I'm in need of a stern rail for a number of reasons. We have a bow pulpit, no life lines, and no stern rail. I'll be using it to mount a ring bouy (maybe a LifeSling 2) a PVC pipe propane container, etc.
I want it to "fit" the Commander's lines. Any suggestions toward saving money.
David Bogle
if you would like, i can send drawings and photos of the original stern rails for a commander. they are not only good looking but fairly easy to have made.(there are only 2 bends to make)
David:
The Commander for sale in Soundings has a simple stern rail. You can view the photos at soundingsonline.com, then search for Commander in the "keyword" space.
Jean, That's a very generous offer and making my own always sounds attractive to me. I'll try to find your e-mail to send you my info. Sorry, I did not check this thread for a while.
David
bogle@bway.net
Is the rail for the Ariel the same as the Commander's ? I don't have one and want one too .
Actually it is called a 'pushpit' , the one on the bow being the 'pulpit ' , just put my pulpit back on today .
Mike, they must be the same because the boats are the same back there.
I've sent an e-mail to KatoMarine.com (where s. Airing had his made) requesting a quote. Hope they still have the measurements.... I'll post if I hear back from them.
Kato Marine was found, contacted, and pressed for a price quote. They said about $1600 would buy it today, and that they would need the boat (mine) to use to tack the base brackets. They could not come to New York, and I can't go to them..
I did get a quote from Tops in Quality, however, for around $250 for non-welded, and $500 for welded rail connections (bases are all non-welded.) They can put some camber in the transom rail like on yours, S.Airing. That is a nice touch.
Next year, or later in the season I will revisit this improvement.
I am trying to install a bow pulpit (original had been removed) on my Ariel (#394, 1967). Recently, one of the members was working with Tops in Quality and some dimensions were available. When I checked those dimensions on my boat, they seemed close, but not exact. Does anyone if those dimensions worked successfully, have dimensions that have proven successful, or have manufacturer's data available?
Also, I am considering installing a stern rail, and, again am looking for manufacturer's data or someone's dimensions that have worked successfully (on an outboard version). Thanks.
Fred,
Most good canvas shops that make dodgers can make it for you . It need not follow a measurement , just the lines of the boat . The stern pushpit is easy , you can do it with a tubing bender yourself .
Make a practice piece out of electrical conduit first .
Fill the stainless with playsand before you bend it ( keeps it from kinking ) and fittings should be slid on before bends are made , they wont go around the turn . Get it like you like it , mark the lineup of the fitting with a sharpie marker & take it to the welder to make permanent .
Taint brain surgery .
otherwise be ready to shell out $300 for each .
The deck hardware drawing in the manual has the desinger's foot locations for the bow pulpit and stern rail.
My experience getting a bow pulpit was not easy, and the dimensions had to be incredibly precise. The major problem related to the angle of the deck. The plates that hold the pulpit on the deck are precisely angled for the tubing. The tolerances are incredibly tight. I had to send mine back once and even then it became a press fit.
The second thing about the tubing is that it is stainless thick wall. That, as I understand it, is not an easy job and requires some specialized gear (the mfgs of the pulpits will explain that better than I can).
My suggestion is that if you elect to go to Tops In Quality, you mention my name. They made mine last year.
I don't like the design (The vertical rails are direct backward going up - but that might have been necessary) - but if you get my design, you will have a starting point.
I can also send you my layout and design if it helps. My objective was to make sure that the pulpit would withstand a) the weight of someone falling/being violently pushed against it, such as in a storm, and have it be rigid and not give way. Safety to me was paramount. Secondly, I knew that sooner or later it would become adversely involved in a landing, and I didn't want it bent or to break the deck structure.
Anybody have experience with bending 1" OD stainless tubing (like for handrails)?
I am trying to not have to buy an expensive instustrial size (and price) bender.
Alternatively, anybody selling a stern-rail for the Ariel?
If you find a source for a ready made stern rail, please let me know.
Bending stainless without the right (and expensive) tools is an iffy proposition at best. Might be worth checking with your nearest trade/technical/vocational college to see if they have the technology to do it as a project in their metal shop.
