Ariel & Commander Owners

Well I finally did it. I flew to Vermont on Friday and on Saturday I bought commander # 147. :D:D
 
She will be trucked to Florida in the next couple of weeks and then put on a trailer that we are building for her and brought to my home where I can do the stuff that is necessary to put her back into commission. While the "need to" list is relatively short, the "want to" list is very long and I will spend my summers (off season here in Florida thanks to summer thunderstorms) rebuilding this boat stem to stern. I can't wait to get started. :D:)

Congrats!  Even at its worst (scrape-sand-fill-scrape-sand-fill-sc......)it is wonderful fun!

WAAAA-HOOOOO!!!!  CONGRATS!!

Pictures, pictures, pictures!

...and you'll have to change your screen name :D

Ditto!!!

:p

Willbe?!  Is!  Congratulations to you.  But I can't see a thing that needs to be done from that photo-other than relocating.  

You can start with photos of the trailer.  Just keep them coming, I'm sure we'll let you know when to stop.:D  Realize, however, no one has reached that point yet.

It looks Beautiful! Let us know the details of your to-do list... (I'm curious!)

She might be the closest sibling to C-155... (??)

What is her name?

Interesting aft winch bases... Would you mind shooting a picture for me?

Congratulations and welcome to the board!

Lucky Dawg
 
As you can see Bill is right on top of things here, my screen name is now more appropriate. :)
 
Rico
 
I am more than happy to shoot any pictures you or anyone else would like. The boat is still in Vermont and per a conversation with the yacht transport company today they will likely pick up the boat either tomorrow afternoon or Thursday morning and head to Florida with her. I will probably see her next on Monday or Tuesday.
 
The company building the trailer is in Georgia and I'm hoping to be able to pick up the trailer this weekend so I can put the boat straight on the trailer and bring her back to my house so I can get started working on her.
 
Her name currently is Daydream. That may change down the road but for now I need to get to know her better before I change it.
 
The aft winch bases I'm told have been on the boat for 20 years or more. The previous owner had the boat for 17 years and they were installed by the owner prior to him. They are nice when you are single handing the boat because they are closer to get to. Here is a shot I got from the prior owner showing them a bit closer up.
 
BTW Rico do you still have that pivoting mast base you offered for sale? I may be interested in buying it.

Like others:
A hearty Congratulations is in order.  I remember seeing her when she was listed for sale. I had emailed the previous owner who answered all my questions. I never did persue her for a couple of reasons but....from the answers I got, as well as the photos provided, it appeared she (your Commander, currently know as "Day Dream") was in excellent shape and ready to be enjoyed.
   If it were me, I'd think about enjoying her for the summer, then start attacking your "want to" and "desire" list. You may find that the priorities change as you and her develop a bond and you get to know her more.
 
   Enjoy and keep the photos coming. It help us, especially me, out and keeps many motiviated.

I intend to sail her as soon as possible. And she is not my first boat and I truely understand the bond between a boat and her owner. There are however some things I must to because the boat is not splash ready the way she is now.
 
First the previous owner was bringing the boat to a marina he normally did not go to, to have the boat hauled last fall. He hit a rock with the keel and caused some damage that I need to repair. I have included a picture of the damage below. And while I'm repairing that I'm also going to address the minor blistering that I believe was caused by a barrier coat that was applied that sealed water in the keel instead of sealing it out. Then I will strip the bottom and redo the barrier coat and apply bottom paint that is appropriate for my area.
 
When I complete that I need to stop the wet core in the deck from getting any wetter and try to recover from what has already occured. The chain plates have been leaking for some time and there is already some spongy deck in a small area on the port side. There is also a wet core near the bow in the area I circled in the second picture in red. That area also has a small spongy area. That area sustained damage in a storm and that is why you see the small disks under the pulpit bases. It was a cover up repair.
 
And last but not least the lake I plan to put the boat in initially does not have a lift so I need a mast raising system that does not require a crane. I know what I want to do but I need to get it done. As part of that setup I want to replace the wood that is currently under the mast with the aluminum base.

Hello,
   I can truely understand your motivation and determination to fix the criticals and get it "right". Thanks for the photos, nicely done. I have no Idea how you drew lines, arrows and circles one the one photo, but sense your very computer savvy too.
 
That PO's redevous with a submerged rock must have been a real nightmare. I would definately call that "hard" aground, although perhaps not stuck.

What was the appeal of this boat over the Commander that was for sale in Jax. FL ?
Are you getting your trailer from Sail Trailers in Col. GA? Those area couple of great folks, small boat sailors. They may have some insight into a mast raising system. When I mentioned launching an Ariel from a trailer to them and said I was skeptical  They seemed to think it was no big deal.
It's a very good time of year to  move a boat south.. Good Luck

The boat in Jacksonville was significantly worse off compared to this boat. And I did not pay any more for this one than I would have had to pay for that one. Yes I had to ship it down here but it would have cost me a lot more to bring the Jacksonville boat up to the same level of repair than the shipping cost me for this one.
 
Yes the trailer is coming from Sail Trailer in GA. I have dealt with Spence there and so far so good. I'll let you know more when I get the boat on the trailer and see how everything looks. I did talk to Spence about a mast raising system and I decided to go another way. I will post pics of my mast raising method when I have it set up.
 
I actually got a pretty good price to move the boat down here because so many boats are going north now. Hope all goes well and I see her in good shape on Monday.

Quote from: Commander 147;19249I did talk to Spence about a mast raising system and I decided to go another way. I will post pics of my mast raising method when I have it set up..

Did you see post #15 in the Mephisto Cat thread for a tabernacle option?

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=1552

I did see Rico's work and I was impressed. I already have the info on the hinged mast base thanks to Rico so I can buy one (Rico has sold the one he had) and plan to do an aluminum base similar to the one he did. I am very impressed with many of the things he has done to Mephisto Cat and hope I can do as well with my commander.

Happy, Happy boat day!
Looks like you got a real beauty there. I love the picture with the PO sailing her ( I know its hard to see her look so happy with another man... but she's all yours now).
Good luck with the transport and trailer fitting, I hope it all goes smoothly.
Keep us posted.

The yacht transfer company delivered my commander to me today. We got her put on the trailer which included a few small issues that we needed to solve and she is in my back yard tonight. Next I need to construct the new boat house so I have a place to work on her.

I've decided to call commander 147 "Destiny". In 1977 I decided to move to Florida from Wisconsin. One of my goals for the move was to get involved with sailing and learn to sail. Not very long after I got down here I bought a 16' daysailer and I taught myself how to sail. I feel like everything from that time until now has been prepairing me for this time and this boat. So "Destiny" seems to fit.
 
Tonight I finally got the new boat house to the point where I could move her in and start in earnest on her repairs and upgrades. Here are a few photos showing the construction of her new home when she is not in the water. In the first picture you can see where the previous boat house was (just to the right of to Destiny) that I dissasembled and salvaged all of the parts for in the construction of the new boat house.

Mmmmmm.... boat shed. Fantastic!  :p

As we discussed in the keel voids thread C147 has had a weeping keel. It now appears that the reason is due to a bad bottom job previously by the boatyard up in Vermont where she was kept for the last 15 years.
 
We previously thought it was due to water in the foam inside the keel freezing and thawing and crazing the gelcoat to the point where it was no longer a barrier for water. And while I still believe that is part of the problem I think a bigger part is what looks like an over zealous sandblasting job on the keel. Significant amounts of the gelcoat have been blasted away and then a filler was spread over it to try and correct it. This allowed water inside that has totally saturated the foam inside. Take a look at the picture and you can see as I sand down through the filler what I'm finding underneath it. Note also the water seeping out through the keel in the area where I have not yet removed all the foam inside (the dark spots on the pink filler).
 
My plan currently is to finish sanding the outside of the keel and finish removing all the water saturated foam inside. This will allow everything to dry out while I work on other projects. There are probably many differant ways to repair this hull an I'm sure I do not know them all. I am interested in gathering information to make a decision on the best way to proceed.
Any advice or recommendations are welcome.

With my limited knowledge of the "Fantastic Plastic", I don't think the gelcoat is the moisture barrier for the fiberglass. What are you finding inside when removing the foam? As related to the hull laminate. I would think the hull laminate has been compromised and will require cloth and reglassing on both sides if possible.
 I am sure a more experienced response is forthcoming.
 A sandblaster is a harsh way to remove paint/gelcoat from fiberglass.
  Good Luck.

I'm making progress pulling all of the water logged foam out of the keel. You can see it is still plenty wet in there. That foam does not give up the water easy either. The water stays in the foam and does not drain out.
 
In the first picture you can see the aft end of the lead ballast starting to peek out of the foam.
 
The second picture is aft of the first and I circled where the rudder shoe is. Seems they liked to throw trash inside the keel before they they poured in the foam. I dug out small chunks of wood and you can see a piece of broken fiberglass in both pictures.
 
The third picture is looking even further back.

The lead ballast does not go as far back in my commander as the design drawing from the old brochure.

Looking very good, Some thing you may want to try once you clean this area up is, at night I would place a very bright light Quartz work light inside the keel and go to the outside of the boat and see if you can identify the leaking areas and mark with a pencil where the filling is required, this may also Identify where you may have some freeze expansion damage.
 If you view Ebb's work done in the keel / bilge area , the gussets or bridging he did from one side of the hull to the other in this area really looks like it adds a great deal of strength.
 That can't be pleasant work but you've made great progress:)

As a matter of fact two days ago I was looking through Ebb's gallery to look again at the keel area work he did. I want to add a brace or bulkhead or what ever the correct term for it would be just in front of the rudder shoe since this is a lifting point and it needs to be strong. I thought I would pack some thickened epoxy with glass fibers down in the bottom of the keel to bury the area where the rudder shoe attaches and make sure it can never leak there. Then add the brace. I also think I will slope the glass that encloses the keel down into this area so everything drains down to this low point. Then I will run the suction hose for the bildge pump down there.
 
I like your idea of the light to locate possible leaks. I will have to try that. I can see light through the keel in the areas where they blasted through the gelcoat already.
 
You're right it is not pleasant work. I work a couple hours each night and come out soaking wet with sweat. The temperature here in Florida has been running over 80 degrees at 8:00PM and over 90 degrees at 5:00PM. Hard work for a guy that spends his days in an office on the phone but well worth it in the end.

If you are not crazy enough to take on digging out the wet foam in the keel you will not see what I found so I though I would show you.
 
I thought you would like to see how easy water can come into your hull from the strap on the rudder. The first picture shows the two screwdrivers I stuck through the bolt holes for the strap in the middle of the rudder.
 
The second picture is the shafts of those screwdrivers inside the hull. There is no reinforcement inside the hull at that area and the only thing stopping water from leaking into the boat is whatever sealant you have there. It might be a good idea to drill those holes larger, pack them full of thickend epoxy and then redrill them the correct size so you have something other than sealant keeping water out.
 
For me I'm going to built up an area in there with fiberglass to strengthen and seal it so it will never leak there again.

nice screwdrivers!:D:D:D.
 Must say , that is startling, you're boat must have this leakage problem since day one.
 You are definitely moving forward in making your bilge dry

Good to know about that rudder strap!  How about the shoe area though, is it the same? Or is the bottom thick enough that they're inside the glass? (I read someone's post on the shoe, but can't remember more than basic details.)

 Would seem to answer why the foam is waterlogged in so many of these boats.

My boat isn't in the water yet, so I think I'll check that out, and take your advice on overbore/filling the holes.
 
Ken.

Hey Kendall, you're scaring me!
No over-bore down there!
 It's just fiberglass, what there is of it, NO CORE.

My fix:
Scrape the cavity with carbide scrapers (Bacho)  Remove any loose stuff.
Make paper patterns (Really!) of the port side and the starboard side (obviously they are flipflops)
Allow ONLY one 90 degree turn into the ends and on the bottom.  NO U TURNS, they get out of control.
Cut XMATT so that each panel you put in laps only over the  other side's panel in the end and the bottom of the keel.


Xmatt is stiff enough initially so that after you have cut it to the paper pattern size you can FIT it into the cavity AND take it out again.  You will want to remove darts of material where it wants to bunch.  I would put in at least 2 layers of 24oz.  What you are doing is also a dry run.  Epoxy has a short open time after mix.  In the cup it is way shorter than when spread thin.  Epoxy when it's cool.

Lay out some plastic film, lay the cut-to-fit  Xmatt on it and wet it out with 2part epoxy.  Drape it into place in the keel which has also been wet out (IMPORTANT, make sure you are putting wet material on a wet surface.  Only way you can get a mate, with no holidays.) Unlike woven fiberglass, you CAN reposition Xmatt, just not too many times befor it starts falling apart.

Use a throw-away brush to poke the Xmatt into the corners. I go so far as to sharpie pen hash marks where the turns are to be on the fabric.  It makes positioning easier when it is wet.  If you feel you can put the second layer on top of the first wet layer, go for it.  Otherwise let it stiffen up some, or come back the next day.  Next day will no doubt require some prep.  I like to alternate one side's lap over the other for the strength it makes.  Use the brush to poke the fabric into the epoxy.  If you have created a bridge with the fabric over a depression, slice the wet fabric with a utility knife and pat it down.  Patch it later if needed, or paste on a piece of scrap.

If the surface is too weird and you know you won't be able to get a solid no holiday layer, you can mix up some epoxy and fumed silica gel to smear over the problem 'cavity' just before the fabric  Quickly.  Just pat it flat with your latex gloved hand.

After your reinforcing layer(s) are in, then you want to add a bunch of mishmash (2part laminating epoxy - f. silica - 1/4"/1/2" chopped strand fiberglass.)  Mix it stiff so you can sculpt it over the area where the gudgeon fastenings go - so the the fastenings are not exposed in the keel cavity. Tab in a piece of Xmatt or fabric over the glob so that it ends up relatively smooth.

Xmatt leaves a rough surface.  After it is set you may want to smooth it with the gel mix.  A good smoother is the pliable green applicator that seems to be everywhere.....you can spread the mix on really smooth so that there is little work to do after it is set.


After this work is done then you can add a 'garboard' drain plug.  Make sure it is bronze.
You now have a nice sump to collect water and to have a bilge pump or two.
I'm in the full access camp for boat maintenance.  Foam makes access impossible and creates more problems than it cures.  Fit a lid over the area so socks won't get in.

All imco, hope some of this is helpful, sorry if it seems patronizing.:D
___________________________________________________________________________________________
It's impossible to know what has been in and out of the bilge in 45 years.  To know what oils and waxes and stuff have been there - ARE STILL THERE.
NO, can't use solvents - out of the question.  Scrape, abrade, grind - these are impossible but not lethal.  The Fein tool will allow abrading and scraping near to the bottom of the keel.  Any solvent will screw up the epoxy or any coating going in there next.
Must use 100% solids NO SOLVENT epoxy - unless you want to die.  Do not use West System epoxys here.  Some of their epoxies blush and some use formaldehyde in the hardener side (205). Set up ventilation under the cockpit when working there.

First Kendall
 
No the shoe does not appear to have the same issue. At least not on my boat. I looks like they added some extra roving saturated with resin in the area of the shoe. Just the same I am going to build it up more in that area just to make sure I have no future problems.
 
Ebb
 
What would be a good way to fix the water intrusion in that area so you don't have to rely on strictly sealant in an underwater location like that? There must be some way other than digging out all the foam like I am.

I guess there has to be an each individual boat fix, a good enough fix.

Then there's ebb's way.

Water gets in obviously thru the laminate.
Thru stupid everetts like we've just seen with the gudgeon fastenings entering and going thru the interior OPEN SPACE of the keel.:eek::eek::eek:
AND 'intrusion' like all other water that gets in from above.

Water is going to go to the lowest point, no matter what.
Water is the UNIVERSAL SOLVENT.  Boaters know that.
There's no film, caulk, sealant, adhesive or FOAM that will keep the water out.

I believe what you are doing is the correct solution.  If you have integrity in the laminate in the keel area, great!  I might just paint in waterproofing with some super garage floor polyurethane rubber type stuff.  The kind that advertise themselves as water blockers.  Not over foam.

Adding a layer of 6oz fiberglass to the outside crazed gelcoat is good too.  The cloth is added to create thickness for your barrier.  Put on in the hollow of the bilge it is easy to make the reinforcement disappear with fillers and fairing.  

My gut feeling that if you want strength too,  it's better - but MUCH more awkward - to add it inside.

 I don't see how a fix can be freehanded with fouled foam in place.


338's heel fitting was attached to crumpled glass and crystallized plastic.  Only two pins/bolts were thru something 'solid' - and that solid was pure no glass polyester resin - from the factory! It's a bad place down there to get good lamination - with correct fabric to resin ratio.:rolleyes:
Anybody's Ariel/Commander has to keep this in mind when upgrading.  But that's another thread.

I've finished taking out the foam I can get to. What is left is on the sides and under the lead ballast and there is still water in that little bit of foam also. So my plan is to finish my sanding on the outside so the glass can let out moisture that way and burn a 40 watt light bulb inside to get everything dry.
 
After I get it all dry and build up the bottom of the keel some to further bury the heel fitting bolts I want to add a bulkhead with a cutout in the bottom so water can get back and forth under it starting just in front of the heel fitting to strengthen the keel in that area. When you added these bulkheads were they plywood that you covered in cloth and epoxy or some other material?

Sounds good!
Those are crispy epoxy/Xmatt tacos.  5 or six layers of Xmatt.  Under 1/4"
They are that dark because I was using some very old dark amber hardner.

Easy to make on Mylar sheet*.
Build up the panel with same size Xmatt material wetting out each layer as you stack.
You can jigsaw the 'bulkheads' to fit out of this custom sheet.  
Then fill the corners with generous curved fillets, then tab with Xmatt strips to keep it all amalgamated - and also to spread the point load out on the contact surface - because we're not supposed to put hard panels in at 90 degrees to the hull.


Been avoiding the end of the keel issue.  If we are getting water in there, and there is no IF, there's water entering there - then the argument might be to let the water out.  And let it out easy - on A338 that end of the encapsulated ballast was OPEN.
SO, leave it open!
A338 had no added foam, so the bilge was free to collect water.  There was no attempt by Everett to close off the end of the ballast in A338.  In reality A338's ballast keel should have been free of water since it runs out to the keel bilge.  This was not the case.  (Another thread.)

I decided to fill  the ballast keel void by injecting epoxy thru holes drilled from outside.  I was lucky to remember to close  off  the open end before I'd gone too far in the epoxy filling.  Later the nice straight blkhd was added once the height was established.  And that became the end of the cabin sole.


You can buy fiberglass sheet in various thicknesses from McMasterCarr.  It's polyester and seems after sanding to glue like a champ.  I'm using 1/8".  Could make the argument that  something this thin would work for these small blkhds if they are filleted and tabbed and - as they do - are incorporated into a horizontal panel.
______________________________________________________________________________________
*After  stacking the 5 or 6 or 7 wet Xmatt pieces,  top with mylar film and a very flat panel of some sort.  You'll be making a beautiful flat consistent sheet - try to pull the air bubbles out once the second sheet is on top using the green spreader thingy - on TOP of the mylar.  
The sheet peels right off once the epoxy is set.
If you build up some weight /pressure on that MDO(?) panel, you'll squeeze more of that expensive epoxy out BUT you'll make an even stronger more dense sheet.:cool:
Left overs can be used as backing 'blocks'.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Somebody, maybe the factory, since they seem to have done (and didn't do) so many different things back there in the keel on Commanders and Ariels... somebody filled the very back narrow deep end and the bottom in A338 making a sort of ramp, actually a ramp,  so that water collecting in the bilge  ends up forward at the back of the ballast keel.   In the Ariel it's just about perfect as the sump is under the bridge but accessible.  If an inboard was there the bilge water would still be accessible, sort of, and in the lowest part of the vessel.  Way to go.
This shows you can create a collecting point whereever you want.  The filler seemed rock hard to me so I assumed the mass was made of mat and roving left-overs and resin.  It also had the effect of adding some beef to the bottom of the keel and the rudder shoe area.

I really want to do right by this commander and I have not done a project like this before. So your help is very much appreciated.

I'm in the same position as you are.
It's just that I've been at it longer, longer, longer.

In the beginning and through the decades I've bought many books on every boat subject.  I like books.
Very few concerning the actual work with products have been useful.
Which is natural enough since the reader has to supply his own experience.
There are standouts.  But generally books are general.

Have my own brand of timidity to deal with - when it comes to new processes.  I work alone on A338.  It's my Zen.  
Imagine I'm being helpful when I drag on about things Ariel.  Trying to be specific.
Wished many times that somebody had clewed me in to the processes that I hope I'm sharing.  Experience is public,  we are compelled to trade info.
Hope everybody SHARES their experiences and observations and revelations - whatever they are,


Have been told by Admiral Bill that Ebb can be difficult to understand.
It's shop talk converted into language.  It would be much better and simpler to see processes.
BUT, thinking that youTube videos are the answer,  many instructional ones I seen seem to be as useless as printed talk. Whatever the knack is to put forward a TIP, I'll keep trying until the ax falls.
Never  an expert.  Just reformulating experiences.
AND always In My Considered Opinion. B.S.  It's just the backboard, you have  the ball.

Discussion is the life blood of a Forum.  It's back and forth repartee.  We have a great community and great boats to talk about.  BEST SHOW AND TELL ON THE NET.
Actually we are all in the same Boat.:D
[criminny he does go on and on....]

The Florida heat and humidity were not as oppressive yesterday so I got some things done.
 
The first picture is a template I had made previously for the fiberglass bulkhead I wanted to stiffen up the keel with. The bulkhead was 2-1/2" wide at the bottom and 6" wide at the top. It was 18" tall. The bulkhead was made from 6 layers of 1708 biax and after it kicked I used my pattern to mark the size and cut it out on the bandsaw.
 
The second picture is the bulkhead installed with just the fillets.
 
The third picture is after I tabbed it in. The dark line down the center is a refferance line I drew on the bulkhed with a dry marker to help me line up the biax tabbing when I was putting it in. I left about 1 inch under the bulkhead so water can travel back and forth under it.
 
The forth picture is what the aft end of the ballast looked like after I had cut the fiberglass out that enclosed the foam the factory installed. You can see at the point where I stopped cutting out old glass that there is about 1-1/2" of foam between the glass and the lead ballast. I had to transision down from there to the top of the lead so I made a pattern of the area and marked and cut out the biax to the shape I needed. then I wet out a portion of the biax in the area where it needed to make that transision and let it cure on the bench. Then when I installed the glass in the boat this created a ramp down from the higher level to the top of the lead.
 
You can see the glass installed in the fifth picture. Following Ebb's advice I left the very end of the lead ballast open so any water getting into the keel forward of that point would have an escape route to the bilge.

Bulkheads look great!

I am wondering what function these bulkheads serve?  Does the hull need reinforcement along the bilge??  I am in a good position to install similar on Arthur...just need to know why:confused:!

Thanks for some collective wisdom.

Andrew

What I am starting to learn is that no two Ariels or Commanders are exactly alike. For example my commander had the foam aft of the ballast and fiberglassed over. Commander 227 tells me his had neither. His was wide open. And in just the few commanders I have personally seen all had some differances in how they were built. All similar but all differant.
 
When I took all the foam out of my keel the fiberglass on the sides was in my personnal opinion very thin. the sides would flex very easily. Which they did as I scraped off the foam that stuck to them. And this is one of the lifting points for the boat so just to be on the safe side I decided to strengthen the area with a bulkhead. My personality pushes me to eliminate any potential for failure so I added the bulkhead. Your boat may not it.

:eek:FLEX??
If you are thin down there, where you should NOT be thin, perhaps laying in some Xmat, or similar, should be done now.
I would lay the cloth along the hull interior up onto the bulkheads so that the hull is tied one side to the other - and made thicker.

Tying  the boat together with those small blkhds makes a very STRONG 'I-beam' structure.

Consider doing this where the ballast ends also.

Ok that makes sense.  I have spent a bit of time in the bilge and have not noticed the flex you mention.  Prob as you say no two were made alike.  My bilge is wide open and the pins for the grundgen go thru solid FRP.  Could be a PO removed all the foam?

I agree with the better safe than sorry approach so I'm going to ebb-o-fy with bulkheads too.  Cant hurt and looks pretty straightforward.

Andrew

I have to say the added bulkhead makes a hugh differance in the rigidness of the aft end of the keel. But another added bulkhead above the aft end of the main ballast and biax tying that one to the other one I already installed would make the area incredibly strong. I will have to take a serious look at that.
 
Another issue I have and I don't know if the Boat came out of the mold that way or if the Vermont freeze thaw cycles caused it with the wet foam in the keel. But I have some humps in the port side of the keel in the area where I took all the foam out. I've sanded off the filler the boat yard had put on the keel in that area and it is not a repair or anything like that. It is the original fiberglass that makes the humps. Since this is also the area where the boat yard had sanded through the gelcoat I figured I would finish sanding of the gelcoat in that area so the epoxy would adhear better and fair the hull with some epoxy and microballons then after fairing it out apply the layer of 6oz cloth over the epoxy filler and and finally fair that out before I redid the barrier coat and bottom paint.
 
Opinions on my plans are welcome.

Humps.
Since the Commander was originally laid up in a female mold,
the assumption with a whole lot of certainty is that there would
NOT BE ANY FACTORY BUMPS IN THE HULL.
That is bumps that stick out on the hull.

Any bumps would come from a repair.
If you have access to the inside of the boat opposite any bumps on the outside,
you can probably look down at the roving that Pearson put in and see that it is original, or not.
Pearson's work is often competent but funky - and anybody else's repairs of any age will stand out like a sore thumb.

Sitting here in California I can easily say that I would grind ANY humps flat.  Carefully.  A bump could be some kind of wierd blister.  Should find out what the hell the bumps are.  And then fair, repair, and lay on the 6oz.  
BUT befor you start grinding a bump:
If you look down into the bilge and you are seeing the signature Pearson layup and you are sure there is a bump on the ouitside - this is not possible.
I would use a batten to REALLY MAKE SURE that any bumps are really bumps and not an area that  has hollows around an island that is not actually standing out.  Hollows are more likely than bumps in a nonrestored hull.



[The 6oz cloth is not going to add thickness or much strength.  Most will agree it is the best way to add a thick supported layer of epoxy barrier.  The cloth is light and easy to apply.  Another layer or two could be considered if you truly have a thin factory lamination in the area.  Put the smaller piece on first, the a larger, then the largest over all.  Seems backwards but I think fairing will be easier and there are fewer seams.]


The best test for hull soundness is thumping it.  If there is a dull thud you have no other choice but grinding down to green fiberglass.  You have to grind all white fibers away.

Build back up thin layers so that removal is easy.  If you have to.
A couple bendy wood fairing battens for horizontal and vertical testing are good.  You can pick out hollows and bumps real easy with these.

A piece of thin, sharp, stiff gauge metal  is good for dragging over just applied fairing compound.  Slather the compound on, then drag the steel over the surface, bending the metal to conform to the general curve of the hull.
Imco

Because as I taped this 5 foot long metal rule to the hull it looks like the high points should be the fair line of the hull and the low spots make the high points look like humps.
 
I can tell you with certainty that there is only one spot with a repair to the fiberglass and you can see that spot in the first picture. I am intimate with the inside and outside of the hull in this area after all the time I have spent working on it and the laminate is original and solid. I am the first person to see the inside of the keel since it left the factory full of foam and glassed over.
 
The starboard side is fine. It has fair lines and looks like it should.

Regression/shrinkage where there was no filler betwixt hull and ballast, perhaps? Any flexxing thereabouts?

If not, I'd fill it and fair it.

Onefourseven, suh,
that hull there in the closeups looks choice to me.  Looks very healthy.  That's the original real stuff.

Gouges or low spots could be caused by an overactive former owner.  Or as you show a repair nearby, it may well have been some sort of damage that was grinded out but not repaired from that point properly.

If those low spots (5/16" is ENORMOUS) are near your thin hull areas then imco this is still damage not repaired completely.  I think it is excellent you grinded the mess off.  Now you know what is there.  And what is not there.  Might help to lay an 8' batten on the good side to get an idea of what might be missing from the damaged side.  Try it back and forth to get an image.  Except for the gouging there can't be too much difference because it takes a lot of work with a sander/grinder to remove stuff.

Common lam schedule into a female mold is the sprayed on gel coat, then hand layering of mat, then multi layers of roving.  You may be able to read these layers in those gouges.  The lamination is supposed to be thickest at the keel gradually getting thinner going to the sheer.  Thickness is built up with roving.  Areas that needed to be smooth enough for painting by Pearson may have had cloth or mat final interior lams.

If those low spots are thin I might lay in some small pieces of fabric and two part into the depressions.  Little ones first then bigger ones like you are closing up an old thru-hull. Fill to the approximate surface with cabosil gel and chopped strand. Then lam on the area pieces of 6oz, if that's what you are doing.  Then do your fairing with easier to sand stuff like West System's407 powder that you mix with the same laminating plastic.
Never learned how to formulate my own powder for non-sag on vertical surfaces.

Tape on a piece of mylar film with blue tape to keep the filler flat if it wants to sag.  Creates 'surface tension'.  Peel it off after set.
[Just occurred to me that this is a trick used with epoxy, don't know if it works with vinylester.]

A longer batten will give you a more complete story of the hull's surface ups and downs.  Longer pieces of aluminum bar are nice because of their soft edges.
Remember, these hulls were conceived as the fairest any human eye had ever seen.  Each side of the hull is identical.
 All of the hull's curves run without impediment into every other curve,  right to the keelpost.:D

Could the weight of all the layers of the laminations during the layup of the hull have caused that side of the keel to pull away or form a "bubble" of sorts before it set up?

IMHO,
I BELIEVE your keel is about as fair as any to come out of Pearson. Nobody at Pearson ever taped a baton to the keel to see how fair it was, I doubt they even checked the plug for the mold.
I BELIEVE the port side will have little likeness to the starboard if you compare the two. The entire cuddy is over 1 1/2" off center on every one of the 1775 Ensigns they built.
I BELIEVE it doesn't make any difference at all. You could fair it out to perfection and not gain an ounce of boat speed. The keel is not like the finely tuned airfoil on a modern fin keeled boat, more of a blob filled with lead.
I BELIEVE you could drop the weakest hull ever to come out of Pearson in the 60's into the drink from 30,000 feet and not suffer any damage. The only force I've ever seen to do any real damage to a 60's era Pearson hull is water inside the boat freezing (and that includes coming off a trailer at highway speeds) so I question the need to reinforce.
I BELIEVE the work you are doing looks very good and the boat already weighs 5500# so a few extra pounds of glass and resin certainly are not going to hurt anything if it helps you sleep at night.
I BELIEVE that like raising a teenager, you need to pick your battles wisely as not to run out of stream (and money)before the job is done.
THIS I BELIEVE
Mike
C227

I ALSO BELIEVE that I would glass up the exposed end of the lead ballast! (It just don't seem right) Maybe add a drain plug.

differing opinions. Without differing opinions we cannot take an honest look at anything and make our own considered decision. So let me say thank-you to you Mike and to Ebb and to anyone else that offers their opinions when I ask a question. Because the more view points that are presented the better the decision I can make.
 
