- an informal zenBuddhista,  she may have made nirvana, an old skeptic
won't know.  In terms of life after death it means,   if you don't make it you
aren't lost,  you can always come  back again to the human univers for
another shot.  Her life now locks into her writings.  Hugh loss for us.
She's on her way and won't be back.

email:  "Thu 12/22/2016.  Best wishes for the Holidays.  Hello Ebbe, Here
below is {an imasge of} the Himalayan Deodar you gave me for my front
garden over 40 years ago.  
Here's to time flying.  
And sending you good wishes.    
for the coming year.  
[5-7-5;)]  Just don't read the news.  xxx Joanne.  JOANNE AND DONALD"

Indeed... Here's to time flying... to Joanne, to Donald, to her little
home on the Bolinas Mesa... the big ole cedar in the front garden...


my tears are clouds of words I'm unable to say
.
.
.

Ebb buddy....

How are you?
Plans?
Updates?
PICTURES!!!

Hope all is well

Too many left turns.
Have slowed some, things happening to the meat machine.
Still wake up kicking the passion can into every morning.

Putting the mast together.  Sort of figured out how to do a
red-over-green Colregs, which has a meter spread challenge,
up top there.  Rather than putting all 40" on top like pbryant,
red might be 20 inches above the masthead,   green 40"
 below  on the mast -- well, how to get all round green?  
Looked into strip ribbon leds, do-able.  But simpler to try
mounting two Hella "360 all round navigation lamps"  on
either side of mast.  They stick out a bit much, but from
2NM will it make any difference??  Red will be a single,
and  mounted above the tri-color.
 
Yeah,  know will probably have to reef mainsl.   But in this
 mad world:  sailing at night with masthead AND deck lights
all lit up, reefing seems mandatory,  so...  
And how to rig the cable, ehh?  Found some fabulous 'strain
relief'  that actually grabs and hangs the cable inside mast,
on a hook, thru-bolt,  never wired damn mast  before.

So, to get ready for the mythical sparky, naturally I take out
the  galley counter because the BlueSeas are going in under
the bridge.  Decided the electrical box, that shares part of the
counter plywood under the bridge,  should be separate from
the exposed part, which we will keep removable by using
normal butyl tape and woodscrews--  in  case those buried
cubby holes under the counter ever want  to be accessed.

You know, it's on and on like that.  Literally discovered, when
hiring help that Ebb's weirdly eccentric when it comes to  boat.  
Knew I was difficult, not nuts.  Like many olives think I yam.

Have a friend who's just retired,  she's taking more time.
My problem solving brain is taking more time as well. The
intuitive part is beginning to ask should aye trust it??  But it
is the 'problem solving' that brings in every new day.  
Eccentricity's  other hand is inability.

OK, gotta get the electric panel box glued up...  Get ready
for the experts.  Got Hayn rigging,  got to get started on that,  
and I still have to glue the rudder together!!!!!
Then tent down, mast up, measure for sails... no more maybe..

and I know you are enjoying life and sailing.... and sailing:D
:o

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Here's the last octet of a four stanza poem inspired by derelicts
ebbing away on tidal flats. (from The British Merchant Navy.)
Also SailNet thread Ode To a Sailor 11/25/2013 post 10 (& #1)

THE BOAT THAT NEVER SAILED  by Alban Wall
...

Somewhere there are men with snow-white hair
Who sit in life's twilight years,
And often their thoughts drift wistfully back,
And often their eyes fill with tears
As they think of the dreams that have gone astray
And the plans that have somehow failed --
God, heal the hearts of the men who have built
The boats that have never sailed.


Want draughts of strong ale to drown  these rhymes of
heartbreak - rendered by an old irish tune of time forever lost  
- or dirge of a lone bagpipe on the lonely cliff-shore at sunset.

'O Danny-boy, the pipes,  the pipes are calling.
...The summer's gone. and all the roses falling.'

{Can't find anything on Alban Wall.  Very well could be
the nom de plume of an english academic or llawyer.
Alban is a corny anagram.;)}

Ebb sent a couple of photos of Little Gull.  

 Hey Bill,  Glad we're hanging in there.  Watch it.  As you know, once I get yacking, like mushrooms.

Harbor Center San Rafael became untenable, including robberies.   Time seemed right,  my helper never came back.  Talked with Triton boys, Steve Gossman suggested Spaulding Boat works.  So there I am after being towed there by Ian...  and a boatload of other Sunday breakfast of champions.  Then the overblown virus thing.  Masy got yanked for a couple projects, including installation of Tides Marine STRONG TRACK (hard as a rock black polyethylene.  Sailmaker insists.  How to mount on our teardrop mast shape.  Strong Track needs some flatness under the Schaefer track that ours doesn't have.  So we're adding a strip of 1/16"x 1 1/4" aluminum under the Schaefer to get rigidity.. we hope.  Sailmaker absolutely insists on the free-slide  option.  I insist on a bowsprit.  Now have a TROGEAR carbon fiber 'V',which sailmaker wants me to fly a Code 0.  Lost argument for two regular reefer-furlers.  But will have one. It requires a bail up top to take the swivel.  Which I had removed,  because I wasn't going to set a spinnaker, ever. So mast down also for that AND added track for the stormsail.  OK. Ebb's additions brings boat weight up to 6.000 lbs.  Let that be a lesson to ya, mates.  Raise the waterline!