Tom
I'll be doing the same. One idea I've had to make things simpler will be to bend two "U"s, mount them along the toe rail port and starboard, and connect them across the back with slide-over-the-tubing mechanical connectors.
Did you check at a Rent Mart to see if they had a tube bender you could get for a few days without buying one? I've been meaning to call on that...
I figure I'll ruin some before I start getting it right. :) One thing I've seen suggested is to fill the tubing with packed sand before bending - this is supposed to prevent the tube from collapsing.
If the wall thickness is 0.10 or greater it can be a real bear to deal with on anything but an actual bender. The thinner walled tubing, which is still unbelievably stiff, can be bent on a conduit bender. Better yet, if you really have to do it yourself, is to build a simple bending jig so you'll have some control over the angles and radii. Once upon a time I had a plan for one that I found in a marine fabricator catalog. If I can find them I'll post 'em.
Sometimes it really is cheaper to the professionals to do it. Or the pre-professionals a.k.a. Vo-Tech students.
Well, for those so inclined, there are places who manufacture them:
Tops-In-Quality in Michigan:
~$500 plus shipping
http://www.topsinquality.com/
Svenson's in California
http://www.svendsens.com/metalworks/products.html
And I have quotes from Two folks in Annapolis, one for $1500, one for $2200.
Seeing no quick and dirty solutions nearby...I am exploring doing it my self.
Like epiphany I plan on riding the learning curve a while til I get the hang of it.
Luckily, a 12' section from West Marine is only $60......So I can afford screw it up a few times before I am in the hole (compared to my other options).
And the wall thickness is only 0.049" (49mils)...so it shouldn't be impossible to bend....it just needs more skill than braun.
I am thinking of using some MDF cut into a form, and then with the edge routed to conform to the roundness of the tube. And I, too have heard of the trick of filling it with sand, which I plan to do.
If anybody in the peanut gallery has ideas/pointers/pitfalls, I welcome them.
Here are two pics of what I am considering:
One has four fittings total.
The other has only two fittngs,with two additional bends.
I haven't decided which. I am thinking that if I am proficient enough to make the gentle curve along the back of the boat, and the two bends to point the top rail forward, the two more bends to point it toward the deck should be no problem. except that they are out of plane, and gosh you would hate to screw that up after getting the rest of it just right
I await comments......
Probably throwing a wrench in here, and I see that Svendsen's does NOT do this - but Theis, maybe it was, pointed out on an old thread that his sternrail BOWED UP across the stern, parelleling the taffrail. Instead of flat. It did look great! Class!
I have helped out in a boat canvas shop . We had a cool bender mounted on the wall, you rolled the tubing thru it in several passes while tightening the curve. Pack it with sand and don't forget to put the fittings on before you bend it . I have bent them with conduit benders , takes practice to get right . After you get it all together , get it welded .
On my 'to do' list is a vist to the fabricator.
I like the do it yourself approach, but plan to at least price what I want before I launch into it.
I have been looking at a few pictures here, and there are some different designs.
First, we have all admired Geoff's Uhuru;
A more simple, elegant approach was taken on Houdini's stern;
And then there is Sailor Tom2's 'Ariel' which is the more basic design that has been reinforced for the wind vane.
I really like all three, and appreciate the benefits each offers.
I like the simplicity of the more 'uncluttered' look, and the lesser weight penalty it brings but also want a sturdy place to mount a solar panel.... and my grill.... (maybe even my 2hp dink motor....). :eek:
I am thinking about adding a pushpit on Haabet (#133). Does it have to be custom made? I saw a couple of pre-fab models in the Defender Marine catalog. If any of you have had a pushpit fabricated, what were the specs you used? Were there any problems?
The Deck Layout drawing in the manual shows where Pearson placed the lag bases for the stern rail.
I'm bending one next week! Heavy wall 1" stainless tube .
I gave up the idea of bending one myself after doing the math and figuring out the parts and pieces cost....and my labor.
I went with Tops In Quality. Greg worked with me to make it come out right, and in the end it Fit like a Glove!
I will post a picture when I get chance.
If you are interested, I can try to find the measurements I sent them.