Mike you make some very valid points. And the fact of the matter is I will most likely run out of boat money before I complete the refit. That is why I am concentrating on labor intensive projects where the material costs are low. This economy has my income way, way down and until it picks up some boat money is going to be scarce.
 
My personality drives me to make things as perfect as I am capable of doing. If I ignore something that is obviously wrong to me it drives me nuts every time I look at it from then on. So since I was planning to lay the 6oz glass on the lower part of the keel where the gelcoat was sanded through previously anyway I figured I would address the humps in the keel which was the very first thing I noticed when I first inspected the boat. My post was more about asking the correct approach to fair the keel than if I should do it at all. Trust me I'm nuts enough already and don't need a lumpy keel to look at every time the boat is out of the water to drive me further over the edge. :)
 
As far as glassing in the end of the ballast I had actually cut the biax to do exactly that first and then changed my mind at the last minute. But I may still follow your advice because I believe the foam around the ballast will do more absorbing of water than draining of it. And there is already a plug in the bottom of the keel installed by the previous owner but as he tells it he never got much water out because the foam holds onto the water so well and does not let it drain.
 
Mike I am VERY impressed with the work you have done on the Princess as I am with Ebb's workmanship. I will follow your lead on many of the things you have done most importantly the electric inboard drive. But my personality is a little differant from yours so I am pushed to do some things a little differant. I can't help myself it is who I am.

Let's just mess around with this here for a moment.

Water, for a number of reasons, mainly because it is the basement of the vessel, will get into the encapsulated ballast keel space - even when the end of the ballast is closed off.

That's not good for a number of reasons.  Not only for boats that get pulled and stay on the hard for awhile but also those that stay in the water year round.

Imco you can't close off the ballast keel unless a drain is provided.  As you know some have actually installed a simple bronze drain that can be opened when the boat is out of the water.
There could be a good arguement to put that same drain in the bottom of the bilge where you would close off the ballast.
It's a damned awkward place fpr a mechanical drain thingy.
It's also the bottom of the bilge.

Pearson must have seen water captured in the ballast area as a problem and that's why they inelegantly left it open the way they did.  I'd agree with them that it's best to keep water out of the bilge and as much as possible out of the laminate.

Foam in place urethane is the same.  Water will get in to it.  The boats need a sump as deep as the turn of the fiberglass at the bottom to collect water to be pumped out.  Water always gets in - need a relatively easy way to get it out.
A dusty bilge will help keep the boat smelling sweet.


Some have filled the space around the encapsulated ballast with two part plastic.  Expensive, but it seems to solve that problem.  There are some other reasons besides water being stuck in the cavity that imco filling the space is a good thing.  Main reason is that adding plastic in there structurally benefits the keel.
Some of our Ariels and Commanders seem to be pretty thin of hull.:eek:

The whole weight of the boat sits on it's laminate when on the hard.  And it sits right where the ballast is.  The ballast does NOT form fit the space it sits in.  The only thing that keeps the ballast from shifting is the tabbing across the top!  Imco filling the space around the ballast creates a more solid base where all two and a half tons plus are concentrated when in the jacks.  That's my arguement.


Painting a barrier coat on the bottom is not strictly necessary for our A/C's.
But it could lead ultimately to a drier boat.  If you do go that route then imco the space around the ballast should be filled.
IMCO
..........................................................................................................................................................................................................
WAY LATER EDIT:  I'm sure it has occured to some owners, but there is an important safety issue on whether the lead ballast needs to be
filled/injected with 2-part plastic...or not.  If you accidentally get a leak by grinding a hole or cracking the hull in the area of 'encapsulated' ballast that is open to the sump where your pumps are....you have no way of stopping that water from coming in.
 
A338 also had a large 'hollow' in the turn of the bottom the keel, I mean under the boat where the ballast is, that had been filled with a bondo like substance.  It was fairly easy to dig it out - it was not covered over with fiberglass.  It was a Pearson created booboo.
Fixed it with epoxy & biaxial matt.  
However a flaw is a flaw is a weak area.  When on the hard the whole weight of the boat is balanced on this turn of the bilge.  This probably led my thinking to epoxy/lead composite...and subsequently over-building the bilge....

C147 showed the same Pearson anomaly.  I'm absolutely sure these were considered cosmetic repairs at the factory.  They filled in these caves and delivered them to the dealer painted over.  It's pretty obvious that the poor souls laminating the hull with live polyester had some concentration lapses pushing wet roving into deep reaches of the bilge.  How many other hulls have these flaws?

If you are not filling in the encapsulation void with liquid plastic, then make damn sure the ballast chamber is completely isolated from the interior of the boat.

Commander 147 (http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/member.php?u=9705),

  Looks pretty spiffy, even if maybe not required.  I like the idea of an onboard bomb shelter... especially when it only costs a couple bucks and a few pounds.  :D

  FWIW, I personally do not think there is much of a need for this but to each their own... so long as we all adhear to the adage 'at least do no harm' :D

  Thanks for taking the pictures and sharing your work.  ;)

The economy is taking it's toll on me but I'm still able to squeeze out some money here and there for the boat. Until recently the weather outside was so hot and humid that I spent time working in the wood shop which I could cool until the weather finally cooled down outside.
 
All the wood topsides will be new in this stage of the restoration. And I have most of the pieces fabricated to the point where final fitting, sanding and finishing remains. The new coaming boards are cut and fit but I want to inlay a reinforcement where they tend to crack at the inside corners where the board goes from the deck down into the cockpit itself. They are currently buried in my woodshed and I have not yet taken a picture of them so I will post that later when I install them.
 
The two pieces that transition from the coaming board to the cabin sides are made with the exception of the top cut. I want to fit them with the coaming board to make sure I am cutting them off on top exactly where they need to be cut. You can see the current stage of the parts in photo #1 below
 
Picture #2 below is the new companionway sill.
 
Picture #3 below is the are the boards that the companionway drop boards lock into.
 
Picture #4 below is the new handrails I've made which are thicker and slightly taller than the old ones.
 
And since I can only post 5 pictures per post I will start another post to show you what I have been doing on the boat since the weather cooled down. But I will need to post that later since I have Christmas decorating to do today.

First some time ago I decided to glass in the end of the ballast like Mike (Commander 227) suggested. My reasoning went like this. Unlike a boat that has no foam around the lead ballast that can drain easily to the empty back end of the keel, Destiny has foam all around the ballast and this foam sucks up water and dosen't let go of it. So I thought it better to try and keep water out of that foam by sealing the ballast in fiberglass. If water does get in that area what ever will drain out can go out the plug the prior owner had installed in the bottom of the keel when I pull the boat at the end of season. The first picture is of that job.
 
Next like most commanders the reinforcement for the backstay chainplate was very short. It left the top 8 inches of the chainplate unsupported. So I cut out and glassed in a new reinforcement for it to bolt to. The new one allows me to cut in half the unsupported distance of the chainplate. Also It is twice as thick as the old one. The second picture shows the old reinforcement.
 
The third picture is of the new reinforcement.
 
The 4th picture is of the glassed in new reinforcement showing the added bolt 4" higher than was previously possible. It also shows a couple of backer plates I glassed in for the hinges on the lazarette hatch. I glassed in several backer plates in this area but since I'm out of pictures again I will show you all those at a later date.

for those that wish to use a pivoting mast base. I just drew a cleaner version of the one Rico used to have his step made from. I left out the groove that is needed for the old style mast base where a crain is needed to step the mast.

The first picture below is the surprise I found when I removed the stem head fitting. This boat had more leaks than a colander.
 
The second picture is a trapazoid I made out of 3/8" thick fiberglass panel that I glued in place with some epoxy last night. Tonight I cut some biaxial mat and glassed it in place (3rd. picture). The biax will not only hold the plug in place but it also locks the deck and the hull together better than it has ever been in that area. Tomorrow night I will cover the existing hole in the front of the bow with some mylar and tape and then drill a hole in the top of the deck where the stem head fitting will later cover it up. Then I will mix up some epoxy with micro fibers to strengthen it and pour it into the the area closed off by the plug I installed.

Nice!

Will you be able to line up the long bolt?
A338 has one long bolt that essentially makes the stemfitting impossible to be torn off (without taking the whole nose with it. )
Could say the stemfitting does a secondary job clamping stem to deck together.  
Also has the two lower bolts that only go thru the stem.  
Our stem fitting is a great design!

The plug/bulkhead you have there imco could be tabbed to the hull to insure the upgrade does as you say: hold everything together better.

Bet you had a great time working up in there!!!!!


Really enjoy your photos and work!:D

and you will get a feel for what it was like working up there in the point of the bow. I can't wait to start on the recore. I will actually for the first time be able to stand in an upright position to do the job at hand. :)
 
Ebb the first pictures may not have been easy to see but I did glass the trapazoid to the deck and the hull. The first picture below is the templates I used to cut the biax that I used. The Y shaped one went in first and the top dark brown part is on the bottom of the deck, the middle light brown part is attached to the trapazoid plug and the bottom darker brown part is attached to the hull where the bolts for the stem head go through. The smaller template was for the second piece of biax that tied the plug to the sides of the hull.
 
The second picture below shows the long bolt in place so you can get an idea of how it all fits together.

Both of the tillers that came my commander were replacements and neither one worked very well. One was only about 4" longer than the original but instead of a slight rise it had a drop in it and it was a knee knocker. The other while it had a similar rise to the origianl it was about 12" too long. It took up a lot of cockpit space to use it. So tonight I cut up one of the old combing boards and resawed it into strips 5/16" thick. I built a jig to match the profile in the manual and glued the first one up. I figure it can't hurt to have a spare so I'm going to make two while I'm doing it.
 
If anyone wants the jig when I'm done with it and is willing to pay the UPS to get it let me know and it's yours.

Just blissfully blundering along like I have never built anything before confident what I'm doing is going to turn out just right.......NOT.....
 
I know better than to build a jig and do a glue up before testing my template to verify it's really what I want. But did I do that?????? NO
 
So tonight after work I removed the glue up from the jig (first picture below) and was getting ready to surface the two faces so I could lay the template on it and mark the layout for the bandsaw, I all of a sudden realize I never bolted the template into the rudder head to make sure I was going to be happy with the final result. When I did my heart sunk..... I was sure after looking at the two tillers that came with my commander and looking at the layout of the original in the manual that I would be happy with the original. And that is why I blissfully proceeded without doing what I would normally do and test every step along the way to make sure I liked the direction I was going. But when I bolted it in I realized it was not going to end up at a comfortable height for me and I was going to have to go back to square one. :(
 
The second picture below is the two tiller templates bolted into the tiller head. The higher one is the one based on the manual and the lower one is the one I'm going to start making now.

A master woodworker, famous for his furniture, once said to me:

It's all  how you go from one mistake to your next mistake.

I needed that....

Don't forget to account for some flatting out of the tiller's curves when you take it out of the form.  

All the work you've done on your boat is first class.

Ben

From what you have shown us so far I expect the same from you. With these 45 year old boats we get plenty of opportunity to prove ourselves don't we?
 
BTW when I released the tiller glue up I only got about 1/8" spring back which surprised me. I expected more.

Well, after playing with several incarnations of the tiller template this is the one I finally settled on. I am 5'11" tall and when I sit on the cockpit seat with a cushion the top of my knee is at 23" above the cockpit floor. I wanted the tiller to clear the top of my knee by a comfortable margin so the bottom of this template is 24-1/2" above the cockpit floor. The original one I made is behind the one I will now need to build. Because I am making a tighter curve I will need to make the strips I glue up thinner to take the curve. So that means I will need to make one or two more strips. That's a project for tomorrow.

We have had the coldest winters I have experienced in Florida and I have lived here since 1977. But we finally got a 70 degree day so I could use the resorcinal to glue up my tiller for Destiny. I glued it up yesterday and today I shaped it and did the initial sanding. It is made out of alternating pieces of mahogany and white ash. I had very little spring back when I unclamped it which you can see from the template laying on it before I shaped it.
 
The tiller is 3-1/2" above my knee and it easily goes over the top of my leg when I'm sitting in the cockpit. The end that I hold is close to horizontal which makes it an easy resting point for the hand doing the steering.
 
For anyone who is interested I made a layout so it could be duplicated.

Beautiful!  I was wondering what was going on with your tiller.  I like the ergonomic thinking that you have put into your design.  

I also like seeing your cool workbench.  

Ben

I built the workbench back in march of 2004. Someday it will belong to my oldest grandson. My youngest grandson loves tools so I will build a top and bottom tool box that will someday be his.;)

Thank you for the drawing! The tiller on mine bears a very strong resemblance to to a $5 home depot wheel barrow handle.....

  Been sitting in the cockpit reaching for an imaginary tiller to try and come up with a design to build (On warm days anyway!)


Very nice bench. The levers lower the wheels through a cammed end? and when fully down, what locks them? a simple over-center design?

Ken.

The wheels are lowered with a simple cam and there is no need for a lock because in the down position the cam is past center and it stays down on it's own.
 
I attached a PDF which should make the drawing easier to read if you print it out.

Have you had time to check your PMs yet? Carl

I tend to forget all about checking for private messages. But I have replied back to you now.

Nice work, and thanks for the layout drawing. I may be doing much the same myself soon, but there is one thing I wonder about. Why do the laminated build up? It seems perhaps they were original to the boats, but I always thought laminated tillers were a bit inferior in appearance to solid shaped. It looks like the pattern could be got out of 5-1/2" stock with just a band saw and then shaped up. I have seen a few herreshoff tillers that were really lovely. Plenty strong enough in the right wood, I imagine.
 
Just a question, not a critique, it looks really lovely.
 
-Frank

Perhaps laminated tillers are inferior in appearance. This is why I plan to make a second tiller out of all mahogany which will look more like one made from solid stock.
 
But the laminated tiller is significantly stronger than one made from solid stock. The grain pattern of the individual strips follows the shape of the tiller which by itself adds strength. Think of wood like a bundle of plastic straws. If the straws are running close to perpendicular to the length of the tiller it is easier to break the tiller in between the straws separating the bundle. But if all of the straws are running the entire length of the tiller it is much more difficult to break it because now you have to actually break the bundle of straws in half and not just separate them from the other straws. Does that make sense or have I had too many beers tonight???
 
The reason I used the white ash in this tiller is because white ash resists bending and twisting much better than mahogany. So by mixing the two I get the strength of the white ash and the appearance of the mahogany all in one.
 
But as I said earlier I plan to make another spare tiller (which might become the primary tiller) out of all mahogany. And while I believe it will be strong enough to handle the forces applied to it I learned long ago that I am not able to over come the urge to over build everything I make. I know that if I build it stronger than it needs to be then I don't have to worry about it anymore.

Jerry's 2"X2" diagram of the tiller layout in post #64 also works to show what would happen if you laid out the tiller on a nice plank of mahogany - or any wood.
It's easy to see the short grain in the tapering of the tiller to its end.  Just follow the horizontal grid lines through the slender handle. That's short grain.
Easy to imagine it cracking there the first time you leaned on the tiller by mistake.
And there is too much runout in the grain where it approaches the tiller head.
Same result, and compounded by the side loads a tiller takes in use.
It would be dangerous at the end of the tiller where you have 3 closely grouped bolts  holding the tiller onto the bronze tiller head - if there was any slanted grain there.

You could have a solid NON laminated tiller if you took your pattern out to where a locust tree had fallen - and tried the pattern on various limbs, then
cut your tiller out of that single curved piece of wood.  They used to carve out floors and knees for wooden ships by chopping out  curved pieces  of tree crooks, crotches, limbs coming out of trunks,  roots, and such.  Curved limbs for frames.
Seem to remember the term "grown knees".
So if you found the perfect limb and carved out the tiller - you'd have a grown tiller, by gum.
And if you had the right wood (Honey Locust would be good)  it would definitely be stronger than a laminated job which is only as strong as its glue.

I think the shape is perfect. I like how the handle end droops down so it becomes level when installed.

You probably wont find a stock tiller shaped like that. Usually the handle end  points up. Not terrible, but it could be better. The drawing is helpful, and H & L could build one based on that for the non-carpenters here

The worst is a tiller that is too low. Not only do you bang your knee, you end up having to lean over while steering. Becomes uncomfortable

Nice job

I'm not sure who H & L is but I'm guessing they could build it cheeper than I could because they probably have a lower cost of materials and labor.
 
Not counting the time it took me to build the jig or make the template I'm guessing it takes me about 6 to 8 hours of labor to make one of these. By the time I set up the bandsaw and resaw all the strips and surface them in the planer, then glue everything up and shape it afterwards and sand it I would not be surprised to have that much time in it.

Jerry, I believe H&L build replacement tillers for just about any boat,  and have in stock or patterns for any one design.

I sent them a pattern of my own, and of course more radical than any they show on their web site.  
Thought they would find a close match to a set up they already had.  But I got back was a beautiful and exact laminated tiller of the pattern I sent, rounded and sanded for about 70 bucks.

There are no glue lines in what they do, so I suppose they use 'plastic resin' glue
the mix with water powered stuff.  Traditional for glue up spruce spars, imco.  It's water resistant.  But you hardly ever see one of their varnished tillers delaminating.  Except down at the tillerhead where the bolts are and people forget to juice the holes through the wood.

I just did a search and found several people selling their tillers and they were advertised between $60.00 and $100.00 based on the exact tiller you wanted. A very reasonable price based on what I know I have invested in mine.

Quote from: Commander 147;20982I'm not sure who H & L is but I'm guessing they could build it cheeper than I could because they probably have a lower cost of materials and labor.

Jerry

Most likely H & L isn't making any money building tillers.   At such a low price they are attracting customers with a classic "loss leader" item.  I'm sure it's also a way to get rid of leftover scrap materials and keep employees busy.  Something more complicated than a tiller from them will no doubt have "market" pricing.  

I make cutting boards out of my leftover scraps mostly as gifts for friends and customers.          

Ben

And the pictures below show why you don't use polyester resins to tab in a bulkhead. The first picture is what somebody did for the previous owner when he replaced the bulkheads. It was coming loose and when I pryed on it a little it just popped loose which you can see in the second picture. I had to cut it loose from the bulk head so I can redo the tabbing.
 
My current project is repairing and reinforcing the bottom side of the deck where I will later be recoreing from the top. After patching all of the holes I will be putting a layer of 1708 biax and a layer of 6oz finishing cloth on the bottom of the deck to give it more strength before I cut into the top. And once I had talked myself into going to all that work I decided I would fill the toe rail so I could tie the hull and deck together and make a better looking job of the reinforcing. The third picture is a drawing of what I'm doing at the toe rail.

Hey jerry,
To stick heavy mat to the overhead you're going to have to figure out a way to hold it up there until it sets.  I don't know what.
But it occurs to me if you have to go to the trouble of supporting the cloth with thick cardboard and a miriad of battens to hold it all up there....

why not skip the catortionist wet matt stuff and just support the deck with just enough pressure on the underdeck from spring battens to support recoring the deck from the top.

The argument would be that you are probably going with closed cell pvc foam and epoxy and glass.  The  green foam I've used has to be considered structural.  Marvelous stuff.  
You will end up with a very strong composite.  Stronger because epoxy sticks better to the foam than it does to end grain balsa.

On the Ariel the foredeck has a plank of plywood down the center from the stem to the cabin.  No balsa there.  And probably no rot because I found the stip had been isolated from the balsa.  Effectively separating the balsa into separate islands.  If you are replacing that you could do first one side then the other.  You could do the same along the side decks.  You'd just make sure you married the sections together real good where they meet.

Glass matt, while very strong,  soaks up an extraordinary amount of epoxy.  I haven't done it but imco the stuff will be too heavy to stick to the roof, it'll want to pull away,  so it will have to be supported everywhere.  However, I think you could get away with pasting 6oz glass cloth overhead.  Cloth would allow easier filling and fairing too.


TOE RAIL
Filling the inside of the toerail will take a huge amount of expensive epoxy.  I know - I filled A338's toerail stem to stem.  What's that, 52 feet of 1 1/2"X 1 1/2"X 1 1/2" of fill?  Plus waste, squeeze out, and pot life fiascos!
I  'cheated' by jamming one foot long pieces of wood up in there with lots of epoxy gel reinforced  with chopped strand.  The wood was milled to make a flat bottom inside easy to fair with the deck.  In some places you'd never know the hollow toerail was ever there.  
Using wood chunks cut roughly to fit could be jammed in the cove and the squeeze-out cleaned up easy because the pieces didn't need to be braced or fastened.
Now there is more wood than plastic inside all along the cove which makes it very friendly to screws and thru-fastenings anytime later.

Just ideas.:D

One of the best parts of having this forum is that it offers us the chance to bounce ideas off each other. Many times other people will bring up points you have not considered. That seems to be the situation here.
 
When I use 1708 biax my procedure has been to wet out the area I want to apply the mat to then wet out the mat on both sides working the epoxy into the mat on a flat surface. Then I pick up the saturated mat and apply it to the surface I'm woking on rolling out any bubbles.
 
Now here comes the part (being honest) that I had not considered. I have not had any problem with the mat sticking to a verticle surface when I applied it. So I had not considered that it would not stick to the bottom side of the deck. And your point seems to be a valid concern.
 
Being a bit hard headed once I have committed towards a course of action and since you say you have never actually tried it yourself, I think I'm going to try a section in the bow in the chain locker area. If I have to grind it back out in there and do something else it does not matter as much if it is not as attractive of a finish.
 
The side of the hull and to a much lesser extent the bottom of the deck both have a lot of bumps and hollows in the glass work. I had already assumed I would fair those areas out with thicked epoxy before I apply the mat. I wanted a nice smooth surface to make it easier for the mat to stick to it without bubbles and hollow spots.
 
BTW Ebb, you will be happy to hear that I am no longer using West System epoxy. I found Raka non-blushing epoxy which seems like it wets out better also. Certainly a lot cheaper and it has a good reputation on the plastic classic forum. The other thing that has been mentioned about this epoxy is that is seems to cause less reactions for people like me who are sensitive to it.
 
As far as the toe rail goes... my thought pattern went something like this. It is my hope that someday one of my grandchildren will take up sailing and then ownership and care of Destiny. As a matter of fact that is one of the things that drew me to the commander. I wanted a large enough cockpit so I could take my family sailing and we would all be able to sit in the cockpit comfortably. So I wanted something that would never be a problem down the road. And since the rubrail is screwed into this area it was conceivable to me that over time water could get in there and cause the wood to rot if I put wood up in there. Granted it would take a very long time and likely not occur in my lifetime but possibly in my granchildren's. So I wanted somthing water would not affect. I talked to the folks at Fiberglass Coatings in St. Pete and we came up with a polyester putty that they developed called FC8 that is thickened with microfibers and silica that would fill the toe rail area. I'm not asking it to do anything structural I'm only asking it to fill a void that will be enclosed with epoxy wet out fiberglass. For $90.00 I got a 5 gal bucket of the stuff that should be enough to do the toe rail. Then not being one to just take some salesman's word for anything I mixed up a pint of the putty and put it on a piece of plastic that would allow me to get it off in one piece. I wanted to see how strong the stuff was. The putty was about 1/2" thick and when I tried to break it I could not do it until I supported the two ends and took a hammer to it. Then when it did break it broke cleanly into 3 pieces and did not just shatter. Take a look at the pictures below.
 
Here is a link to the website.
 
http://www.fgci.com/

Jerry,  The whole thing for me too has always been feedback.
We are engaged in Discussions here
 - sometimes not much
sometimes too much
- but always with the thought that anybody can join in
- or read and move on.
The most marvelous thing about the internet still is that it is about information,.
every kind, not just product info.

I've been taken by product hype so many times that I, if I remember to, feel that research, product and other peoples experiences are necessary before I dive in.  
This is about that.

Be interesting to hear about your experience with RAKA epoxy.

I also hope you record for us how the rail cove filling goes.  Using inexpensive polyester filler seems OK [VENT THE FUMES, they are toxic],  but we have to assume you aren't expecting a bond and that you probably will seal the upgrade with, I don't know,  light fiberglass fabric and epoxy.
Given the age of our boats a reinforcement of the deck-to-hull seam seems like a good idea also.  The seam is just about where the end of the fill will be if it is faired with the bottom of the deck.

Really enjoy the exchange and your photo journal.
Without question the ability to share photos, insights and experiences with others makes this classic plastic website

THE BEST on the planet!:cool::cool::cool:

Temperature got up to 61 degrees today which was just enough to start putting some of the putty into the toe rail. I'm posting now because I'm waiting for the 3rd layer to cure enough that I can put in another layer yet today.
 
This putty has the consistancy of drywall mud. I used to buy old houses and fix them up so I got pretty good with drywall finishing. It helped with this job.
 
The first picture below shows how I marked a referance line on the hull for how far down I wanted to go with the putty. This line is about 1/8" below the deck which insures I'm below the butt joint of the hull and deck.
 
The second picture below are the tools I've been using today. A round nose trowel, a 3" drywall knife, a 6" drywall knife, a pint mixing cup, a CC cup to measure the MEKP hardener and a plastice mixing board and last but not least a couple of box fans with one blowing fresh air into the cabin and a second one sucking air out from the forward hatch.
 
The key to working with this stuff is not trying to put too much in at once. As I type this I have 3 layers of putty in the toe rail and I expect it will take 5 or 6 to get it completely filled. And then I may need to do a skim coat to level out a few areas after that.
 
For the most part I used the 6" drywall knife to put the putty into the toe rail. I used the 3" drywall knife to scrape the 6" knife clean so I did not have putty on the knife anywhere but where I wanted it. The trowel was only useful for stuffing some putty into some inside corners where I could not get with the 6" knife. I also used the 3" knife for mixing the material on the mixing board. I would put the putty on the board and dig a little hole in the center. Then I poured the MEKP into the hole in the center and mixed it until it was a consistant color through out.
 
The last picture below shows how much putty I would put on the knife before I pushed it up into the toe rail. For most of the filling operation I used the drywall knife perpendicular to the toe rail and would just push what was on the end of the knife into the toe rail and then move over 6" more and do the same thing again. Once I get it full enough I will use the 3" knife and run parallel to the length of the toe rail to get a nice even layer. Then finally I will do a skim coat just filling in low spots.
 
The next post will show a progression of photo's showing layers of putty going in.

First one is one layer. Second picture is 5 layers and 3rd. picture is 3 layers (sorry I got the photos switched around a bit) which means I will need at least one more layer to get to the point I want to.

Great work Jerry! (this, and your beautiful woodwork as well!)

I am about to start this 'rail fill' project myself... I decided to do away with the rub-rail, but filling the rail is necessary in order to install the long Genoa track on the rail...

I was considering using polyester resin along with a thickening agent... but this putty product seems quite interesting.
I am looking forward to hearing how happy you are with this product.

C-147 is fast becoming a VERY happy ship. Surely it will last for generations (They already have a great start!)

I plan to use an 8 or 9 foot long Genoa track myself on the toe rail and that was another of the considerations for doing this project. And while we are talking headsail tracks, how long is the jib track you installed? I plan to do one like that and any feedback on how long yours was and how it is working for you would be helpful.
 
As far as this putty goes, it gets very hard. It should work exactly as I wanted it to in the genoa track area giving a solid surface to bolt through. It is pretty much exactly what you were thinking of using a polyester resin with a thickening agent (microballons and fumed silica) that is already premixed. All you have to do is add the MEKP to activate it and go.
 
I should warn you that the fumes are pretty bad. Even with a fan blowing in from the companionway and another blowing out from the forward hatch while I worked in the v-birth area and me wearing a mask that is designed for paint fumes I still ended up with a headache that I blame on the fumes at the end of a 5 hour day of using this stuff. The shelter Destiny is under is wide open on one end and 6 foot by 6 foot canopied opening on the other. But it still probably helped to hold fumes around the boat more than if it was in the wide open air.

away for a short time from the toe rail project and towards finishing up the all mahogany tiller. Yesterday we had another 70 plus degree day so I cut out of work a little early so I could take advantage of the warm air to glue up my all mahogany tiller. Then today the temperature after work was below 60 degrees so I did not want to chance the putty not setting up so instead I finished making the tiller.
 
All went well until I was using a router bit to put a radius in the edges of the tiller and I had a blow out. See the first picture below.
 
But if you were to hold the tiller in your hands and look at it you would never know it was there unless I showed you what to look for. The second tiller shows the salvaged tiller and the original one I made.

Jerry,
Making a second tiller is one thing I have thought of doing, and may still, because I like your idea of an all mahogany tiller.

I would make the bending/clamping form flat on a table.  
I would use thinner laminations, as thin as 5/32"
I'd glue a number of veneers together - 9 - 12
- maybe not all at the same time
- maybe two or three separate glue ups to keep the bent wood stress small.
- take the tiller out of clamps when set - trim to its final length
- and work the desired taper into it.  Not sure I would taper just the bottom, but that would be simplest.
Because the bottom laminations  are theoretically in compression and not likely to splinter.

Then I would put it back in the form and glue a final strip or two on the bottom and on the top if necessary that would become  the finished dimensions.
That way there would be no runout of tapered veneers.  Which the H&L tillers all have, and aesthetically imco is this method's glaring feathering of glue line and veneer on the bottom of the lamination.  
Being one beautiful color the tiller could look like a single piece.
  And the grain would run full without runout on both top and bottom.

Thinner lams  theoretically produce less stress in the bent composite.
Two or three wet and set glue-ups.  would produce a tame tiller especially in the outside lamination that has most of the tension.
 Less likely to let go and pop a splinter when finishing.
Miore glue lines, if it's the right glue, could arguably make a stronger tiller.
Haven't seen anybody do a tiller this way.  With mahogany I'd probably use resorcinol.

If I ever get to it, I'll give that a try.
We should always carry a spare.  
That would be the nifty two-tone H&L I have now.

Not sure it would work with my design unless I eliminated the knob on the bottom side of the tiller. I need all of the laminations to get the height for the knob. And that is also why almost my entire taper is on the bottom. This leaves the top piece almost intact and continuous.
 
As I was typing that it occurred to me I could just glue a couple of pieces to the end of the bottom afterwards to make my knob.
 
 
I do have one bottom strip that dies out completely and a second one that comes close which leaves the very obvious glue line from the resorcinol on the bottom which you can see in the picture below.
 
 
I also agree with the thinner strips thought. I honestly think I could have made mine thinner than I did which was 1/4". But when I did my test clamp up everything seemed to work OK so I went with it. But thinner strips would have created less stress just more glue lines.

I can imagine that your boat shelter might trap some fumes, but I cannot thing of any other disadvantage. You have a great 'workshop'!

My Jib track is 4' long. You do not need the full 4', but I wanted to avoid using the ends. I highly recommend the set-up. It has worked beautifully with my sail. Pointing ability increased dramatically with the ability to trim properly.

I spoke with the putty folks - and as it turns out, they have no suppliers out west. It is hazardous material, so shipping was almost as much as the product... So I may en-up mixing my own putty after all...