Here's Ebb's copy of Alberg's new rudder shown in the A-C yacht's plan.  For some reason, I can't get the photo to rotate.  It's correct in my file, but it rotates when inserted into the post.  Ebb writes:

  Rudder has a 1/8" G-10 'core'.  It's the rudder shape andallows trailing  edge to finish in something really tough. Two layers of veed meranti plywood, creating the essential shape.  The blade is 2 inches at the post trailing to 1/4".  NACA airfoils at 5 'stations' provide the dynamic curve along rudder length, which were actually very mild, as I used only the trailing half of the wing shape.  Used thickened epoxy - and finished  offwith Wet/Dry 700 Epoxy Paste (underwater epoxy) which smoothed well and provided a light color finish. Rudder lives underwater, underwater epoxy to finish. Splashed before the gudgeon was installed, and sitting in the mud at Spaulding the rudder has lifted out of the shoe and won't drop back in.  

Friends,  Stay well,  See you out there.

Ebb
I'm excited!
It floats!!
Hurrah!!
Congrats!
More pics
More info
Yippee!!
👍👍👍🤣

Please note:  Text has been added to post's 435 and 436 (photos above)

Moderator

Good to hear from you Ebb, glad to see you are as feisty as ever. And I would like to see more pics too. Make a deal with you, post a few more pics and I will pull the tarp off of Mariah and post a pic to prove I still have #331.
Busy with another boat project  at the moment.

So really great to see these pictures of Little Gull finally in her element. Looking at Capt Ebb's profile, I see it's been a couple of years since he's checked in. And I also see his time here spans over 18 YEARS!  I'm certain during that time, he has inspired and guided many more sailors than just me. :)

The years spent with my Ariel have been logged in precious memories with my family and friends. Capt Ebb's time bookends mine by years. I don't think I've ever witnessed such super human tenacity before. But perhaps it was made easier - because if ever anyone had found their "soulmate" in a boat, surely it is Ebb and Little Gull.  And she's meticulous and beautiful Ebb!

Fair winds and calm seas Capt Ebb. Steady on. Looking forward to those sailing yarns soon! :)

PS. And THANK YOU Bill for facilitating such an epic story...

I've forgotten how things work here.
Hello Bill
Hello Frank
Hello Tim
Hello Mike
Glad to be here again.



OPENING PORTS
Just got notified:  'Off Topic -  Replacement Windows for Berth Portals.'
Myself installed heavy bronze elliptical opening ports, the smallest Davey
ones.  Couldn't futz anymore with the aluminum that I'd spent a lot of
time and $$ on.  
Obscenely expensive. Have no portrait photos,  but do have a couple
incidentals.  
BUT HAVE FORGOT HOW TO POST ATTACHMENTS.  Can't find what
used to be here as instructions,  but also the language defeated me.
The photos are in my iPhone 11.  So...


RUDDER TWEEKS
The rudder.  Alltho not obvious, the stock/shaft is in its original position.
Which is pretty obvious.    The s-glass wraps around the shaft, not
many layers, maybe four 8oz?, cabocil/chopped strand/epoxy formed
the foil bellies,  and the finishing underwater paste on top of that.
Ended up with plenty of space for the expanded diameter shaft to turn
free.  
But during construction  the 2" thickness at the shaft was cut back to a
vee,  so that the rudder swings fully without fouling the sides of the
cove in the keel.  Ended up with good access into the cove for bottom
paint.  Various stage  photos Ebb doesn't know how to attach here.  

Can just see the 2" angle in the two photos Bill has posted.
Chamfer gives the rudder a full airfoil/wing impression.  However the
whole surface of the blade is still the trailing 1/2 of an 018 formula
chord.
Cove-end of keel/rudder post is close two inches wide.  Rudder blade
is 2" wide, except for the chamfers,   Hydrofoil ends in a sharp 1/4"
wide square trailing tip to cut the sticky liquid cavitation  before it
curls back on itself.  With 20 lbs alone in the 6' of 1" diameter 655
bronze stock,  the rudder itself weighs in at 57lbs on the bathroom
scale. Add our weighty bronze tillerhead to that!  Yet while being
towed around  the Bay from San Rafael to Sausalito behind Ian's
Sanctuary, the tiller as docile and light as a littlegull's feather !!

Blade does not copy exactly Alberg's ghost outline of the so-called
'Constellation' rudder.   C. is a popular name for extreme sailboats.
This one refers to a S&S 12 meter racer that won the America's Cup
in 1964 or 5.  Which would be current with the Alberg palimpsest.
Some call it a barndoor rudder.  Sparkman and Stevens tank tested
the design extensively.  It brings control to untroubled water at the
bottom of the keel.  How much rounded corners was also examined
and Alberg seems to have followed the experts.  But Ebb thinks larger
round corners will also produce larger ventilations. Since then versions
of every radius have appeared on nearly all yachts with barndoor
rudders including Alberg's CapeDorys.  Sharp corners too, along with
 a sharp trailing edge, to defeat and control tip vortices produced by
 rudder profiles and myriad angles of heel.

Felt I had to add back a wedge of area to the top of 338 rudder - my
gut, not tank-test decision - because of 'troubled waters' at the top of
the blade,  especially when  heeled.  No disrespect, we'll just see.