Math, we don't use no stinking math. Just put it in the bender and match the pattern!
I really wanted to go with TIQ. They are the real deal, but, with the real price tag too. Besides, it always more fun to spend twice as much to do something yourself. If for nothing else, just to say you did it yourself.
Mike, we demand pictures. You're holding out on us. Let's see the bender, let's see the pattern, and let's see the tubing. What's 'heavy wall'?
I will document the entire event . Heavy wall ss tube has a wall that is twice as thick as regular . Pick up a 24' section and you know right off if it is regular or heavy wall. that is all we use for dodger & bimini frames ( I just started working again with my wife's old company ) and we make boat interiors and all outside canvas products . Be sure to use 1" tube also.
I'll be following this thread with interest. I'll be in the market for a pushpit myself soon!
I second that, Mike. I'm very interested in making a pushpit too. Bring on da pics!!!
Bill: What page is that drawing on :confused: ? I see a very miniaturized drawing on page 35. Is that the one you are referring to?
Quote from: walbertsBill: What page is that drawing on :confused: ? I see a very miniaturized drawing on page 35. Is that the one you are referring to?
See page 148, it's larger :) Unfortunately, I miss spoke. The drawing has the bow pulpit and life line stantion locations, but evidently Pearson did not plan for a stern rail/push pit. :o
I ended doing a custom job on mine. I have not hooked it in. I wanted to make sure that Sprite was safe so I did an overkill job new bow pulpit two
lifelines running to the back and two gates port and starboard. The lifeline posts were shaeffer. I still have the original it was kinda wobbly. They were
chrome on bronze. On mine there was only bronze left. I was worried because
if my cousins kids came on board they could possibly fall off. Alot has changed
since Pearson set up these boats. Safety should be first. The whole back was kinda exposed.
John
If your interested I might be able to get my plans or tracing of the footprint
would that help???? :confused:
John
Thanks for the offer, John. Yes ... If you have the plans it would be a help for sure. Did you have TIQ make it?
Also, to Mike G. I'd be interested in following your fabrication of the pushpit. I was interested in your comment about the heavy walled tubing. That sounds like a good idea. Are you fabricating the stancions for the lifelines too? What about the bases?
I went with Tops in Quality for my bow pulpit and have been very dissatisfied - although once on there is nothing I will do or can do to correct the thing. Stripped screws, bases that did not fit, and ugly. Mine, from about 2001, must have been the first they had ever made for an A/C - are at least it seems that way. The bow pulpit went back to them once or twice before I gave up and just installed it.
The stanchions were sheaffer with duel lifelines the bases are a match as well I think.I have to look up the company it was Ocean Marine or something in New Bedford,MA Popes Island Rd it is exact measurements. The pulpit is exact to the old screw holes. But the Stern had to be made up from scratch. Pearson did not have a plan for the Stern Cockpit or setting up gates they were not available at the time. The manual is forward of the cockpit.
John
John, I hate to be the one to point it out, but you are woefully short on pictures with all the work you're doing on your boat...
Yeah, I didn't wan't to be the one to point that out. But now that it's said-where are they?
Speaking for all left handed people on the forums, we need pictures to fully understand anything :D
Pics, fellas, pics!!! :D
I wanna see Johns boat, and Mikes pushpit! :D:D:D:D
Once, Long ago, in middle earth...
No, Someone here had what I recall as detailed photos of his pushpit. He pointed out that the cross piece had a curve in it. It really added greatly to the art of the piece. Don't know how to ask the SEARCH button....
It seems that it is becoming a lost art (curving tube). Bill mentions how much more expensive it would have been to replicate the graceful original bowsprit. I like the rounded shape much more than a modern 'spiffy' speedo look. It is all subjective, but if I had a restored Ariel, I would try to find someone who could get the feel of the pullpit into the pushpit.
Curved tube is stronger that straight. Don't think I got the moxie to bend my own one-off stuff. If I did have instructions and pics of the process, might consider it. Here is where a dvd taking us thru the process would be incredibly useful.
Professor Mike, I'd like a copy of the video!