Doesn't Bondo make a LITE version of their stuff?
[Yes, DYNALITE, $10 qt.]
Auto paint suppliers might have it.  Paintstores that carry automotive spray paint will have it or another brand.  It's all the same stuff really.

Since it sets up hard I would use a plastic spreader (the green ones are the best) to fill the cove.  A bendy plastic spreader will produce a flatter fill with a slight hollow.  That is, after you stuff the cove you run the spreader at 90 degrees to the hull in the corner,  scraping the excess away.  After it sets up you can easily smooth the area with a sanding block, and do  very minor fairing fill to get it perfect, if necessary.

For what it's worth I would recommend tabbing the corner with epoxy and glass.
Assures the structural join of deck to hull and will stop water from coming through the seam.
Don't know what the shrinkage is, but in a thick form as in the cove I would guess there will be some.
Before covering there has t be a complete cure.  MSDS or datasheet.  This allows the solvents to subside.  That will ease bonding of the next system going over the polyester.

But I still have been finding some time for the boat. As the old saying goes where there is a will there is a way.
 
Ebb I am happy to report that the 1708 biax stuck very well to the bottom side of the deck. I layed 11" wide area on the bottom of the deck and 4" wide on the side of the hull. I cut the pieces into a small manageable size that was only 9" wide. Then I wet out the deck and hull where I was getting ready to put the biax, and then the mat side of the biax. I would stick the biax up with my referance line right on top of the fillet where the deck and hull come together. Then add resin to the exposed woven side of the biax and imediately follow with a layer of 6oz. cloth to minimize the amount of fairing I have to do later.
 
The first picture is what it looked like after I had the glass in place. It actually went very well.
 
The next picture is some future planning work I'm doing. Initially I plan to have my halyards terminated at the mast and I will mount a couple of winch pads on the mast for the halyard winches. But as I get older I may decide I want to run them back to the cockpit. So the second picture is of areas that I am making solid glass pads for rope clutches and winch bases.
 
And since I need to recore the bow area and because I wanted to make a more substantial mounting point for my bow cleat I glassed in the top of the bulhead leading to the chain locker.

The piece of wood that was under "Destiny's" mast when I got her was in pretty sad shape and needed replacing. I contemplated a lot of options and the one I contemplated the most other than the decision I finally made was the route Rico took. But in the end since I'm doing a major refit anyway I decided to make a permanent solid fiberglass mast step that has become a part of the deck.
 
I started out by making a wood plug the size and shape of the step I wanted to end up with.
 
 
 
Then I had to build a piece that recreated the curvature of the deck that I could set on my workbench so I could attach the plug to it and build a framework around it that would hold the casting resin I was using to make a mold for the fiberglass step.
 
 
 
After that I poured in the casting resin, let it set up and I had a female mold that would allow me to make a solid fiberglass mast step. Then I popped out the wood plug and started cutting pieces of fiberglass that would allow me to fill the mold with solid glass. I must have cut between 30 and 40 pieces to get enough to fill the mold. I painted the mold with release wax and started laying up my mast step. After all the glass was wet out I covered the assembly with visquene and then clamped the piece that matched the curvature of the deck to the top of it. After the epoxy cured I dissasembled everything and took out the fiberglass mast step. I used a special solvent that removed any traces of the release wax and then sanded everything smooth.
 
While I was waiting for the epoxy to cure on the mast step I recored the deck where the new mast step would go with solid glass. And as long as I was at it I made the areas where the forward hatch hinges go through the deck solid glass also.
 
 
 
Then when all the parts were ready I mixed up some thickened epoxy and spread an even layer on the bottom of the new step and pushed it down on the deck. I used the squeeze out to make a fillet around the step. Once that had set up I glassed the entire thing down to the deck. This picture shows it at that stage. The only thing still needing to be done is to sand it then fair it out with some epoxy thickened with cabosil and mircoballons.
 

The little piece of wood trim that came on "Destiny's main companionway hatch did not allow for an easy way to grasp the hatch and slide it back and forth. So I decided to make somethiing for it that was more accomodating to my fat fingers.
 
This was not a real easy task as I found out when trying to make the new hand hold. The curvature of the hatch is not a smooth radius so I found I had to first cut and shape the bottom of the new piece to match the shape of the hatch. Then 2-1/4" above that point I had to draw and cut a true radius that would allow me to use the top as an indexing point for the 4 router bits it would take me to make the profile I wanted to make.
 
This first picture is the profile of the new hand hold.
 

 
This second picture is the view showing how it looks on the hatch.
 

Nice work Jerry, I'm impressed!

Thanks Ben
 
You do nice work also. I appreciate the complement.

Quote from: Ariel 109;21675Nice work Jerry, I'm impressed!

I'll second that without hesitation.  

I never thought about Commanders having core where the hatch hinges attach.  I guess you could accuse me of being 'hullcentric'.

Thanks Tony
 
Lord knows I've seen some nice work from your posts also. Hope your cabin comes out the way you want it to this time. Your new chain locker bulkhead is looking good too. Certainly an improvement from the original version. Fiberglass boats have come a long way since ours were built. Some of it good and some not so good.

Today I received the electric inboard drive for Destiny. It is really nice to finally see this thing in person and get a feel for what is in front of me for the install. It is also nice to see the apparent high quality of the parts and pieces that came. For me (I am NOT an electrical engineer) it was really good that I could find a vendor that supplies a complete package that is all designed to work together. I know Mike saved money by doing his piecemeal on C227 but I was willing to pay the extra for a complete packagee.
 
Here is the link to Electric Yacht's website.
 
http://www.electricyacht.com/

Pretty snazzy Jerry!

I bet you're excited to lay down in the bilge and cut, grind and glue in the Florida heat. I'm sure you'd like to put it off til it cools down but you got new gizmos that are crying to be played with. It was winter when I did mine and I'm too cheap to heat much. I had a sweatshirt on under my tyvek suit. Make sure you have someone come out and poke you with a stick every now and again to be sure you're still moving.
Mike
C227

Mike
 
In this heat and at my age I can only tolerate the Tyvek for so long. And unfortunately thanks to my allergy to epoxy I have to wear it. I've been going to work on it at 5:00AM when it is ONLY 85 to 87 degrees on the weekends and working until approx 10:00AM when the temp hits the mid 90's. By that time I'm drenched in sweat and can no longer tolerate it. So I come in take a shower and open the door between the house and the wood shop in the garage and start working on some of the wood items. It kills me that I'm moving so slow on this but the heat is just more than I can deal with so I have to bide my time.
 
But you are absolutely correct that they are crying to be played with. Before I can start on it I have to reinforce my neighbors pole building so I can use it to lift the boat off the trailer and both fix the keel and remove the rudder so I can start the shaft log install. But I'm certainly motivated to do that now. :-)

I know the feeling , congratulations , I picked up commander#5 on july 31st and have been sailing her everysaturday sinc and got some really great wind gusts up to40-50mph when hurricane earl skirted the coast on the chesapeake bay

Well, I lost about a month of progress thanks to a sinus surgery I finally had done that I had been putting off for close to 10 years. I can breath better now and in another month or so when I'm finally healed up completely I will be happy it was done.
 
In the last couple of weeks I have made progress in a couple of areas. First I did all of the final fitting to the wood for the companionway (picture 1 below) only to take it all back out for finishing. When I get to the end of the project and start putting all the wood back in I want things to progress quickly because I will be really excited to finally have her done. So getting all of the wood pieces final fit and finished now will really help then.
 
After I finished that I demo'd out the compression post and the little boomerang braces at the top of the cabin so I can start my strong back install. I never plan to do a solid door leading to the v-berth because in my opinion in these small boats it just takes up too much room. I plan to do a curtain on a track so the ladies can have privacy. That being the case I decided (after talking it over with my friend Tom) it would be good to try and keep the cabin as open as possible and still get the support I need for the strong back. So the second picture is a mock up of the direction I'm heading on the new bulkheads (I will be removing the old bulkheads and replacing with new).

Nice work Jerry!  That companionway looks so great.

Ben

Looking really nice Jerry!

Jerry, Excellent,
 spiffy companion way there!

And the new proposal for the compression beam and bulkhead is obviously a vast improvement.
It'll be a perfect upgrade.

Nice work, Jerry!  She is looking F I N E!!  Having the wood prefinished before final install ought to really speed things up in the assembly phase.  And I can't say enough that your expert craftmanship shows in your work.  

What's the plan with your mast beam and main bulkhead?  Solid beam?  Laminated beam?  Laminated beams are easier, in my opinion, but solid may have less integrity concerns when it comes to glue choice, water intrusion, etc..  And how about the bulkhead shape?  Honestly, I kind of like the shape you got in the photo with the pieces, that I assume are braces, meeting the existing Commander style bulkheads.

P.s. 'Glad you have the surgery behind you.  Post procedure recovery really throws me of kilter for a while.

DOH!  I just saw the yellow overlay on your photo.  Looks fantastic!

Tony
 
I would love to get your input on my plans which by the way is an open invitation to everyone else also. The best part of this or any forum is getting insight and ideas from others on what you are trying to accomplish.
 
My plans currently are to vertically laminate white oak for the strong back. I'm using resorcinol glue to eliminate water and glue issues. I've kind of drawn in the new bulkheads in the photo below to better illiustrate the new look with the new bulkheads. Then I drew in some sections so you can more easily understand the plan of what I'm planning to do. Please feel free to offer suggestions.
 
I plan to use 1/2" marine ply for the bulkheads and cover it with 1/4" mahogany ply for looks. For the trim material on the edge of the bulkhead I plan to glue up thin strips of mahogany (as thin as 1/16" if necessary to make the curves) that will end up 3/8" thick and follow the curves of the bulkhead.

Jerry,

My input is start right now.  What you have planned is fantastic.  Clean and functional and why ask for anything more?  Maybe Ebb has some wisdom on the vertical laminated beam he can add but it seems a ok to me.  I never thought of laminating in that orientation...  And resourcinol is the glue to use.  (I wish I had used it so that nagging fear would go away)

I am already envisioning the pictures.  She is going to be saw-weeet.

Looking great Jerry! Your companion way looks first rate. I wish I had the old style. My strong back is of similar dimensions and also white oak. I used West sys. and stainless dowels. Its only  been two years but it hasn't busted yet, knock on wood. I like the look of your bulkhead.... but dude.... chicks dig doors!
Mike
C227

But the three "chicks" that matter most to me are the admiral and my two grown daughters who are all OK with the curtain as long as there is a mechanical means of keeping it closed when in use. And the admiral has a custom window treatment business and already knows how she plans to make it. So I guess I'm lucky this time.
 
I spent some time today making templates for the new bulkheads. So far they are just partial templates, I need to do some demo tomorrow to make the bottom part but tonight I want to start bandsawing the strong back. Here is a picture with the partial templates in place with the template for the strong back. I tried in the second picture to stitch two pictures together to get a more complete view of the whole area but it only "kind" of worked.
 
The layout did not work out quite like I thought it would. I tried to make the upper portion of the bulkhead slant parallel to the cabin side. And I wanted 10" of support under each side of the strong back. What you see is the result of those efforts.

I just was not happy with the look of the bulk heads yesterday so today I took another inch off both sides and I'm much happier with the look of the layout. See for yourself below.
 
My biggest concern is that now I have 2 more inches of unsupported distance between the bulkheads. The total distance unsupported is 35-3/4". I know the beam will be stronger when glassed to the deck tying it all together but I still feel the need to find some way to test the strength of the beam. I would like to see it capable of handling 2500 lbs. Do any of you have any suggestions?

2 cents worth.
Early on in A338 I decided to replace the original sawn beam with a laminated one out of white oak and epoxy.  Not the best choice.
On the last current page in ebb's gallery thread you can read what I later decided to do
because I really don't think that white oak can be glued.....totally, including with resorcinol.

If I was to do it over again and I couldn't find the scantlings in a piece of oak to band saw the single piece out like the original
 I would definitely do the beam with vertical pieces as you suggest.
BUT also mechanically lag the pieces together with BRONZE screws.
Iron is a notorious enemy of oak, so I would not use even 316.

I really can't imagine the arch being bent by the downward pressure of the mast.
If the arch is non-bendable even when supported by partial bulkheads then the arch must be made immovable.
Gluing it to the roof is a good idea. So to the bulkheads with thru fastenings.
You might think about adding gussets on the inside, on the other side of the beam.
This can be done by adding a piece of solid oak as a strut along side the cabin down to the hull.
The struts would completely immobilize the ends of the support beam.
Imco I would not depend on the bulkheads alone to hold the beam in place.
If you do you are only adding support off the side of the beam even if you thru-fastened it to the bulkhead.

Since you are band-sawing the vertical beam pieces out you don't have to have a parallel sided
lamination.  You can increase the thickness of the beam as goes toward the ends.  Yousometimes see bridge structures that do this.
In other words the exposed part of the beam would LOOK like it got skinnier in the center of the span.  But you could keep the scantling you are happy with but increase the height of the beam as it goes toward the bulkhead supports - essentially loosing no head-room.

Could also add  extra width to the beam, an extra vertical lamination.

Ebb
 
I always appreciate your 2 cents worth.
 
I will take your advice and use bronze screws to lag the beam together. I already bought some #12 x 2" screws that I had planned to use for the combings. I can drive them in from both sides and they will overlap a 1/2" in the middle.
 
Did you notice my plan to use a double bulkhead with lumber spacers between in post 288?  In the area under the beam ends I will use white oak spacers between the two sides as posts to transfer the load all the way down to the hull.
 
BTW what were the final width and height dimensions for your strongback?

another half cent.
There have been reports in forums of failures with both resorcinol and epoxy gluing white oak.
Each report does not go into full depth of what happened,  Moisture, clamping pressure, actual kind of white oak, temperature, loads,  weatherability (UV, shrinking, expanding).
Failures could be due to anything - lousy glue or not carefull measuring of Parts A & B.  Resorcinol has a shelf life as well.  There have also been many triumphs and total success.

All woodworkers agree that laminations should include redundant mechanical fastening.
Especially horizontal load bearing laminations.

It is the acid in quercus alba that the epoxy doesn't like.
One worker says he has had success rough sanding faying surfaces JUST PRIOR TO GLUING.
Not allowing the wood oils to come to the surface.  As we might suppose there may be an adverse oxidation on the wood surface that acts as a debond.  This rings true to me - unscientifically.

Your vertical glueup won't pop off veneers when weight is put on it - which is what happened to laminations I've done.
The glue-up pressures in curved veneer lamination can be severe and glue can be squeezed out of the joint.
If you are laminating with epoxy you might consider a layer of cloth in the glue to preserve the glue line.  The horz-lam beam in A338 is done that way. The vertical mode won't require enormous pressure.

You will probably be building up a baulk and cutting it out on a bandsaw.
You be able to see the insides of your glue lines to see how well you did.
You also will be encapsulating the beam in epoxy, which will go a long way to stabiliizing it.

For resorcinol you'll want freshly milled surfaces to start and perfectly sustained temps.  Lots of clamping pressure.


Why not use trenails instead of screws - expensive screws - to marry the glue-up together.
Drill holes through the completed lamination and glue in white oak DOWELS. 5/8" D comes to mind.  Drill the holes thru face to face.
Ebb would skew the holes slightly in various directions so that there would be no way the laminations could come apart.  You'd never be able to drive a sharp chisel into a glue-line to see if it would pop loose.
Wouldn't happen.  Trenails, better than screws.   whatdoyouthink?

Have to turn your own dowels probably.  Or 8 side square stock and hammer through a die plate.  I think the key to using epoxy successfully on white oak is freshly prepared surfaces and 100% solids epoxy.  NO solvents.  No solvent prep of the wood.
Since there are so many variables there is no guarantee that it will be successful.

Bronze screws will look better in those coamings!
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Have to add: I glue many pieces of wood together using laminating epoxy.  
Saturate surfaces, then wipe them 'dry'.   The glue is epoxy mixed with fumed silica.  Use the wet out brush to apply the fairly stiff gel.  You can get pretty even coverage by smooching it around.
You cover both faying surfaces.  When you press them together it is impossible to squeeze out all the gel glue.  
You have a glue line and successful bond.  In other words you can't glue with plain jane liquid epoxy.

I have never had a failure  (but never used it for curved lams) with Smith & Co's All Wood Structural Epoxy. (google this: Oak and Teak Epoxy Glue - You Can Depend On It ---smithandcompany.org)  It is a 2-part viscous thick material formulated for gluing wood to wood.   There is a Steve Smith style tutorial immediately available on the website telling you how to use his glue.  It's probably expensive - don't know about S&H.  
Won't recommend System 3 - T-88.

Jerry,  The companion way looks great, the hatch handle is a great two function bit of work, handle and splash guard. Thanks again for your old companion way trim it worked perfectly for my Electra, an odd note, all but one screw hole lined up with my original holes.
  I seen somewhere  you wanted to test the strength of your laminated beam to the tune of 2500lbs. How about the same way the strength of fiberglass layups were tested in the 60's, lay the beam in your driveway and drive your pickup on it and measure the flex.  Carl

Carl
 
You're the second person to tell me to drive a vehicle up on the strongback. I might have to give that serious consideration.
 
Glad the piece worked out for you, how amazing is it that the screw holes lined up????

Jerry,
   I guess the one guy with the tape measure may have built our boats!!!!! LOL
 I wasn't kidding about driving on it, although you could try jacking the truck up with a floor jack and then lowering the tire on the strong back so you can monitor the flex if any.

Well...after feeling unsure of the actual design specs needed to support my mast and knowing I did not want a problem down the road I decided to enlist the help of a professional.
 
I started off by sending an e-mail to Jim Taylor who designed the entire Precision line including boats up to 28 feet that used strong back designs. He has also been involved with the design of the Sabre Spirit a 36'-8" daysailer along with 5 other Sabre boats. And that just touches the tip of the iceburg for what Jim has worked on. When I contacted him he put me in touch with Steve Koopman who is the marine structural engineer that Jim partners with on his designs. Steve's business is SDK Structures and he has been involved in projects like Alinghi, and Speed Dream - the quest for the fastest monohull on the planet. So I feel very comfortable with his ability to produce sound structural design work.
 
The cost to have Steve provide me with an engineered design that would allow me to safely support my mast turned out to be in my opinion quite reasonable. So a deal was struck and Steve has designed my strong back for me. Unlike most Ariels and Commanders my strong back has a pretty wide unsupported area that is designed to be as wide as 39". I wanted the more open feel that this would give me in the small commander cabin.
 
Steve tells me the loading on this beam came in higher than either he or I had first suspected. He told me the compression loads are maxing out in the 7000 lb range. So to manage the load with my 39" wide unsupported span I will be using carbon fiber caps top and bottom on the laminated mahogany beam. Here is the design I will be using see the first picture below.
 
As of this last weekend the old bulkheads are out and the old tabbing ground down a lot to allow for the installation of the new bulkheads and beam.

Jerry,
How goes your project?
I have not been able to even start anything on my winter project list and am getting worried that I won't find a slot to get her into the shop before spring. I guess its good news we're so busy but I would like to get The Princess into the shop for a week or two.
I think my experimental battery bank (4 group 27s) has served its purpose after two years and the voltages are starting to vary between batteries by upto a volt. They are still good enough to serve as house batteries on some other boats, so I'm planning on replacing them with a more substantial bank. I think I'll mount most under the cuddy sole where I took out the 500lbs pig and leave some in the chain locker to help balance the boat. I was pretty happy with the range of the 77 ah pack but I think perhaps I was biting too deeply into the depth of charge and shortening the life abit. Also I had to send my charger in to be checked and adjusted as it was failing to go into float mode and boiled the batteries a couple of times.
I'm just starting the process, have you done much research? What have you been looking at as far as brands and types? Have you landed on anything yet or found anyone you would deem a clear leader in the field of the Lead Acid batteries? Have you abandoned the idea of Lithium ion? I don't know if I could swallow the cost.
Mike
C227

Mike
 
First I'll address your question about batteries.
 
As far as batteries go I have done a lot of reading on the subject and part of that research taught me that in a battery bank like you and I need, not only do the batteries all need to be the same model and age, but they should also be in the same physical location. The reason is that ambient temperature can cause batteries to charge at a different rate and get out of balance with each other. Which could possibly explain part of your issue. Destiny will be a coastal cruiser so I probably need more range from my batteries than you would being located on a lake. But also like you the added 500 LB lead pig is coming out of Destiny and I really like the idea of a similar amount of weight going back in, in the form of batteries. So my batteries will be these....


[URL]http://www.odysseysoutheast.com/pc1800-battery.php (http://www.odysseysoutheast.com/pc1800-battery.php)[/FONT]
Four of these batteries will fit very nicely on the cabin floor under the forward end of the cockpit. They can all fit in the same location with square aluminum tube under and between them for air circulation and heat dissipation. My charger has a thermocouple heat sensing unit that will go in by the batteries which will keep them from overheating. If the heat climbs to high the charger shuts down until the temperature drops back to a lower range and then it starts up again. Because these batteries have a very large inrush capability they can be charged faster than many other batteries. But in this heavy charging mode than can also develop more heat. So I may decide I need to add a temperature sensitive fan to the battery bank area to assist in the heat dissipation.


I also like that for the same dollars I can get close to twice the range with the Odyssey batteries that I could get with the Lithium Ion batteries. Those batteries are just too expensive for me.
 
The progress on Destiny came to a screeching halt for a while. Business got so bad that I was down to 30% of my normal income and it meant that all non essential expenses were eliminated. So I put all my effort into doing what I could to turn that around. Thankfully things are improving again so I am finally getting back to work on Destiny.
 
The construction of the support beam has proven to be more of a challenge than I first anticipated. I am actually on the second attempt and this one so far is going well. The first attempt went bad when I tried to use resorcinol for the glue in the mahogany lamination. I did not have enough open time with the glue to make it in one layup and so I was forced to do it in several steps. The resulting beam started to seperate when I applied the first 20 layers of carbon fiber. And this is too important to take a chance with so it was back to the drawing board.
 
For the second shot at the beam I used a tropical blend epoxy (very slow setting) to give me plenty of time to get glue on all surfaces and everything clamped up. The beam came out perfectly. Then I shaped it to fit the underside of the deck (no small challenge) allowing 5/16" accross the entire top for the carbon fiber that would come next. Then I layed up 20 layers of 9 oz unidirectional carbon fiber on the top of the beam. After it cured I ground the edges flush with a belt sander and to my delight when I test fit the beam I had a very good fit. :D
 
Tonight after work I plan to get everything set up and ready for the 20 layers of carbon fiber and two more layers of mahogany that will go on the bottom of the beam. Then tomorrow evening I can hopefully do the laminating.
 
Here are a couple of pictures of the beam in it's current status.

THAT'S BEAU*TIFUL WORK.


you know me. the fly in the ointment...

The quick fix for sagging beams and flattened coach roofs has been thru-bolting a piece of
metal plate across the span to the ole beam.  It's in the Manual.

But it occurs to me that a beam of your excellent proportions
could have a 1/4" slice taken out of the center (not through the cabon layer!) - the long way - and replaced with a carbon insert like the one on top.  Or of course stainless.
But carbon is the theme here.
Given the stiffness of carbon, and the epoxied-in 'plate' supported against deflection by the wood on either side, you'd have a compression beam that would NOT require a post..... a non-compressable beam.

Beam ends would need  minimal vertical support of course.)  Just being helpful:D
(buzzing off then.....)

Thanks for the complement Ebb.
 
Steve Koopman who designed this for me says it will support 7000 lbs. with a 39" clear span between the bulkheads the way it is. There will not need to be a compression post in my commander when I'm done. Take a look at post 119 below and you can see what it will be like when I'm done.
 
Oh and please keep bing the fly in the ointment. :-)

Jerry,
Always good to have a Steve Koopman on one's side!

Dave Gerr (I bought his book last year0 probably has a formula for the downward thrust of a mast.
7000 seems more than adequate.  Not being sarcastic at all.

That arch cannot be flexed, at all.

Therefor you could open up the bukhead even more.  Just enough to brace the ends of the beam.
Just mentioning that.
I think what you have come up with
is very nicely proportioned indeed.
Looks and feels right.:cool:

Jerry,
That is a beautiful beam! Really impressive, can you make two ;) ?

I can't wait to see you get that installed, if it works out as great as it looks like it will, I may have to do the same to my commander sometime in the future.

Thanks Michael
 
I really appreciate the complements from you and Ebb.
 
I've been a woodworker all my life but I have to admit doing woodworking for a boat is a challenge that I am really enjoying. I like being forced to stretch my abilities because it makes it far more interesting than something simple like building a piece of furniture.
 
Our boats were built in a manner totally unlike the computerized production lines of today and every one is differant from every other one in many ways. So even though a single concept can be used on all Commanders, no two parts needed from one to the next will be exactly the same. But if you are serious about considering this for your commander and want to study the design a little closer I have attached a PDF of the design Steve did for me so you can see it better.
 
Like you I can't wait to get it installed myself. ;)

Jerry, Thanks for posting the design!

As of right now I have way to many other items on my plate to even think about starting a big project like that! But I do think the concept is great and the execution is looking awesome.

Well, I finished putting the 20 layers of carbon fiber on the bottom of the beam and two more layers of mahogany after that. The beam is almost done fabricating. In addition I made the two bulkheads that will support the beam. After I take a little break and post this I plan to go back to the shop and cut the slots in the end of the beam that the bulkheads slide up into. Then it is one more dry fit test to make sure everyting will assemble correctly and it will be time to mix some thickened epoxy and glue the beam up to the bottom of the deck. After that is done it will be time to tab in the bulkheads.

FANTAbulus!

Nice lines to the bulkheads too. (Is this another new set? They look different from above....)

Can't wait to see more pics!

Thankd Rico
 
Yes they are slightly differant. I got to thinking about how I was going to bend the trim that will go on the edge of the bulk head and having a sharp bend in one direction and then another sharp bend in the opposite direction made that unesscessarily difficult. So I simplified it so I would have only one bend and found that I really liked the look also.

Have to say I like the look of the S curves you have in post 122.
It isn't often we get to throw in a few doodahs
that treat the eye and the hand.

Most of the S could be scrolled from a single piece of mahogany
or more easily from two.
Since the trim is not structural, short grain is not a problem
even if the trim is as trim as it can be made. (1 1/4" X 1 1/4" ?)

Looking good!


{Edit:  Keeps tickling the old greycells.

Imagine if I was doing it I'd consider GLUING the trim on.  NO fastenings, no bungs.
The upper portion will be grabbed at times by fingers steadying their owners.
A damaged piece of trim  is fairly easy to replace even if glued on.
And of course THAT will nevah happen!)

Ebb
 
The best part about an opinion is that we all get to have one. :-) You should know that you are not alone in your opinion. Another very good friend of mine who is the best sailor I know feels the same way. But not counting my opinion I have had an equal number of people say they like the new version better than the old. In my mind's eye I tend to like the way I have it now because it is more like the connection at the top of the bulk head where the beam meets the bulk head. I like the symmetry of the new look. And I really don't like short grain or the look of short grain on trim. So I will either steam bend some mahogany trim or glue up thin strips to make a continuous piece of trim to follow the curve.
 
Oh and I will glue the trim on. I have no doubt that this will be a major place to grab to steady myself and others when down in the cabin.

But progress is being made.
 
My plan is to paint the bulkhead plywood white and have the support beam and support timbers under it along with the mahogany trim on the edge of the bulkhead ( not installed yet...I'm waiting for glue to show up to do the laminate) accenting it. I'm fighting my tendancy for lots of natural wood because I don't want the cabin to be a dark hole when I go down there.
 
Aft of these bulkheads will be two cabinets. On the starboard side will be the sink cabinet. On the port side will be the stove cabinet. There will be a fold up counter top that will span between them to use when cooking. And the cover for the stove will fold back to create either more counter space or a chart table which will be supported by a drawer that I will pull out.
 
I worked out the location and support structure for the foot pump that will supply water to the sink. I also have the base almost completed for the thru-hull for the sink drain. I will show that progress later.

Wow! Nicely done Jerry! In the execution of your support arch, you have managed a very elegant merging of the  form vs. function dilemma - neither of which is lacking. Your support arch, with the carbon fiber layers looks unusual, but graceful and purposeful. The black carbon lines accent the graceful arch. Kind of reminiscent of Greek temple or the mystical Pi...  I love it! Bring on the togas!

(http://www.sacred-destinations.com/greece/images/naxos/portara/resized/portara-ccc-navin75-p.jpg)

My 2 cents: don't fight "your tendency", all that wood will warm it up down below and just add to the elegance of your interior. You'll have plenty of white with the cabin sides, overhead and other fiberglass structures to lighten things up.

Way cool!!  :cool:

Thanks Mike
 
It's amazing how many hours we put into these boats and it's nice to know others appreciate what we are doing.

Beautiful work!  

I suspect a little Greene and Greene reference in the styling, the corbels and the carbon fiber ebony?

Ben

You know Ben I never gave it any thought about trying to make it look like a specific type of style. I just built something that looked good to me and accomplished the structural design also. But now that you mention it I can absolutely see what you are talking about which I guess proves that I am a fan of the arts and crafts style. Maybe I should add a few square pegs of ebony to the corbels to complete the look. :-)

So I spent some time this week after work roughing out the parts I needed for that. This gives me a better feel for where it will end up.
 
I carried the aft side of the cabinet all the way up and it will also serve as the anchoring point for the aft lower shroud chain plate.
 
But alas I need to fall back and do more glass work before I can go much further on this part. I just don't enjoy doing the glass work as much as the woodworking so I tend to put it off until I need to deal with it.

Jerry,  As hard as I can look I see no 'roughing out'!!!
You must have switched pix, right?

What's that tool on the settee?
Sander, planer?
Miss my PorterCable SO much!
What are you using?

Ebb
 
That is an Elu belt sander that I have had for many years. It has been a work horse for a long time. The only thing I believe it could do better is dust collection. Most new tools do much better on dust collection but this thing just won't die so I keep using it.  I think Black & Decker bought Elu out a long time ago now. I don't know about you Ebb but for me tools become an extension of my body after a while and when a really good one bites the dust it feels like you lost a hand or something.

Black&Decker also swallowed PorterCable.
My little onehanded belt sander died on me.
On the outside it was a beautiful well designed tool.  Perfect dust collection.
Before Black&Decker bought the classy name,  PorterCable tools never  died.
Have to remember that a company that is known for lousey tools
Is always going to sell lousey tools.  Even if they bought a peerage.
 I will never buy PorterCable again.


I also develop close relationships with my tools.
The tool won't bite  if I respect it, give it the attention it deserves.
Still nterested in next generation  nice little belt sanders.
But an imitation, never.  A good tool is eager and dependable, hardly ever lets you down.
Never had a decent relationship with  Black&Decker.
Shoulda known.
NO BLACK & DECKER TOOLS ARE MADE IN THE U.S.

Hard to have allegiances to any power tools companies today.  Most of the effort these companies put into products today is directed at international sourcing and marketing their cordless battery powered tools, which are unsuitable for most of my work.  I don't want to pay $400.00 for a cordless drill that's going to break or need new batteries in two years.  I'll just keep dragging around extension cords.

On the plus side you can buy a pretty decent Milwaukee drill today for under $70.00, made in China of course.  