Consider also that the hole for the inboard prop also creates massive
water flow dynamics that alter any hydrofoil  niceties.  Full  foil rudder
and  lithium battery powered electric OB mounted in the well.

But I do like the Alberg 'C' much better.  Note that the area of both
blades in the Ariel/Commander Manual page 144  [Stress that this
drawing appears to be authentic Alberg] both blades have equal area.
Doubtful  that this barndoor rudder would be built of bronze and
mahogany like the marvelous original.  Pearson wasn't ready yet for
a fiberglass one, but they should have been!  

Not a Swede, just an ole Squarehead.. can't figure what C.A.Alberg
might've done..  except what's  brought forward with what's being  
tried here.

Just had a post here thanking the Committee
suddenly erase !@#$%&!

Well, it happerned again

i hit the backspace button

and a long post i was working on

disappeared


where did it go?

No way to find it.


I've   had   it  !



B Y E

Searching for how that might happen using the backspace key I tried all the combinations using Ctrl, Alt and Shift.  Then went down the "F" keys and hit something that I now can't duplicate were the backspace key and a function (F) key deleted everything I'd written.  

If you're typing on a mobile phone, there might be a problem that's causing a "delete all" command to occur.  Obviously, that command is there somewhere.  I just tipped it on my PC.  I'll see if my tech adviser has any suggestions.

It’s sad when it happens... more sad for the rest of us to miss what was being typed.  

Come back ebb!

Thanks,  Bill.  Company computer uses a wireless keyboard by Logitech.
And a logitech mouse that are so sensitive I have to use the corded
mouse because it's slightly less sensitive,  making it more responsive
to me.
So I tried hitting the two closest F11 (with three compacted elipses in
blue), and F12 (with and on/off symbol - a circle with a cigaret - and
mini caps 'PC' in blue).  On my home page pressing the FG12 will
erase the whole top set of info bars I have up there..
So, if I hit one of those while also the Backspace,  it could be me!

When I type, I constantly double-key vowels and other letters.  So
I constantly have to backspace to erase extra letters.  Constantly
erase 'i' and 'o' and 'j', 'm', 'y', and other 'companion letters'.  It's
my ancient hands and what they are connected to.  No matter how
extreme my rage (the more I age the more I rage)  nothing gets
fixed on that score.

The mouse, if my fore-finger is not curled exactly over the left
front, will cause a 2 solid black arrows with a dot to appear which
will cause
the page to scroll or drag, always without the ability to be reseated
or dragged back in format.  The only fix is to restart the computer
and loose
everything.  If it's an email,  I have found it in Drafts - where I've
been able to complete it and hit the 'send' prompt,. which
surprisingly they forgot to remove.

That, in a nutshell, happens all the time.  Takes time for Ebb to
say what he's saying.  Also a stream of conscious writer*, seldom
know exactly what I'm, going to say,  or even inexactly.  I've
gone back over each line here four or five times removing extra
letters..

OK,  not complaining, see the humor in this only up to a point.
I love life.  
Hate logitech, Microsoft, and tedious methods of communication.  
Hate getting old too!
So let's hope Ebb calms down..
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

POSTING PHOTOPS
Finally notioced the oicons on the Quiick Reply box.  One said start
photo with a URL.  That's thje address of the photo,  so looking that
up it says I can used the Photobuckety app[ - now have to find out
how to do that.  Haven't been inm Anmtyarctioca before,. but I'll;
give it a whirl..  [sic]
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

*  "How can I know what I think till I see what I say."  E.M.Forster

c_amos. - from SailFar - another hero of mine, yes.  And I remember your name
but won't say it here.  Went back 15 years - here - to see if you ever let it loose,
not that I can find.  But did see an explosion of names and boats that brings tears
to my eyes.  Brought a lot back, we were a great bunch in 2005.
I'm assuming SailFar is still going strong.  I'll check out if you and Faith are still
together - and whjere you've been!
Stay strong!!

Ebb mentioned that it's large enough to take charts.

THANKS BILL,
Didn't need posting yet,  BUT,  the upside-down hinge looks pretty good.
And sure is an example of "form follows function."  (backwards piano
hinge artistically considered)
Those are #10-24 flathead 1/2" MS with  tiny skinny washers and  nyloc
crown nuts.  Hinge is less than a 1/16" thick - dapped-into the surface of
the composite.
The material is 1/4" meranti with a layer of epoxy and s-glass on both
sides - like 5/16" thick.  The phenolic philippine ply is quite stiff - but
adding the fiberglass changes it into another material entirely.

Forinstance the top, with of course the captured hinge to help stiffen it,
has little give to it as a unsuppopted table top, yet it's essentially a lid.  
Size overall: 36x32.  Frame is 1 1/2 x 1 1/2 Honduras, all corners rounded.
No idea how to finish it yet.  Like wood color, also like space, so it may
end up cloud white.
The cloth is cut and laid on dry,  epoxy squeegeed on quite firmly.  Pull
all the extra syrup  in or off the weave.  Finished surface is 'textured' and
requires little prep to float on a smooth epoxy coat..