Awhile back saw a pushpit array on a 25 footer that cost more than what I paid for 338!!!
Just thought I'd bring this thread back to the top. Mike, did you ever bend that pushpit or are you still planning on making one (or more :D ) Has anyone found other sources?
Nope, I sold the boat .
Was wondering if anyone had a stern pulpit or I guess they call them Push Pits for an Ariel? Any idea where I could order one? Dimensions or measurements of your existing Pushpit would be great...Thanks alot...
Adam
G'mornin Adam,
Often see Tops In Quality mentioned well on the net.
Price, Quality and Quickness. Haven't used them myself.
You'd send them a foot print if they didn't have one,
but I'd guess they do. Height of rail is important, and
how high off the deck the loops/attachments for the lifelines.
Some look better than others. I like the the ones that
follow the taffrail curve, not only out but up.*
Problem would be shipping. Maybe they have a semi-
knockdown version???
(There's a lot of stuff that can get attached to a stern rail besides the lifelines. Depends of course on the use you intend for the boat. Man-over-board pole, life ring, wind vane, get-home-ob, propane tank, ladder, solar panel, stern light, antenna, anchor, etc. Some of these might alter the design. Might need to be flat across, for instance. For sturdiness I think a intermediate rail is needed.)
There have been pictures of Ariel stern rails here on the forum
at least a couple real nice ones
but I have not found them with the search button.
*In near future I'll be able to make some close paper approximations of the two curves, as I'm making a pattern for a wood cap.
Ebb...don't forget the BBQ off the stern rail.If you're out cruisin...ya gotta have the BBQ. Life just ain't the same without one !!
Thanks for the info EBB--
Still looking forward to getting together with you sometime to discuss external chainplates...you are welcome to swing by and see "Che" anytime...I am outfitting the boat for cruising so a Push Pit is indeed key. I will do a bit more research... I May be hauling out over your way in a month or so...Photo Op :) for sure..Would that be two Ariels and a Triton for the Yard? Thanks
Adam
Adam,
I went with Tops In Quality for a stern rail this Summer. When all was said and done, I am very pleased with the outcome. They had 2 other Ariel measurements on file: Keith's (Username: mrgnstrn) and another. (Now they have three.) Keith was kind enough to email his measurements which I used as a rough guide. In the end though, you need to figure out exactly where you want the bases to land and a miriad of other obtuse seeming measurements, and then measure and remeasure.
My Cost:
$539.50 (WSS-1 type) rail,
$ 25.00 (custom curves like Sirocco's)
and $161.96 (&*%@# shipping to Maine!?!?!? :eek:)
Total: $726.46
It is a ways away from being installed...
Hmm. Looks like a "pushupit" to me... :)
A friend of mine was headed down to the 'stricly sail' show in Miami this week, and was planning to hit a few marine salvage places on the way back.
I printed this thread, and a copied a page from the manual that I added some measurements to.
I also printed pictures of A-231's stern rail;(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10014/normal_A231Rail1.jpg)
(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10014/normal_A-231Rail.jpg)
I got a call from him today, and he found a set that sound very much like these.
I look forward to getting them! Thanks to all for the examples. I am sure I would not have thought to ask him to look for a 2 peice rail had I not seen it here first. :D
Good on ya Craig! I would kill for some decent "marine salvage" places in the area...
I have not mounted the stern rail yet, so I do not have any progress updates on that.
The rail is a lot lik ethe one on A-231, however it is from a much larger boat. The height is right, but the section that mounts on the stern is a bit too long on each side (they would not only touch, but overlap in the middle). My plan is to cut the rail where they would touch, and weld the two halves back together to make a standard rail (this will make sense with pictures).
Anyway, a note on the bow rail.
Mine looks just like most of those on the forum, and I assume it is original pearson. The thing I noticed was that while the tube came down to the deck at an angle (60 degrees?) the tube was cut off square.
On mine the bases were secured to the rail with a rivet in a hole on the back (most bases I have seen use a set screw, maybe these did originally and the set screw was replaces somewhere along the line, I can't tell but if so the original threads have been drilled out.)