The Ridge 6" random orbit sander they sell at the dreaded Home Depot is a nice tool.  Buy one just before you have some giant sanding job to do and if it breaks and not too much times has passed since the purchase take it back to Home Depot and they'll give you a new one.  

 I like the 4.5 Dewalt angle grinder  I just bought to replace my fifteen year old Metabo that finally bit the dust.    

And I love my Festool saw that runs on a guide rail, wonderful machine, will change the way you work for the better.  

The big Porter Cable 3.25 HP plunge router is still a great tool, best router for my type of work.  I have three other brand routers that sit on a shelf collecting dust.  But I agree that Porter Cable / Delta is a shell of what it once was.  

People may want quality American made tools but I doubt  they are willing to pay the price they need to sell for.  Festool makes nice products in Germany but their plunge router sells for over $800.00!

I've had lots of things pulling me away from working on the boat recently but I have managed to get a bit more done.
 
First I tabbed in the top half of the main bulkheads on the aft side. Now I need to fair it out and then I can paint the bulkhead itself. This will allow me to install my sink cabinet and the mahogany trim on the edge of the bulkhead.
 
I glued up two layers of 3/4" MDF and layed out my glueing jig for the first piece of trim that will go on the edge of the main bulkheads. And last night glued it up and then this morning I popped it out of the jig. Now I need to clean it up, size it to the final size and then I can do the radius on the edges and the dado in the back that will allow the bulkhead to recess into it. The strips of mahogany had to be only 1/16" thick in order to take the bend without breaking.

Jerry,
Must have been a classic firedrill getting 100 veneers juiced and stacked!  Really impressed!
No blood, sweat, or tears evident in your photos.:D

But I guessing your form is one sided so that clamps are put on directly against the work.
Must have been a lot of slipping and sliding getting that laminate together.

Stacking and clamping the whole stack never worked for me!  Always had to to it a few layers at a time.  Which didn't actually make it easier and took forever.

Thery're going to look great.
Did you use a quickset like Titebond or epoxy?

Ebb
 
For a glue up like this to go smoothly (which this one did) it's really important to be prepaired. Which means that no matter how many of these things you have done in the past doing a dry fit test clamp is very important. Amazing how many things you find are a problem while doing the dry fit test.
 
My jig is actually two sided. In the picture below I assembled the outside parts so you can see what I did. The outside parts were cut into 5 pieces to make gluing up easier.
 
For these glue ups to work long term there are only a few glues that will work. Epoxy is one, resorcinol is another and then the glue I used which was Weldwood plastic resin glue. What ever glue you use it has to set up in a crystal hard form which glues like Titebond do not do. And the plastic resin glue is very water resistant and easy to use.
 
http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=2432&familyName=Weldwood+Plastic+Resin+Glue
 
I also used some small blocks to clamp the wood strips vertically so they would not slip out of alignment.

That's a great point there, that the glue used has to be crystaline structure
so that creep in laminations doesn't happen after set.
I wonder if the jury is still out on Titebond 3 - which doesn't seem to be a 'yellow' glue.
For someone else reading this, even 'structural' epoxy squeeze out can be a problem in this quite technical glue lam.  Epoxy glue ups get starved joints with pressure clamping.

40 years ago our only cabinet and furniture glue was called 'brown' glue (creative, huh?) Or powder glue.
It doesn't leave a glue line on light colored woods.
The most masterful Weldwood glue-up I've ever seen were some varnished spruce masts and spars for a 48' schooner.... What's MORE exterior?
You had to search real close to see any seam at all!  NO glue lines!  High pressure clamping!
But NO purple resorcinol lines.

I'm assuming these not 'waterproof' beauties are still going strong after 3 decades.
You can't fudge  this kind of gluing.
By all intents, if you wanted to,  the A/C strongback could also be made with Weldwood and perfectly milled hardwood lumber.

In the hands of a master the master makes the rules.  Or maybe to say the rules get broken.
Nice, look forward to your next move:D

Very nice job Jerry, can't wait to see it installed!

Just reporting that the tiller I glued up with Titebond 3 last year is still holding tight together.  Put a coat of Epifanes varnish on it and the coamings yesterday evening during one of the brief spring moments we've been allowed in the New York area this year, now we're back to cold and rainy.

Ben

Thanks Ben
 
Tonight was supposed to be the coolest night we are likely to see for the next 6 or 7 months and we are supposed to get down to 47 degrees before dawn. I just know it felt really good working out there tonight and I pushed it longer than I should have for a residential neighborhood. I quit working about 10:15 this evening and I have the piece almost ready to install. A few trim cuts on the ends to work myself into a perfect fit and some sanding and varnish and it will be ready to go in. I need to glue up the second one for the other side but now I have all the procedures and jigs built so that should go much quicker.
 
I'm guessing your tiller will probably hold together for a good long time. Especially if you keep her varnished. What you might notice after time is some of the laminations are very slightly offset from the laminations they are next to. Or possibly the glue lines becoming more prominent or even feel a slight ridge at the glue lines. It would be interesting to hear the results a couple years down the road.
 
How are the deck repairs going?

Under all that varnish I think that tiller would stick together with only wheat paste.  If I had to do it over again I'd have used epoxy.  I've made a few scrap wood kitchen cutting boards using Titebond 3 and have notice some separation along the ends of the glue joints.  But in defense of the glue I don't think I kept these boards clamped up a very long time.

The deck is about ready to paint, some more sanding and then I can prime.  That old deck paint is tougher than concrete.  And I've been thankfully busy with some interesting work projects, so I haven't been able to spend too much time working on Noesis.  I should be sailing soon.

Ben

Kicking a dead horse is the expression, but for the record:

Titebond III passes ANSI/HPVA Type 1 Specs.
Type 1 testing involves using birch plywood-like  laminations cut into 1" X 3" pieces
boiling them for 4 hours, then baking for 20 hrs at 145 degrees.
They are boiled again for 4 more  hours, then cooled using running water.
The pieces are sheer tested while wet.
One assumes the wood will sheer but not at the gluelines.

Generally woodworkers don't trust PVA aliphatic resin glues, probably because they grew up with them and became prejudiced one way or another.

The test above looks pretty rigorous, right?  
Still, there are some that say over time, years later,  in damp conditions Titebond III will creep  (or are they remembering Titebond II?)   Where's the proof?

The ingredients are proprietary. but it is a 'plastic resin' glue.  So is Weldwood a plastic resin glue.  Both glues require in gluing up laminations that the veneers if ripped have the SAW MARKS removed.  Woodworkers say to glue only freshly milled veneers.
So prep is all important.  You have to use the glue according to their specs.  (Then boil your work for 8 hours:D)

In curved laminations
 each piece of the laminate has a side under compression and a side in tension.  That's a lot of stress we ask any glue to overcome.  And that is why thinner veneers are better than thicker iones.

Some insurance for a curved lamination using Titebond III might be in  DRIVING some fastenings through the stack near the ends of the finished piece.
Hardwood dowels might be used at right angle to the lams - glued in with the same glue.  
One or two at either end, say, of a tiller could look decorative and might keep the piece from wanting to move over time.  Just an idea!
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Titebond III is not toxic - you can work without gloves.  
Franklin literature, while full of hype about Titebond III,   NOWHERE mentions that the product can be used for curved laminations.

I've been working some on the sink cabinet in my shop. I had bought some 1/4" thick corian from a cabinet guy that had a back yard full of scraps to use for my woodworking jigs. But I had enough of the grey stuff that I could use it for the counter tops in the boat. I don't have the fiddles attached in this mock up but you can get an idea of how the cabinet will look.

Very nice Jerry.  I like the pockets for the plates and silverware.  If I can make a suggestion, how about a little scroll-saw cut vent in the under the sink cabinet door?  Maybe a cutout of an anchor or a compass rose.  I love little details like that.

Ben

Well Ben, I might just have to give that a shot. I have a scroll saw that has been sitting idle for some time. I may need to clean it up and give your idea a go. Thanks for the suggestion.

Well, same as always, Jerry, outstanding job!  You have such a good eye for this stuff.  Very discriminating in the very best way.  Have I missed something here?  Have you done a rebuild on a boat before?  Maybe as a profession???  

I had wanted to put a solid surface counter top in but was told it is too heavy.  Granted, you have about one-fifth the counter top in your photo above but still...  How much weight do you have in that one piece there?  I'd like to reconsider solid surface in the galley!

Hey Tony
 
Thanks for the complements and no I have never done a boat rebuild before. A lot of this is new to me.
 
You have picked up on the one drawback to the corian counter top. It is heavy. This piece is 1/4" thick and it tips the scale at 5 Lbs. Most Corian countertops use 1/2" thick material but that is a lot more added weight for no added benefit on a boat.

Well, I decided to go with the Meranti BS1088 for my new rudder. And since I used up all of the marine 1/2" plywood I currently have for the sink cabinet and putting the v-birth back together again I figured I would find some BS1088 Meranti to use for the stove cabinet and the rudder. I found World Panel Products, Inc. in Riviera Beach, Florida 33404.
 
Tell me do these prices seem reasonable to you guys?
 
12MM 4 x 8 sheet Meranti BS1088 cost is $89.10 per sheet.
 
1/4" teak and holly plywood cabin floor unfinished 4 x 8 sheet = $175.5

I built back in the v-birth that had to be cut back to install the new bulkheads. Then I installed the new thru hull and seacock for the sink drain and plumbed in the sink. The first picture shows the sink plumbed in to the new thru hull.
 
 
Then I designed and built in my stove cabinet. I'm trying to make everything do at least double duty and this cabinet I think met my goals. My goal was to not loose counter space when using the stove, to make the stove safe and convenient to use, to have a place to store cookware and last but not least a place for my chart books.

Jerry,
     Most beautiful craftmanship your bestowing on your beloved Commander! First class on the plumbing of the sink, with the marelon sea cock and glassed in  backing plate / mounting studs, excellent. I also really like your cabinet cased with the milled solid stock for the rounded corners.
     I too, utilize World Panel Products. They have a distribution warehouse here in NC, down in Windsor that they let me brouse through when in the area.  I think their prices are fair, considering my alternative was a retail outfit in Norfolk called Yukon Lumber. Their prices were very high. World Panel caters to the marine industry and thus has great stock of BS 1088 standard ply along with, teak, mahogany, etc.. I'm like a kid in a candy store when I make it down there to them.

Thanks Chance
 
Coming from another craftsman that does high quality work the complement is appreciated.

JERRY,
    How you holding up in this terrible heat??
 
Here in North Eastern NC it was 98 today with a "real feel" heat index of 110. Tomorrow is suppose to be worse yet! Tonight's low, 79 and humid! I want to head North, let's see, Maine, Michigan?

Not much better up here - Southern Maine was 96 degrees today, not sure about the heat index. And most of us don't have central A/C up here!

Edit: Friday - 100 degrees projected for today. First time since 1973.

Yuck!

PS. Keep up the great work fellas! Both of you gents are setting the bar pretty damn high with your restorations. Very inspiring.

Chance and mbd
 
Well the last two weeks have been pretty slow on the boat progress for a couple of reasons. Prior to the last two weeks I was getting up at 4:00AM and going out to work for 2-1/2 hours when it was still cool. Then I would get on my bicycle ride for 5 miles come back in a get a shower and go to work (I'm lucky that I get to work from home).
 
Then about two weeks ago when I got up I could not see out the windows because they were solid condensation. The temps outside were 85 degrees (at 4:00AM) and the humidity levels were over 90%. Your sweat won't even evaporate in those conditions it just drips all over your work. And my 58 year old body does not like heat like that much anymore. So I would open up the door between the house and the garage (where my wood shop is) so I could get some cooling temps out there and work on some of the mahogany parts needed.
 
Then my workload for my job got oppressive. So I just started sitting down at my desk at 4:00AM to get work done before the phone started ringing. And that is what has been happening all this week.
 
However this weekend I plan to spend dedicated to Destiny again. I have the two shelves above the v-birth reinstalled and the fillet of thickened epoxy done so I will be applying the glass to tie them to the hull tomorrow morning. Then I need to make and install the two chain plate knees for the lower forward shrouds. I also have the shelf on the starboard side above the quarter birth reinstalled to the same point as the v-birth shelves and have started making the parts for the DC electric panel that goes there. I also made some rails to go on that shelf where it will be open shelving. On the port side after I get that shelf reinstalled I plan to have an AC electric panel for when I spend nights in the marina on my little week long cruises.
 
Towards the end of the weekend I will get some pictures so I can show the progress to date for everyone.
 
Thanks for asking guys, it makes me more interested in posting my progress when I know people are interested in seeing it.

Jerry
I have been tied to work and must live vicriously through your boat work and the projects of others.  Help a brother out here!  

Having said that, I really appreciate what you are doing here and hope the best for you.

P.s. My old shop location, Moorhead MN, just topped out with a heat index of 123 degrees the other day.

Thanks Tony
 
I'll make sure to help you out by posting some pictures later this weekend. I think we both need to do something about being tied to our jobs with the ball and chain. :-)

Jerry, Tony, and MBD,
    And to think I thought it was hot here! I would have never thought Minnesota and Maine would be so hot either, must be unusual correct?  
 
MBD,   Thanks for the positive comment.  It's other's on this site that post pics and provide feedback and explanations of their work, that help me stay motivated.  
 
Jerry,  Not much work done eh, compared to my snails pace, I'd say your productive rate of accomplishment on "Destiny" is all ahead full!  I have contemplated Ceili's rudder for many months, and it wasn't until just recently I finalized in my head and now on paper exactly how I am to proceed and with what techniques. For me, sometimes it takes a long time to "decide" on the specific design or course of action.  I often wish I could work faster, but I keep telling myself if I'm not having fun, then I just walk away from Ceili and take a break. Of course the breaks have turned a bit long due to other things like work, lack of money, then when I have some money I don't have time because I'm working, then if I have both (which seems to be rare) it's toooooo darn hot out!
 
Okay, enough of me rambling.
 
Keep up the outstanding, first rate work on Destiny.

Even though I don't feel like I've made enough progress recently to post pictures, some of you are asking so here goes.
 
The first picture is Destiny's water tank plumbed in. Laying on top the tank is the new deck fill fixture which has an intragal vent.
 
The second picture is how I ended up changing the chain locker bulkhead. I plan to do enclosed storage above the v-birth (where the shelves are) with doors that have cane in the center for ventilation, so I needed to shrink the hole going into the chain locker to do that.
 
The third picture is what the main bulkheads look like from the v-birth side. The v-birth is completely tied back into the bulkheads and you may notice in some of the other pictures that I changed the direction of the vertical plywood that supports the v-birth in the center. It used to be one straight piece and the drop in center cushion had to span a pretty wide area. So I made it bend and go more straight back at the aft end of the platform for the porta potty (or head as the case may be) which also gave me a larger storage area under the v-birth sides.
 
The forth picture is the sink cabinet with the first coat of primer on it. If you look closely below the cabinet and aft of it you can see what looks like a mouse hole in the quarter birth. This is where the foot pump for the sink's water supply is installed. Also you will notice some screw holes near the round outside corner. The entire end of the cabinet is removeable for clear access to the plumbing below.
 
The fifth picture is the stove cabinet.
 
There is one more picture that I will have to post in another post (I maxed out on pictures in this one) showing some of the mahogany pieces that will go inside the boat.

The picture below shows some of the mahogany pieces that will go inside the boat. Most of these go in or on or near the two cabinets. I'm currently working on 6 more pieces that below to this group and then I need to make all the parts for my electric panels.

Jerry,
Very impressive. Cabinetry is first rate and looks like it was always there to begin with. What type of white paint have you spot painted the cabin interior with or is that just primer? I have not bought my paint yet and only have past experience with Petit Easypoxy (one part poly). Is your white a gloss, semi gloss, or? I was at a marina last weekend and met an owner of a Cape Dory 25D who was finishing some interior painting and he used Sherwin Williams tinted to Cape Dorries original tan color that was in the sail locker areas. The paint he used looked good, but not sure of it's long term durability.
 
Your mahogany trim and bright work is excellent. What clear coating did you elect to go with on the mahogany?
 
Ahh, I see the trim that is to be installed on the inboard leading edges of the split bulkheads. I have yet to figure out how to make the trim (my bulkheads are similar in shape to yours) to cover up the edges of mine. I want to cap them in mahogany, something like a dadoed solid piece and fasten them counter sunk bronze screws followed by plugs. I'ts an area I have no experience in, but then again I had hardly any experience in glass work either, and seem to have overcome that learning curve. Is your trim like that or is it a laminated build up, and if so did you dado it or will it sit flat on top of the bulkhead edges?

The paint I'm using is Pettit EZ Cabin Coat mold and mildew resistant paint. It is a water based paint that has a semi gloss appearance. The first batch of it I bought was the white and it was just to white for my taste. So I'm using the white for the first two coats of paint and then I'm going to follow with two coats of the their off white. It has a slight cream color to it and it looks great with the woodwork. It also doesn't blind you when you look at it with it's brilliance.
 
On the mahogany trim I had some epifanes here and decided to go with it.
 
As far as my trim for the edges of the main bulkheads here are a couple of pictures of the edge of one piece and you can see a did a dado on the backside to completely cover the edge of the plywood. The pieces are a glued up laminate and you can see my form to make them in my post number 145 of this gallery along with the glue I used. If you decide to go that way it is important to use a glue that hardens into a crystaline form so you don't get creep like you would with normal woodworking glue. Also if you go this way it is important to keep the slices of wood in the same order that you cut them from the board. It makes it much harder to detect that they are a bunch of strips glued up together. I've shown friends those pieces and until I told them how I made them they did not notice that it was strips glued together. Also in the past when I did glue ups like this I used to plane the surfaces of the pieces I glued together. These pieces had such a tight radius to follow that the pieces had to be so thin there was no way I could surface them. So I put a very good blade on the tablesaw and just ripped them off of a single board and kept them in order. After glue up you can't tell they were only surfaced with a saw blade. Oh and one last hint about the thickness of the pieces you glue together. The way to determine the thickness required for the individual strips is to slice a piece the thickness you think will work and then bend it around your form. If you can hold it tightly against the form around the entire curve without it breaking you are thin enough. If on the other had it snaps then cut another piece thinner and try again. Repeat the process until the piece is able to follow the form without breaking.

I took the time (when I really should have been doing other things) to work on Destiny's electric panel area this weekend. I have always disliked how boat builders put the smallest fuse panel in that they can get away with on boats. Today we have a lot more electronics than we used to in addition to the normal stuff like lights and power outlets. In addition I like dedicated breakers for each electrical item. With this setup I should be able to have dedicated breakers for everything and and 3 or 4 left over for spares.
 
The panel is hinged to allow easy access. To the left of the panel is where a 110VAC outlet will be available for use when at the dock in plugged into shore power.
 
The two frames I made for the panel I made as mortise and tennon frames as you can see in the first picture.
 
The second picture is a mock up of how it will look later.

Jerry,
Interested in your modus operandi.....
Great tip on bending and gluing a continuous trim piece. (Cutting from one piece and stacking in order!)
Looks like you had to actually cut veneer thickness (1/16") for that bend.
Can't see too well because there is a white smuuge on the end photo shot - must be the reflection.
But get the idea.

What blade do you use?  Obviously has to be as thin as possible so as not to waste too much precious wood.
What glue?  Epoxy?  Don't think so.  
I worry about creep in all aliphatic derived glues.
Brown glue - viz Weldwood water mix powder resin glue?  imco, just fine for interior trim.
[And as I have said befor: I've witnessed 50'  spruce mast scarfs glued with Weldwood Resin Glue.]

Have a tip on applying the glue to the veneers?

And the form you use.....
Do you bend into a form? (my preference for clamping ease), OR around a form?
How do you control even clamping pressure to avoid excessive squeeze out? (Yeah, Right, Carefully!)

Ebb
 
You are correct that the strips that were glued up are in fact only 1/16" thick to make the radius.
 
As far as saw blades, I have come to like Freud blades the best. I've used all of the top brands (a high quality blade is a joy to use compared to a cheap blade) including Forrest blades. But Freud manufactures differant grades of carbide for their differant saw blades. And the prices for what you get are really reasonable. And while a thinner blade will in theory cost you less material it will also vibrate more durning the cutting process. This will result in a rougher surface which is what I was trying to avoid for the glue up. This is the blade I used for cutting the strips.
 
http://www.freudtools.com/p-29-general-purposebr-nbsp.aspx
 
The glue I prefer is Weldwood plastic resin glue. As you mentioned it is a powder that is mixed with water I actually use a small mixmaster I bought at a yard sale to mix it completely. And it depends on the job I'm doing as to how I apply it. In the case of this trim it was so narrow that I just used a brush. I flipped over the top piece and coated that surface and the surface that was exposed on the top of the remaining stack. Then I flipped over the the second piece on top of the first one I had just applied the glue to and did the same thing again. I continue in this manner until the whole stack is ready for the form. When I am doing wider strips I like to use a roller to spread the glue. It goes much faster and gives you a more even application of the glue.
 
Before I put the stack in the form I turn them up on edge and push everything in alignment. Then I will take a couple of pieces of painters tape and wrap around the stack on each end to help hold them in alignment as the clamp up is begun.
 
The form is the most important part of the glue up. And it depends on the piece I'm doing if I will bend into a form or around a form. In the case of these pieces I bend around the form. I had a long straight part of the glue up and then a sharp curve. I was able to clamp the straight part to stablize the material before bending around the curve.
 
I like to use MDF for my forms because the material is consistant throughout, it is stable and it is dead flat. I start out by doing a full scale drawing of the finished part on a piece of 3/4" thick MDF. This gives me the inside curvature and the outside curvature (they are differant due to the material's thickness) of my form pieces. You can see a portion of my form's layout in the first picture below. The double line near the inside of the piece in the drawing showed where my dado would be cut later and that is actually the shape of the edge of the bulk head it is going over.
 
When I lay out the shape of the piece on the MDF I also lay out where the clamps will go around the form. And on this form you can see where I drew lines to cut the outside of the form into smaller blocks to make glue up easier.
 
Next I cut the picture of the final piece out of the center. I use a longboard to hand sand the edges of the form that will go up against the piece. When they are perfectly smooth, I glue and screw another piece of MDF to the one that I just finished making. Then I use a flush trimming router bit to cut the second piece (that I need for the added thickness of the form) to the exact shape of the first piece.
 
I fear this may be getting to be to long of a response to Ebb's questions and don't want to bore you. So let me say one more thing and provide one more picture of the form all clamped up and if you still have questions please ask and I will answer.
 
The last thing I want to mention is the edges of the form and anyplace where glue might get where it is not wanted I protect with packing tape. It keeps the part from sticking to the form. And as far as squeeze out goes, I try to protect things under the form that I am concerned about and just let it happen. As you can see in the last picture.

Jerry,
Thank you kindly for the quality response and in answering my questions. Your truley a master at what you do. Very nice craftsmanship I must say. Thanks for making the lightbuld come on in my head, now I understand the process.
Okay, so here's some more:
I see the three lines you drew on the clamping form before you cut. I understand how to get the first line representing the edge of the bulkhead, but how do you draw the inner line (that represents the depth of the dado) and the outer line that represents the actual mahogany trim? Do you use a compass?

Chance
 
Actually the inner line that represents the depth of the dado is the same as the bulkhead edge. The bottom of the dado is what will bear on the bulkhead edge so that is the first line and it matches the edge of the bulkhead. Then you could use a compass to get the other lines parallel to the bulk head line but I have always found that difficult to do. So I use a small 6" steel scale that is divided up into 32nds of an inch and make small pencil lines the correct distance from the original line every half inch or so apart in the area of the curve and then just connect the lines. For me it is just easier.

Jerry,
   Okay. So, let me see if I got this right......after the three lines are drawn on the MDF, you cut the clamping jig.  First you cut on the outer line that reprensents the  top of the trim and then cut on the inner line that represents the bottom of the trim, correct? The line that represents the actual bulkhead (bottom of dado) is not cut but only used for a reference point for the other two lines, correct?
 
By the way, beautiful mortise and tenon stile and rails on Destiny's electrical panel cabinet!!
 
Your fiddle rails look very similar to mine. I'll post photos some time.

Chance
 
You got right. And one more hint, I cut just inside (or outside depending on which surface I'm cutting for) and then sand up to the line. That gets me dead on the line with a smooth surface.
 
Good luch with your project and thanks for all the complements. This is the best part of a forum like this one. We can learn from each others experience and make the ones we are attempting easier and end up with better results. I know I certainly learn from your projects and really appreciate your posts about them.

Jerry,
    Thanks for the prompt reply and entertaining my specific questions.  Your expertise and tips are very helpful.
 
What type of Mahogany did you finally decide on for your interior trim work?  Looking good. So with all your progress, do you work and have family too??
 
Charge on.  It is clearly evident that "DESTINY" is in very capable hands and her steward seeks nothing but the best in and for her!

Chance
 
Most of the mahogany in the interior is Honduras mahogany. I found a lumber yard that caters to the marine industry and they stock it.
 
Yes, unfortunately I still have to work for a living. I usually work between 40 and 50 hours a week but I do it from home so it makes it more tolerable.
 
And yes I have a family I really enjoy spending time with. That is in fact the reason for the commander. I needed the large cockpit to take my family sailing. I have been married to the same woman for 39 years and we have two grown daughters who have given us our 3 fantastic grandchildren. I spend all the time I can with the grandchildren and love every minute of it. We are lucky that they are close and we get to see them a lot.
 
The only other thing that makes my progress slow on Destiny is the constant heat and humidity here in Florida. The older I get the less I can tolerate the heat and we get 3 months in the summer where the feels like temperature is over 100 every day. I am really looking forward to fall.

Jerry,
     Thank you. I love working with Honduras Mahogany. I also like African mahogany for it's rays, but dislike the stringy grain.  Sepele I think is also beautiful.  I have a bit of Honduras that I made the fold down bulkhead tables from, but my fiddle rails are a mix of Honduras and African. I have more African in my little work shop than I do of the prized Honduras.
 
Congratulations on your tried and true family! It seems in today's western culture, couples find it all to easy to dispose of relationships and marriage. You have me beat though, as my better half and I have 18 years  and two wonderful teenagers. No grandchildren yet, and hopefully they are a ways off.
 
I can't even imagine the additional heat and humidty that you endure down South, but like you, I find my tolerance for weather is less now than it was years ago. Favorite time of year is spring and fall, go figure.

For my DC panel sides I had cut some scrap pieces of meranti 12MM plywood to enclose it with. I used the same for the enclosure for the 110VAC outlet. I did not want to paint these sides white but they just didn't look good with the Phillipine mahogany finished with varnish. Then I remembered I had bought a small packet of quartered mahogany veneer at a wood working show a couple of years ago and never used it. So I veneered the faces of the sides that will show and you can judge for yourselves if it was worth the 1/2 hour it took me to do it. The small piece at the top is meranti with varnish on it and the other two are the ones I veneered.
 
The second picture is the latest batch of parts getting finished.

Jerry,
   As usual you continue to place the bar of excellence out of my reach. Very beautiful work your bestowing on Destiny! I have never worked with veneers, but know about quarter sawing and the pieces you veneered look fantastic.
   Your rate of accomplishment is noteworthy too.
 
Question: In one of your earlier post of your potable water tank, I noticed what appeared to be cork sheet isolating the  monel nickel tank with the hull. I know you added this isolator as it is not a Pearson touch. What is the actual material and did you do this to account for bit of slop between the tank sides and hull, as built by Pearson?
    Also, is that a plastic (marelon) water deck fill fitting with integral vent? I like the idea of an integrated vent, but wonder how well the material will hold up to UV?

Thank you for the complement but I for one do not believe working with veneer is out of your reach. You have the self discipline to do the job well. And small pieces like these are really easy to do. Large ones really require a vacuum press to get them well bonded without bubbles. These I was just able to put clamps around the perimeter to hold everything flat.
 
Like your use of a roller to spread epoxy resin evenly I use a rubber roller to spread glue (Titebond III) to the surface of the plywood. Then I lay the veneer on top and a piece of waxed paper which is followed by a piece of scrap plywood. Then just clamp it up and let it dry. Really it is very easy.
 
As far as the cork spacers you are absolutely correct that I added them. They serve two purposes. One as spacers to make the tank fit snuggly and two as a cushion to eliminate wear from the tank rubbing against the hard plastic hull. I used 1/4" thick layers of cork and contact cemented as many together as were needed (usually 2 but one location needed three) at each location to get the tank to sit solidly without movement. I also held them in place with contact cement between the hull and the cork.
 
For the deck fill for my water tank I have attached another picture that tells the rest of the story. There is a brass or bronze cover (not sure which) that is chrome plated and it is the only thing exposed on deck. The marelon is all below deck with the exception of the very edge of the top. it is exposed around the perimeter of the chrome cap.

Jerry,
   Great detailed photo. That was great foresight or is it insight, to isolate the potable water tank from making contact with the hull. Here's an off question for you. Have you ever used an oxygen displacer (like argon) to inject into the can of your favorite paint or varnish finishes before placing the lid back on?  I just order a small pressurized can of argon to do just that. Don't know if it will help, but I hate getting that skimmed over hard layer from half empty cans of spar varnish.

Chance
 
I have not tried the Argon yet but it seems to be heavily promoted lately and I am planning on trying it soon. I will be interested to hear your comments after you use it.

Used the wine preserver type that comes in a tall aluminum wine bottle sized can.
Won't recommend it.  Maybe good for getting the heavier than air element into an opened wine bottle
but I think the stuff comes out at too high a pressure for displacing air in the top of a varnish can.

When varnishing and having the can opemed and closed a number of times,
trying to keep the varnish from skinning was a failure.

There is a fairly new product with a tricky name aimed at  paint can people.
If I saw it I'd get it to try.  The argon can't come out at too much pressure to be useful imco.
It'll just get blown out of the can.

Ebb
 
Good to hear actual experiences with these products. Thanks for chiming in.

Found it on the System Three store site (Bloxygen Left Over Finish Preserver - System Three Resins, Inc) with a little write up.

We just used argon to tent some historical vehicle wool floor mats that were being consumed by clothing moths.  
Our reasoning was that the bugs couldn't live without air for X number of days.  
We sucked the air out of the Banana Bag with a vacuum cleaner and then slowly re-inflated the plastic bag with argon from a welding supply bottle.
And argon as the most inert gas on the planet wasn't going to react with anything historical in the process.
Or poison anybody riding in the car after 'treatment'.

Don't know about displacing oxygen in a fairly full paintcan with  argon.  It seems to me it would have to be somehow fogged on to be actually effective, rather than using the supplied straw.

Anything is better than marbles!
And much safer than using propane gas from yer torch!

System three's website must be down cannot get it to come up. Even tried the link from a Google search.

I have a moisture meter for wood. The way the meter works is you input the specific gravity for a species of wood and then when you lay the meter on the wood it will tell you the moisture content of the wood.
 
So today after doing some fillets down below I decided to start tackling the deck issue. I looked up the specific gravity level of balsa and it was .17. My meter only goes down to .30 so I set it at the lowest setting and thought I would give it a try anyway on the deck. Well the meter read 20% moisture everywhere I placed it on Destiny's starboard deck near the cockpit so I though it would not work correctly on balsa.
 