DON'T TABLES HAVE LEGS?
It'll probably have a body thrown across it, knowing me, at least twice.
So, went home with measurements of the 10" tall cubby under the table,  
thinking that a wide strongarm construct  might project out for support.
 
It's too complicated, too much construct and even with angled braces
to the hull,  table  just too big.  Also the 3 cubbies would be trashed.
They support the 'shelf' that the table end will bolt to.  There's all that
time it took to get it right along that side.  So I went thru amazon's
tedious algorithmic money-sucking stalker looking for … a pedestal..
 
It takes hours.  The search constantly leads you astray.  When you stop
to take a look, they make a game to keep specifications hard to find,
or secret.  Just down the page they line up other kinds of stanchions
to lead you further away from your focus, and to box you in with dozens
of oriental imitations you never thought you didn't want.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

THIS WEEK :  SPAULDING IS BACK TO WORK

Mast back in boat,  with new additions working around my "inventions'
that are not appreciated because they are outside normalcy.  Ebb
insisting to Carol Hasse that a cutter bowsprit was desired.. now have
light weight Trogear V sprit extending 3' forward.. requiring at the
masthead a strange extension, by an unknown to me yacht-designer,
as a standin for the usual bail.. looks like a horn.. not my style!

and while I was informed "the mast was going in sometime this week"
wasn't informed that it went in the next day, without my being there.

The business with the mast is to get it ready for measuring for sails.
Covvid, wildfire smoke, closures and  general malaise has taken to
the middle of September to happen.  Now the just arrived Schaefer
1100 furler
gets rigged and I wonder if the old man will get to be invited to that
event..??  Says it's a 42lb addition to the pleasure of sailing, all the
long stuff came in a gigantic tube weighing 65lbs, I cldn't lift it!

My disenfranchisement from the Spaulding Boat Works guest docket
now seems de rigueur.  (I think because I let the varnish go, really
needs help!)   And equally I seem to have been disinvited from the
Alberg Fleet virtual Sunday zobreakfasts, socially defective, that's
another  story I'll drop entirely,  always om been a loner for various dna
psycho-pop demeanors. Do I mean tremors?  Even tho I've yearned
these golden years for just easy comraderie, laffter  and respect,  
I've become a tired bad old grouch. !@#$%^&! (it's 4am..)

Photos to come.  Which I hope Bill will post.

..
[Now the third week of Oct.  Waiting on halyards.  I have line,
nobody asks for it..  will be paying for line that will take a week to ship.
West Marine is 5 minutes down the street in Marin City.  How can I
be involved in this charade??.  This is professionalism on a stick..]

.

Good.....no...Great.....no.....totally awesome to hear from ya!!

Now...


PICTURES

WELL WELL WELL: Tomorrow 12/3/2020 at 8:20,  Carol Hasse' and Chris of the Spaulding
Boatworks will have an open line of some sort and will (she is in Port Townsend and Chris
in Sausalito)..
MEASURE LITTLEGULL'S RIG FOR SAILS.

We've had near freezing temps in the mornings..
and along with spiking pandemics,  all kinds of businesses dying, devastating wildfires
[26,000 homes], unbreathable air,  8 months getting the mast together,  near fascist
gov't takeover..
Hope it goes smoothly, ha!


______________________________________________________________
Surprised to find out that a hero of ours, Larry Pardey died 7/27/2020.. RIP.

Saw Lin, Larry and Talesine  at a boat show maybe 10 years ago.  They were
holding forth down below in their famous  LyleHesse cutter.   Got into the
cockpit, looked through the c'way, recognized them in what seemed like a
tiny dark tunnel of sturdy woodwork,  gear and gloom.  Had my chance, but
never went below.

Thank the gods for our bright and cheerful plastic cruisers.

Great to hear things are progressing and yes, what a totally crazy Year!
Stay safe Ebb
Pictures please

I know I've checked in between now and back when the first 'new' pics were posted, dunno how I missed them, but - ALRIGHT! Way to go Ebb, she is looking fantabulous!!!

And of course I'll join in the hue and cry - more pics please! :D

I wish I was close enough to come help you straighten out both the typing and the picture posting issues. It is very good to know that you and Lil Gull are still in the hunt, though. :) Fingers crossed, good lord willing and if'n the creek don't rise - here's hoping next year gets a lot better somehow, despite how it looks right now!

Kurt,  Pardon me for not knowing if you are still active on the water..
I've gotten old in years and with some problems that come with it.
But I'm brave, and Lilgull will outlive me.

Thus I INTEND to get Lilguil sailing.  Her mast has been s l o w l y
(7 months,  and totally aware of our plight) altered to accept a
Solent stay and a Code Zero.  Yesterday 12/2/20 the rig was
measured by Chris with Carol Hasse' on the phone for the better
part of the morning.  I was a spectator, altho I wouldn't have
minded 'holding the other end of the tape'.  BUT it's done!. Can't
wait for the exciting invoice!!

[The miracle will be heading out the Gate toward Hawaii.}

I wish I had your help, really do.  


Here I am 'homeless' , a candidate for assisted living,  and the
idiots still haven't figured out to keep the old folks alive! (news:
outbreaks of 60/80 patients in separate unconnected facilities)
And that's just local, because the media seems as incompetent
reporting whole news, neutral news.  Since the assisted are
waiting to die,  Their diet, their food is probably incompetant
and indifferent, health is not on the menu.