Anyway, I had noticed that the sharp edge of the ss tube had cracked the fiberglass under the mounting base, as the sharp edge of this tube was slightly proud of the plane of the bottom of the base.
Before I re-mounted them, I removed the rivets and used the dremel to grind the bottom 1/2" off of the sharp 'corner'? of the tube. I think this is probably worth doing on any that are constructed like mine was.
Just thought I would mention it.
Splashed Faith this Saturday. Had a great sail home, and promptly went to work on other projects.
After much measuring and head scratching I cut the two halves of the rail, (the 1" tubing is DEFINATELY thick wall...) and got them lined up where I want them. I have a friend who welds stainless and he is supposed to do the deed on Wednesday. He proposes to Tig them with stainless wire... does anyone know if this is the prefered method of welding 1" stainless tube?
QuoteThe rail is a lot lik ethe one on A-231, however it is from a much larger boat. The height is right, but the section that mounts on the stern is a bit too long on each side (they would not only touch, but overlap in the middle). My plan is to cut the rail where they would touch, and weld the two halves back together to make a standard rail (this will make sense with pictures).
Took a college evening course in welding once.
Any fool can learn how to MIG (except me!)
It takes a professional to TIG -
it's done with a non-melting tungsten electrode and produces those small welds you see on s.s. tube work. It's a more precise tool requiring good equipment, good eyesight, experience and finesse to use.
Good luck!
I wish I had a before picture;
(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10014/PulpitWithOldPeice.jpg)
Here the two halves are cut and dowels are holding them next to each other. They were originally a 2 piece pulpit with a ladder in between (use your imagination to put the two pieces on the right back together). I estimate they must have come from a 45' boat. It is thick walled, 1" tubing. I really like the double rail, and think it will be quite solid when mounted on the boat.
Here it is clamped together with some angle iron for the first tack welds.
The guy did a nice job. I also got him to tack a small peice of stainless into one of the corners (facing aft) to put the stern light on.
(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10014/PulPitClamp.jpg)
I will follow with a picture of it installed on the boat.
looks great, can't wait to see it installed!
How are those mounted? Is that a single bolt on the bottom of each of those legs?
Quote from: mbd;15163How are those mounted? Is that a single bolt on the bottom of each of those legs?
Yes, each of the legs mount with a single 5/16" bolt. I have laid up some fiberglass, and will make mounting pads (above deck) and round backing plates out of epoxy coated plywood below, with large fender washers.
Got the rail mounted yesterday.
Here are a couple of pictures. Sorry they are not great, I got out the camera right before I left for the day and it was getting dark.
(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10014/Smollet_pulpit1.jpg)
I built up the mounts with pads epoxied and faired to the deck;
(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10014/Smollet_Pulpitpad2.jpg)
Here is a close up of the weld;
(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10014/Smollet_pulpitweld1.jpg)
I will try to take more pictures today.
Lookin' Good !!:)
Bravo!
Is that the stern light on the starboard side aft?
Craig,
"A single 5/6" bolt."
Does sound quite strong enough especially in concert with the other legs. Can you tell us what the mount itself is?
Can we assume that you have a slip tube that the pushpit leg goes over? Did you fill that stub tube with epoxy and then bolt it thru the deck? The legs are then held on with set screws?
Like that build up that the leg in one photo shows - NICE JOB!
Where's a good place to buy the mount bases? Seems in the refit/paint we lost one of the angled feet, the standard 60 deg fitting is a bit to steep, and 90 is obviously wrong. I'm thinking I can force a 60 if it came to it.
Thoughts?
Quote from: bill@ariel231;15217Bravo!
Is that the stern light on the starboard side aft?
Yes, it is. I was lucky in finding a piece of 'scrap' stainless in the weld shop, and took a guess at the size of my stern light.
It fit like it was made for it. :D
(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10014/pulpitlight.jpg)
I just spoke with Doug at Tops In Quality about a push-pit for Haabet, Ariel 133. He told me that the footprints of the two designs he has on file are different from each other. That was a surprise to me. Does anyone know why that might be?