Then I started drilling holes in the deck and as soon as I would reach the bottom of the top skin with the drill bit it would fall through and bounce of the bottom skin. Oh NO!!!! Well I started cutting it open and here is what I found.
 
Let the games begin. :(

...'let the game begin.'
Be interesting to see how you wrestle* with this one!
Mike Goodwin called it tunafish.  
Think it a bit better to deal with rotton tuna balsa fish than rotton plywood that  others get into.  
Count yerself lucky!
Haven't had to do A-338's deck YET.  
But it does look like if you do it in sections at a time'
it's not too big a deal.  Big costly!!!!
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________

*Collegiate and Olympic wrestling is great sport to watch.  I do mean watch.
Here are some takedown moves you'll have use on your deck:
double leg - single leg - high crotch - duck under - standing switch - stuff the head - head  lock - and the front head lock.  Got that?:D  
(taken from wikipedia)

I guess I'll take a break for a few hours and let it cool back down some before I grind the edges of the cutout down to a bevel. I got the first section this far and found some not so rotten balsa. So I'll do this section complete and move onto the next section. I get in and out of the boat here so I want this area solid again as soon as possible.

Well, last night around 6:30 the temperature dropped to 88 degrees so I went back out started to grind around the perimeter so when I lay my glass down over the new balsa core the top of the deck will end up at the same place it was berfore I started and everything will look fair and smooth. About half way through I looked up and the shelter was one big cloud of fiberglass dust. This morning when I went back out there everything was covered on a thick layer of fiberglass snow. It took me 2 hours to clean it all up so I could work again.
 
Once I got everything cleaned up I installed the tiller so I could sit on the cockpit seat and decide where I wanted to put my genoa winches later. I decided the most convienient place for them was just forward of the deck scupper drain. That area will not have any balsa it will get built up with layers of 1708 (I have lots of small pieces left over from other work) and epoxy.
 
Then I took some finishing cloth I had and wet it out over some holes in the bottom skin for the deck where hardware had been previously. I needed to plug the holes for the balsa install and that was an easy way to do it.
 
Yesterday when I dug out all the wet balsa (or as Ebb says tuna) I dug out under the perimeter of my cutout also. So now it was time to pack that area back in with thickened epoxy. It took 36 oz of epoxy with cabosil in it to fill the perimeter edges.
 
There is a very wide variance in the thickness of the top skin of the deck and also of how thick the gap is for the balsa core. In some areas the top skin was 5/16" thick and in other areas it was 1/8" thick. And in some areas the core gap is 3/8" and in other areas it is 3/16" thick. As Ebb says I will need to do some serious wrestling to make this all come out looking good later. The game is only in the first quarter for this project.
 
It looks like some of Florida's imfamous Love Bugs got into the epoxy in the second picture and could not get back out.

I know you're not giving compleat details like certain persons.  But
it's important imco that the surface you are putting the thickened epoxy into
has been "primed" with UNthickened first.  
First meaning: just befor you put the buttered pieces in
and maybe stuffing the under-excavations with  thickened goop.

Just my opinion.
I think you want squeeze-out where ever it happens.  360!:cool:


Jerry, You do unbelievably BEAUTIFUL prep work.  Really, never seen anything like it.
I don't know how the hell you do it.
  Prep is 95% of the finished job!  Maybe 90%.

One more prejudice.  I think epoxy gel is made 10 times stronger with the addition of 1/4" chopped strand.  Years ago I heard somebody call it 'mishmash.'   If you don't want to deal with the hair, even milled fiber will double the strength of plain cabosil and epoxy.  Micro balloons add no strength.

Sorry, there may be somebody looking in who's just about to do it himself.
It's not easy having three things going at once:  liquid - gel - mishmash.  
But that's rassling.:rolleyes:

Hefty makes 2 1/2 gal zip-slide bags that will take gallon cans.
Keep the A and B cans cold in the fridge until you get to the jobsite with the cans in a cooler.
At 88degrees you'll gain at least 15mins of extra time!

Ebb
 
The first batch of epoxy I mixed was used to wet out the finishing cloth and then I used a 1/2" brush to wet out the area I was packing epoxy into just before I added the cabosil to the rest and started packing it in. And I did keep pushing the thickened epoxy in until the stuff came back out at me all the way around. I'm confident I got the area completely filled. I also considered mixing in some microfibers in the thickened epoxy but I did not have enough here to do the entire job and my thought was that the packing was not doing anything structural where I was putting it. It was just filling a gap so I proceeded without it.
 
I do appreciate your input. Someone needs to keep me straight...Lord knows I can wander on my own. :-)

Jerry, I bought some milled cotton fiber a couple years ago from fiberglass coatings in Fl , it was grey colored and lumpy and not very uniform at all really pretty crappy stuff to mix. I bought a couple more pounds of it this spring and this stuff was bleach white very uniform and dry feeling. Very nice stuff to mix in, kind of like silica. Don't know why the difference in quality but it is great to work with. I could never do the size area your doing all at one time, I work too slow and pot life "cooks" my goose. nice work!

Thanks Carl
 
I have bought a pretty good bit of stuff from Fiberglass Coatings, in St. Pete. I occasionally need to go down to that area and I always stop in to get whatever I'm running short of when I do. I get most of my fillers, green squeegees and glass rollers from them. They are pretty friendly and knowledgeable people.

Well we are finally getting a few days where the weather is not carzy hot and it makes working on Destiny a lot easier to do. So I'm starting to get the first area of the recore back together again.
 
The first picture shows my fastener boxes weighting the balsa core down while the tickened epoxy I set it in cured. First I wet out the bottom skin of the deck with unthickened epoxy and then the bottom of the balsa core itself. After that I tickened up some epoxy and troweled it on the bottom of the core with a 1/4" notched trowel. I flipped it over in place and pushed it down first by hand and then with a rubber roller to get it to seat properly. Then I set the full boxes of fasteners on top to hold it in place while it cured.
 
The second picture is how I made the pattern to cut the 1708 biax with. The sheet plastic was clear enough that I could see through it to draw the edges of the pieces of biax I needed to cut.
 
The third picture is how it looked shortly before I put the glass on top. I filled all the edges around the balsa core with thickened epoxy and faired it out so I would have a smooth transition for the glass that would go on top. The area in the center that is solid glass is where the winch riser will bolt through later. I put in 10 layers of 1708 biax in that area which brought it up close to the top of the balsa core and then faired it out with thickened epoxy to make it flush with the balsa core.
 
The forth picture is right after I finished putting 3 layers of 1708 biax on the top. Near the aft end of the work the deck was originally so thick that I will probably have to add a couple more layers in the middle to keep the faring compound thin when I fair it out later.

Looks good Jerry, When I do deck work I bend the balsa core over a piece of large PVC pipe and wet out the scribes in the balsa. In my mind I think it will make the deck stiffer and if it should leak at some time in the future it will slow down the spread of water. Do you see any benefit to my method?  Yes it is a great time of the year to be doing this type of work, that 100 degree stuff was just too much.

Carl
 
Thanks for the tip, I can see how that would be a benefit to the final product. I did have epoxy wick up through the core and stick my fastener boxes to the deck so I probably got some of that with the way I did it. But your method does make sense to me so I will try it on the next section. This really is a learn as you go process for me. I've never done anything like this before. I think I will want to do small areas of core at a time with your method because I would be concerned about the epoxy starting to kick before everything was set in place correctly.

Your Welcome, I have never worked an area as large at one time as your doing, Working alone on that large of an area means you certainly have to have everything laid out perfectly to come within the kickoff on the Epoxy. I recored the coachroof on my Electra and set too much weight on it and bowed the roof in on both sides of the hatch. That sure caused a lot more work than I originally planned on, so I understand learn as you go very well.

But Jerry you  wrote the book!
Interesting that you  chose balsa.  Wood rather rthan plastic.
Imco endgrain balsa will conform to the minor deck camber easier than closed cell pvc foam will
But also, you could say, the balsa breathes which may help disapate air that  gets entrapped
when laying it in place.  
I took a little good balsa out of what I did and  found that polyester in the original composit had penetrated the balsa very well - which you won't get with foam.   With epoxy that isn't an issue.  
Sweet water won't find its way into your job for at least a 100 maybe 200 years!

Carl's placing of too much weight outside on his Ensign recore is a good cautionary tale!
Commander's may be different in that the inside glass layer of the composit is not as thin as I found on A-338.  The inner layer after removal of dead balsa and cleanup
would be too bendy to take any weight on it at all!

Not every boat has  this problem.

Thanks Ebb
 
I think one thing that has helped on my project is that I filled the toe rail and then laid up 1708 biax and then a layer of finishing cloth on the underside of the area I'm recoring early on in my project. That stiffened it up significantly. Also the way I modified the bulkhead at the aft end of the chain locker made a huge difference in the stiffness of the bow area. So I'm pretty comfortable that all of the areas I'll be recoring will support the process pretty well.
 
As far as the balsa goes, I really wanted to go with the same material that was originally used. On the cabin top where I recored areas for reasons other than wet core (like hardware reinforcement and the new mast step I built) the balsa was in great shape and just as strong as it was when new. I think if you properly protect it from deck penetrations it will last indefinitely.

Carl
 
I've been treating the epoxy work a lot like I do my woodworking. I always do a test clamp up when I glue up wood projects and use scrap pieces to test a tooling setup. So I always do a dry run for an epoxy layup also. I find I get better end results with less time (and money) invested by following that discipline.
 
For this project I only mixed 18oz's of epoxy at a time. I poured it straight from my mixing pot onto the deck and used a roller to roll it out. After each layer of glass was wet out I used a thin finned glass roller to roll out any bubbles in the material and then started all over again with the next layer. It went surprisingly well.

Jerry,
    Simply EXCEPTIONAL! Your recore process on Destiny's Port and Starboard quarters are some of the finest I have seen.  You continue to impress me with your high caliber work, attention to detail and craftsmanship! Thank you for imspiring others to attempt to do as fine of work as your bestowing on your beloved Commander.

Chance thank you very much for the kind words. I try hard and it's nice to know others appreciate the effort I'm putting into Destiny to make her the best she can be.
 
Well as of today the first area of the recore is ready for high build primer. After the paint goes on nobody but me and all of you here will know she was ever tore apart and put back together. Now it's on to the next area.

While doing the second area of the recore and at a point where I needed to mix up some thickened epoxy anyway I decided to do the cutout for the water tank deck fill. I was pleasantly suprised to find solid balsa in this area but that meant I needed to figure out a good way to dig out the balsa around the perimeter of the opening back approx 1/2" so the screws holding the deck fill in place would not be in balsa.
 
I came up with a slotted cutter on the trim router that worked like a champ as you can see below.
 
The last picture is the area I'm currently working on.

Jerry,  That's indeed a gudun!  Slot cutter on the trimrouter.
Don't want to hiccup undercutting that hole,  you must have nerves of fiberglass.

Most if not all trimrouters are 1/4" collet.
And you had to have  used a cutter with the bearing on top of the blade.

And you had to have first cleared the hole out with a topbearing plunge cutter inside a pattern.
(think that's how aye would have approached it! )  Holesaw?

Catalog time of year....
a current MLCSWoodworking.com, don't recall ordering from them....
BUT they haven't got anything like you must have used there.  Nor does an old Eagle catalog.
So you must have a Whiteside or one of the big boys.  Can't be Freud, Bosch or Grizzly.
Just found an old CMT(OrangeTools),  but their topbearing slotters are all 1/2" shank.

So, tell us what the bit is........pulease!:cool:
What's your trim router? ( I have a Bosch with a catchy name(?)   It has an alternate opensided base that has come in handy for close work  (get to SEE the bit going round!).   But with a slotting cutter?:eek:)

Ebb
 
I have had these slot cutters for so many years I don't even remember where I originally bought them. So here is a link to Freud's assortment of slot cutters some with 1/4" shanks and some with 1/2" shanks.
 
http://www.freudtools.com/p-191-slotting-cutter-sets.aspx
 
Most router bit manufacturers make similar bits.
 
The bearing for the one I used is just below the nut in the picture of it. The bearing rode on the edge of the lower layer of glass.
 
As far as the trim router it's an old Porter Cable (I know they are not your favorite brand) that I have had for several years. Amazing how often I use that thing.
 
Actually I did the main hole with a hole saw and the smaller hole (that allows the vent portion of the deck fill to go in) with a drill bit. I just happened to have a hole saw the exact size I needed. Years of collecting tools has given me several options for most jobs.

Jerry,  Loved the old PorterCables, still have and use a couple D-handle routers.
My crabbing came about because I really liked that mini Portercable beltsander that came on the scene, what now, two/three years ago?  
It looked like a PorterCable.  And initially worked like a well designed cord hand tool should.  
It all must have changed when BlackandDecker bought out PG, don't know.  

All  my working life BlackandDecker were the worst by experience and worst by rep.  
Somehow that cheapside B&D got into the inside of that real nice beltsander.  Other guys on tool forums complained about it.  
It was a $100 tool - I choose to let it expire when it broke down, not to fix it.  Beltsanders are a kind of tool that don't breakdown.  
Maybe they eat belts, don't track, get hot - but they don't die!  Screw BlackandDecker  (EVERY B&D is made in China),  not in my shop!
Don't know how long the routers have lasted without incident, brushes maybe replaced, but I don't remember that - 30 years?.  They're round tops.

Thanks for the expo on the bit.
litlgull has criminally thin inner glass layer to her deck composite.
So I'm saying that Ariel's could use your method as well.
Like you say, if you happily find  solid balsa in a hole, I figure (not having done it)   that you wouldn't need to clean out the wood all the way to the glass (if you couldn't) because when you fill the donut with epoxy and choppedstrand the bit of balsa bottom of the ring will soak it up if not already filled with ancient polyester.   And would work pretty good, too.

The top bearing 1/4" slot cutter just doesn't exist.  Live and learn.  I've got some holes going in the deck.  Great tip!
What you have in that photo does show a nice beefy cutter.  I've got a bottom bearing slotter with a set of interchangeble bearings,  hope there's a 9/16" capable in there - sounds good.

Looking good Jerry.  You'll be sailing that baby in the not too distance future I bet.

Ben

Thanks Ben
 
While I still have a lot to do for the first time since I started I can see the light at the end of the tunnel. I can't wait.

I've been trying to figure out the best way to modify Destiny's mast to allow for the halyards to be internal and at the same time replace the large original sheave at the top.
 
What I came up with and what I am in the process of buying parts for now is not a very expensive change but I believe it will be a significant improvement.
 
I'm having 2 new cheek plates made out of 16ga. 304 S.S. per the drawing below which will allow me to pin two new Harken 6062 sheaves between them one for the main halyard and one for the jib halyard. The two 1/4" holes in the new cheek plates below the new sheaves are for two 1/4" bolts that will have spacers between the cheek plates to help maintain the spacing between them.
 
This is the link for the new sheaves.
 
http://www.harkenstore.com/uniface.urd/scpdinw1.ShowProd?409Z56LC4EMX2
 
Also I made progress on the deck recore. I glassed over the balsa core for the second section of the recore this weekend. But before I did that I made replacement chainplate plugs out of UHMW plastic so I did not have to try and lay the glass around the chainplates. I inserted these temporary plugs in the chainplate slots and cut them flush with the top of the deck prior to laying the glass. This kept the epoxy from filling the slots for the chainplates and still allowed me to easily lay the glass in place. The second picture below shows one of the plugs in place before the glass was layed down.
 
I can pull them now and when I finish fairing this section I will use my Fein Multimaster with a flat blade to cut up through the glass. Then I will use a router with a v-groove bit to widen the slot and create a caulking recess around the chainplate.
 
The last picture is after I layed the glass. I was really disappointed when I went out to look at the job this morning. You might be able to see my issue halfway between the forward lower chainplate area and the the upper chainplate area. Somehow I ended up with a bubble about 2-1/2" in diameter in the glass. I don't know if I had a low spot there that I did not get faired properly or what caused it but I did not see a problem while I was laying up the glass and it was not until I went out to look at it today that that I saw it. Now I will need to grind that area back out and redo it. :(

Hey Jerry, bummer on the bubble! But, I wonder if this is an appropriate timefor the "drill and fill" method? You could drill 2 holes and inject resin in 1 until it comes out the other. You know you have good material and no moisture in those ares.

Also, I'm curious if you're planning on doing something like this before you paint your decks and replace the hardware?

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?1128-Mount-Pads

Mike
 
Unfortunately the bubble actually bubbled up and there is a small dome shape there now. So filling the void is not a good way to go because even after fairing out the top it would still be visable in the finished product. I'm better off just grinding it out and patching the area so it will never be seen. I appreciate you offering a possible solution though.
 
As far as your second idea, I had not seen those posts previously. I like that idea and think it is something I need to seriously consider. I do not plan to put the stanchions back on and I will not have life lines on Destiny but I will have a bow pulpit and possibly a stern pulpit (the jury is still out on the stern pulpit) and I'm getting ready to recore at the bow pulpit next so it would be a perfect time to do that. Thanks for the link I appreciate it.

Well actually a good sailing friend of mine asked me to build him a couple of window seats for his house in Charlotte Harbor. The deal was he would pay for the materials and I would supply the labor and in exchange he would buy me a furler. So these are the window seats I built him and in the process I learned how to do cane work which I intend to incorporate in Destiny's interior.
 
And the link is to the Harken MKIV unit 0 that I'm getting as part of the deal.
 
http://www.harkenstore.com/uniface.urd/sccyspw1.eShowPage?CATALOG=409Z56LC7FV66&CATEGORY=409Z56LC6PSTM

Jerry,
Just tossing something out here on your internal halyard project, probably done already.

Suppose you made those plates into a sleeve box by welding top and bottom shut (except of course where lines lead down inside off the sheeves)
 you could place the sheeves more  inboard IN the mast.  In other words just have the sheeve grooves out far enough to keep  lines off the mast.

You could then attach the sleeve with rt angle tabs in the four corners to the mast outside.
Could also close off more of the vertical opening in the sleeve if wanted.  
Curve the plates out far enough to protect the sheeves, but radius  the plate edges to meet the mast  top and bottom.
Less windage:D

Nice looking furler Jerry. I love the barter system.
Where are we at with our project? you've been a little quiet lately. Hopefully because you've been so busy under the boat shed.
Mike

Nice window seats Jerry.  Always good to explore new techniques, like you did with the caining.  When you get real good at it I'll send you all the classic vintage Thonet chairs I've pulled out of the trash in Manhattan over the years.  I'm with Mike on the barter system.  

Ben

I've said it before, but I wish I had just an once of the talent you guys have.  Nice work as always, Jerry!

Been a little crazy here with very little "free" time.
 
Ebb
 
If I radius the edges of the cheek plates (which is how I had them made) I cannot weld the assembly into a solid box that slides into the mast without making the vertical slot that is cut out of the mast very wide and thereby making the top of the mast weak.
 
Your suggestion is making me contemplate more options however because I am not pleased with the way things are going together with my current plan. And some sort of box assembly that bolts into the mast would strengthen the top of the mast and allow for better placement of the sheeves. I'm back to the drawing board.
 
Mike
 
Sadly no I have not made a lot of progress on Destiny lately. With my friend Tim's project, both of my daughters buying new homes and the moving process I need to help with not to mention the time spent with the grandkids Destiny has been sitting idle for a while. I was able to accomplish a few things that did not require large blocks of my time. I had the 50 or so misc. holes in the mast that I don't want there going forward welded up. I also had the cheek plates made but need to go back to the drawing board on that (see above). I had the fixed goosneck and pivoting vang brackets made (see pictures below) and got the new standing rigging bought and here. As soon as both of my daughters are completely moved and settled I am itching to get back to working on her though.
 
Ben
 
Thanks for the complement, the caning process is not as hard as you might imagine. The single biggest secret to making the job come out well is soaking the cane in water for a minimum of 30 minutes prior to installation. This expands the cane and makes it plyable. If it is not soft enough it will break the fibers as you roll the cane into the groove. And as it dries after the cane has been installed it shrinks back and stretches tight. So tight that in my learning process I had to remake one panel. The cane actually cracked the rail in one of the panels by stretching tight as it dried.
 
Mbd
 
Thank you also for the complement.
 
Pictures below are 1.) the cheek plates I had made. 2.) The new pivoting vang bracket of which there are two because my vang will be cascading. and 3.) The new fixed goosneck bracket

Jerry,
Nice gooseneck fitting!!!

No, by radius I meant on the flat of the plates.
So that when you look at them in the mast slot they would project out from the mast in a curve.
They would in effect be long cheeks for your sheeves.  Top and bottom of curve would begin and end at mast.

So if they were welded up into a sleeve as ebb has done they would slip thru without a problem.

Of course the problem may be in how wide the sheeves are
and how wide the sleeve has to be to accomodate them.

My sleeve-box is at the welders right now, so I can't ckeck on it's actual width.
Got a new sheeve that is 5/8' thick delrin.  It is 6 5/8"D which matches the sleeve dimension.  The groove is made to cradle 1/2" line.
If I get it right the halyard will not run afoul of any hard edges up there.  We'll see!

The aluminum sleeve I believe  is a skoch wider than 7/8".
The original slot in the mast is between 5/8" and 3/4" depending on where you put the tape.    
Widening that slot that much doesn't seem to be too radical.
Altho I will admit  the original slot itself is an engineering problem.
Mast showed a little enlargement of bolt holes.  Have found a bolt with a smooth shank long enough so no
thread bears on the holes.  May have to add a couple bushings to the mast walls later.

Argument is that the welded sleeve adds some structure to the slot if the slip is tight all round.
The thru-bolt gets support in four places: mast wall & sleeve.

With welded top and bottom, the sleeve can be fastened to the mast with clips if thought necessary.  
It's removable and helps keep rain and mud swallows out of mast.:D

You know Ebb pictures of what you have done sure would be helpful.
 
But I get what you are talking about now. According to the manual the original designed width of the sheeve slot in the mast was 13/16" but like yours mine was not that wide. I'm using two Harken halyard sheeves model number 6062 which are 1-1/2" diameter and 11/16" thick. If I use 16 ga. S.S. for the sides of the box assembly my total thickness should be just under the 13/16" designed width of the mast slot. That would be a goal for me since the head stay and the back stay are connected above this entire area. And depending on the design of the box assembly the way it is attached to the mast could also add additional strength to the top of the mast.
 
If I get a chance this weekend I think I will spend some time with my CAD software and see what I come up with.

Strength at the top of the mast IS a very real problem with our old craft.
Certainly A-338's weathered stick.

EG that jib-block  tang that was added by Pearson above the sheeve caused total corrosion from the top of the sleeve box clear to the end of the extrusion, 2 5/8" of nothing.  Aluminum eaten away. I was unable to tell if a former owner reattached the fitting is such a way as to cause such extreme destruction, that he might be responsible for, rather than Pearson.   It may also be a problem others have, and don't know about.

What is the fix?  There are pros and cons on welding.  I hear there is a real problem with the welding interface changing the alloy into something weaker, and don't recommend doing it.  Also hear that any annealing will come back to its original temper ON ITS OWN. Don't know - but do know it would take an expert with a TIG and $$$ to weld in a new curved over-lapping section.   At the moment the top has been cosmetically sculpted closed with LabMetal so that it looks like nothing ever happened.   LabMetal is fun to work with, seems to stick well, but is not structural.

I may add a thin glass patch inside the mast to backup the non-repair.
By way of tying the 'sides' of the mast top together across the front, I am adding a curved piece of 16g s.s. over the front and around to the sides.  It will attach to good mast metal and around the masthead fitting.  Like an eye patch.  That outta do it.

I don't understand why that tang had to be added there in such an awkward way.
 Can't the jib block be hung from the 'crane' portion of the masthead fitting?  What's correct, Jerry?
 It's a little tight but with a long narrow shackle it might work.... or a toggle on a pin....haven't worked it out yet.
If you still have the old head fitting, something could be fabricated and bolted between the 'ears' - some rectangular tube maybe? - positioned in a convenient way to hang the jib block.   Again haven't experimented.  
I have a Ballenger fabricated copy of the cast aluminum crane fitting with spaced double plates across the top and open all the way thru unlike the old one.
Is your advice counter open today?

Noticed the holes you have in your plates for the new sheeves.
It would take a bit of work -  but angled 'clips' could be made that have  a small stud or toe on one leg
that engage  a similarly placed hole in the plate and have the other leg of the clip bent around outside to screw onto the mast.  
So once the clip is screwed in,  the toe engages the hole in the plate.  
Un-screwing would allow moving the clip sideways inward a bit to move it out of the hole.  SO, just holes in the plate, easy to remove.  Idea in progress!:eek:
Don't think this can be done with your current design.
The idea is to create a lock down for that huge slot by finding a way to grip the plates tight to each side of the mast.  
Like having columns on either side of the slot.

Aren't we supposed to be able to dangle the boat from the top of the mast? ? ?

Well I redesigned the mast head pully block assembly and I think this one will get the job done. Once installed i believe it will actually strengthen the top of the mast and it can be easily removed for inspection and repair.
 
The first picture is the bracket I had the local sheet metal shop make. The second shows how it goes into the masthead. The third shows how it will be heald in place during use.

Sweat! That is a very elegant solution.
Mike

Beautiful ideas and execution as always Jerry! I can't wait until you get to the "pretty her up" phase. Wow!

Quote from: mbd;24536Beautiful ideas and execution as always Jerry! I can't wait until you get to the "pretty her up" phase. Wow!

Quote from: Commander227;24535Sweat! That is a very elegant solution.
Mike

Not sure if this is a second or third, but I"ll agree with both!

Really a skillfuil, handsome and masterly solution to leading halyards inside the A/C mast.

And a unique and reproducible way, while modernizing the halyards, to at the same time add  tremendous support to the masthead.

Those fore and aft locking plates...a  marvelous way to button it up and still have later access to the mast.


[Just got back 'my' beautifully welded aluminum sleeve ( meager upgrade for the original big sheave I kept) and opened the slot wider and longer to get it to fit.    When I slipped it in, it was immediately evident that boxing that huge slot-hole is in iteself a very good idea to help reinforce the top of the mast.]
   Jerry's solution to locking in his double sheave assenbly
 that also uses the box to add stability to the myriad of stresses up there at the top of the mast is.... boss!

Thanks everyone, I really do appreciate your comments.
 
This idea originated from one of Ebb's replies to me. So he deserves some of the credit also.
 
Tony G there is so much going on with your project I just need to sit and study your gallery for a couple of hours one day soon. Problem is I've been running around like a mad man lately and hardly time to do my own projects, but I will make it there soon and check out all your progress.
 
Mike (mbd) you are not the only one that can't wait to see what Destiny looks like in the pretty her up phase!!!!!  I am soooo ready to be there but I have to finish the grunt work first.
 
Mike (C227) You come up with a lot of "elegant" solutions of your own so I appreciate your comment.

Been playing with the layout of Destiny's rig. I'm one of those odd ducks who does not want to lead my halyards aft because in my mind it is so much better to have all the necessary controls all in one place at the base of the mast.
 
So this is what I have so far. See the attached PDF.

Hey Jerry, why the extra line and attachment point on your boom vang? Just wondering...

Mike
 
I'm doing a cascading vang which doubles the purchase of the vang. So instead of a 4:1 I will have an 8:1 purchase and make it a lot easier to adjust.

Ya know Jerry I love everything you've done so far...on this...I think you're nuts.
What you want to leave that nice big cockpit for? Why you want to be so far from the tiller while hoisting and dosing. Ever want to single hand? What if you want to reef in big wind and seas?
Run them aft my friend!
Mike
C227

Mike
 
Tell me how you really feel. :-) :-)
 
You and I do agree A LOT about how we want our boats set up.  And the jury was out for quite a while for me on how I wanted to do the halyards.  My previous boats had the halyards led aft. I even recored the cabin top in case I decided to mount rope clutches and winches there for halyards led aft.  And I single hand about 30% of the time I go out. But I have sailed with and watched my good friend Tom Scott single hand his Morgan 30 which he does 2 or 3 times a week with his halyards terminated at the mast.  And I have to say for me the advantages of having them terminate at the mast are more than the drawbacks.  There is less friction getting the sails up and down because the halyards are not running through as many blocks, there are no halyards laying in the cockpit getting tangled with sheets or in on the cabin floor in the way of people who go below. And when I do have passengers on board they don't have to keep jumping around the cockpit to stay out of my way while I work with the halyards.
 
But the single biggest reason I decided to terminate at the mast was one to the things you mentioned.  When I have to reef in heavy wind it is much easier when the halyards are terminated at the mast.  I have to go to the mast to hook the cringle at the tack anyway and with my setup the reefing lines, halyards and everything I need to touch are right there at the mast.  I go there one time get everything set and get back into the cokpit and fall off to start sailing again.
 
This might be one of those few areas where you and I may need to agree to disagree.

Jerry,
   Once again, your attention to detail, craftsmanship, and pioneering solutions to improve / enhance Destiny are remarkable. Question though on your masthead sheave box assembly. From the photos you posted it appears there would be interference problems with the sheave axle pins and the outer wall of the mast extrusion.  You mentioned you have chosen Harken sheaves, what type of pin is being used to hold them in that beautiful stainless steal assembly? Are they clevis pins, machined pins of bronze, stainless, do they have a head on one side and a cotter hole on the other? Or, maybe they are pressed in?  Just really curious because I see you don't have the sheaves installed yet.
 
Thanks for the inspiration!

Initially I was planning on using sex bolts to hold the sheeve assembly in the stainless bracket. They look like the first picture below. I was going to file a small round area for the head to slide through and that would be that. But it occured to me that to change a sheeve should one fail I would have to remove the bracket to do it. So I decided to just use a couple of 5/16" pieces of round rod with cotter pins which would allow me to remove and replace a sheeve without taking the entire assembly out of the mast.

Jerry, that was (also) a good move.  Don't believe those barrel bolts are strong enuf for axle duty.
So the solid rod is way mobetta.  And it comes in 316 if you want it. Or bronze for easy drilling.:D

Jerry,
    Thank you for shedding light on my question, now I can see clearly your solution. The photo spread of your custom sheave assembly installed is great! Very nice work in the design and execution. Okay, so have you a friend who is a metal worker and tig welds? Like Ebb said, definately wise not to use sex bolts for that application.

Hi Chance
 
Unfortunately no friend with a tig welder but a custom metal shop in town with reasonable prices for the things they have made me.

Hi Jerry,
Did you give your metal fab guy a drawing for that masthead doohickey?
If you have one I would love a copy so I can get one made for C157.
Or perhaps you could hook me up with your fab guy.
Thanks,
Mike
C227

Here are the drawings I gave him.
 
I also gave him a full scale profile of the mast section so he could tell how to bend the plates that hold the assembly in the mast. My drawing does not show it but I had him drill and tap for the 6 screws where the two loose plates that lock it into the mast attach to the welded stainless assembly. Tapping the stainless is a lot easier when someone else does it. :)
 
BTW I ended up going to a larger diameter sheeve than the Harken one I first bought. I ended up using the Ronstan RF1767 sheeve that has just shy of 2" diameter.
 