Incompetence is pandemic.  I'm no different.  Indifference has been
made popular, 70 million people voted for it,  I have never forgiven
the german's adoration for Hitler.  It has happened again.  
What's in Hawaii?


NEXT IMMEDIATE PROJECTS
Bill wants interior shots.  But stopped because I want help from Jose
(a former Specter employee worker here at Spaulding) who has
experience in Spectre watermaker setups. It has a lot of parts that
need location experience in ting cabin.  And what the hell is Ebb doing
with a desalinater anyway?

HARD RAILS
Had beautiful set of hard stern rail made with the idea of hanging
SunPower flex panels from.  Hard rail will go as far as the cabin
with new bling  stanchions attached to the 'bulwark', rather than
the deck.
 
TO HANG 110w SUNPOWER FLEX PANELS
Been working with a genius down the street here to figure out how
to hang the panels (create a light aluminum frame for each of four)
from the tube rail,  to allow  the 110w panels to be aimed at the sun
while balanced horizontally on top tube, and carried vertically,  and
fairly easily removed when trouble is brewing.

NAVY 6.0 -- 9.9HP EQUIV ELECTRIC OB
And cohabit the solar with an epropulsion electric 9.9hp OB (HongKong)
--  powered with their own 48v lithium.  Look it up! They have produced
the 9.9hp equivalent (motor in water behind the prop like Torqeedo)
electric/lithium 65lb OB that Torqeedo forgot.  Torqeedo's Cruise series
are trolling OBs, meant to go slow.  Epropulsion's so-called Navy 6.0 can
push a displacement sailboat with it's low pitch prop,  but also plane an
airboat with a high pitch.  The OB is cheaper but the batteries aren't.  
$12,000 min, motor, accessories,  four 48v batteries matched to OB.
(dream-on McDuff..)

photos?

Hey Ebb -
Yes, still living aboard, still have "Katie Marie" and though she's lain fallow for a few years while I've been living aboard larger boats, she's still and always my favorite, and I've been aboard her at least weekly in this meanwhile thinking dreaming plotting, trying to figure out how best to make her the "One and Only". :)
To that end I'll be starting to put wood and resin back into her this month, the beginning of her resurrection. I'll post something up over in my thread about that soon. :)
Looking forward to hearing more about Lil Gull!

GOODBUY TROGEAR

Have to mention that.  Because that  labor thing is costing a bundle.

If indeed I do go cruising, some chain will be necessary.  Haven't got
a winch and don't have room for one,  and it's too heavy to add to
all that junk up front just to have a light air sail, and the chain. !@#$%&!.



COMPUTER  JUST ERASED THE WHOLE DAMN POST !@#$%^^&&*(((^$!@@#%^&*)(*^$##%!!

Nice you have your sails!
Simple advice:
Don't overthink it...
"Gitterdun" and get cruising!
And...


And....
 


PICTURES !!!

Please😁

Hey Frank, yer on point.

and it actually just erased a singhle line
to hell with it - see you soon


up top on an address bar in front of the pearson address
it says site is Not Secure

Just had this post ERASED mid sentamce

and removed from the site

it's not me and not the computyer

adios amigos

Hmm.  No one else seems to have these problems . . . . Are you still on the plantation's network?

I'm hunt and peck.  Think this computer just gets tired of waiting
.
(It just erased a second line here)  I touched nothing, except  the last letter.

It may be the mouse.

It's a death algorithm.  Robots are taking over.  Humans are illogical

It's time to make a move.  But climate change will get them too

When we both are gone there will be no problems

Cockroaches will rule, Monarchs and bees will come back

But all the yachts will still be in the marinas - waiting

A LITTLE BIT OF CATCH-UP
The HARDEAILS have been installed on litlgull (who's varnish I've abandoned
and the boat looks horrible.  Just went back a year in  my inbox and found
a couple great photos by Mike Klass of Tom Heering's rendition of one side of
the rails.  
The pushpit really is two three-legged curved corners with the center open.
The stanchions here  have bases  that bolt thru the deck.
All sheer  stanchions now have welded 4 bolt vertical bases and moved off
the deck to the toe-rail bulwark.  Chris at Spaulding insisted on full bronze
matching square plates for the exposed outside.  Less bling when they green
 over with benign neglect .  
It would be most appropriate if the comfortable looking shop at White Water
Marine where Mike took a couple of first photos of Tom's  masterpiece were
right here in these pages.


Getting rid of the wishbone bowsprit has caused a cascade of problems how
to support the anchor roller far enough forward and the Facnor tube bowsprit
likewise extended forward of the stem fitting.  My intuition is out of
commission.  The Facnor has to come from France (via Tunisia). Only UPS
can squire foreign purchases thru the morass of foreign boundaries.  Haven't
even seen it yet

The old Pulpit forward legs are taking up too much real-estate.  Have a mockup
of the a.roller and it needs wiggle room to point chain and line down the aisle,
because the idiot skipper put a Bomar hatch in the front deck (into the
forepeak.)  Keep smacking into unfortunate good ideas I had..  Have no-one
to humor me,  I mean to fling ideas around with.  I'm now in the old man box.
No back patting, when folks reach out it's under my arms they reach for,
looks like FredFeeble needs help  keeping upright.. Probably does.