Also, he said that I had a choice of one or two rails on the pushpit and either 24 or 28" height. I thought the two rail, 24" model sounded nice. I've seen some pushpits that seemed to high for the design of the Ariel. The two-rail design, I assume (I haven't seen a picture yet) means that there is a second rail half way down. I'm not sure about it, especially since I'm considering the 24" height. But it sounded strong and I figured I could tie the lower unit of the outboard down to it. The difference in cost is about $300. The single rail model cost about $775.
What do you think: One "rail" or two? 24" or 28?" And what about the "foot-print" of the push-pit? Are there differences in the Ariels' stern/lazarette areas that any of you know about, or is this more likely just a differrence in hardware placement on two different boats that made the variation in the two models? Doug said that these were definitely two Ariels.
Any updated comments/opinions on TIQ and the quality of their work?
Bill
Mike (A-414) has a Tops in Quality single rail:
http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showpost.php?p=14004&postcount=49
it appears that various owner's measurements for tube locations are driving the difference in patterns.
cheers,
bill@ariel231
p.s. it looks like A-231 is the odd man out having an open stern rail :rolleyes:
http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showpost.php?p=16801&postcount=113
My 2 cents:
I'm very pleased with how the stern rail turned out. Tops In Quality did a great job.
Aesthetically, I prefer the 24" height - 28" just seems too tall, but that's me. I prefer the "sparseness" of the single rail - I studied every picture I could find of Sirocco's and tried to imitate hers.
Practically, I wish I had a double rail. It's more secure for the younger crew members and the additional rail on the stern makes a good place to store things.
----- edit -----
PS. Just thought of something else Bill, that I'm sure goes without saying, but I'll say it anyways. Of course you'll want to take your own measurements of where you want the feet to land, because as I'm sure we all know, no two boats are the same...
Thanks Mike and Bill for the responses. I appreciate your tact, Mike, in letting me know that no two Ariels are exactly the same. Honestly, I thought they were, with the possible exception of the hardware installed by owners down through the ages. Mea culpa. I will take measurements.
Mike, what wall thickness did you get on the tubing? and what grade of stainless? Did you have to fabricate pads for the push-pit feet?
I'll look for some pictures of Sirocco and see what her push-pit looks like. I remember her as having a nice dodger as well. We're thinking of replacing ours next.
Take a look at this thread;
Bow Pulpit / Stern Rail / Pushpit (http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=121)
Here is a late night photo of what I came up with;
(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10014/Smollet_pulpit1.jpg)
Mounting detail;
(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10014/Smollet_Pulpitpad2.jpg)
You can kind of see it here;
(http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10014/PostCourthouseBay.jpg)
But again, Take a look at this thread (maybe Bill can merge this one into it?);
Bow Pulpit / Stern Rail / Pushpit (http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=121)
Quote from: c_amos;18878Take a look at this thread (maybe Bill can merge this one into it?)
DONE!
Please remember to use the search function before asking questions . . . ;)
Quote from: walberts;18877...what wall thickness did you get on the tubing? and what grade of stainless? Did you have to fabricate pads for the push-pit feet?
Sadly, I never thought to ask, I just ordered it. :o (I can copy and send my measurements, copies of emails, etc. to you if you'd like, just let me know.)
I wanted to fabricate pads for the feet, but quickly ran out of time once things got rolling. When the time comes to revisit painting the decks, I may try to do it then. Craig did a real nice job on his, and A-231 Bill too. Here's another thread on
that subject.
http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=1128
Timely article in March/April GOB about building chainstay (and presumably) pulpit islands by Don Casey. Interesting how to. I personally would have laid down a narrow fillet at the base of the island but who knows maybe Don was faced with a deadline;).
Andrew
Instead of starting a new thread, the words 'tubing' and 'bender' in the search machine lead me here.
More heads are better than one, so who's got the info? Like it says, still looking. Don Casey's This Old Boat has a simple diagram of a bender. I still have not found that back issue of Marine Fabricator with the wall mounted unit. Did find the attached forum thread with a DIY bender plus it has another link embedded in it for a small bender.
http://www.customfighters.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17625
This looks easy enough to build. Even has a partner just for crowning the frames. Sweet!