The fabricator I used was a company called Day Metal Products and I dealt with the owner who's name is Bobby Day. The Company is located in Brooksville, FL and the phone number is 352-799-9258.
 
Tell Bobby that if he does not have enough information in his file to build yours that he can call me and I will bring my parts back to him to use as a sample.
 
Also one thing I would do differantly if doing it over the plate on the aft side of the mast that locks the assembly into the mast should have longer legs on it to get the screws further away from the slot in the mast. On mine they bottomed out on the welded assembly so I had to add some washers to pull everything tight.

But I do have to admit I have not been around here for some time.
 
Fall has finally come to Florida and the weather is much better for working on Destiny. When the summer temperatures were 95 degrees every day with 95% humidity (the normal Florida summer weather for about 5 months straight) I have a hard time forcing myself out in the heat to work. And my epoxy allergy forces me to cover up which makes the heat even less inviting. But I have 4 or 5 months of good temperatures ahead of me now so it's back to work.
 
I have made progress on several fronts since I last posted. The deck recore is completely done now (I'll show some pics of that job in a future post) and I have finished something that was a bit of a challenge to my skills (which means I really enjoyed doing it) Destiny's forward hatch. I wanted to build a frame around the hatch to have something to attach the hardware to and to make it look better.
 
As I started looking at what I would have to do to make the frame I realized all 4 sides of the opening were different. And the only way I could come up with to make the frame fit the ceiling correctly was to make some 1/4" thick strips and spread glue between them in groups of three and clamp them to the bottom side of the deck around the opening. First I did the 2 sides and after taking them down I did the forward and aft sides of the opening.
 
Now I had the 4 pieces that would make up the frame in a very rough form. I shaped them enough so I could cut mortises where the frame parts came together and used loose tenons to join the 4 pieces together. At this point I had a very rough frame that all 4 sides curved at a different radius. The center of the frame was smaller than the opening in the deck for the hatch which was by design.
 
I shaped the outside edges of the frame and did some preliminary sanding. Then I glued the frame to the bottom side of the deck with thickened epoxy. After the epoxy dried and I could remove the clamps I ground the inside of the frame flush with the vertical lip of the hatch opening. Because the fiberglass was curved as it transitioned to the vertical lip there was a V shaped area that I had to fill with thickened epoxy. After that dried and I could sand it smooth I glassed in the inside perimeter of the deck opening from the top of the lip to the bottom of the wood. This strengthened the lip area and finished everything off.
 
Here are a couple of pictures of the completed project.
 

 

 

Hi Jerry, nice to see the progress on Destiny, as always beautiful!  Please more pictures.

Ben

Good to see you back on the boards, Jerry.  Once again your eye for fit and fourm is spot on and I don't believe for a second it was a "challange for your skills".  The transition from trim to outside looks like it should be, simple and smooth.  I too await more pictures of Destiny.

Ditto that.  Good to hear from you Jerry.

Thanks Ben, Tony and Mike
 
I have some serious catching up to do here since I have not even peeked in for a while.
 
The deck recore on the starboard side was simialr in scope to the port side but differant in location. On the bow I had a section on the starboard side that was mush. The side decks were not as bad however so the amount of work was similar. A few pictures below.
 

 

 

 

I've been enjoying the cooler temps lately and getting a little more work done on Destiny. I finally got around to making the new coaming boards for Destiny and the very complicated to construct transition pieces that tie the coaming boards into the cabin sides. I still have some rounding over of edges and fine tuning to do but I want to take them off again before I do that and before I take them off I need to modify the winch stands so they fit perfectly where I want them.
 
I had so many parts and pieces in the shop the place was getting cluttered so I started installing some to get them out of the way. I have blue painter's tape covering the light gray countertops to protect them from scratches I would have to sand out.

Looking awesome Jerry. I love your galley set, is the area aft of it to remain as berths?

I totally agree with Mike, Jerry.  That is one beautiful galley.  It follows suit along with the other work you have done on her-clean and purposeful.  BTW, we have been having cooler weather here too, around zero, I hate it...

Beautiful work, Jerry!
Sweet use of space and pull-outs.
Especially the see-thru drawer!
There's a lot of unseen work doing that.
And your glowing art-deco stack bracing the bulkheading is a great touch!:cool:

The blue counter top looks cool - could be formica, looks right.

Looking at those fancy brand new COAMINGS:
Happen to be watching daytime TV, Woodwrights Shop, I think.
Saw a neat tip there on a good way to pare down plugs in screw holes with your low angle plane.
Something I tried years ago with total disaster.
[Now, I knock the tall stuff of the plug off with a sharp chisel,  high enough so that the slant of the break shows which way the grain goes.
Then pare the stub down flush with the chisel from the short side of the break which is always an angle - still sometimes gouging the work.:mad:]

I think he used a plug saw of some sort - that doesn't mark the work - to cut the plug short  but still above the surface of the work.

The tip is to stick blue tape about 1/2" in on the bottom along both sides of the mouth on the low angle plane.
  He showed pieces maybe about 2 1/2" long.
Thereby raising the plane the thickness of the tape off the work, so that only the plug is engaged when moving the plane over the work.
The tape also covers the corners of the blade in the mouth so that if you press down unevenly, the corners won't gouge the surface.
Of course the woodwright's iron was obviously sharp and he had a  lite touch.

.....You know this trick, but maybe someone else didn't:D

Mike
 
Yes the plan is to leave the area aft of the galley as berths.  I will likely sleep on one of the quarter berths when I'm on the boat overnight.  They are longer than the v-berth.
 
Tony
 
I have always been a function first and then make the form as good as you can after function sort of guy.  So I take your comment of "clean and purposeful" as a complement that I have acheived my goal.
 
Ebb
 
The blue countertops are actually gray countertops covered in blue painter's tape to protect them during construction.  The tops are 1/4" thick corian.
 
I've been doing some plugging on the port coaming board already.  I searched through close to 1000 B.F. of lumber to find the two pieces I used for the coamings and one of these had some worm holes so I had to make them disappear.  When I take the boards back off and into the shop I will plug the screw holes and do the rest of the sanding etc. before I start applying finish.

Before I took off the coaming boards to finish up the work on them and put finish on them I wanted to make sure my winch risers would work correctly at the location I wanted to put them. Back when Pearson installed them originally (at a differant location than I chose) they cut the top of the coaming to be flush with the top of the riser and there were these long curves in the top of the coaming which I did not like.
 
I was quite suprised when the first riser landed perfectly on the side deck as you can see in the first picture below.
 
No such luck on the second riser though, when I installed it I had a 1/8" gap under the forward end and 3/8" gap under the aft end of it per the second picture below.
 
So I cut up 13 pieces of 1708 biax and alternated full length pieces with progressively shorter pieces as I laid it up on top of some visqueen on the deck. Then I bolted the riser to the coaming board which pressed it down into the glass and resin so it could cure. When it is hard I will grind the glass flush with the original base, do any fairing needed and they will both then fit perfectly after painting.

I still need to do a little fairing compound on the edge to make the seam completely disappear but I wanted to show how nice the glass took care of the gap.
 
I also need to do a repair to the right side on the top of the base that was broke prior to me buying Destiny. But the rest of the repairs can wait until I start mixing epoxy for something a little bigger than this work.

about quarter sawn mahogany is the ribbon stripped apearance.

Beautiful!

One particular modification that you have made, internal halyard masthead blocks, is one i am definitely interested. Once I get some headspace for this modification I will be in touch, most probably in April/may when I attack the mast and spars. One question that I did have; it would seem likely that the halyard could get caught over the top or to the side of the block, during squally weather which would most surely cut the halyard in quick order. Had you considered a SS 'chock' welded on and bridging the entryway for the halyard? I admit this could add leverage of a twisted halyard to bend the entire assembly causing more serious problems...

Quote from: carbonsoup;25384One particular modification that you have made, internal halyard masthead blocks, is one i am definitely interested. Once I get some headspace for this modification I will be in touch, most probably in April/may when I attack the mast and spars. One question that I did have; it would seem likely that the halyard could get caught over the top or to the side of the block, during squally weather which would most surely cut the halyard in quick order. Had you considered a SS 'chock' welded on and bridging the entryway for the halyard? I admit this could add leverage of a twisted halyard to bend the entire assembly causing more serious problems...

I don't think it is possible for the halyard to get hung up on the edge of the sheeve (where there is only approx. 1/16" of clearance on each side) or on the top because it is rounded and sloping down so I can't really see a need to do what you are suggesting (if I understand correctly).  Of course only time will tell for sure when she is getting used.

I have installed two of the halyard block set ups from Jerry's drawing on different boats. It is a great mod... Have not had any issues. One change I would consider how ever is to make the jib halyard block lower than the main. The reason is twofold; one is to increase clearance between the block and the furler's luff tube and if it is a couple inches lower it will eliminate the need for a halyard wrap preventer. Like I said it works well as is, but if I were to have another made I would lower the jib block.
Mike
C227

Hi Jerry, Thanks for your reply on A 157. Its not mine yet but should be soon. There is a commander here in OKC at the OCBC. I have always admired the boat. Only interested in an Ariel over the Commander because I would like to try a little offshore stuff with one. Your boat is nice. I've not seen one with primary and secondary winches but I'm kind of a newby when it comes to these boats.

Well, things have not been going as fast on Destiny as I was hoping for because my Mom passed away the end of January and I have had to spend a couple of weeks in Wisconsin first dealing with the funeral and then with the estate. In addition a lot of my time at home has been absorbed with issues associated with it all. But I have made some progress so I thought I would do an update.
 
First, when I bought Destiny the previous owner had hit a rock with her and tore up the bottom of the keel. So I took her to the local marina so they could lift her off the trailer and set her on stands which would allow me to work on the bottom of her keel. I ground out all the damage and glassed it back in. Then I layed up 4 more layers of 1708 biax along the entire length of the bottom of the keel as additional reinforcement. I faired that out and at the same time faired out some of the original irregularities in the side of the keel.
 
Getting Destiny off her trailer also allowed me to get the old rudder off so I could start my electric drive installation. I have her back home now and have rounded up the parts I will need for the new rudder and the electric drive. I have the new shaft log, prop shaft, cutlass bearing, stuffing box, and prop. The rest of the electric drive I bought a long time ago with the exception of the barreries. In addition I bought the marine bronze to make up the new rudder shaft and had it fabricated for the new rudder. The picture of the parts (laying on top of the old rudder) is below. The 3/8" rod was drilled, tapped and brazed into the 1" shaft.
 
I plan to follow Chance's method of building the rudder. I hope I can live up the the level of quality of fabrication he showed us.

Jerry,

Sorry to hear about the passing of your mother.  Balancing all of our obligations is an art that I know you excel at.  If it's only months or a few years until your boat's complete I'm sure it will have taken the right amount of time.

Ben

Thanks Ben
 
I appreciate your kind words.
 
I am trying very hard to get as much done as possible before the summer heat and humidity kicks back in again so I am racing against the clock.  I really really want Destiny in the water this fall when sailing season kicks off here in Florida.

Trying to get a handle on where to drill the hole for the shaft log. This is one side of the plywood that will sandwhich the J-bolts attached to the rudder shaft.

Nice work Jerry!  My only thought is that Constellation style rudder is more vulnerable than the original design.  During a low tide grounding that rudder will make a pivot point on the bottom and induce all sorts of stresses.  The original design was rounded off to prevent rudder damage when a sailboat is rocking it's keel in the mud, common in my parts.  I find it hard to believe adding that small addition to the bottom of the rudder helps the boat sail better.  Weather helm is controlled by sail trim.

Ben

Ben thanks for your critique. Getting help from you and the others here to avoid making a screwup is one of the best parts of a forum like this. You are not alone in your thoughts about how my new rudder should be shaped. A very good friend of mine had similar thoughts about how I should shape the new rudder. The pictures below are his thoughts on how to add a little rudder surface down low but still keep it from hitting bottom. What do you think of his design?
 
You know this is the first time I have ever done a boat restoration like this and it seems like I have been forced to do every major component twice. The first time I learn what I should have done and the second time I get it as close to right as I can.
 
Here in Florida all the water is skinny so keeping the rudder off the bottom is very important.

A place to check is a Cape Dory site.  
Might say that Alberg designed little ships with the smell of Marblehead salt water in his studio.
So he would no doubt have small boat sailors in mind.

CAPEDORY25D is imco pretty much his bringing the Ariel into the future.  I believe the boat is
from 1978.  This design, a slightly more matronly version of the Ariel is nearly the same weight,
length, and width as the Ariel.

He designed it with the constellation style rudder.  Which incidently appears in dashed lines on a lines drawing (Manual pg 144) of the Ariel.
 Document is not signed - it is dated:  November 1961  - from the same Carl A. Alberg studio in Marblehead.......  1961 ! !

I don't have any CapeDory lines to do closeup comparisons.
But Alberg, 15 years later, did draw his day sailor/racer CAPEDORY TYPHOON with the round trailing edge of wooden boat heritage.  I don't know if the daysailor's rudder is the more simple plank design.  
 Notable, but only looking at computer images, is that the bottom of the Typhoon rudder seems to be drawn   below the keel line.  Not rounded up as quickly as the A/C.  The rounded shapes are different.

It is often pointed out that when you ground on mud or sand with a keelhung rudder,  that an ear shape
design to the appendage might be more likely to be freed to help manuever the vessel - and protect the blade.
So depending on your cruising ground,  you can choose your rudder if, as Ben says, there is no discernable  difference in speed or maneuverablity.


 
 It evidently did make a difference to Olin on the 1964 Constellation (Sparkman/Stephens) when they first raced it out there.*
Given the dates, I'm assuming Olin called up Carl and asked him what he would do to get a 12meter to go faster.:D
By the numbers, it's obvious we must credit Carl with the invention of the constellation rudder.   But of course!

While the rounded rudder looks like a dragger on the '70's CapeDory Typhoon,  it looks like the straight bottom rudders on family CapeDories are canted UP slightly form the line of the keel bottom.  The trailing corner shows no rounding on CD's, while the dashed Ariel has considerable.

There is a lot of airfoil (lift) designing and experimentation  lavished on modern rudders.
I haven't visited CapeDory sites much - but I would assume the '70's rudders are a fiberglass composite   of some sort and are foiled.

I'm persuaded that streamlining the rudder into a constellation aspect at least on paper will
add something to the efficiency of the marvelous streamlining of the Ariel/Commander hull.  Who knows how much.?  
With similar blade area the foil shaped flat bottom constellation couldn't be less speedy than its predecessor.

I wonder, however, that the rudder surface being in effect LOWER with the constellation that
more control over the boat going downwind is experienced?
Arguement being that lower down there is less water turmoil created by water dragging along the hull.

Racers are minmalist.  Guess that water surface is right on the designer's edge.  A day racer interested in the fastest straight lines
might calculate what the designed surface areas of the two rudders are.
We have both to compare on the A/C - which is INCREDIBLY UNIQUE.
An over-the-shoulder view of Alberg at his drawing table!  Can SEE what he's thinking about with the two concepts.
 Use those figures as datum for calculating changes....... maybe add a little  more area for good measure.  Can always grind it off.
I'm thinking more area translates to a harder tiller.

Jerry's invention is very interesting and ORIGINAL (of course!).
And, why not?  Let's see what happens, right?
..................................................................................................................................................................................................
*Constellation was a S&S 12meter Rule (39.37ft) America'sCup defender in 1964.
TwelveMeters experienced radical design changes each time they raced, just as the America's Cup challengers today.

The rounded rudder shape morphed into  hard edge and hard cornered airfoil and never looked back!

I am all for experimentation Ebb, but I do think we should look at all innovation critically.   The Constellation's rudder was designed for better helm control downwind in a 12 meter.  And the straight bottom edge and crisp corners of the rudder helped reduce drag.  It was also intrinsically designed with the keel to archive it's performance breakthroughs.  I sort of think adding such a rudder to our boats is bending to fashion over practicality.  The Cape Dory rudders were an attempt to keep the Alberg boats contemporary in an era of detached rudders and fin keels.  Bet they sail windward not too different from our much older boats.

Well guys unless someone can tell me why it is a bad idea I think I will probably go with my friend Tom's suggestion since it is a compromise that allows me to add a little more rudder down low like I wanted to but also keeps the bottom of the rudder out of the mud which in Florida could be a real possibility.
 
Speak now or forever hold your peace since I don't want to build this thing 3 times.........twice is enough.

I would be alright with the revised design.  Although I'd like to see closer tolerances to the hull at the top of the rudder and a tighter radius on the back edge to bottom edge curve.

Ben

The skipper of the Constellation in the 1964 America's Cup was Robert N. Bavier Jr. who's father Robert Sr. was the second owner of the S-Boat Tern!

[video=youtube;G5z2A_j4iJk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5z2A_j4iJk[/video]

Ben,  Amazing find of the actual race!
Can't argue with you,  it's like how you like your coffee.
And coffee surely was the fashionable thing once before it became cultural.

So using the evidence at hand we find Alberg penning the yet to be fashionable un-named rudder onto the Ariel lines back in 1961,  at least two or three years before it appeared on the 12meter.

The A/C rudder of bronze and mahogany, as I see it, a holdover from good old wood boat hertitage......is a folk rudder.  It is intuitive, honed and perfected over time on countless vessels  by countless waterboat professionals.
Probably count on one hand how many builders in the old days water tank tested models of a working sailboat they built for a customer.
 And have to confess my bible once was/is Chapelle's Small Sailing Craft,  so at least I'm aware of your passion.

So here we have this fashionable new rudder sitting on an Alberg drawing of an Ariel/Commander in nineteen sixty-one.  
1961,  right at the cusp of Ariels and Commanders coming into existence.
 If you believe the provenance in Alberg's hand  then you have to ask why the round rudder was chosen?
I think the original A/C  rudder is a masterpiece of the dying art of wooden boat building.  We can argue these rudders outlast any fashionable frp/ss rudders that have appeared on countless watercraft since.  
Imco the Pearson cousins got a better deal on the traditional rudders,  I wouldn't be surprised to read they were farmed out to a woodworking boat shop that had been making rudders for 50years.....  you know.  I think it was a dollar choice made that didn't give us the hard edged rudders that needed to be developed more scientifically.  And did shortly there after.

Can't argue that airfoil shapes to the rudder surface is fashionable.  
BUT it is more like a Darwinian mutation because the change is way more efficient at moving a shape through water.  
It appears on stand-alone rudders, and probably had to be applied to keel hung rudders, by back thinking.  Since it is the slender half of a wingfoil on the end of a keel.  
And I'm certain that Alberg was aware of the changes happening in his field.   Full keels and internal ballast by the time A/Cs appeared were already going out of fashion - altho it took a decade or more for the wooden-boat-translated-to-plastic way of boat design moved wholly into recreational boats for the middle class.    Where I'll grant you:  fashion sleight of hand and hype went arm in arm to the bank.

Alberg's fame rested on safe, wholesome, fullkeel sailboats - and we know he was a genius and a tyrant for that style of blue water boats.   The board rudder was on its way out and what the speedos found out about rudder efficiency couldn't be denied.   In fact those advances were more to what Nature had already figured out since fish swam in the sea.

Here's a picture of a Sparkman and Steven rudder of the Constellation style from one of their ocean racers from the mid sixties.  You can glean some interesting details!    

(http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u72/Parlordoor/1780-magimagerudder_zpsdf13f429.jpg)

Pretty sharp.  ;)
....................................................................................................................................................................
Was going to leave it at that.
But keep coming back to looking at that amazing rudder blade.
It's a translation, imco, right out of the test tank.
We can see the curves on the surface, as if the foil had just been tuned by a craftsman.

The techies did tilt the bottom up so it wouldn't crunch on the hard.

Years ago, looking up  formulas for the foil, discovered that one shape rules them all.
One that all rudder shapers use.  Or are definitely aware of.   More or less.
A foil formula would work perfectly on a rectangular blade,  which they aren't hardly ever.  
 So the rudder shaper is right back with his bronze & mahogany buddies......
he has to shape by EYE.  Because the 'formula'  infinitely changes on an non-rectangle blade.

Imco, getting the 12meter ready to win, designers would constantly, up to the race, be twiddling with the rudder.
Because it is an unknown,  you have to work toward perfection - which we all  know is unattainable......but let's keep trying.

Believe ledgendary surfboard shapers haven't got no stinkun formula:  it's by eye. intuition, and feel.
Stick THAT in yor blinkin computer.

Do hold  that shaping a rudder is in the realm of art.  
Do hold that Alberg designed  a foil shaped underbody into the Ariel/Commander, including the leading edge bulb entry.
So having the rudder profile as a foil is your call.  It can be argued that board rudders with rounded trailing ends  sailed just fine for 50 years.  
On my composite constellate there will be a conservative 0012 aft foil profile leading to a fairly narrow blunt trailing edge with hard corners, no round.  
Also will fill out the vertical profile to just inside the width of the keel.   It's problematic but still the idea as to reduce drag and minimize eddys.  It's also a more stable and more natural profile.   One side of a board rudder is always cupped, imho.
Will stay within  the aft two thirds  of the NACA airfoil ordinates.  No bulge, a sort of pumped up straight line.
google Keel hung rudders? http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sailboats/keel-hung-rudders-22016.html

Unlikely, but if your BS1088Meranti cups at all, Cut the opposing shapes so that the cupped sides get glued together.  Might be kidding but don't think so!
.......................................................................................................................................................................
Art imitates Nature, and necessity is the mother of invention.   Richard Franck

Well, I had to buy another sheet of BS1088 plywood for the rudder because the new shape was bigger than I had material to make if from. So I decided this weekend to use the first half piece I had previously made to make a template for the new pieces when my plywood gets here. I got the top of the rudder a little too close to the bottom of the hull because I still need to wrap everything in many layers of fiberglass so I will need to cut that down some to make my template accurate.
 
The bottom of this template slopes uphill at 13 degrees in addition to the lowest point being 2" above the bottom of the keel. That should keep the bottom out of the mud.
 
The other thing I did this weekend was build a jig so I could install the wood rails that the motor will mount to. I made and installed the rails and now I need to glass them in. Pictures below.

Hey Jerry, sure looks good. One thing to remember when test fitting:
You need around a half inch gap between the hull and the top of the rudder so you can lift it high enough to get it into the shoe. You can just make a notch around the shaft and turn it to one side when installing. I made this mistak when I built my first Ensign rudder and had to hack into my masterpiece at the boat yard cause I was installing and launching at the same time. I could not test fit without lifting the boat from the trailer.
Mike
C227

That is a VERY good thing to point out. And if not for shear dumb luck I could have easily missed that point. But the previous owner had a new rudder built for Destiny and they did not do a good job of allowing for that. So when I finally was able to get Destiny on a lift and remove the old rudder it did not want to come off for that very reason. That fact made me quite aware of the issue so I allowed for it this go around. Here is a picture where I was test fitting the prop location where you can see much better the notch that did not show up well in the previous picture.
 
Also I found this article in Good Old Boat and used it to try and tweek the prop location. This is what I was able to work out which is as close as I could come to the ratios they recommend.

looking great!  your craftsmanship is a continual inspiration.  I have many questions, however today I have two, maybe three, as they coincide with my own rebuild on A97.  

1.  how have you calibrated the shaft alignment athwartship?  Since i deleted any existence of the previous engine mount i have little to align against.  The only thing is the cockpit bulkhead, a theoretical perpendicular, however the shaft does not actually exit the boat parallel to the centerline.  Or does it?  

2. three blade prop for electric conversion?  for regenerative efficiency?  what is the spec?  I was thinking of an Atomic4 prop (http://www.atomic4.com/propeller.html) seemed like a reasonable price for a three bladed prop that would fit our aperture.

and unrelated.

3.  I sent an PM about your masthead setup.  would your fabricator be interested in making another?  I ask, as it might be quicker and easier than trying to get my busy fabricator to sit down and make it happen.

ok, one more!

4.  I have spent days trying to get the Pearson Ariel cast aluminum mast base out of the bottom of the extrusion to no avail... the PO had snapped the screws (x4) off years ago so its on there.   Ive heated, smacked, chisled, used penetrants... but there is just no 'purchase' to pry or lever the base cap off, any suggestions?

I saw your post this morning but I am on my way out to see a customer in Orlando this morning and can't take time right now to give your questions the response they deserve.  Hopefully tonight I can.  In the meantime I did not get a PM from you. So you might want to try that again.

Carbonsoup
 
In response to your question #1.. I would not use a bulkhead installed in a Pearson boat from our era to align anything.  I can tell you none of the bulkheads in my boat were perpendicular to the fore and aft centerline.  They were as set buy the TLAR (that looks about right) method.  And yes the shaft should be dead on the boats centerline.  The way you have redone your boats interior would make it impossible to use the method I did (which is to streatch a mason's string tightly from the point of the bow to the point where the shaft exits the boat) to align the shaft on the centerline but you could probably figure out a suitable alternate method like determining the centerline of your cabin bulkhead and stretching a string line from there to the exit point of the shaft.
 
Question #2..  The reason I went with the prop I did (which is an 11 x 11) reasons.  First I determined the diameter that would best fit the aperature in the keel and rudder based on the ratios from that Good Old boat article I posted previously.  Then I worked closely with Scott McMillian from Electric Yacht to determine what would be the best pitch for the 2:1 reduction we were using for my electric motor and the output power it developed at the shaft.  
 
As far as regeneration I'm not holding a lot of hope for that even though my system will work that way.  And the 3-blade prop will do a better job for regeneration than a 2-blade one would do.  But from people that have done systems like this they don't feel they get a lot of benefit from it.
 
Question #3..  Yes the fabricator I used would be happy to make another mast head assembly.  Are you planning on following Mike's advise (C227) about lowering the forward sheeve on the assembly?  If so it would take a bit of time to rework the drawing.  I can help you get it ordered with the fabricator I used.  Shoot me an e-mail so we can discuss.  My e-mail address is gocarpen at tampabay dot rr dot com.
 
Question #4.. When I was removing my mast base I accidentally snapped off a couple of the screws also.  You will never get the base off if you don't completely drill out those screws.  When I did it I ended up with buggered up holes in the bottom of the mast that I had a welder plug at the same time he plugged all of the other no longer needed holes in the mast.  Once I got the broken screws out completely the base came off pretty easily.  Before that there was NO moving it.
 
Hope this helps.

This afternoon I got the motor shaft lined up with the prop shaft and connected the two. Everything appears to be where it belongs with the prop and everything else so now I can glass in the shaft log.

Now that I am getting near the end of the labor intensive work I am approaching the cost intensive portions of this restore. Today I will place the order for the new hardware which I have listed below with Rigging Only. I bought my standing rigging from them and they are VERY competitive in pricing and do what they say they will . Good people to work with. In addition to that $5,600.00 worth of hardware I am still looking at a $5,000.00 paint job, a $7,000.00 suite of new sails and $2,800.00 worth of batteries to power the electric inboard. And none of that includes any of the many more misc. items I will need before I finish. Sure am glad I do not intend to ever sell Destiny. And I hope the grandkids appreciate the boat they will have some day. :-)

Sounds like you've got your mind right... You'll never be able to sell it for more than half what you've got into it. And all your labor? HA!
You're building what you want for you. It's a labor of love all the way.
We're not alone in this however. I was at a car show and saw a T bucket for sale for $12,000. It was a work of art. He had over $30,000. Into it and every weekend for the last 5 years.

Thanks for posting this information Jerry.  I am in the market for a travelor and a few other items.  Your list has pointed me in the right direction regarding source and model numbers.  I had my bottom soda blasted a few weeks ago.  Hoping to sand, fill and sand some more this weekend and apply interlux 2000E next weekend, weather depending.

Have I said lately how much I dislike working with epoxy down in the bowels of Destiny??????????
 
I have only a few smallish projects left for epoxy work on the inside of the boat and I can't wait until that list reads zero. Especially since we have returned to full fledged summer weather here in Florida which means 95 degrees and 95% humidity. These are our cabin fever months.
 
Of the things I have accomplished since my last post, the one I enjoyed doing the most was building the new AC electric panel enclosure. Picture below.
 
Also I reinforced the bottom of the cockpit floor because it was so spongy even where the core is good. And while doing that I redid the rudder tube where it goes through the cockpit floor. The tube and the cockpit floor were not bonded at all prior to my reworking it. A picture of the cockpit floor reinforcement is below.
 
And then I glassed in the prop shaft log. I probably over killed that but I guess it's better than under killing it. ;-) Picture below.

wow. regarding rigging prices, i would seriously consider Garhauer marine hardware.  Im not trying be an internet ass, I am sure you have seen their stuff before however, I was at the Oakland boat show a couple years back when I was ogling other hardware and ran into the Garhauer booth and I was really impressed with the level of durability, fit and finish... I say this as I looked over your spreadsheet and saw some prices that made me wretch... for example, the low lead cars from Schaefer are 312 bux, yikes.  The low lead cars that I have been looking at from Garhauer are 100 for the pair and I prefer the solid SS look and feel of Garhauer over the plastic Harken stuff.  Now, I say this with the caveat that I am not racing, if that were the case I might reconsider as weight might make a difference...  but even then...  

Last fall, Garhauer had a sale and I bought a new main traveler (MT-2) for 200 bux.  I admit, the bling makes me smile, but I dont feel weird about it cuz I only spent 200, not 500, or more.

I can second the Garhauer post.  Take a look at their hardware:

http://garhauermarine.com/

They've got a 20% off sale going on some stuff until June 30.

Well guys while I appreciate your attemps to send me in a more cost effective direction at this point it is already too late for that.  The order has been placed and will ship to me on Tuesday.
 
As far as Garhauer goes I have to admit to not having a lot of experience with their hardware.  The pieces I have seen appeared to be very well built and strong.  They also appeared large for the application but that may have been someone specifying something that was the wrong part for the job.  I guess my lack of experience with Garhauer is why I did not consider their material when I was specing out the material for Destiny.
 
Harken on the other hand I have a lot of experience working with.  And I can't remember having a Harken product fail when it was properly sized for the application.  And while I am well aware that they cost more than some other brands the reliability is worth it to me.  And hey, I grew up in Wisconsin close to where their facility is.  We have similar roots :-)
 
I will see about getting a Garhauer full line catalog and give them more consideration for items I need going forward.

I have not placed the order on my sails as of yet so if you guys have some suggestions now would be the time to let me know.
 
I have attached a PDF of the specs I have put together for the sailmaker to price from. If you have suggestions please let me know.

We've had great luck & good prices with Hogin Sales in Alameda CA (they will ship).  Our top ODCA Ariel class boats used this loft.  If you contact them, ask if the Ariel Class discount is still available.

http://www.hoginsails.com/

Here in SF Bay we use a 110 during the summer and a 120 or 150 for the lighter winter breezes.  Check this thread on track placement as it's different for each sail:

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?283-jib-track-placement

Bill
 
Thank you for your reply.
 
I have sent an e-mail to Hogin Sails for an intial contact.  We will see what comes of it.
 