Tom Heering's rails are incredibly gorgeous,  right up where craft becomes art..

5 MINUTE EPOXY - 1 OZ DOUBLE SYRINGE

We've used this forever.  Glue mock-ups into 3D models.  Recently in the hardware
went to the blister-pac wall to get a couple of those syringes of usually clear 2-part
you squeeze out small amounts and quickly mix together.  The Devcon's are gone.
I bought the last one.
We have to cut the nozzle ends off with the pocket knife.  Never sure where to cut,
and the cut is never precise,  And since the nozzles are placed close together on
the tube,  the double stop plug is small and hard to handle.  Easily get them mixed,
weld the cap on.  One side was always clear and runny,  the other is thicker, has
a bit of color and  harder to squeeze a matching equal worm.
Always try to mix with a flexible 1" putty-knife.  If the weather is hot you have 2
of the 5 minutes.
The more liquid mixes get more runny when they heat up chemically.  You have 2
seconds to save your mixing knife from near permanent encapsulation.  The runny
stuff really is useless for model building.  But use it anyway because you don't use
pressure to get a bond. It comes so conveniently packaged. Like icecreme on a stick.

During the same week went back to the same blister-pac display only to find the
last Devcon was really the last.  Suddenly, now replaced with LocTite ounce syringes,
none 5 minute.  One 'extended time', which I got, and later read the package only
to find it was a 1 hour set, 3 to get hard.  Plenty of time for the glue to run out..
Could not get the cap on the nozzles.

And,  I will never buy the Grizzly 5-minute again -- because the cap is tiny and not
sided as most are to plug the right hole without a magnifying glass. I couldn't
get the plug in nor over the holes -- wiped off the mess with 91% isopropyl alcohol
and stuck bluetape over the end.  Works just fine, but it has to stick to the plastic
film label wrap.  HOWEVER,  IT'S ALL OVER NOW, BABY..

PC SUPER EPOXY
Into this picture steps PC-Super Epoxy.  PC has been around for 100 years.  Not
known for 5-minute glues, altho they have a bunch of glues you might look into.*
The 1/2oz-1/2oz double tube I'm about to describe has no wrap around plastic
label that slides off when you pull back the plunger.  You have to do this little
rule after you squeeze, everytime,  Sucking the liquid back with the plunger
keeps things neat.  P.C.S.E has no film label wrapped on the tube.
* one of which is a cold weather 5-minute epoxy!
 
Most surprising: the two nozzles are ALREADY OPEN. - you are instructed to
grasp the tab at the end and twist 1/4 turn.  pull the stopper out of the recess,
voila, beautiful precise clean holes.
More:  the glue is a paste.  Both sides are the same consistency,  worms extrude
equally.  one is whitish,  one is bluish,  mix until one translucent mass,  you
are clued when you've mixed enough.  Since it has body it's easy to control the mix.
Use the mixing knife to mound it on a joint edge,  lay/prop pieces together,  no drip,
no sag.  
Pull back slightly on the plunger.  (Have a Q-tip handy to pluck out any dribble.)
Put the stopper back in the tube and twist lock-it.  Nobody else has this.  It's
beautiful.  But you see, since it is a soft paste, it's not going to dribble out at all.

And not lastly,  the set time is extended 15 minutes.  Quite the right extension for
a relaxed episode,  depending on the temp.
It's MadeInAmerica, flag and all.  There are excellent non-political  reasons why
these days that's a good thing. At the hardware,  most of the tools come from
China.  You want the jobs here at a living wage.

Bit more:  the clear plastic blister covering the syringe on the card is very thin
making it easy to slice the tool out of the package.  Often a dangerous fight with
a  utility knife.
Altogether a 5-minute epoxy that's really unique,  thoughtful, intelligent, in that
it's the way 5-minute epoxy always should have been presented.  Finally!
As it says across the top of the package:  FIX YOUR THINGS PC


Ebb is in no way connected with this company.  I'm trying to celebrate an old
product that finally has put a bunch of consumer friendly ideas to work to make
it almost entirely new.  You may find  the product wanting.  I thought the package
showed a lot  of real innovation, all the useful little things, all coming together
in a fine upgrade of an old product.. what a relief!!

Litlgull splash. New rails are substantial but will be used to hang solar panels to power bats for electric OB, water maker.. no fossil gospel..:cool:

Spaulding Boatwerks has asked me to move Litlgull elsewhere.
Moving the boat next door to the Arquez marina  is not possible.
It is full of derelict houseboats and others.  It looks unchanged
from 25 years ago when I left with the Ariel.  Can't believe It's
been that long!  And will I still be able to skipper the dream??

Either back to SanRafael  or elsewhere,  It's just as sticky to leave
where we're not wanted, as it has been to make all the illadvised
changes that robbed me of decades sailing the oceans.

I think Chris must have made a tacit promise to Hasse that the
sails would be rigged to the boat.  I will try to get him to do thar
before I leave.
There is a tangle of halyards at the mast that have routes secret
to me..  I installed a couple cheekblocks at the masthead for a
runged ladder idea,  that now will be halyarded.
Also the watermaker has not been proofed.  Stuff I've been
 reminded  I still must pay for.
This while being scurried  away like garbage.  They do bottom
jobs and minor repairs as main income.  And, now that Covid's
in decline the tourists are back. Troops of kids.  And there is a
fleet of Pelicans being assembled inside the shop of laser-cut
parts and fiberglass.  Spaulding has more important things to do.