Also I appreciate the link for the track placement.  Tonight when I am too tired to keep working on the boat I will read through all of that.

My old employee Tim bought the sail loft from me before I left SYC.
He built the sails for C227, C157, C299, C256 & A... can't remember the#.
I'm sure he'd be happy to give you a bid.
Tim Carlson
Sail Crafters
952-693-6089
He just finished a beautiful Asym for C157 and is delivering my new Code Zero tomorrow. I can't wait.

Thanks Mike
 
I will give him a call to discuss it.
 
So I want to see pictures of you flying the code zero.  And I will be interested in hearing all about it also.  After the initial order of sails I will look for a light air sail also.

Forward one is held in with wing nuts and the back one where I should not need to access is just screwed in.

fyi, I bought a new main from Bacon Sails in Annapolis last summer.  I bought your exact specs from them except for the 'quick cringle' and the extra cunningham at the second reef.  They offered me a couple different 'builds', however, I selected the 'offshore' version which meant that it was triple stitched and a slightly heavier weight.  It was made in Hong Kong at the same factory that makes Hood sails.  Out the door, it was 1380 total, no shipping as I picked it up.

Matt
 
So far the only pricing I have gotten back is from my local Doyle loft.  They price things two ways.  If they build it locally and do all of the measuring and then check the fit of the sail after it is made the cost for the main is $1,475.00.  If I do all of the measuring and they design the sail here and then have a loft in China build it with the same materials that they would use here the cost is $1.195.00.
 
The total cost for all three sails built locally from the Doyle loft is $3,715.00 or built in China the total cost is $3,235.00.  Or, $480.00 differance for them to drive up to me (an hour and 15 minutes one way) and do the measuring and then again to check the fit afterwards.  I felt like their pricing was reasonable either way.  We will see what the other two people have to say.

I have been busy working on Destiny as much as possible.  I glassed in some plywood under the deck and cockpit where I will be running wires for all of my electrical.  After all that was in place I started painting the remaining areas inside the boat before I start the electrical installation.  That is until I ran out of paint and had to order some more.  This old hull is sucking up paint like a sponge.
 
I also finished all of the dividers that will keep things from falling into the keel and got them painted.
 
When I got my new hardware in I decided I was very pleased that the folks at Rigging Only talked me into the stainless Anderson winches.  There is a picture of one of them below.  They appear VERY solidly built and will fit my winch risers quite well.  The new hole pattern is however slightly larger than the old one so the second picture below is of the repair I'm doing to the risers.  I filled the old holes with thickened epoxy and then glassed over the top and underside with a layer of 1708.  I made backer blocks and covered them with cellophane tape so they would not stick to the epoxy.  Then I clamped the risers to the top of my bench to let the epoxy cure.  I will sand and fair out the tops before they get painted.
 
This morning I finished making a louver that will go in the hole where the outboard tiller handle used to extend into the cockpit from the lazarette.  I plan to stow fenders, dock lines extra PFDs etc. there and I wanted ventilation to keep the mold away so I decided on a louver.  I put the first coat of Cetol on it also.  A picture is below.

One of the projects I have been avoiding for a long time is removing the added 500 Lb. lead pig in Destiny's keel which will be replaced with 4 - 132 Lb. batteries that will power the new electric drive.  So 528 Lbs. will go back in.

I first tried Mike's (C227) method of cutting the lead down the center but I was not getting anywhere fast that way.  So since I always planned on putting a new teak and holly floor in I decided I would just open up the floor and lift it out intact.  

Having a 2-1/2 acre lot with literally thousands of trees on it I have gotten to know my tree removal guy pretty well.  And since he was in the neighborhood cutting down trees for a neighbor I called him up and asked him if he had his tractor with him.  He did and so I asked him to bring it over and help me lift the lead out.

Now I am starting to put the floor back together with white oak structural supports to help carry the load of the new batteries and tie the floor back together again.

looks like pulling the pig is about like pulling the engine... except the atomic4 had a whole mess of extra crap attached to it!

And they did a REALLY nice job.  If you need some plating done I would recommend these folks.

http://spacecoast-plating.com/index.php?route=information/contact

There is one before picture (the last one) and two after.

Exceeding gorgeous!
Beyond bling!
Compliments (like HUMM-M--M-?) your beautiful work!:cool:

Ebb

That is exactly how I felt when I saw the job they did.  

And thanks for the compliment.

Well I spent about 8 hours this weekend first making a template then making the piece of teak and holly floor for the boat.  And I'm not so sure I like the way it is going to look.

So far all I have invested is the cost of the sheet of teak and holly and my time.  But if I decide to go forward with it I need to spend a lot more time finishing the flooring and then gluing it down after which point it will not be coming up again.

If I put the finish on this floor it will get somewhat darker but even then I don't know if I like the look.  I'm giving serious consideration to abandoning the teak and holly and going with a mahogany floor to match all of the other woodwork.

What do you guys think?

Looks nice Jerry, but it makes me dizzy looking at it. I like the idea of matching wood. Matching wood would seem more period correct. You have made wonderful progress on this Commander,

As always, your workmanship is admirable!  
 
I love my teak and holly sole.  I say keep it.  After an Epifanes treatment... or 10, I think it looks richer and matches better.  (with little ones, the steps are a necessity on Lucky Dawg.)
 

So far the responses have been three forths in favor of keeping the teak and holly floor.  And of those responses My oldest daughter (the one in the family with the design eye) said keep the teak and holly.  My good friend Tom who's opinion I always listen closely to said keep the teak and holly.  My other good friend John also said keep the teak and holly. Tim one of my closest friends said he also likes the teak and holly.  As shown below Kyle is also in agreement that the teak and holly should stay.  And probably the most important my wife the admiral said "it looks fine keep it".

Dissenting views were Carl who believes the mahogany would be more historically correct and my youngest daughter Jennifer who just agreed with her dad.

So since I still have massive amounts of work to do before I finish this project and my goal is to get her in the water this November (knowing full well a lot of things will not be done yet but she will be sailable) I am keeping the teak and holly.  

My next major goal is to get the exterior faired, sanded, primed, sanded, faired, sanded, primed, sanded and down to the painter the end of the month.  Hope I can pull it off because he wants 2 weeks to paint her and that only leaves me 6 weeks to put her back together and make all of the parts that have not been made yet and paint the mast and boom and assemble all of that along with replacing the standing rigging which has to be cut to length and the bottom mechanical fittings installed and of course install all of the hardware, have the sails made and and, and, and what the heck am I doing sitting here typing when I should be out there working??????????  After all it is only 10:10 PM I have hours left before I go to bed.................

Oh yea, while I have been doing all of this work the admiral has also been busy.  She has made me new v-birth cushions, quarter birth cushions and cockpit cushions.  There are some photos below.  She also has a lot of work to complete before launch time but she is a trooper and will make it happen.  My lifetime partner is at least as hard a worker as I am. :-)

Jerry, I know you haven't asked YET but yeah, keep your lifetime partner and the cushions........ OK, and the T&H sole

Being veneer I think the ply has to be sealed - on all eight sides.
Unsealed, the wood will stain and walking will cause wear tracks.
Not knowing what the inside veneers are: they might start to delam or rot.
One way is to seal with thinned epoxy and varnish using a fine product like Epifanes.

But I have had great results using LE TONKINOIS - Vernis #1.
American Rope & Tar -  //www.tarsmell.com/
It is a tung and linseed oil varnish that goes on like any regular varnish
yet has NO volitile solvents, no petro-chems.  While there's an old time linseed odor, it's not going to irritate eyes, nose, throat or lungs.

It doesn't need stirring.  Never needs thinning (no solvents to leave & thicken the brew).  If it skins, remove, and start coating.
Seal the ply on all sides with Le Tonk.  The first coat soaks in the top veneer and the secondary veneers on the cut edges.

It's just as shiney as Epi...... I cannot see the difference between the two...... after 8 coats.
It will stick to anything except wax.   (Sticks to froufrou Epifanes.)
If you must have matt or satin mix with Gelomat.
But boat shoes will not slip on gloss LeTonkinois like modern varishes, even when it's wet.  I have not tested this ! !

That would also go for some of those modern skinny matts with mini suction cup bottoms.
If you barefoot around the cabin.

Recoating can be done by the usual sanding with 180
but put on enough first coats so you don't sand through.

It is going to look like a grand piano:cool:
................................................................................................................................................................................................
This is a guess: System 3's  clear WRLPU (water reducible) urethane might work as a sealer (altho it's formulated for non-porus surfaces)
and also might not darken the teak like the amber tone of oil varnishes.  Coats don't build up fast - and the stuff gets very hard.  Might have to de-oil the teak with acetone?  Call their tech line.  But then, when refreshening time comes,  nothing will stick to that coating except more LPU.
.................................................................................................................................................................................................
emailed Tech help at System 3, he says, First use their ClearCoat no blush epoxy to seal all sides of teak ply sole....then go with WRLPU clear.
Says it's the best protection a teak and holly cabin sole can have.  Don't know about skidding.  But Babe Lamerdine once told me he mixed a
little pumice into his varnish when it called for anti-slip.

Ebb

The LE TONKINOIS - Vernis #1 looks like some pretty impressive stuff.  But I already have plenty of epoxy and Epi. to do this job and now that I have imposed a deadline on myself I have little to no time to spare.  So I will probably go that route.  But I appreciate the information on the LE TONKINOIS - Vernis #1 and will look into that much more sometime down the road.

Quote from: carl291;25946Jerry, I know you haven't asked YET but yeah, keep your lifetime partner and the cushions........ OK, and the T&H sole

Carl

I have been married to Lorraine for almost 41 years so I would find it very difficult to live without her anymore.  Probably the reason I did not even think to ask that question. :-)

Last night I coated both sides and all of the edges in epoxy for all 4 parts of the new teak and holly floor.

Tonight I sanded the top smooth and put the first coat of Epifanes on it and what a difference.  Take a look...........

The picture with the narrow strips is of the parts that hold the quarter berth cushions in place.

You may notice my "bed of nails" that the pieces are laying on.  They allow me to put a coat of finish on both sides of a part at the same time.  The back gets coated first then laid on the nails and the front gets coated.  Cuts finishing time in half.

And I'm finally getting some time I can work on Destiny again and I thought I would post an update.

I have been working on 3 fronts for what ever little time I have had here is what has been going on.

First I got all 9 coats of finish on the new teak and holly floor and got it installed.  And because the floor finally went in I was also finally able to install the bentwood edges for the two new bulkheads I installed to support the mast beam.  There are 2 pictures of this work below.

Next I have been making progress on the new rudder.  Since my new rudder is two parts like the original was I needed a way to keep them straight when I epoxied them into the first half of the new rudder.  So I clamped a 2 x straight edge to the edge of my workbench and marked where the 3/8" rods would be imbedded in the plywood.  Then I routed a round bottom cove 3/16" deep into the plywood where each rod would go.  I drilled small holes in 2 places on both sides of each rod and fed wire up from the other side so after I put thickened epoxy in the cove cuts and laid the rods in them I could pull them down snugly into the coves until the epoxy set up.  Then I cut the wires and pulled them out before I glued the second half of the rudder to the first one.  I hope the pictures below help to make this clearer than my attempt to describe it is doing.

And finally I have been working on the last of the recore projects.  I thought I was done with that before but found that I had a spongy deck around the rudder post and found more rotted balsa core.  So I am finishing that up now.  Since it will only let me add 5 pictures per post I will follow up with those pictures in the next post.

Pictures below.

And some of you probably think I have given up on my commander restoration project.  That is not the case, I just have not taken the time to post about her progress.


So after I finished the recore in the cockpit floor I had to fair that area out.  And while I was working on that I went over the entire boat fairing everything that needed it in preparation for the primer.  


When I was convinced I had it all I started priming the hull and deck with Awlgrip 545.  That's when I found out I did not have it all.  I found a lot of small issues when I primed her that I fixed as I worked on the primer.


The first couple picture below is after the primer went on.


On the hull I was able to only primer her once and sand it smooth.  The deck was another story.  I had to prime her sand her and prime her again and sand yet another time.  


The last three pictures are of her being painted.  I found a guy in Tarpon Springs to spray her with Awlcraft.

ALL RIGHT!!! Fantastic Jerry!All you have left is the fun stuff. The grind is over! (Oh yeah, I mean after the bottom)
She looks fantastic, whatcha using for non-skid?

Can't wait to see her all finished. Exceptional and inspiring Jerry!

Quote from: Commander227;26624She looks fantastic, whatcha using for non-skid?

 
Funny you should ask Mike. I spent a LONG day yesterday working on just that!  All I have done so far is the companion way hatch, the hatch over the v-berth and the cabin roof.  Take a look and see what you think. It's Kiwigrip.


BTW Mike I no longer have your e-mail address could you please shoot me a line via e-mail?  I have a really good friend who I sail with often and he wants to come see your commander.

Quote from: mbd;26625Can't wait to see her all finished. Exceptional and inspiring Jerry!

Thanks Mike.  


I still have a LOT to do but like Mike M (227) said it is the fun stuff.  Our sailing season kicks off the first of Nov. and that is my goal to splash her.  Florida's summer is really hot and miserable so it takes drive to just get out in the heat to work.  But now I'm to the point where I can almost taste sailing on her so I will be out there sweating a LOT.


The other thing I worked on yesterday (in addition to non-skid) was one of the port lites.  I have a Tormek grinder for my woodworking tools and it has a leather wheel on it.  Here is a picture of before and after polishing it up with that wheel.

Beautyful, Jerry.  She is living up to her name.:cool:

Thanks ebb!

Non skid looks good Jerry! Ceili has Kiwigrip too, seems to be holding up well (although it's only been a couple years) I'm a fan. Now you need one of those grand kids to spend a week with grandpa holding the screwdriver topsides while you practice yoga down below with your mouth full of nuts and washers. You got a lot of fancy dodads to bolt on.
I'd love to take your friend out, ill PM you my email.

Jerry, that's fantastic work. You and Ebb really set the bar high man.

Quote from: Commander227;26655Non skid looks good Jerry! Ceili has Kiwigrip too, seems to be holding up well (although it's only been a couple years) I'm a fan. Now you need one of those grand kids to spend a week with grandpa holding the screwdriver topsides while you practice yoga down below with your mouth full of nuts and washers. You got a lot of fancy dodads to bolt on.
I'd love to take your friend out, ill PM you my email.

That sounds like an excellent idea about the grandson, I think I will make that one happen!  


One of the things I like about the Kiwigrip is the ease in which you can redo it.  So even if it only lasts 4 or 5 years it is really easy to upgrade again.

Quote from: paulsproesser;26662Jerry, that's fantastic work. You and Ebb really set the bar high man.

Thank you for the complement.  I try really hard to do a good job and sometimes it shows and people appreciating it makes it worth the effort!

I try to spend as much time as I can working on Destiny but my personal curse is that I refuse to do any part of her that is less than the best I can do.  So everything takes large blocks of time and I am letting other areas of my life fall behind in an effort to keep Destiny moving forward.  I really want to splash her this fall and it will take a concentrated push to make that happen.


Here is a good example of what I am talking about.  The hours I spent to get the bow deck (not the side deck just the bow) to the point shown in this picture added up to 18 hours.  The bulk of the time was spent working with the bow pulpit.  It did not sit right on the deck even when I bought Destiny.  The aft end of it curved too much which caused the bases to not sit flat on the deck.  They were a full 1/4" or more off the deck on the front portion of the base with the aft portion of the base on the deck.


So after screwing with it for over an hour proving to myself I was not going to make it sit correctly unless I changed the shape of the SS pipe on the aft end I drove an hour to my son-in-laws house to get his hydraulic pipe bender and another hour back home to work on it.  It took lots of very small bends to straighten the back end some without making an obvious bend the would show for all time and irritate me every time I looked at it.


And the other large time consumer was masking for the non-skid and sanding inside the tape to prep for it.  All the radiuses both inside and out take a lot of time to get right.


At any rate here are a couple more pictures of the progress.

Looks beautiful, Jerry.  keep up the good work.  I've been picking away on C3 while using it as much as I can.  

Fritz

Looking good, Jerry! I can't wait to see Destiny splashed. What are your plans for the outboard well?

Quote from: Fritz;26731Looks beautiful, Jerry.  keep up the good work.  I've been picking away on C3 while using it as much as I can.  

Fritz

In some ways Fritz I envy you.  I like that I am getting everything done right in one fell swoop so that after I splash her it will be only maintenance to look forward to (and plenty of that since I live in Florida and have all this mahogany to care for) but, I would really like to be sailing her now.  The only saving grace is that summer is the worst part of sailing season in Florida and come Nov. when I am pushing really hard to splash her the real season starts.


But in the end you are sailing now and I only get to sail on friends boats.  So keep doing what you are doing!

Quote from: mbd;26734Looking good, Jerry! I can't wait to see Destiny splashed. What are your plans for the outboard well?

Mike I thought long and hard about the outboard well.  In the end I decided it was better to not limit options.  So I decided to keep the outboard well available as an outboard well and I installed the plug and put a bead of 5200 around the perimeter of it.  If I decide sometime down the road to do some long distance cruising and I'm worried about not having electricity to recharge the batteries I can bring along the Tahatsu 5HP motor I have.  In my mind options are good and limiting them not so much.

I had previously installed the genoa track and the jib track only with a few bolts because I did not have the right stuff.  I received the fasteners from my vendor (Bolt Depot) during the week so I did the final installation of those tracks this weekend.


Along with that I installed the rub rail on the starboard side.  I have scaffold set up on the starboard side so everything I have done for the last 3 weeks has been only on that side.  I have one more port lite to install and then it will be time to move the scaffold to the other side and start all the same jobs all over again.


latest pics.............

Love the end caps on the rub rail. Have the Eagle moulding "in stock" in my garage, but couldn't wrap my head around how to terminate it cleanly.  Ended up installing the rub rail without the moulding.  At your convenience, could you ID your source/part?  That nice white dress will stay cool in the FL sunshine. :cool:

Dang, just when I was convinced a faux hemp rope was the way to go...:D

Quote from: Lucky Dawg;26755Love the end caps on the rub rail. Have the Eagle moulding "in stock" in my garage, but couldn't wrap my head around how to terminate it cleanly.  Ended up installing the rub rail without the moulding.  At your convenience, could you ID your source/part?  That nice white dress will stay cool in the FL sunshine. :cool:

Kyle


Here is the link to West (worst) Marine where you can get them.


http://www.westmarine.com/buy/taco--rounded-stainless-steel-rubrail-end-cap--10724862

Hey Jerry, how are things coming along?  Looking forward to all the glory pics of Destiny out sailing!

Hi Mike


Well, I just keep working away whenever I can eek out a little time.  The last two weekends I was not able to devote to the boat.  This last weekend I was forced to do yard work that I had been putting off for some time trying to make progress on Destiny.  We have 2-1/2 acres and you can only ignore it for so long.


The previous weekend I was up in Wisconsin for my Nieces wedding.


But even so, here is a list of what I have done since my last post and a few pics to show the progress.


1.)  I installed the port side rub rail.


2.)  I got the port side deck non-skid done and installed hardware including the chain plates, jib track, genoa track, folding pad eyes that will be used for the mast raising system, LED nav. lights and cleats and chock.


3.)  I polished all of the window frames, made new Lexan windows for them and got them all installed.


4.)  I got with the vinyl graphics people in town and picked out the font and then had them make the name up for me so I could install Destiny's name on the transom.


5.)  I designed and had my local sheet metal shop make brackets for the new turning blocks.  The 155 genoa will sheet only about a foot away from the winch so I need turning blocks to make a fair lead to the winches.  And they take a lot of stress because you double the load when you turn a line 360 degrees.  The bracket will bolt to the combing board and the deck approximately where it is shown in the picture below.


6.)  I finally got the lazarette repaired and painted.  I am using Imron paint a 2 part polyurethane paint that is color matched to the deck.  It should take some abuse and hold up pretty well.  While painting the lazarette I also painted the inside to the lazarette hatch and the underside of the two cockpit seat hatches with the same paint.

She's really coming together nicely. That coaming is freakin' gorgeous Jerry!  I'm sorry if you've talked about it before, but jeeze, it looks like a piece of fine furniture!  Really beautiful!  Got any "how you made 'em" pics? What are they?

Holy Moley!  For someone with limited work time, you're pretty dang productive!  Cheers. Nice work.  Destiny looks brand new.  That's a $100k yacht you're about to splash!

Quote from: mbd;26813She's really coming together nicely. That coaming is freakin' gorgeous Jerry!  I'm sorry if you've talked about it before, but jeeze, it looks like a piece of fine furniture!  Really beautiful!  Got any "how you made 'em" pics? What are they?

Mike


I actually went to a lot of effort to get the coamings right.  They are Honduras mahogany which is getting much more difficult to find and what you do find is just not that good.  I'm lucky in that I have a friend that owns a large millwork operation who allows me to purchase lumber through his wholesale distributor.  But I had to drive an hour and a half to get to his supplier where I looked through 500 board feet of lumber to find the two boards that were long and wide enough and quarter sawn.  There were a lot of boards big enough but they were flat sawn and ugly and likely to be unstable in a wet environment.  


The returns where the boards tie into the cabin sides are made from another piece of Honduras mahogany that was also quarter sawn and 8/4 (2 inches) thick.  The quarter sawn mahogany will often get the ribbon stripping that the returns show.  I actually bought that piece of lumber from out of state because I could not find it in Florida.  And I spent the better part of a full weekend doing nothing but shaping and fitting the two returns.


Bottom line is Mike all it comes down to is time and money.  And I have invested a lot of both in Destiny.   :-)

Quote from: Lucky Dawg;26814Holy Moley!  For someone with limited work time, you're pretty dang productive!  Cheers. Nice work.  Destiny looks brand new.  That's a $100k yacht you're about to splash!

Thanks Kyle


The way I look at it if I was going to buy a new boat that is equal to what Destiny will be when I am done I would actually have to pay more than 100K.  At least that is what I tell myself to justify the money I am spending on her!

Thanks Jerry.  It looks like you "capped" where it connects to the cabin trunk too.  It's a nice finished look and give some protection to the end grain on the attachment piece - whatever that would be called.  The Sea Sprite 23 had those caps and I thought they'd look really nice with all wood coamings - now I know - at least when YOU do it.  Seriously - so beautifully done! And the coamings are so a featured on these boats too. Wow....

Quote from: mbd;26817Thanks Jerry.  It looks like you "capped" where it connects to the cabin trunk too.  It's a nice finished look and give some protection to the end grain on the attachment piece - whatever that would be called.  The Sea Sprite 23 had those caps and I thought they'd look really nice with all wood coamings - now I know - at least when YOU do it.  Seriously - so beautifully done! And the coamings are so a featured on these boats too. Wow....

Actually Mike the returns are not capped and when I went back and looked at the picture I could see why you would think they were.  They appear capped because I rounded over the top edges with a round over bit in the router.  And the end grain appears darker than the face grain of the wood.  The problem with capping something like this is that wood expands and shrinks at different rates based on it's orientation.  The cap that would be on top would not expand or contract hardly at all in it's length. But the wood under it will expand at a much larger percentage than the cap on top.  I did a quick search online and found what appears to be a good article about wood expansion and contraction as it takes on and gives off moisture content.  Take a look here.  You will see a picture that shows wood only expands and contract 1% in length but 8% tangentially.


http://workshopcompanion.com/KnowHow/Design/Nature_of_Wood/2_Wood_Movement/2_Wood_Movement.htm

Hmmm... thanks for setting me straight. How did/will you seal that work of art?

Quote from: mbd;26819Hmmm... thanks for setting me straight. How did/will you seal that work of art?

In any state that is always a challenge but here in Florida it is even more so.  I am using 4 coats of Cetol natural teak as a base and two coats of clear Cetol over the top.  The picture does not show the finished product yet because it isn't.  There are only 2 coats of natural teak finish on so far.  And while some of the other Cetol products would do a better job of protecting, they muddy up the appearance so much you can't hardly tell what the wood looks like under it.  In the Florida sun Cetol holds up significantly better than varnish possibly can so even the lower level of protection with the "natural teak" version is better than varnish.  In addition my wife is making a full cover for Destiny for me.  So when I am not sailing her she will always be under cover.


Everything about life is a compromise.  I am a big fan of wood so I am willing to spend a lot more time in the off sailing season maintaining the finish on Destiny's wood parts.  And the key is good maintenance.

So I'm getting a lot closer to actually splashing Destiny and I get really frustrated some times because I can't just work on her non-stop because I have to work for a living also, dang it......


Anyway here are a few current pics.


BTW, the wire you can see laying on the side deck is part of the mast raising system I will be using.  I will document that here once I start using it.


The mast is also ready to go back on the boat.  I'll follow this post with a couple mast pictures.

An overview, and the top and bottom of the mast.

Hey Jerry,
Ordering some screws from Bolt Depot.  

Quick question - Did you use 1" or 1/ 1/4" #6 screws for your rub rail?  1 1/4" seems long!  Without the moulding, I had 3/4" - which put them 1/2" into the fiberglass.  9/16" (moulding + stainless) + 1/2" lies between the two!  
 
I'm only obsessing on it because the rail with moulding setup in your pix appears to sit a bit below where my old rail sat (right on the hull-deck joint) and I want them poking as little as possible through into the cabin.  
KW

Quote from: Lucky Dawg;26929Hey Jerry,
Ordering some screws from Bolt Depot.  

Quick question - Did you use 1" or 1/ 1/4" #6 screws for your rub rail?  1 1/4" seems long!  Without the moulding, I had 3/4" - which put them 1/2" into the fiberglass.  9/16" (moulding + stainless) + 1/2" lies between the two!  
 
I'm only obsessing on it because the rail with moulding setup in your pix appears to sit a bit below where my old rail sat (right on the hull-deck joint) and I want them poking as little as possible through into the cabin.  
KW

 Kyle


As far as placement on my rub rail I wanted the top of the rail a consistent distance from the top of the toe rail so I took a roll of 3/4" masking tape and put a continuous piece in the area where the rub rail would go so that the top of the masking tape was lined up with the top of the toe rail.  Then I lined up the top of the rub rail with the bottom of the masking tape.  In some cases this put the centerline of the rub rail right on the hull deck joint and in other places not so much.  But to my minds eye it was pleasing.


As far as the screws I used 1-1/4" screws but in the cabin area if you remember I filled the toe rail with polyester filler and then glassed over it.  So the screws do not show up inside the cabin area at all.  Towards the back of the boat where I did not do that (aft of the genoa track area) the screws stuck out inside the boat 1/8" to 3/16".  Which for me was about perfect.


Something else about the way I installed the rub rail.  At each screw location first I would drill a pilot hole for the screw.  Then I would drill a clearance hole through only the rub rail that would allow the screw to slide easily through it.  Then I would pump 5200 into the clearance hole (not easy and hard on the hand squeezing the caulking gun) to fill the void behind the rub rail.  Then I would run the screw in and when it tightened up the 5200 would completely seal the area and provide backing to the rail.  If you follow this method you will want to put masking tape below the rail as well as above because you will get squeeze out of the 5200 and the tape will make clean up easy.


Hope this helps Kyle and good luck with your installation.

Jerry, you've really got really knack for the finer details: the trim pieces along the cockpit seat, the grate in the after part of the cockpit - even the sliding rails on your hatch - really accent those beautiful coamings. You're probably getting tired of hearing it - but you really really do absolutely beautiful work! Thanks for sharing it with us.

I'm with you Mike.  Serious "WOW" factor.  Jerry, I want to see your masterful take on the teak cockpit sole as the pièce de résistance for this brand-new-old gal!

Thanks for the info on installing rubrail.  I toyed with using the predrilled Eagle moulding 12" oc holes (with the same 5200 process you describ) to install the rail -  therefore with half as many screw holes through the topsides - and then screwing the6" oc stainless rubrail just to the moulding.  Thoughts?

Quote from: Lucky Dawg;26938I'm with you Mike.  Serious "WOW" factor.  Jerry, I want to see your masterful take on the teak cockpit sole as the pièce de résistance for this brand-new-old gal!

Thanks for the info on installing rubrail.  I toyed with using the predrilled Eagle moulding 12" oc holes (with the same 5200 process you describ) to install the rail -  therefore with half as many screw holes through the topsides - and then screwing the6" oc stainless rubrail just to the moulding.  Thoughts?

Dang, I forgot until you asked this question that I had done exactly that (at least to a point)!  I attached the vinyl molding first and then the S.S. rub rail afterwards and I used a 5/8" long screw to attach the S.S. rub rail to the vinyl with the following exceptions.  At both ends and at a maximum of 3' apart I ran screws through the S.S. rail and all the way into the fiberglass.  I found some of the holes in the S.S. rub rail landed directly on top of the screws for the vinyl so at those locations I used the same screw for both.  So at all of the ends of the S.S. rub rail, and where ever screws landed on top of each other and, a maximum of 3' apart I had screws that went through both the stainless and the vinyl all the way into the fiberglass.  Sorry I forgot to mention that in my previous post.

Quote from: mbd;26936Jerry, you've really got really knack for the finer details: the trim pieces along the cockpit seat, the grate in the after part of the cockpit - even the sliding rails on your hatch - really accent those beautiful coamings. You're probably getting tired of hearing it - but you really really do absolutely beautiful work! Thanks for sharing it with us.

I really do appreciate the comments a lot.  As long as this project has taken me it is comments like that that keep me going and never giving up.  Thanks for your kind words.

Since I am not putting the stern pulpit back on Destiny I though a long time about how to support the mast for travel.  This afternoon I built a support at the back end of the cockpit and another at the mast step to do just that.  I was able to tie the back support off to 4 cleats (two stern cleats and two mid-ships cleats that mount to the genoa track.


Because the forward mast support is part of the trailer and because the boat can get a little out of perfect alignment when going on the trailer the center support had to allow for the misalignment.  So it is a support only.  You can see the way the boat is on the trailer right now the string line does not land right in the middle of the center support.


I'm trying to get the mast back on the boat (at least temporarily) so I can finish up the new standing rigging and measure for new sails.  


One of these days I'm going to actually sail this boat!

Did you know that according to Wikipedia the correct spelling for a boats traveller requires 2 L's?  All these years I have been spelling it incorrectly.


So anyway I got a small amount of time I could spend on Destiny today and I finished the traveller installation.

What's the launch date, Man?  Can't wait to see Destiny fulfill her destiny!

Quote from: Lucky Dawg;26954What's the launch date, Man?  Can't wait to see Destiny fulfill her destiny!

ASAP.  In the beginning and for most of the time I have been working on her I have answered that question with "when she is done".  Then a few months back I started saying I wanted to launch in Nov. but a combination of things kept me from working on her which included a couple of 4 day stays in the hospital with diverticulitis.  So now I just work on her when ever I can and try my best to get her back in the water.  As you will see as I post them I still have some significant projects to complete.  So....... ASAP!  But in my mind I sail her every time I work on her.

Stepped the mast this weekend so we could adjust the old shrouds, mark them and then use them for the pin to pin dimensions to make the new ones.  I already have the new material here with swaged fittings for the top and mechanical fittings for the bottom and all of the shrouds were left long so once I got to this stage I could measure and make them up. So for the standing rigging it is finally show time!


You will notice the boom is installed close to the bottom of the mast.  I designed the vang attachments to the same size as the gooseneck so that when I was lifting the mast I could put the boom closer to the bottom of the mast to make the baby stays work correctly.


Oh and a special thanks to my good friend Tom Scott who drove just over 2 hours each way to spend the day and help me with this process!  Friends like that are hard to come by but I am lucky enough to have two of them.  My other friend Tim who lives in Iowa but visits Florida frequently comes her to help also.

You guys make it look S O O O easy!

Quote from: ebb;26963You guys make it look S O O O easy!

Making up the bridles and baby stays to keep everything in alignment while it was coming up.  That and getting the mast on the boat.  We pulled the boat out of the shelter, hoisted the mast up to the peak of the shelter with the mainsheet and vang hardware and then backed the boat under the mast and lowered it onto the boat.

Hey Jerry,
I was in your neck of the woods for spring break!  Fantastic break from Michigan winter.  We were staying with friends in Bradenton / Anna Maria.  Stink-boated out to Passage Key - looked like like we'd made a quick trip to the Bahamas!
   
Also paddled down the Peace River in Arcadia.  My son and I found a bunch of fossil shark teeth / etc including a half a megaloadon tooth!  (16 million year old Great White predecessor)  

I'd could move down that way in a heartbeat!  
KW

It really is easy to get spoiled down here.  You were not to far from one of my favorite sailing areas which is Charlotte Harbor.  The Peace river that you paddled down dumps into Charlotte Harbor before heading into the gulf.


Sounds like you had a good time.  I wish I had known you were coming we could have hooked up for a day of sailing.  Destiny is very close to splashing now but I also have access to a Tartan 3000 that is in Charlotte Harbor that we could have gone out sailing on.


As far as Destiny goes, I have the electric aux drive fully functional now.  I am planning on finishing the electrical wiring today.  I had to start from scratch and completely wire the boat.  That took longer than I wanted it to.  Soon I will be hauling her back to a local marina where they can lift her off the trailer so I can install the new rudder, prop shaft and prop.  Then I will get the bottom job done while I'm at the marina also and it will be splash time!


Before I can do that though I have to stand the mast here again.  I have all the new shrouds installed on the mast now and when I get the mast up this time the sail maker is coming back to take one more dimension for the working jib.  The new main and genoa are already made.  Also while I have the mast up my wife is going to measure for the new boat cover and mainsail cover she will be making.

Hey Jerry,
No offense!  We had a packed week and a gaggle of kids in tow for our visit.  I thought of you, but it wasn't really feasible to make contact.  Would have loved to have seen your badass work on Destiny.  We had a great visit and will be back in the coming years.  Another time, for sure.

Great work and great progress.  I continue to be impressed / humbled.  I understand the irritation of the "when will you launch?" question, but I am also so eager to see you splash and for you to enjoy the (huge) fruits of your (huge) labor!

Please keep posting update pix!  You've done a ton since the last pix!

So all of the electrical is complete now.  I got the GPS installed and wired and that was the last remaining piece to the electrical.


Here is a picture from the inside of Destiny looking out.  I did not put the new cushions in place for the picture and I noticed there is a cable for the antenna I forgot to tie up when I was working in that area but you can get the general idea.


Also I stepped the mast again this weekend this time with the new shrouds and with the furler.  This allowed me to work out all of the issues associated with the furler and a few other items.


So here is the countdown items still remaining before splash day arrives.


1.) Now that the mast is standing I can get the sail maker back here to measure one more thing he wanted to check on before they made up the working jib.  He already has the new main and the genoa done and will bring them when he comes to take this last dimension.


2.) My wife is going to make a full cover for Destiny and now that the mast is up she can measure for that.  Also When the mainsail gets here she will check the old sail cover to see how it fits and use it as a pattern for the new one she is making.


3.) When the mast can come back down it is off to the marina to take her off the trailer so I can install the new rudder, prop shaft, and prop.  And while  I am there I will set her on blocks and I have a guy who will do the barrier coat and bottom job for me.


4.) When she comes back from the marina it will be time to load gear and head to the water for her big splash.  I can almost feel her sailing through the water now...................

Oh Man!  I have drawn up about 10 takes on your interior bulkheads.  I could never get them right as I had designed them with some depth... rather than your far cleaner and brilliantly simple veneer.  They look beautiful and I am stealing your design next winter.  Get ready for questions... in a year.  Beautiful work Jerry!

"Mother, Mother Ocean.  I have heard your call.  Wanted to sail upon your waters since I was three feet tall."  Countdown!  I can hear your bow plying the Gulf!

Bisquit wants to be like Destiny when she grows up. You really do beautiful work.
Phil

Phil


Here's hoping Bisquit does not take as long to grow up as Destiny did.  I built my own home in half the time it took me to rebuild from the ground up Destiny.  But I did not hire any of it out except the sails and soon I will pay someone to do the bottom job. The rest was evenings and weekends when ever I could spare the time or muster this old body to get out there and work.  Your louver looked pretty good.  And I picked up on the dado's in your table saw out feed table how you drilled holes at the end of the dado to let sawdust drop through.  When I saw that I thought ingenious!  Unfortunately it would not work for mine because I have a shelf below the top where I store power hand tools.  


Hopefully you will not even need to do a lot of the things I did like getting rid of the compression post and building a new rudder.  But I look forward to watching your progress.  And thanks again for saving another commander.

Thanks for the encouragement. I'm hoping to move Bisquit along quickly but know it will take longer than planned. Twice as long as twice as much - isn't that the rule of thumb? I figure as long as I have unrealistic expectations it shouldn't take too long. I have the advantage of working in a boat yard so I can sneak out in the afternoon and after work and put a few hours in. I already have finished reconditioning almost all of the exterior wood (hatch boards, entry trim, combings, handrails etc...) and will start building varnish between glass projects. I plan to start re-coring this week. I see how you did your deck layout. I'm going to have to map mine out soon as I plan to replace the balsa with G10 where hardware is located. Is there a discussion about deck layout pros and cons on the site? I have lots of questions for you.

When it comes to deck layout there are lots of bits an pieces here and there but I do not know of a specific thread dedicated to it here.  And a lot of how you lay your deck out should in my opinion be geared to how you like things to work when you are sailing your boat.  For example Mike who sails Commander 227 prefers his halyards led aft to the cockpit.  Me on the other hand I find especially when trying to reef that I am bouncing back and forth between the cockpit and the mast far too much.  So I want everything all in one place where I can do a complete job and then head back to the cockpit and go back to sailing.  Neither is wrong it is just personnel preference.  I have a friend who is older than me and sails an ensign and he sits in one spot in his cockpit whenever he is sailing so everything is led to that spot.  Bottom line is there are a lot of things that work but knowing how you like things to be is what really makes your sailing more enjoyable.


Now that being said, I should tell you I feel like with my deck layout I did one thing less than perfect for my way of sailing.  The jib track next to the cabin is not long enough going forward.  With our lower shrouds the forward one can interfere with the sheet when running down wind.  So if you chose to follow that jib track placement make the track go far enough forward to have a clear path for the sheet when running down wind.  I chose to put the track down there because I used up most of the cabin top with my long handrails.  I have no life lines and wanted more place to hold onto when going forward.

Quote from: Bisquit;27082Is there a discussion about deck layout pros and cons on the site? .

Searching on the subject (jib track, etc) should bring up a number of solutions.  Jib track locations depend on the size of the headsail.  For deck sweeper jibs, the track is inside the shrouds near the large windows.  For a 120, the track would be next to or on the rail from behind the shrouds toward the aft.  A 150's track would be further back.  You can see these placements on A-100, A-76 and several other SF Bay yachts where the winter winds are zilch and a calm summer day is about 25 kts. :cool:

My wife bless her good heart is only a fair weather sailor but she has still been a huge help in making Destiny what she has become.  She made Destiny's new V-berth cushions, her new cockpit cushions, she is making the curtains for the port lights, she made trapazoid cushions to lean back against when sitting below she is making the new sail cover, and today she spent the day making a pattern for the new boat cover to help protect Destiny's bright work from Florida's sun.  She used plastic sheeting to create a pattern that she will use to layout and make the sunbrella cover.  She was able to see through the plastic to mark all of the areas that would require reinforcements or access to cleats etc.

So today Destiny went to the marina where they lifted her off the trailer and held her in the air so I could install the rudder.  Then they set her down on the ground and blocked her up for the bottom job.  Hopefully that will get done sometime this week provided the guy who is doing it can get two days of dry weather in a row.


There will be 4 coats of barrier coat and then 4 coats of Coppercoat going on her.  


I was very pleased to see how well the new rudder fit when I installed it.  There was no way to test fit that along the way because I don't have a travel lift in my back yard.  But the way it went together you would almost think it was made just for her! :-)


Installed the prop and prop shaft and stuffed the stuffing box today so for the first time in a very long time she is water tight again.


The only casualty today was on the way to the marina one of the brand new turnbuckles jiggled off right in the middle of a very busy intersection.  The kind of intersection where you are literally taking your life into your hands if you try to retrieve something there.  So I will be buying a new one and a second as a spare.


The sail maker was here last week and took his final dimension for the working jib.  He brought me the new main and genoa.  They look great I hope they work as great as they look.


So next weekend she comes home (hopefully) for all of the last minute things that still need doing and then she is loaded with gear to head to the water.  Unfortunately the weekend after next I have to go to a niece's wedding in Wisc. so she will not launch then.  And my wife is going to stay up there for an extra week to visit childhood friends so she will probably not get launched the following weekend either because she really wants to be there for the splash.  And as much help as she has been I cannot deny her that.


But we are rally really close now!!!!!!!!!!

Please sir,  Give us all you can on the application of this system.
I've read of some sticking problems.
So has CopperCoat, but their answers were not convincing.

A product that promises 10 years in salt water (and indications of many bottoms going twice that)
is worthy of discussion.
Tips on getting it on would be great!  
Promises come with the territory.

Love that hand rail!

ebb


The game plan is to apply the 4 coats of barrier coat as close together as possible (as soon as the previous coat is cured enough to apply another) and then follow up right away with the Coppercoat.  We may be able to apply a coat of Coppercoat and by the time we get all the way around the boat the just applied coat will likely be cured enough at our starting point to follow up immediately with the next and so on.  


Where the jack stands are we will paint the barrier coat as close as we can and the Coppercoat will be stepped back at least 6" all the way around.  Then once the surface has cured enough to safely relocate the jack stands we will sand the edges of both finishes and do the same process all over again where the jack stands were previously.


As I understand it there are two critical things you need to do.  First constantly mix the Coppercoat.  The copper settles out very quickly so you have to mix, mix, mix as you apply.


Second you cannot allow the Coppercoat to get wet before it is completely cured.  And that is very important.  


So that is the pregame lineup we will have to see how the ball game actually goes.

That's pre-game...thanks.
Going to have look where your dewpoint is... if you are between coats over night.
Maybe just draping with Ty-vec or plastic film will keep it off your work!

No, I wonder if it's little things like that...  that cause the mishaps people complain about...
Epoxy amine blush is another
....very high humidity...
Making sure we're well within the recoat limit, especially in high temps.

Never thought dust would be a problem with epoxy...
but maybe if your dust comes off a highway...black and sticky...  like where Littlegull is sitting...

What are you using for a barrier coat?

Interlux barrier coat.  I used it before with good results.

We have had very good results with it as well. We have been using it for many years. Last year we started using it instead of high build primer for Awl Grip paint jobs. We still prime with 545 before the topcoat but the 2000 is a good base. It works for priming masts too.

Quote from: Bisquit;27097We have had very good results with it as well. We have been using it for many years. Last year we started using it instead of high build primer for Awl Grip paint jobs. We still prime with 545 before the topcoat but the 2000 is a good base. It works for priming masts too.

That's interesting.

Isn't this how it goes?
First, a barrier coat, just that: a very good, fairly thin 2 to 1 epoxy
--that you put on the hull after you think you completed all repairs.
It doesn't need pigment to do that job.  It's a juicy seal coat for old polyester.
Imco it should be structural,  not just a coating.
A laminating epoxy 'seal coat' would also fill the pores of brown fairing epoxy with the hull.

{When I did the bottom of A338 I added, I think, one  coating of NSP120 PotableWater
EpoxyCoating ((WaterGard300 Solvent-FreeEpoxyPaint)) -- white epoxy,  as an imitation
gel coat   -- just in case bottom ever has to be sanded back in the future,  the white appears
and says,  enough now!} Bonus barrier coat is  a 'tank' coating from epoxyproducts.com/  

Next coat, if needed,  are epoxy filler coats, called high build
because they have more calcium carbonate in them, which will be mostly sanded off.
This is a sanding prep coat,  its only job.  Its only job is to be backing for a mirror surface.
Before we rolled this white high build coat on,  we used brown epoxy fairing compound
for major divits and hollows -- and endlessly faired the hull, deck or cabin before  high build.  

There are even more steps here to get Awlgrip ready,  including a light color wash coat,
to see what was missed,  and maybe one or more final high build patch coats and sanding...  
if there still remain minor imperfections, pin holes, broken bubbles,  fill them with white
3M painter's putty -- and with 320 or 400 rub 99% of it off.
None of this preceding stuff has to be any part of : The $$$ !@#$ Awlgrip Product System.

THEN the tie coat goes on, which IS part of the Awlgrip or LPU sequence.  'Their' epoxy coat.
It fills the pores of fillers and grabs the sanded surface.  It's a very thin coating.
Can't touch the boat anymore, or get dew on it --until it's sprayed.

This would also work as prep for modern polyester gel coat.   Using 'their' recommended
epoxy tie coat.

I'm no frikkin expert on this stuff  -- expect to be countered -- that's what this is all about !

All valid techniques. I have used the IP 2000 instead of the Awl Grip High Build Primer. This way you can combine the barrier coat and the high build steps. It is cheaper, sands well and fills pin holes. You still have to compete all repairs and fair the surface before you apply the 2000. After you sand the 2000 if you still have any pin holes or swirl marks you can thicken the 2000 with Colloidal Silica (Gougeon 406) and apply with a spreader. You can't expect to fair with a finish.  Here is a Santa Cruz 70 that is currently in our shop primed with 2000. In the second picture you can see a section that was filled with thickened 2000. The owner sent his boat manager to help sand the 2000 and he edged the DA and we had to redo the entire area he sanded with the thickend 2000.

Looks like we finally got a weather window for a couple of dry days to occur in a row.  So today the first 3 coats of barrier coat went on.  In the morning the final barrier coat and then the Copper coat will go on.  She already has a significantly improved appearance just covering up the epoxy fairing work.

That is one beautiful boat.

Quote from: Bisquit;27113That is one beautiful boat.

But first like Destiny she has to get really ugly looking before her beauty can emerge.


I'm thinking of adding a cove stripe something like this (except a color that matches the waterline stripe better).  What do you think?

I'm not sure. The cove stripe looks great but the boat looks really nice without it too. It is a toss up.

Quote from: Bisquit;27115I'm not sure. The cove stripe looks great but the boat looks really nice without it too. It is a toss up.

I just came back from checking on her.  I think the cove stripe if I do it at all needs to be a pinstripe.  Something subtle not so bold.  Something more like this.

To me this is eye candy!

I. Am. Dumbstruck!  So beautiful Jerry.  You are one badass Dude!

Thanks Kyle.  She really has come together nicely.  And the best part is she is ONLY A COUPLE OF WEEKS FROM SPLASHING!  Man I can really taste it now.

I took the time to upgrade the trailer and the tongue extension.  When I bought the trailer from a company in Georgia (Sail Trailers) I ordered an extension for the tongue so it would be easier to keep the tow vehicle out of the salt water when launching and retrieving.  It was not until I got back home with everything before I noticed they had set the extension up with a 2" ball and coupler.  Since the boat takes a 2-5/16" ball and coupler that was not going to work.  I called them several times and they promised to send me the correct parts but they never showed and they quit taking my calls or returning them.  


So I ordered the parts from Trailer parts super store online and today I installed them all.  I moved the coupler from the trailer to the extension since I'm not overly fond of the way it worked and put the new coupler on the trailer.  Then I added a new heavy duty jack to the trailer because the original was already starting to fail.  I left the old one on the trailer because at the marina when they lift my boat off the trailer we just roll the trailer out from under the boat and the new jack does not have wheels on the bottom.


So now the trailer functions better and the extension actually functions!

And we're all watching - I'll bet she's excited too!  :)

She is Mike!  I good friend of mine likes to say "boats and sailors rot at the dock" and after a total rejuvenation like Destiny just went through neither her nor I have any interest in "rotting at the dock". :-)

So exited for you Jerry! She is beautiful. Have you booked the photographer with chase boat and drone for the  to document her first sail? We are expecting no less.

A masterful rebirth of a beautiful little ship.

You show us how to do it in style -- and with incredible craftsmanship.

Now, what's it to be?  ...a bottle of champagne across her bow?  A naming ceremony to
appease the frowning gods?
Sorry to have peppered, or splattered,  your thread here (which I will erase any of it, just
let me know!} ...but I can't resist another stolen bit of advise....

Score the bottle with a glass cutter,  so it breaks easy -- before you dent your baby's bow.
................................................................................................................................
I know you have the copywrite on your motto
"A man can succeed at almost anything for which he has unlimited enthusiam"

Read it with each of your posts,  and take it to heart,  every time.
Brings to mind one of the great poems we have in inglish  (blessedly short!):
Yeat's  Sailing To Byzantium,  

Which is about another sort of 'sailing', of course..  
But it is about big launchings in life
..."to sing of what is past,  or passing, or to come."
................................................................................................................................

Big luck for you and Destiny!
May all yer groundings be soft,
and fair winds sing in the sails aloft.
CHEERS:D

Quote from: Commander227;27130So exited for you Jerry! She is beautiful. Have you booked the photographer with chase boat and drone for the  to document her first sail? We are expecting no less.

I have not booked them yet Mike but I have a good friend who lives on the lake I will initially put her in who should be able to get some sailing pics for all of us.  I will get in touch with him and see if we can make that happen.  He sails an Ensign and has an old wood motor boat and an airplane (a Lake seaplane) so he should be able to help me out with one or all three methods!

ebb


Thank you for your kind words.  Actually I had told the admiral no breaking of champagne on her bow because I did not want to damage her after all this hard work.  So we will probably skip that part.  Plus I don't want glass getting into trailer tires of mine or someone else either.  


I am lucky living in Florida where most groundings are soft so that is a really good thing.  Destiny had plenty of hard groundings with the previous owner.  I think she will appreciate me and Florida.


And I am really looking forward to fair winds singing in the sails aloft.  That is the music I most enjoy when I am sailing.

When we built our house.  My wife and I were both working full time (her 50 hours a week and I was working 60 hours a week) and we still spent 40 to 50 hours a week building our house.  It took us 2 years to get to a point where we could move in but we were not done.  We did not have doors on our cabinets, there was a large section of ceramic tile that was not laid yet and a lo of little things still needed doing.  but we were so tired after 2 years of doing nothing but working every hour we were awake that we did not care.  We moved in an slowly finished the remaining items.


My plan is to splash Destiny this coming weekend and while there are a lot of things trying to interfere with that plan I am really hoping to pull it off.  If I do there are several small things that are not done but I have been waiting long enough and I really don't care if she is not 100%.  She will get finished just like our house did but I will enjoy sailing her before she is 100% complete.


As you will see in this first picture the shelves above the v-berth have not been finished.  My goal was to make face frames and hinged doors with cane inserts for ventilation but too many other projects pushed their way to the front of the line.  I've started making fiddles for them but only one is completed and the other is only started.   But it will not stop me from sailing her so it can get finished at a later date.


My wife has a custom window treatment business and lately she has been doing a quite a few marine related projects for me and my friends.  She made trapezoid shaped cushions for Destiny that allow us to sit on the quarter berths and lean back against them.  They work really well as you can see in the pictures below.

Jerry, I wish I lived close by - I'd be down there helping you with this final push!! I hope you can pick up on all the positive mojo vibes being sent your way...

Quote from: mbd;27149Jerry, I wish I lived close by - I'd be down there helping you with this final push!! I hope you can pick up on all the positive mojo vibes being sent your way...

Mike thanks positive mojo vibes are seriously appreciated.

I like the strong back. I may need to add one to my wish list. I hope the next picture I see of this fine yacht she is under sail.

Quote from: Bisquit;27157I like the strong back. I may need to add one to my wish list. I hope the next picture I see of this fine yacht she is under sail.

Phil


You are right the next picture will be of Destiny sailing.  But if you are serious about a strong back for Bisquit there is a copy of the design the structural engineer did for me on Destiny's post # 126 here.


http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?1972-Commander-147/page9

Thanks. I will check it out.

Friday morning we headed to Lake Harris to launch Destiny.  The drive was a long hour getting there but it was none eventful (read that as great).  


Stepping the mast and preparing to launch was a long drawn out process that took 2-1/2 to 3 hours to complete.  Something tells me I will do this process only when I have to and avoid moving the boat in and out of the water as much as I can.  While I was setting her up I had a couple of people drive up to her and tell me how she was a beautiful boat.  One was a sailor that had to take pictures to send to his buddy.


After she was ready I backed her up to the ramp to just before the point where the ramp started sloping down significantly.  We blocked the tires and removed the coupler from the truck so we could put the tongue extension in place.  After that was in place I started backing her down again when I heard STOP! from Tony who was helping me launch her.  He said I needed to see what was happening.  So I put it in park and climbed out to see the extension had twisted to a 45 degree angle and only one of the tires was on the ground and it was on its side.  Seems the torque of pivoting does not do well with the very short axle on the extension.  So we once again blocked the tires and jacked up the front of the trailer so we could get the extension sitting on both wheels again.  After that we just backed perfectly straight back and all went well.


The entire time we were setting her up to go into the water I was concerned that we might not have enough depth to get her off the trailer.  Turns out we did but not by a large margin.  It will be real interesting to see how well we are able to float her back onto the trailer.


So we finally floated free and I kicked the electric aux. into reverse and drifted back enough to pull over to a side dock where we could finish rigging before going off sailing.  Where we parked her temporarily the wind was blowing her towards the dock.  So when it was time to leave we walked her back around the corner of the dock and pointed the bow into the wind.  We pushed off from the dock and I put the throttle into forward and nothing happened!  So now the wind is blowing us up  the ramp and the elec. drive does not want to go forward.  I shifted the throttle into reverse and that worked but only put us headed into the ramp even faster.  So I switched it back into forward and finally she decided go forward and we were off.  I'm not sure what caused the issue but I will be having a talk with the folks at Electric Yacht come tomorrow morning about it.


We headed out of the lagoon that the ramp is located in and hauled up the main and started sailing.  Winds were light so my wife took the tiller and I went forward to finish rigging the furler so I could hoist a head sail.  got that working and we hosted the jib.  That doubled our speed. Picture #1 below is shortly after the jib went up. But the marina we were headed to from the ramp was an 8 mile as the crow flies distance away.  And the wind was coming from the direction we needed to go.  And after a while of tacking back and forth to head upwind some very dark storm clouds started building on shore.  We watched them for a while and then the calm before the storm hit us.  The wind died completely and the water was glass smooth.  So we dropped sails and started motoring towards the marina.  The longer we motored the closer the storms got.  So we kicked her into high gear and headed as fast as we could for the marina.  The storms kept getting closer and closer and we were watching heavy rain on the water behind us.  The wind started  gusting well into the 30MPH range and we were being blown bare poles towards the marina as fast as we could motor.  We would run up the 3' rolling waves the wind had whipped up and surf down the other side.  The second picture below is before we got into the worst of it.  We tied up to the dock just as the rain caught up to us.  We were literally tying up as it hit us.


Afterwards we had to drive back to the ramp to collet the tow vehicle and the trailer.  As we were driving there we saw emergency vehicles all over the place.  We saw a roof that had been blown off and a 4' diameter oak tree that had been blown down onto someone's house.  When we got back to the ramp we had just left the third picture is what it looked like.  We think it is possible a tornado may have come through the area.


So while our launch day was anything but boring at least for us all ended well and we have been back out sailing the last two days.  Now I just need a good 20 Knot wind day to put here through her paces.

Cheers Jerry! Destiny look fantastic out on the water. Well done! Looking forward to all the "under sail" pics.  :)

Re pic #2 - a well deserved seat at the helm!  Congrats Jerry!

She looks great under sail. Fantastic job.

Congratulations Jerry! Good job pushing thru! So many of these big projects never are seen to completion.
Now get out and sail often.
Mike
C227

Well, first chance back from Maine and Destiny and I spent time on the water together again this weekend.

How wonderful for you BOTH.

There is a young man named Jeff here on SFBay...

also together with his Ariel....l

on their way to the Marquesas!

Congratulations ALL.

WOW, Jerry!  Destiny looks beautiful...great job and enjoy her!

Fritz
C-3

Quote from: Fritz;27221WOW, Jerry!  Destiny looks beautiful...great job and enjoy her!

Fritz
C-3[/QUOTE)


Thanks Fritz

But I thought I would let you all know that Destiny is really enjoying her life back on the water again.  The restoration projects do finally end and the result is what I have been enjoying for the last 6 months.


Yesterday one of my best friends and I took Destiny for a very fun ride in winds between 10 and 15 MPH.  By the end of the day we had put 37 miles under her keel.  We had the 140 genoa up with a single reef in the main and she handled the winds perfectly.  She likes to sail with the rail about 6" from the water and only occasionally did she dip her rail in the water for a short time and then she popped right back up to where she likes to sail.


You know after 5 years of restoration work all I can do is smile and say YES! it was really worth it when we are out sailing.


Here are a couple of short video clips of our day yesterday.


https://www.dropbox.com/s/7dfehckz4y0y38p/DSCF1673.AVI?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/7dfehckz4y0y38p/DSCF1673.AVI?dl=0)


https://www.dropbox.com/s/gx4hrjsdk94nokg/DSCF1674.AVI?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/gx4hrjsdk94nokg/DSCF1674.AVI?dl=0)

Awesome Jerry!!
I'm happy you're enjoying her.
Mike C227

Guys I'm not sure why God has blessed me with the woman he did to spend my life with but it was a huge blessing.  Not only did she not fight me in any way during the restoration of C147 Destiny but she was an active participant.  


And now she surprised me with the best Christmas present I could ever hope to receive.  She spent over a year creating a book about Destiny's restoration and first year of sailing after we splashed her.  I am humbled by her love for me and so thankful to be married to her.  THANK YOU LORRAINE!!!


Here is a glimpse of what she created for me.............

That is fantastic Jerry! What an excellent and permanent way to remember the super-human effort that went into getting your beauty sailing again!  Well done!!

That is so great!
Thanks for sharing that, enjoy the rest of our he holidays.
Mike

You are an integral commander of this web site.
You are an inspiration to us all.

Please visit often.  A new shelf.  A new port.
A new wrinkle.  Keep DESTINY in our hearts!

Would love to see a page by page of LORRAINE"S
tribute to Commander 147 and her skipper....

So much of what I did during Destiny's restoration was documented here and so much of what is now in the book she created for me she was able to get from here.  without this forum she would not have even been able to accomplish what she did.


She created the book on a website called Shutterfly.  She is going to see if she can send me the link to the book so I can post it here so ebb and anyone else interested can see the entire thing.  


The second and third pages have a play on words that requires a bit of background to understand.  My previous boat was a Precision 18 which I named "Sanity" because getting out on her and away from the office helped to restore my sanity.  And Destiny when I bought her was called Daydream.  You can see how she used that in the second and third pages below.

So this link should work to get you to the book but it is not real clear on how to do it so....


When you click on the link it will take you to a page with 3 pictures across the top.  Just below that you will see the word "welcome" and just below that you will see the words "recent activity".  In the recent activity area you can see a small icon which is a picture of the front cover of the book.  Click on the picture of the book and then when that page opens you will see to the left the words "full screen".  Click on the words full screen and if your monitor is large enough you should be able to read the text in the book as you go through it.


https://destinysailing.shutterfly.com

Hi everyone


Well sadly health issues forced me to sell Destiny but by the grace of God I was able to sell her to my best friend Tim Johnson who is building a summer home in Maine where he will relocate Destiny so he can sail her there during the summer.  He plans to become a snow bird and live in Maine in the summer and Punta Gorda Florida for the rest of the year where he has a Tartan 3000 sailboat on a canal in his back yard.  The good news since he is my best friend I will still be spending time in Maine with him sailing on Destiny.  



Tim and I sail together as often as possible and have both sailed in Maine together on charter boats.  We plan to do that again this Sept. before the house is built and Destiny is relocated.


Tim has seen several Commanders in Maine on a trip he took up there in the last couple of weeks and would like to see if the owners of those boats are on this forum so he can get to know you and possible sail with you.  



Tim will be on this forum as soon as Bill gets him manually entered so he can log in.  So if you own a Commander and sail in Maine please let him know.

DESTINY

These vessels we pour so much talent and love into
are testament to the company we keep.  Two words
cheek by jowl in my large print OxfordDictionary,
share space together altho their ancestries are far
apart.

Chalet is a small cabin or hut in a holiday camp.
Chalice, a large goblet.  There should always be more
goblets in our lives.

Of course C147 (and A338) are definitely small cabins,
huts with wings we've lavished so much time and money
and  care upon.  It's THAT we celebrate HERE and find
communion,  these supposedly inanimate vessels we
have filled with life and dreams.  Our lives and dreams.

To stretch the metaphor a bit more, we raise the
goblet once more:  to Jerry and Tim, to Lorraine,  Mike,
Fritz, Kyle and dozens of other geniuses, dreamers
who have shared our love for these good little ships,
chalices and chalets of marvelous humanity..

Goblets and maritime huts, Commanders and Ariels..
AND here's to Bill.  Where would we be without you??

All hail the Alberg fleet!  And another round to DESTINY.

Here Here!  well said Ebb.  



I'm just happy all of the money I invested n Destiny that I knew full well would not be recovered when I sold her went to my best friend.  Now he can enjoy the fruits of something that was near and dear to me.  And still is...............

Cannot think of a better way for Destiny to pass into the hands of another skipper, than it to be those of a best friend!

Condolences and congrats, concurrently, Capt Carpenter!

Thanks Kurt

Hi, this is Tim.  I am the new owner of Commander 147 "Destiny" and will be sailing her in the Brunswick, ME area.  That will not happen until next season, once we get our house built up there.  I would love to meet up with other owners along the Maine coast to share stories and adventures.  I will be chartering a boat out of Bass Harbor from September 21-28, and will be in Rockland and Castine during the week.  Jerry will be there too.  If anybody is nearby and has an interest, it would be great to touch base.

Quote from: Commander 147;25853Forward one is held in with wing nuts and the back one where I should not need to access is just screwed in.

Has anyone kept the measurements for these dividers? I'd love to make them for my Commander (152 -- Friendship). I can, of course, measure, but it is awkward. If anyone has the measurements I would really appreciate them. I figure I can make one out of peg board.

Here is the picture: http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=8921&stc=1&d=1371602193

thanks, Mike