I also let Chris order a Facnor bowsprit for me,  still in the works,
no idea when it will arrive presumably from France. No feedback
from the chief.  Should have done it myself,  but thought it was
good form to have Spaulding handle it.

Wherever we end up, it'll be developing a new s.s. plate 'extension'
that will stick out forward of the original bowfitting to support both
the anchor roller AND the center of the Facnor pole sprit..
 
Decided on a new Pulpit, the old out of round, crushed in front
and crooked, not yet ordered.  Have to make an exact pattern
because I would like to do the impossible,  that is to move the
aft leg bases  to the bulworks and the front legs to the molded
toerail -- sans the bulwork for warp chocks-- in effort to claim
more wiggle-room to position the sprit  and anchor gear.
Uninterrupted access on the hard will make it easier and sooner
done..  ..  ..  if I stay fit!

There will be more on the SunPower Flex panels that will hang
to the hard rails.

Never imagined how difficult it is to fit reality, per se, into a dream.

Here's a mental picture for you.

UP NAPA RIVER WITHOUT A PADDLE
a visit to the Napa Valley Marina

Recently, masks coming off,  Covid mutations fighting back against non-vaccinators,
changing times, miles of something new:  miles long stop and crawl traffic, no
accidents, just sheer volume on the north bound road into Sonoma. It was Steve
who suggested looking closer to home..  On a Saturday took the Element east into
 Napa County and south onto a long straight and then winding rural road out back.

Sighted masts and cruised a stretch lined with large yachts perched on their keels.
Turned into the marina, straight-off found an open-door men's room and a marine
flea market in progress.  Went into the store and found it shared a door with the
marina office.  "Come back Monday." said the skinny guy behind the counter.

Ambled into the huge yard with huge dead elephants waiting for god.  One or two
pickups parked in the casual groupings, no ladders against hulls.  Altho it was a
Saturday there were no radios blasting and not a single sander,  dead quiet.


After a doctors appt,  arrived back at the marina office just before noon,  to find
what appeared to be the yardmaster sipping soup at his desk.  Came back at 12:30
and this happened:

Showed him, a large balding power figure, an image of Litlgull on my phone. He
brought out a green colored sheet of paper covered with 3 columns of price lists.
My boat would be charged daily lay days of $40 for 15 days, then $300 per month.
But if I was working on the boat, the rate jumps to $500,  but longer than 3
months the rate jumps again to $750 (for a mono-hull to 44').
My brain Overflowed.  Wanted a place to work, not punishment.

One item on a list of services for moving boats stands: $30.
Another was a "corkage fee" for paint not bought at the marina store: $10 a ft.
A fine of $260 for Litlgull using an open qt of Epifanes -- or a gallon of bottom.

As I turned to go, he said, "September x is when we can fit you in.."  That was two
months away.  I flashed, three marine ways are virtually empty, looked unused,
there's one 30' yacht parked on the floats, two live yachts on the hard gravel at the
head of the ways, no human activity.  I got the message and left.  The marina
looks historic and pleasantly incredibly neat, like a movie set.. waiting for the actors
to show up.
I drove past the elephants.. never to return.

Reasoned:  the traffic problem wld soon return to something like normal.
This sleepy  yard of money games is   NO PLACE FOR THE LIKES OF EBB.

MARK HARRINGTON'S SLING-SHOT EFFECT

WITNESS  INCREDIBLE BOATMANSHIP

A RECORD SETTING YACHT PUT


Hardly a powerful enuf phrase to describe what I, for lack of a full vocabulary
experienced at MattButler's SanRafael Yacht Harbor, when THURSDAY CLUB member's
of the Alberg Fleet SanFrancisco:  Steve Cossman,  Ian Elliott, skipper of the Triton  
SANCTUARY,
and Mark Harrington volunteered  to tow Litlgull, engine-less, sail-less,  skipper-less
Ebbster  back to where he sprung (and towed away from) in recent memory.

The tow can last 2 1/2 hours,  Sausalito to SanRafael,  by auto takes 20 minutes.  
But on the end of a 50' line, on a calm  balmy day,  it is life-embracing.  Uneventful
except for some errant waves, "Ferryboat," said Steve, also aboard in the cockpit, no
ferryboat anywhere in sight.   And a spectacle
 in the form of a gigantic dark barge with a tall light colored pilot house like a freaky
church tower.. which seemed  to be closing rapidly on us with a huge boxy derrick
that growled and clanked loudly and wildly swung it's enormous bucket one side to
the other, opening and clanging shut its mouth as it gained on us and passed in the
next opening under the RichmondBridge -- like a T-Rex on a loose and lunatic island.

We arrive an hour later, up an endless estuary of expensive real-estate,  and park in a
convenient doublewide slip  close to the Harbor entrance just ahead.  Phone calls to
locate the harbormaster fruitless.  Ian takes the guys up into the Harbor to suss out
the situation, No Matt.  No promised dinghy with an outboard to tow po'  Litlgull in..
and under the crane for lift out.  


MAKING THE COMPLEX LOOK SPONTANEOUS AND EASY
Then the extraordinary:  Mark in deep discussion with Steve and Ian.  They ask me
to hop into Ian's boat while they stay with Litlgull on the floats.
Ian backs out,   Steve and Mark proceed by hand to swing Litlgull around bow out.
Ian motors ahead and stops stern on to the bow of Litlgull.
Steve and Mark, already onboard, hand Ian a line that he ties Litlgull about two feet off
his stern.  He motors us up to the Harbor entrance, hangs left,  suddenly accelerates.
 
He yanks the tow line loose.  Look back to see Litlgull turning into the lane wit6h a
respectable bow wave charging down the row of parked vessels heading  for the crane.

We, on Sanctuay, without the boat in tow, keep going into the inner harbor packed with
boats and floats of every ilk -- and into a puddle of  empty water -- Ian heads strate for
the flank of some cabincruiserish thing at the end of a float -- just before  he T-bones,  
pushes the tiller down, swings on a silver dollar into a pure 180,  cuts speed, coasts
back out the way we just arrived,  but stops where Litlgull  just disappeared into.

He waits, engine running, at the end of the dock for the guys.  They dash up and hand
me down into a small godforsaken metal launch with a large black oily hole in its deck
where an engine once lived.

Clamber out, suddenly the voyage is over! Hail goodbyes, see you at breakfast,  and
turn down the float to find Litlgull, quietly nodding,   tied to the horizontal float used to
orient vessels for haul out by BUCKYRUS EIRE looming like a Jurassic skeleton overhead,
painted GoldenGateOrange. Welcome back!

How often has  the Thursday gang practiced this Sling Shot Effect??  THE  YACHT PUT.
   
What I witnessed is like what individual jazz players hope to arrive at when they improv
with the tune -- and stream it  together  to a heartbeat, exciting and  beautiful.

Just think, Litlgull spontaneously sling shotted  into the futur to  silent applause..  
Ian's alto sax harmonizing with Sanctuary's beat, a perfect riff..  never  recorded for
posterity and keepers of the faith.  
Except for Prospero here.

That I witnessed.   Hear it?  Ella  easing it together  with a long sweet note.
My luck is unfolding --  what I witnessed: Never forgot!  Holy catfish!  Thanks guys!!

_______________________________________________________________________
KURT (see below) BEYOND THE PALE

Years ago,  serendipity became a popular word.  It's when something fortunate
happens by chance that's special.  Was watching by chance as Ryan Crouser stepped
up, wound up gracefully, twirled his big body around, with a grimace and a yelp,

performed a new distance by pushing a 16 pound iron ball 75 feet for a new world
and new Olympic record.  What we know as 'a Gold Metal performance'.

When a world class record is made it's right on the edge of serendipity.  A star
with easy prowess often pushes chance over its boundary.  a Shot Putter won't ever
make 32 million dollars a year doing his art.  It was a privilege seeing something
maybe I'll may never see again.. And it may not have been a touchdown or a
bases loaded homerun,  but I saw 3 guys PUT a 3ton yacht for Gold.

Serendipity provided the lovely pun.  The Alberg Fleet their expertise.
The amazing thing, they did it first try -- litlgull witnessed Gold.
______________________________________________________________________

"Yacht Put" - yer killin me :D Love it!

Letters and LarusMinutas are 8-10" and will be applied to the hull just under the rub rail at the sheer in the region of the cockpit.  Ray Balanger Apache Signs is the inspiration for the font, my art is blatant borrowing, Ebb contributed some arrangement.  Ray is the genius.  Port of Call for documentation will be San Francisco CA in 4" letters across the top of the transom.

THANKS  BILL  !!
Large image is a bit much. Wasn't planned.  But Ray was exchanging emails.
I all along after absorbing the shock of first seeing the hollow letters, still was
suggesting more airyness in the spread of the letters, and by the fourth try
this is what appeared -- as large.
Ray had pasted the first samples on an image of the starboard side of the
boat -- this one only shows the sheer rub rail.  It does mean that the name
will be rather large to my eye,  as I wasn't ready for this,  not having  fully
imagined it.
Still not sure if I'm ready for the boat name to be plastered all over the hull
like a freighter.. if Little Gull was wood, name and port would never have escaped
the transom.  And like the port of call, all block upper-case letters devoid of air,
stiff and proper like sailors on muster.
But I almost immediately accepted the relaxed hollow letters, and their cartoony  
casual nature.

Realize the contraction of little into lit (e)l  will upset some, altho  argument has
little weight given what has happened to language since the advent of the
personal computer.
The 'g' is now the fulcrum of some stems of balanced font shapes that might be
seen on a poster or book cover.  To me the play is restrained enuf, it might
be controversial but it's contemporary.

Supple translation of the contracted name: litlgull with Ray's careful choreography
or spread of the individual letters is lit (e)l gull.. .. .. all instantly readable..


Kind of like arguing whether the letter x is a necessary letter in the alphabet!
It ain't serious it's for fun. Given Ray, to translate onto vinyl, another bird lozenge
more realistic less outlined.   Crazy weather,  everything seems half fast.

Novice here. Is the knee solid figerglass or is there an internal material made out of ???  I'm considering removing the shelf that is glassed to the knee on both sides and wonder if there would be structural issues.